Three And Eight Witnesses

[cdowis]

Probably your second paragraph should read "The first thing I would do if I had been Oliver Cowdery after is excommunication from the church would be to discredit the BOM..." How can you know what Oliver would have done? 

 

I'm not saying Oliver was a liar and he may well have seen the gold plates. But if he didn't then there are many reasons why he might not have discredited the book. If he'd discredited the book he would have discredited himself.

 

snip

If Oliver hadn't seen the plates/angel/John the Baptist/Peter, James and John/the Lord/Elijah/a vision of the other plates in the mountain etc etc and then went on to say he had lied about it all for 10 years it would not have solely destroyed Joseph's reputation. It would have destroyed Oliver's.

 

If there were no plates then what is the probability that 8 men would either be deceived about thinking they had seen them or willing to lie about seeing them? Well... if there were no plates then the probability is '1' because that would have been what happened. Given we don't know for certain whether the plates existed or not then we have to take it all on faith.

 

If you read his history as an attorney, his credibility was already in question by claiming that he saw a vision from God.  He could have done some damage control by exclaiming that Joseph Smith had deceived him.  He had plenty of opportunities to do so. 

 

Finally, a fundamental rule of a conspiracy is to have as few members as possibility.  Here we have at least eleven witnesses who remained true to the "conspiracy" to the very end, even after leaving the church, after the death of Joseph Smith, and giving witness on their deathbed. 

 

With this cloud of witnesses -- not only one event, but  multiple divine events, JS accomplished what no person has ever done, save Jesus Christ himself.

Edited October 24, 2013 by cdowis

[pcarthew]

The Testimony of Three Witnesses

Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That we, through the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, have seen the plates which contain this record, which is a record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanites, their brethren, and also of the people of Jared, who came from the tower of which hath been spoken. And we also know that they have been translated by the gift and power of God, for his voice hath declared it unto us; wherefore we know of a surety that the work is true. And we also testify that we have seen the engravings which are upon the plates; and they have been shown unto us by the power of God, and not of man. And we declare with words of soberness, that an angel of God came down from heaven, and he brought and laid before our eyes, that we beheld and saw the plates, and the engravings thereon; and we know that it is by the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, that we beheld and bear record that these things are true. And it is marvelous in our eyes. Nevertheless, the voice of the Lord commanded us that we should bear record of it; wherefore, to be obedient unto the commandments of God, we bear testimony of these things. And we know that if we are faithful in Christ, we shall rid our garments of the blood of all men, and be found spotless before the judgment-seat of Christ, and shall dwell with him eternally in the heavens. And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen.

Oliver Cowdery

David Whitmer

Martin Harris

(The Testimony of Three Witnesses)

The Testimony of Eight Witnesses

Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That Joseph Smith, Jun., the translator of this work, has shown unto us the plates of which hath been spoken, which have the appearance of gold; and as many of the leaves as the said Smith has translated we did handle with our hands; and we also saw the engravings thereon, all of which has the appearance of ancient work, and of curious workmanship. And this we bear record with words of soberness, that the said Smith has shown unto us, for we have seen and hefted, and know of a surety that the said Smith has got the plates of which we have spoken. And we give our names unto the world, to witness unto the world that which we have seen. And we lie not, God bearing witness of it.

Christian Whitmer

Jacob Whitmer

Peter Whitmer, Jun.

John Whitmer

Hiram Page

Joseph Smith, Sen.

Hyrum Smith

Samuel H. Smith

(The Testimony of Eight Witnesses)

Worth a very close read for the objective mind: http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/transcripts/I00021-Book_of_Mormon_Witnesses.html

I stand by my op, when all is said and done, as instructed by The Lord and Saviour himself, that his word shall be established in the mouth of two or three witnesses, the above cannot be explained away but by poorly researched unreliable texts. Their testimonies stand true. All in all there issues laid in their own pride and sin and problems with other men...never with their testimony of this book.

Edited October 24, 2013 by pcarthew

[jkwilliams]

I'm still at a loss as to why the witness testimony is important. It's the finished product (the Book of Mormon) that matters to me.

[Avatar4321]

I'm still at a loss as to why the witness testimony is important. It's the finished product (the Book of Mormon) that matters to me.

 

The Law of witnesses. By the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.

 

The Book of Mormon is also a type of Christ. Christ had 12 witnesses. So does the Book of Mormon.

[jkwilliams]

The Law of witnesses. By the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.

 

The Book of Mormon is also a type of Christ. Christ had 12 witnesses. So does the Book of Mormon.

