Nephi'S Beheading Of Laban

[Stone holm]

The man had been whipped by R. Shila for sleeping with a gentile woman. The man decided to inform upon the rabbi to the Persian authorities that he had applied punishment without sanction, so R. Shila put him to death to prevent that. The Talmudic discussion cites the principle of preempting those who would seek your life (pursuers), by killing them first. The whole history of silencing informers is a dark, but fascinating and little-known subject in Judaism. It lasted well into the 19th century, with victims perhaps numbering in the hundreds throughout Eastern Europe. These secret Jewish courts form the historical kernel of what would later be used for that vile fabrication- the Protocols of the Elders of Zion.

I would have thought the Jews to have been more sophisticated in their approach to silencing informers and dissidents, am disappointed. We are much more sophisticated.

[volgadon]

I would have thought the Jews to have been more sophisticated in their approach to silencing informers and dissidents, am disappointed. We are much more sophisticated.

When you have people that inform on the community to the authorities, who then impose crippling financial penalties and implement restrictions affecting both social and religious aspects of life, what do you expect? Often, those involved would be beaten and tortured, too. Then there were the informers that blackmailed the community, if they were not paid handsomely, then things would revert to the first scenario. There was also in the Russian Empire a little thing called the cantonist decree. Jewish children at the age of twelve (though many much younger were frequently included) were forcibly consripted into the army to meet a steep quota, where they would serve for over thirty years! The children were compelled to abandon their Jewish faith and become Russian Orthodox instead. Hundreds died before reaching maturity, and even among those that survived, few ever saw their families again. Some families even lost all of their sons that way. To limit the impact of the decree, the Jewish communities employed various tactics, mainly falsifying statistical data, and heavily bribing local authorities. An informer could come along and alert higher authorities to the fact that something was amiss. Revert back to the first scenario, and a ruined community. Who would be "sophisticated?"

[canard78]

Yes, men are sealed to men now btw as fathers and sons.

Sealings weren't seen in quite the same way, it wasn't until late 1800s that a revelation was received that instructed the Church to start sealing people to their own parents and not to church leaders.

Lightbulb moment... I'm sealed to several women too. My wife, my mother, my daughter.

(Sorry, thread jack).

[Questing Beast]

Laban had taken the family's wealth that they offered him in payment...and then he reneged on his agreement. The burglary was Laban's, he had agreed to give them to Lehi' family and then refused and kept their money and attempted to take their lives. The murder during a burglary was Laban's as well.

No way was what Nephi did to Laban caused by Laban. If Nephi and his brothers had left after being robbed, their departure would not have been caused by Laban either. Laban's alcoholism led directly to Nephi's "opportunity". "I give unto men their weaknesses that they may be humble(d)", so "God" is the one to blame here, knowing the end from the beginning, knowing that despite getting the records the Nephites would "dwindle in unbelief" throughout their violent history. The story is disturbing on several levels without you trying to justify it....

[volgadon]

No way was what Nephi did to Laban caused by Laban. If Nephi and his brothers had left after being robbed, their departure would not have been caused by Laban either. Laban's alcoholism led directly to Nephi's "opportunity". "I give unto men their weaknesses that they may be humble(d)", so "God" is the one to blame here, knowing the end from the beginning, knowing that despite getting the records the Nephites would "dwindle in unbelief" throughout their violent history. The story is disturbing on several levels without you trying to justify it....

So, if they had departed as a result of being robbed, that still would have nothing to do with the person who robbed them? So, how exactly does one set in motion a train of events, without setting in motion a train of events?

[Sleeper Cell]

It's exactly this type of "obedience" that I find so scary and creepy. It's Dan and Ron Lafferty-style obedience. It's Isaac C. Haight-style obedience. And this is what we teach in our church and CES manuals?

And sometimes, people who follow the dictates of their own conscience without revelation from God also do horrible things. Do you find “men of conscience,” per se, to be scary and creepy?

Nephi didn’t rely on revelation from God alone, or on his own conscience alone, or on “reason” alone. He refused to act until he could reconcile all three.

[cdowis]

Can the Eternal Lawgiver be subject to judgement by mortal legal administrators?

I want to state the obvious that everybody knows ==>> it really comes down to whether the Book of Mormon comes from Divinity.

Edited August 11, 2013 by cdowis

[thesometimesaint]

Can the Eternal Lawgiver be subject to judgement by mortal legal administrators?

I want to state the obvious that everybody knows ==>> it really comes down to whether the Book of Mormon comes from Divinity.

I believe it came from the hand of Moroni. A Divinely inspired prophet of God.

[Questing Beast]

A "train of events" is nothing more or less than a series of free will choices. Nobody makes anybody do anything. "God" does not play that game either, which is the whole point of free will. We choose, we act. At any point an individual choosing an act causes a completely different "train of events" from that moment of decision and action....

[Bikeemikey]

Yes, men are sealed to men now btw as fathers and sons.

Sealings weren't seen in quite the same way, it wasn't until late 1800s that a revelation was received that instructed the Church to start sealing people to their own parents and not to church leaders.

Can you CFR this late 1800's revelation please.

[Bikeemikey]

You're still attempting to superimpose 21st-century laws, norms, and mores onto an incident that reportedly occurred circa 600 BCE.

No he's not... He's asking a question about how we would respond today if a similar event were to occur.

[GingerRed]

I look at it this way...Laban had TWO chances to reliquish the plates and live! He had to be stupid and greedy and CHOSE to go against Gods chosen people, and take the wrong way out. He is partly responsible for his own death. If he had just cooperated and took the money and gave them the plates, when he had the chance, he would have lived.

[ksfisher]

Can you CFR this late 1800's revelation please.

Wilford Woodruff April, 1894 general conference.

