And This Pope Rocks On

[Stone holm]

Even if you approve of that establishment?

There is little to approve of in the current economic establishment as I see it, but we give the appearance of being firmly in support of it nevertheless. I drove my youngest across the State to meet up with his friends before heading back to school. Was surprised to learn that even his school mates at the engineering college he attends have little respect for our current economic establishment.

[thesometimesaint]

Well to be fair, we have been pretty harsh in our comments about the Catholics over the years, BRM in his early editions of his infamous Momrmon Doctrine was truly harsh. And truth be told, we really do worship a radically different Christ and Heavenly Father than any of the mainline Protestant or Catholic Churches . But I too yearn for us to see us with a Prophet someday who was praised for teaching peace, protesting the economic establishment, seeking justice for the working poor, etc. by the general populace.

 

I don't see us as radically different, but one of a different emphasis. Whether I see US President Abraham Lincoln was greatest thing since sliced bread and someone else sees him as evil incarnate we're still  talking about the same person.

[why me]

Well to be fair, we have been pretty harsh in our comments about the Catholics over the years, BRM in his early editions of his infamous Momrmon Doctrine was truly harsh. And truth be told, we really do worship a radically different Christ and Heavenly Father than any of the mainline Protestant or Catholic Churches . But I too yearn for us to see us with a Prophet someday who was praised for teaching peace, protesting the economic establishment, seeking justice for the working poor, etc. by the general populace.

And there have been pretty harsh comments by catholics over the years. But that is not the point. We are now in the present and it is sad to see a catholic sponsored site that constantly mocks the lds church by calling it a cult, lead by a fraudster.

 

Here is an excerpt that one catholic apologetic site:

 

The fact that Mormons often do not spot the obvious, face-value interpretation of the text reveals how little Mormons have been exposed to the historic understanding of the passage and how little they have been encouraged to think through its rationale. They have not tried to understand the New Testament as a whole, integrating and understanding its individual passages with other passages and with the general historical backdrop. Instead, they have had the interpretations of certain alleged proof texts force-fed to them in a way that keeps them from knowing of the existence of other, more plausible interpretations.

 

But I will not give the link. Imagine our reaction if FAIR would have the same tone toward the catholic church. We would be up in arms, saying that such a tone was not christian. But no such attitude by the catholics who support that catholic website.

[why me]

There is little to approve of in the current economic establishment as I see it, but we give the appearance of being firmly in support of it nevertheless.

This is not true at all. The lds church is a world wide church and many members in Europe vote socialist, green, far right, conservative, liberal etc. It goes across the board. And I have not read any article from the current GAs who support the capitalist system. In fact there are many who speak out against greed. However here is a flash from the past:

 

http://www.lds.org/ensign/1979/11/a-witness-and-a-warning

 

Amazing just what the some GAs were saying back then. No holding back on the punches.

[teddyaware]

This thread was a rather positive take on the pope with many lds praising him for the words he says and for what he does. I would love to see such a positive impression of the lds church on the catholic apologetic site. I just went there and read the antimormon comments by catholics. Sad...really sad to read that mormons are not christian, that the lds have a different jesus and a different god and the mocking of joseph smith.

It doesn't bother me in the slightest that Catholics (or members of any other church for that matter) say the LDS Church is not Christian. From my vantage point as a member of the LDS Church, I don't consider them to be true Christians either. And isn't that what these folks are really saying when they say the Latter-day Saints aren't Christian? They know we worship Christ but they believe we do so without a true understanding of who and what Christ really is; they think our version of Christ is a distortion of reality.

 

The interesting thing is that we think exactly the same thing about them. Latter-day Saints know non-LDS Christians say they worship Christ , but we believe they don't fully understand who or what Christ really is, and so they are to varying degrees ignorant of the true Christ. The only difference between the Catholics you mention and us is that we are more charitable toward their ignorance of the true Christ and don't protest if they want to call themselves Christians. Therefore...

 

1 We don't make a fuss about the Catholics calling themselves Christians even though they don't believe Christ appeared to and taught ancient Americans His Gospel.

2 We don't make a fuss about the Catholics calling themselves Christians even though they don't believe Christ set apart ancient American prophets and commanded them to write and testify of Him.

3 We don't make a fuss about the Catholics calling themselves Christians even though they don't believe the Book of Mormon is the word of God and another testament of Jesus Christ, a book Christ Himself declared as verily true by revelation to a modern prophet.

