And This Pope Rocks On

[thesometimesaint]

Is the risk to Pres Monson any greater than the risk to the Pope? And even if so, should that matter? Isn't that risk part of the job of being a prophet?

 

It is, but shouldn't be. We don't lock our doors because we don't have anything of value, but because we do.

[thesometimesaint]

I hate bringing this up but if the church ever reads this, haha maybe it'll do some good.  The church could do even more for the poor.  It gives way more than most, but with what it brings in, we need to remember the Widow's Mite story here. 

 

We do pretty good for a small church. You have to remember that aid to the poor is but one of the four fold mission of the Church.

[thesometimesaint]

It would not be the same Mormon Church that many of us joined, I am afraid there is a size limit to the peculiarities of our tightly organized brand. Exceed it and it becomes either different or ugly. I suspect that we are becoming different.

We change as conditions, and Gods' command require.

 

The Church I joined wasn't the same as JS day when you could put every member of the Church in a small house. When we were largely a Utah church(when joined) it isn't the same Church now with 15 million and counting. I don't expect it will be the same in The Millennium either.

[thesometimesaint]

Please tell me how I mischaracterized your position. Believe it or not, I actually have a great amount of respect for how you conduct yourself on this board and do not want to abuse your fairness by unfairly ascribing to you a position you have not taken.

As I read your post, it seems that you are concerned for the person who wouldn't want their weakness to become entertainment for others when an apostle showed up at their home with a camera crew. I can certainly understand that, but what about all of the people who are pictured being helped by LDS members in natural disasters? Shouldn't they be granted that same right?

Now, perhaps your opinion is that the church shouldn't be taking pictures in any of these situations. In that case, I may not agree, but I can admire such a consistent stand on principle.

I'm really just trying to understand your position on this "vital" issue

 

There is a difference between tooting your own horn and letting your light shine forth.

[DBMormon]

Having severe Depression/Dementia/mental illness isn't a sin any more than having a funky Gall Bladder is.

I don't remember saying sin.  I thought I said flaw.  By that I mean weakness.  We all have them.  God gave us weakness to make us humble.  Some of them lead to sin though such as our weaknesses can drive us to make bad choices on top of them.  I am trying to walk a fine line as I see both weaknesses that are not sin such as depression and weaknesses such as arrogance which are sin beneficial if we sprinkle it in.  For instance, helping members see the Elder Bruce R. McConkie was susceptible to pushing his opinion forcefully as Doctrine may help members to be able to recognize in a real life example Elder Christofferson's teaching

 

At the same time it should be remembered that not every statement made by a Church leader, past or present, necessarily constitutes doctrine. It is commonly understood in the Church that a statement made by one leader on a single occasion often represents a personal, though well-considered, opinion, not meant to be official or binding for the whole Church. The Prophet Joseph Smith taught that “a prophet [is] a prophet only when he [is] acting as such.

 

 

I see value in using real example to help people make the connection.  If we don't people are likely to take the meaning they want from such a teaching and cherry pick when to apply it.

 

Even though Elder Christofferson says it is commonly understood, It doesn't appear in my are to be so common.

Edited December 28, 2013 by DBMormon

[thesometimesaint]

We kinda grow through stages. All of us start out thinking of our parents are near perfect, if not perfect. Then our parents got a whole lot more fallible when we were teenagers. They got suddenly wise when we turned 23. I'm 62 now and both my parents have both gone beyond the veil. I realize they were just human like I am. Trying to do the best they could with just as human children.

