Three And Eight Witnesses

[jkwilliams]

Angelophany, not angelophony, Scott. 

I thought he was talking about hearing the voice of an angel and thought that was quite clever.

[thesometimesaint]

FWIW, I see Joseph Smith pretty simply as an example of the human capacity to rationalize. Years ago Dale Broadhurst and I were talking about this very issue, though it was a discussion about Joseph and Sidney Rigdon working together. I said that some things make sense if he were a conscious fraud, and others seem more understandable if he were really sincere. I said I couldn't quite figure out what Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon were doing. Dale replied: "They were doing two things at once: they were building up the kingdom of God on earth, and they were running a scam."

At the time that answer was baffling to me, but after pondering it a lot, I have come to agree with Dale. On some level they knew that they were making it up as they went, but at the same time they rationalized that what they were doing would establish the kingdom of God on earth. To this day, that is the only explanation I can think of that explains everything.

 

That is oxymorionic. You can't build up the Kingdom of God through fraud.

[jkwilliams]

That is oxymorionic. You can't build up the Kingdom of God through fraud.

 

Never underestimate the human capacity to rationalize.

[thesometimesaint]

Never underestimate the human capacity to rationalize.

 

I have over 6 years of formal training in knowing about that "interesting" capacity, and more years than I like to think about seeing it in myself.  But that being said it is still oxymoronic to claim both at the same time. Within the context of the discussion self deception only goes so far, and then falls apart rather quickly once others are brought into the deception. These eleven men, and unofficially more men and women, bore witness to the end of their days of what they experienced. Not one repudiated that witness even when it would be to their advantage to do so.

 

I didn't become a member of the Church because of their witness. I did because of my own. Theirs was like added frosting on the cake.

[Avatar4321]

FWIW, I see Joseph Smith pretty simply as an example of the human capacity to rationalize. Years ago Dale Broadhurst and I were talking about this very issue, though it was a discussion about Joseph and Sidney Rigdon working together. I said that some things make sense if he were a conscious fraud, and others seem more understandable if he were really sincere. I said I couldn't quite figure out what Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon were doing. Dale replied: "They were doing two things at once: they were building up the kingdom of God on earth, and they were running a scam."

At the time that answer was baffling to me, but after pondering it a lot, I have come to agree with Dale. On some level they knew that they were making it up as they went, but at the same time they rationalized that what they were doing would establish the kingdom of God on earth. To this day, that is the only explanation I can think of that explains everything.

 

So they sincerely thought they were building the Kingdom of God while simultaneously knowing they were scamming people?

 

I guess that's one way to rationalize away the fact that they were sincere while still trying to argue that they were frauds. Personally it seems alittle too contrived.