4 We don't make a fuss about the Catholics calling themselves Christians even though they don't believe the true Christ appeared to Joseph Smith and commanded him to join none of the churches of his day who claimed to believe in the true Christ.

5 We don't make a fuss about the Catholics calling themselves Christians even though they don't believe Christ declared, by revelation to a living prophet, that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the only true church on the face of the earth.

6 We don't make a fuss about the Catholics calling themselves Christians even though they don't believe Jesus Christ revealed to Joseph Smith that the gospel is preached to the dead who die in their sins, without a knowledge of the truth, and to those who are in transgression for having rejected on earth the gospel of Christ and His duly authorized prophets.

7 We don't make a fuss about the Catholics calling themselves Christians even though they don't believe Christ revealed to Joseph Smith that all the human inhabitants of this world had a glorious pre-earth life with Him in Heaven and that His Father is the literal Father of our spirits.

8 We don't make a fuss about the Catholics calling themselves Christians even though they don't believe Christ revealed to Joseph Smith that there are three degrees of glory in the resurrection of the dead.

9 We don't make a fuss about the Catholics calling themselves Christians even though they don't believe Christ revealed to Joseph Smith that marriage and family life is designed by God to last forever and that heaven is not a unisex neuter world.

10 We don't make a fuss about the Catholics calling themselves Christians even though they don't believe Jesus Christ revealed to Joseph Smith that temple worship and temple ordinances are still an essential part of His Gospel.

11 We don't make a fuss about the Catholics calling themselves Christians even though they don't believe that living apostles and prophets will always lay at the foundation of the true Church of Christ.

12 Etc......

So you see, the only real difference between us and them, on this point, is that we are more charitable toward them and don't unkindly invalidate the whole of their religious and faith walk experiences by declaring for all the world to see and hear that they are not really Christians. In fact, we believe that the faithful application of the religious principles these folks are taught in their churches are a good thing and that they will draw closer to God and Christ by faithfully and honestly living their religion, even though it is missing many essential divine truths.

Edited January 2, 2014 by teddyaware

[why me]

So you see, the only real difference between us and them, on this point, is that we are more charitable toward them and don't unkindly invalidate the whole of their religious and faith walk experiences by declaring for all the world to see and hear that they are not really Christians. In fact, we believe that the faithful application of the religious principles these folks are taught in their churches are a good thing and that they will draw closer to God and Christ by faithfully and honestly living their religion, even though it is missing many essential divine truths.

There is a bigger difference. The catholic apologists play defense in that they want their sheep not to convert to mormonism. So, mormonism is a cult, not christian, mormons are brainwashed, etc etc. The problem is that such ideas goes into the average catholic mind who post on that site and such catholics spread the word. When I began to hang out in the catholic church again what did I hear in the beginning? Mormons are not christian, Mormons have a different god, etc etc. Of course, I had to tell them otherwise.

[teddyaware]

There is a bigger difference. The catholic apologists play defense in that they want their sheep not to convert to mormonism. So, mormonism is a cult, not christian, mormons are brainwashed, etc etc. The problem is that such ideas goes into the average catholic mind who post on that site and such catholics spread the word. When I began to hang out in the catholic church again what did I hear in the beginning? Mormons are not christian, Mormons have a different god, etc etc. Of course, I had to tell them otherwise.

They don't have much choice but to do as you say. They have to be unkind toward us because the LDS Church makes so much more sense than theirs does, is so much more logical and appealing than theirs is, has a God who is so much more fair, kind, longsuffering and loving than theirs is, and has so much more to offer than theirs does that they must attack. They take that approach because they must try to preempt and dissuade any attempts on the part of their parishioners who may perchance look into a religion that can really prove God is love.

Edited January 2, 2014 by teddyaware

[Calm]

They don't have much choice but to do as you say. They have to be unkind toward us because the LDS Church makes so much more sense than theirs does, is so much more logical and appealing than theirs is, has a God who is so much more fair, kind, longsuffering and loving than theirs is, and has so much more to offer than theirs does that they must attack. They take that approach because they must try to preempt and dissuade any attempts on the part of their parishioners who may perchance look into a religion that can really prove God is love.

Sorry, don't buy it at all.

What is logical depends on assumptions that are made. I know those who see our faith as completely illogical because they don't have the same assumptions about God as we do.