[mormonnewb]

Worldwide I would agree interest is limited, too many have negative views, photo ops are often downplayed or 'balance' with criticism. Don't see that as an issue in the US now, tons of Mormon jokes in the media, some even funny, a number of reality show participants are known for their 'mormonness'...David Archuleta sp? He would have been followed around on his mission if allowed. It would take some time but it could be developed...it is being developed in a lot of ways...but it may be they are going for the mass effect so it is less about the individuals involved and more the Church. Tons of stories about hundreds of different ordinary members doing even extraordinary things still end up making the Church the celebrity. I would be interested to hear how outsiders responded to Pres. Kimball and Hinckley who I see as the best know modern prophets. With the Pope it is almost as if in reading some stuff the RCC is just a background set for a great actor to work his magic on, rather than encouraging Catholics to be better Catholics and nonCatholics to consider joining the Body of Christ. I am in no way saying this is what the Pope is trying to achieve, just that some of the press think they have a right to rewrite the script. The Church loses control of the story the more they get involved with the press, perhaps they chooses stories to publicise based on this problem, perhaps the very stories that paint leaders so well as human are the ones that take on their own life.

I think a question that might get to the core of the issue would to be to ask the PR guys if a story going viral about President Monson be seen as more likely a good or bad thing and what kind of effects, short and long, expected.

It's funny that you mention Pres. Hinckley because he is my wife's first introduction to the Church. She saw him in a couple of interviews and developed a grandfatherly (or perhaps, granddaughterly) affection for him. When we moved to the Mormon corridor and began running into saints, she would always mention Hinckley and what a "sweet man" he was.

I realize that this is not how The Lord has called Pres Monson to serve the Church, but perhaps, we could put forth another apostle in that role. I nominated Pres Uchtdorf, who I suspect would be even more popular with women

[mormonnewb]

I don't reject out of hand the possibility of being motivated by lust. I reject the conclusion-jumping that just because it's possible, it's what actually happened.

 

Moreover, I refuse to give any man a pass on unrighteously succumbing to his appetites, including those you mentioned as being among those you admire. Like you, I was a 30-something man for a decade. But I was not just a 30-something man, I was a single 30-something man who controlled his lusts to the point of de facto celibacy. Thus, I am in a position to say that if I exercise control over lusts, other men can as well, particularly those who are married and presumably have a proper outlet for their passions.

Just out of curiosity, in your 30s, did you restore the Gospel or bring equal rights to millions? Or perhaps, you saved all of humanity from a floor or lead the people of Israel against her enemies. No? Me neither!

That's why I tend to give a "pass" to those who are changing the world because if I were in their shoes, I might not have the time and energy to reach the level of moral "perfection" that I have attained

[ERayR]

I hate bringing this up but if the church ever reads this, haha maybe it'll do some good.  The church could do even more for the poor.  It gives way more than most, but with what it brings in, we need to remember the Widow's Mite story here. 

 

"I hate bringing this up but" I get the felling that you really have no idea the scope of what the Church does for the poor.

[saemo]

You'll forgive us if we don't accept your version of the truth, I hope.

 

The washing of feet is involved in the ordinance we refer to as the "washing and annointing" which is necessary for exaltation and administered in the temples dedicated to God.

The most profound and sacred act in the history of mankind, the Crucifixion of Jesus, occurred publicly, not in secret. So you'll forgive me if I don't accept secret ceremonies as representing anything that is necessary.

[Tacenda]

"I hate bringing this up but" I get the felling that you really have no idea the scope of what the Church does for the poor.

Just statistics, maybe old and not current, hopefully changed for the better.... the amount that the church states it donated over 25 years is 1 billion. And the church takes in several billion a year, seems to me more can be done to work on the 4th mission statement. I still hope the church reads this...

[Stone holm]

The most profound and sacred act in the history of mankind, the Crucifixion of Jesus, occurred publicly, not in secret. So you'll forgive me if I don't accept secret ceremonies as representing anything that is necessary.

Yeah that analogy has no legs. Alms are given in secret, it was necessary that the execution be public.

[why me]

The most profound and sacred act in the history of mankind, the Crucifixion of Jesus, occurred publicly, not in secret. So you'll forgive me if I don't accept secret ceremonies as representing anything that is necessary.

It is not exactly secret. It is in the temple and experienced by many people. But I wouldn't call it secret. More like sacred. What would be gained by making it public? Also, I am not sure just how many people saw the execution of Jesus. To my knowledge, not many. And if true, why?