I'm just not sure what, if anything, it tells us about the authenticity of the Book of Mormon translation.

[pcarthew]

I'm still at a loss as to why the witness testimony is important. It's the finished product (the Book of Mormon) that matters to me.

I do not disagree at all, it is the finished product which is just magnificent and a blessing to every living creature. But of all the studies, the conjecture, Hebraic chiasma, the testimonies stand as a witness it the word as directed by God himself.

Perhaps my greatest intrigue to do with the BOM is the time that has been spent to discredit it, as it directly testifies of Christ and his plan of salvation. There would not be another Christian text so studied to be proven wrong, perhaps also the PoGP. For a religious group that makes up nearly less than 1% of Christendom and are assumed by many to be sect like, I am not quite sure why the interest, certainly statistically we would hardly be influential. But because it pertains to the fullness of the gospel and contains it, it will forever be a target of the prince of darkness, to try to break the keystone of our religion.

Edited October 24, 2013 by pcarthew

[jkwilliams]

I do not disagree at all, it is the finished product which is just magnificent and a blessing to every living creature. But of all the studies, the conjecture, Hebraic chiasma, the testimonies stand as a witness it the word as directed by God himself.

Perhaps my greatest intrigue to do with the BOM is the time that has been spent to discredit it, as it directly testifies of Christ and his plan of salvation. There would not be another Christian text so studied to be proven wrong, perhaps also the PoGP. For a religious group that makes up nearly less than 1% of Christendom and are assumed by many to be sect like, I am not quite sure why the interest, certainly statistically we would hardly be influential. But because it pertains to the fullness of the gospel and contains it, it will forever be a target of the prince of darkness, to try to break the keystone of our religion.

The problem is simple: you can't prove it to be wrong. That's impossible. If I wanted to try that, I wouldn't know where to start.

From within the church, it probably does seem that the church and its scriptures receive undue attention, but it looks differently outside, at least to me. YMMV.

[thesometimesaint]

The problem is simple: you can't prove it to be wrong. That's impossible. If I wanted to try that, I wouldn't know where to start.

From within the church, it probably does seem that the church and its scriptures receive undue attention, but it looks differently outside, at least to me. YMMV.

 

We live by faith.

[pcarthew]

Do you also believe the eight witnesses that signed affidavits declaring that JS plagiarized the BoM from Solomon Spaulding's Manuscript Found.  Or what about the  witnesses (one of whom was Martin Harris) who signed affidavits saying they were there when Strang discovered the Voree Plates and held them in their hands before they were later "translated" through the power of God?

The answer to this is there is no solid evidence to the claim you make here, in fact it is absolute garbage.

[omni]

The answer to this is there is no solid evidence to the claim you make here, in fact it is absolute garbage.

So James Strang didn't really have witnesses testify to the veracity of his plates? And there weren't really witnesses who described being told the story of Solomon Spalding's manuscript and describing the remarkable similarities to the BoM? Oh, do tell!

[jkwilliams]

The answer to this is there is no solid evidence to the claim you make here, in fact it is absolute garbage.

Not to be rude, but what's the solid evidence we get from the three and eight witnesses?

[thesometimesaint]

So James Strang didn't really have witnesses testify to the veracity of his plates? And there weren't really witnesses who described being told the story of Solomon Spalding's manuscript and describing the remarkable similarities to the BoM? Oh, do tell!

The problem is that some of those witnesses revoked that veracity.

http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon/Witnesses/Strangite_parallels

 

Having read both the differences are profound and many. While the similarities are superficial, tenuous and few.

http://www.fairlds.org/authors/misc/ask-the-apologist-solomon-spaulding-and-the-book-of-mormon

Edited October 24, 2013 by thesometimesaint

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

I'm just not sure what, if anything, it tells us about the authenticity of the Book of Mormon translation.

There witness was on the golden plates and seeing the angel Moroni. I wonder if other plates were show by angels to other people. Two of the three after all had been excommunicated returned to the Church and did in the SLC valley. "...by the testimony of two witnesses shall truth be established". All of these men could have had a following by denouncing this event. The "authenticity does not make every word correct, as Mormon said, "if there are mistakes, it is because of the weaknesses of men and the difficulty in writing" (I have this is quotes because I cannot remember it perfectly). Although Emma and others left they remained true to the idea it was true, until they all died. However the CoC (RLDS) has declared it more of a spiritual novel, put them somewhat in forming a faith around a Ron Hubbard novel.

[why me]

I'm still at a loss as to why the witness testimony is important. It's the finished product (the Book of Mormon) that matters to me.