And I find the Catholic version of God to be infinitely "fair, kind, longsuffering and loving". It is just wrong to paint their beliefs otherwise.

[teddyaware]

Sorry, don't buy it at all.

What is logical depends on assumptions that are made. I know those who see our faith as completely illogical because they don't have the same assumptions about God as we do.

And I find the Catholic version of God to be infinitely "fair, kind, longsuffering and loving". It is just wrong to paint their beliefs otherwise.

Sorry to hear you "don't buy it," Cal. When it comes to divine truth there are no assumptions, there is only what is. I'm wondering if you're one of those who think that in the end all religions are equally true and valid? Also, I wonder if you're responding more to how I said what I said rather than to what I said?

Edited January 3, 2014 by teddyaware

[why me]

And I find the Catholic version of God to be infinitely "fair, kind, longsuffering and loving". It is just wrong to paint their beliefs otherwise.

However, catholics do believe in hell. And hell is a place of torment and suffering.

 

http://www.catholic.com/quickquestions/if-a-sinner-goes-to-hell-for-one-unrepented-mortal-sin-does-god-purge-his-love-love-c

 

http://www.catholic.com/video/why-would-god-create-someone-knowing-they-will-go-to-hell

[Stone holm]

However, catholics do believe in hell. And hell is a place of torment and suffering.

 

http://www.catholic.com/quickquestions/if-a-sinner-goes-to-hell-for-one-unrepented-mortal-sin-does-god-purge-his-love-love-c

 

http://www.catholic.com/video/why-would-god-create-someone-knowing-they-will-go-to-hell

And we believe in hell as a form of purgatory place before final judgment, and outer darkness after final judgment, your point being?

[Stone holm]

Sorry to hear you "don't buy it," Cal. When it comes to divine truth there are no assumptions, there is only what is. I'm wondering if you're one of those who think that in the end all religions are equally true and valid? Also, I wonder if you're responding more to how I said what I said rather than to what I said?

Wow...yes, we believe we belong to the True Church as do Catholics. So do we sing our Church is truer than your church, to the tune of my dogs bigger than yours?

[teddyaware]

However, catholics do believe in hell. And hell is a place of torment and suffering.

 

http://www.catholic.com/quickquestions/if-a-sinner-goes-to-hell-for-one-unrepented-mortal-sin-does-god-purge-his-love-love-c

 

http://www.catholic.com/video/why-would-god-create-someone-knowing-they-will-go-to-hell

The mere fact that Catholic apologist Tim Staples, who speaks of hell in the 2nd linked video, cannot satisfactorily answer the difficult questions about those destined for eternal hell, without saying it's a mystery, puts the LDS plan of salvation light years ahead of the mystifying Catholic "doctrine" on this subject. Doctrine and Covenants Section 76 standing alone puts the perplexing mysteries surrounding this issue to rest ministering understanding, clarity and inner peace to the soul who hungers for the kind of sound and reasonable answers that will fully vindicate God as a being who is truly the embodiment of justice, mercy and perfect love.   

[teddyaware]

Wow...yes, we believe we belong to the True Church as do Catholics. So do we sing our Church is truer than your church, to the tune of my dogs bigger than yours?

Not usually. But the scriptures and the modern prophets don't hesitate to testify that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the one and only true Church. Or didn't you notice?

[Calm]

Sorry to hear you "don't buy it," Cal. When it comes to divine truth there are no assumptions, there is only what is. I'm wondering if you're one of those who think that in the end all religions are equally true and valid? Also, I wonder if you're responding more to how I said what I said rather than to what I said?

I am responding to what you said.

Whether or not Divine Truth exists out there independent of what we think and believe, what we think and believe and express is based on assumptions....even whatever it is you interpret as divine truth.

If you haven't been able to figure out my personal faith yet, I have to wonder if anything anyone says is ever taken into account by you in your responses. It is not like I am a rare poster.

[Stone holm]

Not usually. But the scriptures and the modern prophets don't hesitate to testify that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the one and only true Church. Or didn't you notice?

Yes, and the Catholics have been fairly adamant on the issue as well. Which of us is right depends on our beliefs and testimony. We don't persuade people to our faith, however, by just baldly asserting that God said I am right and you are wrong. All that tends to do is cause people to challenge our truth claims. The fact is the vast majority of Christians do not conceive of God or the hereafter as we do, and many look at the political aura cast out by the majority of our members political beliefs and find it as evidence that our truth claims don't stand up.