[why me]

Just statistics, maybe old and not current, hopefully changed for the better.... the amount that the church states it donated over 25 years is 1 billion. And the church takes in several billion a year, seems to me more can be done to work on the 4th mission statement. I still hope the church reads this...

It would be nice to see a link.

 

However we do have this:

 

http://www.lds.org/liahona/2007/12/news-of-the-church/clean-water-is-major-aim-of-church-humanitarian-program?lang=eng&query=lds+church+humanitarian+donations

 

In the remote mountain village of Navunimono, Fiji, drinking water used to come directly from the river that passes through the community. Cattle farms upstream, rainstorms, and other environmental factors make the river water unsafe for drinking, necessitating the recent installation of three water storage tanks.

The storage tanks, installed under the auspices of the Church’s Humanitarian Services, are among more than 50 similar installations made by the Church throughout Fiji.

Tomujani Boginivalu, leader of the Navunimono village, noted, “Our water supply is now clear and easily obtained for the whole community.”

“In order for the villagers to claim that ownership,” explained Leo Wright, humanitarian services missionary for the Church in Fiji, “the locals take responsibility for the water tank maintenance. They build, at their own expense and labor, the block and concrete bases for the tanks. In addition, a local individual is appointed as the ongoing caretaker of the tanks. In this way the villagers have an investment in the project and become more aware of its usefulness.”

Local resident Joseva Vitinavulagi observed the changes following the installation. “The clay base of the reservoir servicing the village is dirty because there’s no water purification plant. With the new tanks installed, I’ve already noticed the change in the skin of the children and adults in the village. I am proud to say that schoolchildren now go to school with plastic bottles of clean water.”

Access to clean water is one of the Church’s major humanitarian initiatives. In 2006 clean water projects were completed in 34 different countries.

Concern for clean water sources, according to the World Health Organization, is significant worldwide. More than a billion people lack access to a healthy water source; many of these individuals suffer from waterborne diseases such as cholera, diarrhea, and typhoid. Ninety percent of all infectious diseases in developing countries are caused by unhealthy water supplies.

Depending on local needs and requirements, the Church program provides community water supplies through a variety of methods, including wells, boreholes, storage tanks, and water purification systems.

“It is the aim of our program,” explained Brett Bass, project manager of Humanitarian Services of the Church, “to support local people and organizations as they find sustainable solutions for their water needs. In the case of Fiji, the people have come together to identify a suitable solution and then have put forth the effort to make it happen.”

 

Not bad for a small church. I think that the church also stresses sustainability.

Edited December 29, 2013 by why me

[Tacenda]

It would be nice to see a link.

http://www.ldschurchnews.com/humanitarian/

 

I was on my phone, therefore no link.  In this link it's more like 22 yrs. not 25 yrs.  I guess I'm just agitating here for our church to shine even brighter for all the right reasons.  Yes, I've my doubts about the church but hope that it can be what HF wants it to be, especially if I'm going to stick around.  That may sound bad, but it is what it is.      

[why me]

http://www.ldschurchnews.com/humanitarian/

 

I was on my phone, therefore no link.  In this link it's more like 22 yrs. not 25 yrs.  I guess I'm just agitating here for our church to shine even brighter for all the right reasons.  Yes, I've my doubts about the church but hope that it can be what HF wants it to be, especially if I'm going to stick around.  That may sound bad, but it is what it is.      

I think that the problem is that the church cannot shine enough for certain people. There is always something wrong. Sometimes we need to see the glass half full and not half empty. Also, it is good to know just what needs agitating. And what are the right reasons? I sometimes think that you are in a sea of negativity when it comes to the lds church. Not easy to find the shore. The church has done much to help those in need through good sustainable methods.

 

I hope that Tacenda reads this. Maybe the church is what HF thinks it should be. Do you know any different?