Without the testimonies of these witnesses it would be very difficult to defend the book of mormon. It would be Joseph's word only. Not much of a leg to stand on.

[why me]

So James Strang didn't really have witnesses testify to the veracity of his plates? And there weren't really witnesses who described being told the story of Solomon Spalding's manuscript and describing the remarkable similarities to the BoM? Oh, do tell!

One can be a witness for anything if one wants too. But for the 11 witnesses after experiencing their own persecution like facing a firing squad and death if they did not admit it was a fraud, I would say their case is very strong.

[jkwilliams]

Without the testimonies of these witnesses it would be very difficult to defend the book of mormon. It would be Joseph's word only. Not much of a leg to stand on.

There would be the book itself.

[thesometimesaint]

There would be the book itself.

 

There are lots of books. How do we decide if the truth claims of a book are real? IE; Homer wrote the Iliad and the Odyssey. Why do we not believe in those ancient Greek Gods.

Edited October 24, 2013 by thesometimesaint

[jkwilliams]

There are lots of books. How do we decide if the truth claims of a book are real? IE; Homer wrote the Iliad and the Odyssey. Why do we not believe in those ancient Greek Gods.

We are asked to read the Book of Mormon and pray about it, witnesses or not. I doubt very many people receive a testimony of the Book of Mormon because of the witnesses, but I could be wrong.

I'm not being contrary, but just mulling this over in my mind. As much effort goes into supporting or discrediting the witnesses, I'm just not sure how important they are in the end.

[Mystery Meat]

We are asked to read the Book of Mormon and pray about it, witnesses or not. I doubt very many people receive a testimony of the Book of Mormon because of the witnesses, but I could be wrong.

I'm not being contrary, but just mulling this over in my mind. As much effort goes into supporting or discrediting the witnesses, I'm just not sure how important they are in the end.

 

I understand (I think) what you are saying jk and I agree with you. My testimony of the Book of Mormon as the word of God would survive without the existence of the 11 witnesses not named Joseph Smith. That is due to personal revelation, the effect the teachings and doctrine of the book have had on my life, faith, and even a healthy amount of hope. 

 

Having said that the point the OP and others are making is not worth discounting. The witnesses despite their varying backgrounds, commitment to the church, persecution, and other life challenges remained true to their testimony of those books. Perhaps there are a variety of reasons for why they would have done this, but when considering the individual circumstances of each of these men in their totality it seems to me (granted as a believer) that the reason they remained true to their witness is because they actual experienced what they said they experienced. And as I said above that my testimony is not dependent upon the witnesses for validation, I would be lying if I did not admit that the 11 witnesses strengthen it.

 

I believe, and this is just my opinion, that the Lord picked the 11 who he did on purpose. In fact, I think the Lord knew they would all (or most of them anyhow) leave the Church at some point, that they were men of integrity, and that these two facts combined would strengthen the power of their witness, especially as more and more influences arise that try to insert doubt as to the divine origin of the Book of Mormon (i.e. that language analysis study). No study can be done that will show the 11 witnesses denied see the plates, or in the case of the three that an angel showed them the plates. 

 

Again, my testimony is deeply rooted in the contents of the Book of Mormon, the effects it has had on my life, Joseph Smith as a prophet, seer, revealator, and a special witness of the Savior. But the Lord in his mercy, has given the law of witnesses. It was merciful to Joseph Smith who must have felt a profound sense of relief knowing that he no longer had to carry that burden on his own, and it was and is merciful to all those who have received a testimony of the divinity of the Book of Mormon of their own. It doesn't enhance that testimony, but it does strengthen it.

[omni]

I understand (I think) what you are saying jk and I agree with you. My testimony of the Book of Mormon as the word of God would survive without the existence of the 11 witnesses not named Joseph Smith. That is due to personal revelation, the effect the teachings and doctrine of the book have had on my life, faith, and even a healthy amount of hope.

Having said that the point the OP and others are making is not worth discounting. The witnesses despite their varying backgrounds, commitment to the church, persecution, and other life challenges remained true to their testimony of those books. Perhaps there are a variety of reasons for why they would have done this, but when considering the individual circumstances of each of these men in their totality it seems to me (granted as a believer) that the reason they remained true to their witness is because they actual experienced what they said they experienced. And as I said above that my testimony is not dependent upon the witnesses for validation, I would be lying if I did not admit that the 11 witnesses strengthen it.