[The Nehor]

Wow...yes, we believe we belong to the True Church as do Catholics. So do we sing our Church is truer than your church, to the tune of my dogs bigger than yours?

 

No, we can't. That is not allowed in sacrament meeting per the General Handbook. We sing it to "Come, Come ye Saints" as is proper.

Edited January 3, 2014 by The Nehor

[Stone holm]

No, we can't. That is not allowed in sacrament meeting per the General Handbook. We sing it to "Come, Come ye Saints" as is proper.

True, wonder if it could be adapted to What did the fox say?

[Robert F. Smith]

Yes, and the Catholics have been fairly adamant on the issue as well. Which of us is right depends on our beliefs and testimony. We don't persuade people to our faith, however, by just baldly asserting that God said I am right and you are wrong. All that tends to do is cause people to challenge our truth claims. The fact is the vast majority of Christians do not conceive of God or the hereafter as we do, and many look at the political aura cast out by the majority of our members political beliefs and find it as evidence that our truth claims don't stand up.

Actually the vast majority of Mormons live outside the USA and I am not aware of any poll of their political beliefs.

 

However, you are no doubt referring to the fact that around 85% of all Mormons voting in the last presidential election voted for the Mormon guy who was running.  Probably the same percent of Roman Catholics voted for John F. Kennedy in the 1960 race,  These things happen.  However, I'm not so certain that anyone has a good handle on the nature of American Mormon political beliefs -- except in Utah, where they have real impact in guaranteeing corruption in high office.  The rarity of real competition for political office makes the bosses complacent and self-seeking.

 

I don't consider LDS theology to be in any way related to that sort of dysfunction.

[why me]

. The fact is the vast majority of Christians do not conceive of God or the hereafter as we do, and many look at the political aura cast out by the majority of our members political beliefs and find it as evidence that our truth claims don't stand up.

There are various stereotypes related to mormons. One is that all are republican and are deeply in love with capitalism. It is true however that mormons can be more conservative on social issues based on their take on moral theology. But that may also be a stereotype.

Edited January 3, 2014 by why me

[teddyaware]

Yes, and the Catholics have been fairly adamant on the issue as well. Which of us is right depends on our beliefs and testimony. We don't persuade people to our faith, however, by just baldly asserting that God said I am right and you are wrong. All that tends to do is cause people to challenge our truth claims. The fact is the vast majority of Christians do not conceive of God or the hereafter as we do, and many look at the political aura cast out by the majority of our members political beliefs and find it as evidence that our truth claims don't stand up.

The truth is the truth and the LDS Church is the only true church with the living authority of God on the earth. God wants this fact known, and it seems He doesn't much care if it's going to raise somebody's hackles.

 

I can just imagine the 14 year old Joseph Smith protesting to God at his first vision: "It's not fair, Father! How could you speak so poorly of all the churches? You say there can only be one true and living Church at a time on the earth? That's not right!"

Quite some time ago I came to realize this discussion board is really a somewhat inhospitable place for LDS members with solid testimonies. It seems that in order to facilitate the kind of dialogue and discussion that's most appreciated here (musing intellectualism where nothing is ever really settled), it's best for one not to have a deep and abiding testimony of the Restored Church, because to admit and speak of such is politically incorrect and "abusive" to the sensibilities of those participants on here who disbelieve or are not so sure.

 

It's hard to imagine how people like Nephi, Moroni, Paul and Joseph Smith could dialogue on here without causing constant irritation, consternation and offence. Would I terribly offend if I said this may be a very good place for people who are determined to be numbered among those who are "ever learning, but never able to come to the knowledge of the truth?" Or perhaps it might be better stated as 'ever learning but not wanting to accept the truth, because doing so would cause one to enter the ranks of the socially and politically incorrect.'

 

But on second thought, I guess this board would be awfully boring if everyone was the same...

Edited January 3, 2014 by teddyaware

[Stone holm]

The truth is the truth and the LDS Church is the only true church with the living authority of God on the earth. God wants this fact known, and it seems He doesn't much care if it's going to raise somebody's hackles.

 

I can just imagine the 14 year old Joseph Smith protesting to God at his first vision: "It's not fair, Father! How could you speak so poorly of all the churches? You say there can only be one true and living Church at a time on the earth? That's not right!"