Edited December 29, 2013 by why me

[thesometimesaint]

The most profound and sacred act in the history of mankind, the Crucifixion of Jesus, occurred publicly, not in secret. So you'll forgive me if I don't accept secret ceremonies as representing anything that is necessary.

 

To LDS the most profound and sacred act in the history of mankind occurred in Gathsemane, the taking on all of the death, misery, sins, illnesses, injuries, bad things of the world for all time, and for everyone whom has ever lived on earth. An agony so great that it caused Christ, our God, to bleed from every pore. It occurred in private, not even his Apostles were there. I am so sorry that you don't accept that sacrifice as anything necessary.

Edited December 29, 2013 by thesometimesaint

[saemo]

To LDS the most profound and sacred act in the history of mankind occurred in Gathsemane, the taking on all of the death, misery, sins, illnesses, injuries, bad things of the world for all time, and for everyone whom has ever lived on earth. An agony so great that it caused Christ, our God, to bleed from every pore. It occurred in private, not even his Apostles were there. I am so sorry that you don't accept that sacrifice as anything necessary.

Yes, Jesus said many times, "find a secret garden and go there for me". Oh wait, it was "pick up your cross and follow me".

[saemo]

It is not exactly secret. It is in the temple and experienced by many people. But I wouldn't call it secret. More like sacred. What would be gained by making it public? Also, I am not sure just how many people saw the execution of Jesus. To my knowledge, not many. And if true, why?

Why do you believe sacred acts need to be hidden?

Perhaps read up on Roman capital punishment?

[saemo]

Yeah that analogy has no legs. Alms are given in secret, it was necessary that the execution be public.

I skimmed the "Atonement" thread, Jesus died to impress the gods? That's a new one. But where to begin when people have paganized Christianity to the point of absurdity?

I don't think we have anything to discuss.

[thesometimesaint]

Yes, Jesus said many times, "find a secret garden and go there for me". Oh wait, it was "pick up your cross and follow me".

 

He sure did. Things like pray in secret; Go to your closet to pray; Don't pray in public like the hypocrites; Do good secretly and God will reward you openly. Exactly who else was there with him and the woman taken in adultery? He also said things like could you not stay awake for one hour with me. He also said things like tell no one. What exactly did he tell his Apostles for those 40 days after his Resurrection?  No my friend he did a great many things in secret and openly. To focus only on the open is to forget his commandments as is to focus only on the private.

 

Does the Catholic church open up its conclave of the College of the Cardinals to the public when electing a new Pope? The public might be interested in those deliberations. It's been a while since the public has seen two living Popes at one time.

[why me]

Why do you believe sacred acts need to be hidden?

 

Why not? All religious faiths have their cultural dimensions. For Mormons it is the temple. For catholics it is choosing the pope. And like I said, the temple experience is experienced by many people. It is really not that secret. Many have disclosed what happens because they have been there and now are exmembers. So, nothing is really hidden.

[Stone holm]

I skimmed the "Atonement" thread, Jesus died to impress the gods? That's a new one. But where to begin when people have paganized Christianity to the point of absurdity?

I don't think we have anything to discuss.

You did not read carefully. Intelligences are not gods, but their willingness to recognize the authority of a god. They will not recognize unjust beings, that is the lesson of the B o M, gods are also bound by certain laws, violate the law and you cease to be a god because the intelligences cease to recognize your authority.

[Tacenda]

You did not read carefully. Intelligences are not gods, but their willingness to recognize the authority of a god. They will not recognize unjust beings, that is the lesson of the B o M, gods are also bound by certain laws, violate the law and you cease to be a god because the intelligences cease to recognize your authority.

So our god is not THE God?

[The Nehor]

The most profound and sacred act in the history of mankind, the Crucifixion of Jesus, occurred publicly, not in secret. So you'll forgive me if I don't accept secret ceremonies as representing anything that is necessary.

 

Actually the most profound and sacred act was him rising again....and that was not a public event so you'll forgive if I don't accept that everything important God does must happen in a public forum.