I believe, and this is just my opinion, that the Lord picked the 11 who he did on purpose. In fact, I think the Lord knew they would all (or most of them anyhow) leave the Church at some point, that they were men of integrity, and that these two facts combined would strengthen the power of their witness, especially as more and more influences arise that try to insert doubt as to the divine origin of the Book of Mormon (i.e. that language analysis study). No study can be done that will show the 11 witnesses denied see the plates, or in the case of the three that an angel showed them the plates.

Again, my testimony is deeply rooted in the contents of the Book of Mormon, the effects it has had on my life, Joseph Smith as a prophet, seer, revealator, and a special witness of the Savior. But the Lord in his mercy, has given the law of witnesses. It was merciful to Joseph Smith who must have felt a profound sense of relief knowing that he no longer had to carry that burden on his own, and it was and is merciful to all those who have received a testimony of the divinity of the Book of Mormon of their own. It doesn't enhance that testimony, but it does strengthen it.

You stole my thunder with your eloquent post. I was going to mention essentially the same thing--that we're taught that our testimonies should be based on spiritual witnesses, however the 11 witnesses are a nice bonus.

[why me]

There would be the book itself.

I think that many would fall away with just the book itself. People are falling away now even with the witnesses testimonies and their remarkable stories. Amazingly, the people who do fall away tend to discount their spiritual experiences when they were members by claiming that all people in their respective religions have spiritual experiences. But the witnesses never denied their spiritual experiences with the book of mormon. They never rationalized it away. And that does mean something in this age of former member rationalizations as they dump their spiritual experiences by the wayside.

[jkwilliams]

I think that many would fall away with just the book itself. People are falling away now even with the witnesses testimonies and their remarkable stories. Amazingly, the people who do fall away tend to discount their spiritual experiences when they were members by claiming that all people in their respective religions have spiritual experiences. But the witnesses never denied their spiritual experiences with the book of mormon. They never rationalized it away. And that does mean something in this age of former member rationalizations as they dump their spiritual experiences by the wayside.

It's rather difficult for me to judge people who have left the church or the reasons they left any more than I judge those who join the church and their reasons for joining. It's a bit harsh to dismiss what is almost always a painful and devastating experience as "dumping their spiritual experiences by the wayside."

One thing that was a hard lesson for me to learn is that other people see things much differently than I do, and I have no right to say that my path is the right one and theirs is not. It's better to be good than right.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Without the testimonies of these witnesses it would be very difficult to defend the book of mormon. It would be Joseph's word only. Not much of a leg to stand on.

Very true, but as I have gotten older I realized they were not just bearing witness of the words in the book, u how it came to be, the visions that come with this as well. This way it is not a "my word against his", but many, many, many shared visions; visions that would be necessary to help the Saints endure such sacrifices they would have to make latter on in these "Latter-days". The grave of every Saint buried along the "Mormon Trail", is a testimony to these shared visions and this shared cause. Also the sharing of these visions, helped lift all of the burden to rest solely on Joseph's back. Does this make any of us perfect; No! But it is a path that will one day lead to a perfect faith, a perfect organization...right now we are limited by our flaws. But one day the shared experience of all our faiths will free us of our flaws and make of worthy through the Grace of our Lord Jesus Christ...one day...one day!

[jkwilliams]

Again, my testimony is deeply rooted in the contents of the Book of Mormon, the effects it has had on my life, Joseph Smith as a prophet, seer, revealator, and a special witness of the Savior. But the Lord in his mercy, has given the law of witnesses. It was merciful to Joseph Smith who must have felt a profound sense of relief knowing that he no longer had to carry that burden on his own, and it was and is merciful to all those who have received a testimony of the divinity of the Book of Mormon of their own. It doesn't enhance that testimony, but it does strengthen it.

Thanks for that. If I understand you right, it was more unloading a burden from Joseph Smith than an important pillar of testimony, though it is an enhancement to you personally. Is that it?

[omni]

The problem is that some of those witnesses revoked that veracity.

http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon/Witnesses/Strangite_parallels

Having read both the differences are profound and many. While the similarities are superficial, tenuous and few.

http://www.fairlds.org/authors/misc/ask-the-apologist-solomon-spaulding-and-the-book-of-mormon

Yes for the Plates of Laban, but I was referring to the Plates of Voree that he originally translated. The witnesses testified of digging them up themselves and finding undisturbed dirt and roots growing over the stone box covering the plates. Strang also allowed hundreds of people to examine the plates, including non

-Mormons.

The FAIR link interestingly enough failed to mention anything about the witnesses statements regarding Spalding that were published in Mormonism Unveiled and were never recanted.

Once again I'm not trying to prove Strang was a prophet or that the BoM came from Spalding, just pointing out there have been other witnesses involving early church history.