Quite some time ago I came to realize this discussion board is really a somewhat inhospitable place for LDS members with solid testimonies. It seems that in order to facilitate the kind of dialogue and discussion that's most appreciated here (musing intellectualism where nothing is ever really settled), it's best for one not to have a deep and abiding testimony of the Restored Church, because to admit and speak of such is politically incorrect and "abusive" to the sensibilities of those participants on here who disbelieve or are not so sure.

 

It's hard to imagine how people like Nephi, Moroni, Paul and Joseph Smith could dialogue on here without causing constant irritation, consternation and offence. Would I terribly offend if I said this may be a very good place for people who are determined to be numbered among those who are "ever learning, but never able to come to the knowledge of the truth?" Or perhaps it might be better stated as 'ever learning but not wanting to accept the truth, because doing so would cause one to enter the ranks of the socially and politically incorrect.'

 

But on second thought, I guess this board would be awfully boring if everyone was the same...

This board is very strong on civility. Civility requires in this instance reasoned opinions rather than aggressive declarations of Faith, or calling into question the strength of a persons testimony. In some cases, the strength of ones testimony may be more dramatically shown in acknowledging the strongpoints in other religions and weak points in your own Church while still remaining active and supporting the Church. Those who live in a black and white world sometimes blunder outside the Church because truth in this world is a coat of many colors.

[Scott Lloyd]

Actually the vast majority of Mormons live outside the USA and I am not aware of any poll of their political beliefs.

 

I know there's a majority, but is it "vast"?

 

It was in the news a few years ago when the number of Mormons living outside the U.S. finally exceeded 50 percent. But that was not too long ago.

 

I haven't seen any recent figures, but I would be surprised to learn that the proportion could now be considered "vast."

[teddyaware]

And I am not one of those who lives in a black and white world. I believe that Christ is the true light "which lighteth every man that cometh into the world." The non-LDS Christian churches of the world have been and are now a great blessing to our world; and I shudder to think what the world would be like without them. There are so many good, decent, faithful and god-fearing people in those churches, including many beloved members of my own family, and many of these folks have been a great blessing in my life. A great many of these folks enjoy the indwelling spirit of Christ and are wonderful people, most assuredly beloved of God.
 
At the same time I agree with President George Albert Smith who said:

“If the Church I represent here is not of more importance to the children of men than any other church, then I am mistaken in my duty here. We have come not to take away from you the truth and virtue you possess. We have not come to find fault with you or to criticize you. … Keep all the good that you have, and let us bring to you more good, in order that you may be happier and in order that you may be prepared to enter into the presence of our Heavenly Father.” (George Albert Smith)

The reason why the Latter-day Saints put such a strong emphasis on missionary work is because we know we have something other Christians don't have: Important things, precious things, things that are essential to the fullness of salvation that other churches quite simply don't have. If there are any who don't understand this, teaching all churches are equally valuable and salvative in order to be popular and politically correct, they are missing the mark and to a certain degree may be denying the faith. 

[ChristKnight]

The mere fact that Catholic apologist Tim Staples, who speaks of hell in the 2nd linked video, cannot satisfactorily answer the difficult questions about those destined for eternal hell, without saying it's a mystery, puts the LDS plan of salvation light years ahead of the mystifying Catholic "doctrine" on this subject. Doctrine and Covenants Section 76 standing alone puts the perplexing mysteries surrounding this issue to rest ministering understanding, clarity and inner peace to the soul who hungers for the kind of sound and reasonable answers that will fully vindicate God as a being who is truly the embodiment of justice, mercy and perfect love.   

 

Having listened to the entirety of the video, I find nothing "mystifying" about his Catholic perspective on the matter.  He clearly provides the Catholic perspective on hell (which emphasizes that Hell is for those that knowingly turn away from God, which is how Catholics view "mortal sin" (which requires knowingly and willfully disobeying the will of God on a serious matter).  Those in Hell, not in the eternal presence of God, are those that didn't want to be there anyway.  The "mystery" part, from the Catholic perspective, is that we simply don't have the perspective of God on these issues.  God has not fully revealed all that there is to know, all that He knows.  Perhaps Catholics would find this verse relevant:

 

1 Corinthians 13:12

¹² For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

 

I see nothing "light years ahead" with the LDS perspective, except that it is a different perspective on what happens after death.