"When I went before the Lord to know who I should be adopted to (we were then being adopted to prophets and apostles), the Spirit of God said to me, "Have you not a father, who begot you?" "Yes, I have." "Then why not honor him? Why not be adopted to him?" "Yes," says I, "that is right." I was adopted to my father, and should have had my father sealed to his father, and so on back"

Full talk and more details here: http://scottwoodward.org/Talks/html/Woodruff,%20Wilford/WoodruffW_LawOfAdoption.html

[Cobalt-70]

Is there a type of obedience that you do not find scary?

The kind that doesn't require one to commit cold, calculated homicide in God's name, not to mention the burglary and kidnapping.

[Calm]

Wilford Woodruff April, 1894 general conference.

"When I went before the Lord to know who I should be adopted to (we were then being adopted to prophets and apostles), the Spirit of God said to me, "Have you not a father, who begot you?" "Yes, I have." "Then why not honor him? Why not be adopted to him?" "Yes," says I, "that is right." I was adopted to my father, and should have had my father sealed to his father, and so on back"

Full talk and more details here: http://scottwoodward...OfAdoption.html

Thank you, I am not in the mood to look up cites today. It is also in the intro section of the WW Teachings of the Presidents manual, iirc...if not there, then in the lesson part itself.

[Cobalt-70]

I look at it this way...Laban had TWO chances to reliquish the plates and live! He had to be stupid and greedy and CHOSE to go against Gods chosen people, and take the wrong way out. He is partly responsible for his own death. If he had just cooperated and took the money and gave them the plates, when he had the chance, he would have lived.

You're just blaming the victim. Nobody deserves to be murdered in cold blood, no matter what they've done.

[volgadon]

You're just blaming the victim. Nobody deserves to be murdered in cold blood, no matter what they've done.

Could we move beyond buzzwords to discuss some of your specific claims?

[Kenngo1969]

Cobalt, I wonder ... if you have the chance to meet Laban on the other side, will you be so truly impressed with him then that he will have merited the impassioned defense you have mounted of him on this thread ... while, conversely, if you have the chance to meet Nephi, will you be so truly unimpressed with him that he will have merited your condemnation? I have my doubts, but I guess that, in the end, we'll just have to wait and see.

[volgadon]

Cobalt, I wonder ... if you have the chance to meet Laban on the other side, will you be so truly impressed with him then that he will have merited the impassioned defense you have mounted of him on this thread ... while, conversely, if you have the chance to meet Nephi, will you be so truly unimpressed with him that he will have merited your condemnation? I have my doubts, but I guess that, in the end, we'll just have to wait and see.

SIlly rabbit, one doesn't meet fictional characters in the afterlife!

[Cobalt-70]

Cobalt, I wonder ... if you have the chance to meet Laban on the other side, will you be so truly impressed with him then that he will have merited the impassioned defense you have mounted of him on this thread ... while, conversely, if you have the chance to meet Nephi, will you be so truly unimpressed with him that he will have merited your condemnation? I have my doubts, but I guess that, in the end, we'll just have to wait and see.

Nephi was, in large measure, a surrogate for Joseph Smith himself. If I were to meet Smith, I couldn't help but be impressed, despite his flaws--even if he was, for example, involved with the attempted assassination of Gov. Boggs. On the other hand, I'm sure that I would not be much impressed with Boggs. But no matter what Boggs did, I would never, ever condone his murder.

[thesometimesaint]

No he's not... He's asking a question about how we would respond today if a similar event were to occur.

I would think long and hard about it. Simply because we do have formal governmental structures to deal with thieves, and those that attempt murder. Jerusalem of 600 BCE was rapidly becoming a lawless corrupt place. Lehi fled with his family, and they didn't leave a forwwarding address.

[Kenngo1969]

SIlly rabbit, one doesn't meet fictional characters in the afterlife!

Touche! (I wonder, though, since these guys are simply fictional characters [at least in his mind], why Cobalt is so worked up about the story. I'm not aware of any devout members of the Church of Jesus Christ who are of sound mind who have used the "Because-God-told-me-to" and "Nephi-got-away-with-it-so-I-figured-I-could-too" excuses ... )

Edited August 12, 2013 by Kenngo1969

[Glenn101]

The kind that doesn't require one to commit cold, calculated homicide in God's name, not to mention the burglary and kidnapping.

Then, you would be okay with practicing polygamy and with being sealed to the wives of other men for eternity if the Lord so commanded???

[Calm]

You're just blaming the victim. Nobody deserves to be murdered in cold blood, no matter what they've done.

"cold blood" describes a very different situation that what was described in the verses in my opinion. "Cold blood" implies at the very least there is no emotions involved, no hesitation over scruples, etc. etc.

http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/in+cold+blood

in cold blood

Fig. without feeling; with cruel intent. (Frequently said of a crime, especially murder.) The killer walked up and shot the woman in cold blood. How insulting! For a person to say something like that in cold blood is just horrible.

Edited August 12, 2013 by calmoriah

[Robert F. Smith]

Martin Abegg, “Paul, ‘Works of the Law’ and MMT,” in Paul, Jewish Law, and Early Christianity, ed. M. Warker (Wash., DC: BAS, 2012), 28 (re Numbers 25:1-,

When Phinehas the priest catches an Israelite in flagrante delicto with a foreign woman, he spears the couple through their bellies with a single spear. And the plague is lifted. For his deed, we are told in Psalm 106, Phinehas was regarded as eternally righteous:

“Then Phinehas stood up and interposed;

And so the plague was stayed.

And it was reckoned to him as righteousness,

from generation to generation forever.”

(Psalm 106:30–31)

Should we give equal time to condemnation of the priest Phineas for this horrible execution? As much time as we devote to condemning Nephi?