Nephi'S Beheading Of Laban

[The Nehor]

I thought there wasn't suppose to be the water thingy again, thought it was suppose to be more like Hiroshima and Nagasaki this time around.

God is nuking the planet from orbit?

Awesome!!!!!

[Questing Beast]

Yes, that's why you pay tithing, so you won't be burned. It's sometimes cutely called "fire insurance"....

[The Nehor]

Yes, that's why you pay tithing, so you won't be burned. It's sometimes cutely called "fire insurance"....

Oddly I read this while calculating my tithing. So does net prevent burning because I want to pay tithing so I can be exalted but kind of think being incinerated might be a fun way to go.

[Cobalt-70]

If you read Nephi's beheading of Laban in light of Deuteronomy 19:16-19 then there is nothing shocking or controversial about it. Laban beared false witness, branded Nephi's brother, Laman, a robber and attempted to have him killed, therefore under the Law Laban deserved to be put to death. As it was God's Law, and God, through the angel, ordered Nephi to do it, where's the problem?

Even under biblical law, vigilante killing, theft, and kidnapping was not tolerated. Civilization could not exist if it were legal to go around killing people who "deserved to die." It is the sovereign, or the judges, who make that determination.

[Cobalt-70]

But by using pejorative terms like taking the law into his own hands, cold blood, impersonate, steal, kidnap, vigilante murder, and theft, perhaps the poster is accusing Joseph Smith of being consciously or subconsciously motivated by a need to express and justify criminal urges under the guise of religion, and not by the Spirit of God.

No, I think it just expresses Smith's personal philosophy, which was extraordinarily relativistic. He said, later, that he thought that moral right and wrong depends on the context, and that religious law supersedes secular law. This was part of the justification for polygamy and other extra-legal Mormon activities carried out in the name of a higher purpose, as well as "lying for the Lord." It may have even played a part in the translation of the Book of Mormon, if you assume that he was consciously aware that it was fiction (though I'm not necessarily convinced he was so aware).

[Cobalt-70]

I was just reading through some of the articles y'all suggested, and I find it rather telling that while he did kill Laban, he did not kill Zoram. If his sole and only object was to get away with the plates, or revenge, or any other selfish reason that might be ascribed as to Laban's murder--as soon as Zoram had shown him where the plates were, Nephi could have disposed of him. It was quite a risk to offer Zoram a place to live with them, to bind him by a promise instead of just doing the easy thing and killing him.

I don't think the Laban story was about revenge. It was about exigency. But they did kidnap Zoram, and they would apparently have murdered him, as well, if he did not swear an oath not to run away. Once Nephi committed down that dark path, they had to do whatever was necessary to see it through.

[strappinglad]

I remember Nibley commenting on the extraordinary power of an oath in Nephi's day. Such an oath, if given in today's society, wouldn't carry the value of the air that was used to speak it.

[strappinglad]

It can be noted that the descendants of Zoram apparently had no love for the Nephite leadership and traditions.

[Calm]

It can be noted that the descendants of Zoram apparently had no love for the Nephite leadership and traditions.

Were they actually descendants or did they just identify themselves as such?

[cdowis]

No, I think it just expresses Smith's personal philosophy, which was extraordinarily relativistic.

So he approved of beheading those who disagree with him?

[ksfisher]

It can be noted that the descendants of Zoram apparently had no love for the Nephite leadership and traditions.

The Zoramites, who appear in Alma 30, were led by a man named Zoram. Jacob 1 mentions that the descendants of the Zoram who came from Jerusalem were called Zoramites. Mormon makes no attempt to connect these two groups called Zoramites as being related.

[thesometimesaint]

I thought there wasn't suppose to be the water thingy again, thought it was suppose to be more like Hiroshima and Nagasaki this time around.

Depends on if it is a world wide flood or a regional albeit massive flood in the area I am living in.

[thesometimesaint]

Even under biblical law, vigilante killing, theft, and kidnapping was not tolerated. Civilization could not exist if it were legal to go around killing people who "deserved to die." It is the sovereign, or the judges, who make that determination.

No Saint that I know is claiming that tthe slaying of Laban was a vigilante killing. I do know many that claim it was self defense.

[thesometimesaint]

No, I think it just expresses Smith's personal philosophy, which was extraordinarily relativistic. He said, later, that he thought that moral right and wrong depends on the context, and that religious law supersedes secular law. This was part of the justification for polygamy and other extra-legal Mormon activities carried out in the name of a higher purpose, as well as "lying for the Lord." It may have even played a part in the translation of the Book of Mormon, if you assume that he was consciously aware that it was fiction (though I'm not necessarily convinced he was so aware).

See Article of Faith # 12: We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.

Actually they are relative. We(citizens of the US) generally assume that laws against killing are moraly right. However we(citizens of the US) also allow for self defense, including actions that end in death.

We don't know to what rights the Sealing carried with it, but there is no indications that it included marriage rights. Add in that JS was also Sealed to men. The idea that it did include marriage rights becomes problematic. BY OTOH engaged in polygamy, but that was when he was outside the jurisdiction of the US.

The phrase Lying for the Lord is a pagorative devised by Anti-Mormons to impugn the motives and beliefs of the LDS. I had thought better of you.

The Book of Mormon is either a deliberate fraud, or it is as JS described it. There is no middle ground.

See statements of the witnesses.

Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That we, through the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, have seen the plates which contain this record, which is a record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanites, their brethren, and also of the people of Jared, who came from the tower of which hath been spoken. And we also know that they have been translated by the gift and power of God, for his voice hath declared it unto us; wherefore we know of a

surety that the work is true. And we also testify that we have seen the engravings which are upon the plates; and they have been shown unto us by the power of God, and not of man. And we declare with words of soberness, that an angel of God came down from heaven, and he brought and laid before our eyes, that we beheld and saw the plates, and the engravings thereon; and we know that it is by the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, that we beheld and bear record that these things are true. And it is marvelous in our eyes. Nevertheless, the voice of the Lord commanded us that we should bear record of it; wherefore, to be obedient unto the commandments of God, we bear testimony of these things. And we know that if we are faithful in Christ, we shall rid our garments of the blood of all men, and be found spotless before the judgment-seat of Christ, and shall dwell with him eternally in the heavens. And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen.

Oliver Cowdery

David Whitmer

Martin Harris

Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That we, through the grace of God the Father, and our Lord

Jesus Christ, have seen the plates which contain this record, which is a record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanites, their brethren, and also of the people of Jared, who came from the tower of which hath been spoken. And we also know that they have been translated by the gift and power of God, for his voice hath declared it unto us; wherefore we know of a surety that the work is true. And we also testify that we have seen the engravings which are upon the plates; and they have been shown unto us by the power of God, and not of man. And we declare with words of soberness, that an angel of God came down from heaven, and he brought and laid before our eyes, that we beheld and saw the plates, and the engravings thereon; and we know that it is by the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, that we beheld and bear record that these things are true. And it is marvelous in our eyes. Nevertheless, the voice of the Lord commanded us that we should bear record of it; wherefore, to be obedient unto the commandments of God, we bear testimony of these things. And we know that if we are faithful in Christ, we shall rid our garments of the blood of all men, and be found spotless before the judgment-seat of Christ, and shall dwell with him eternally in the heavens. And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen.

translator of this work, has shown unto us the plates of which hath been spoken, which have the appearance of gold; and as many of the leaves as the said Smith has translated we did handle with our hands; and we also saw the engravings thereon, all of which has the appearance of ancient work, and of curious workmanship. And this we bear record with words of soberness, that the said Smith has shown unto us, for we have seen and hefted, and know of a surety that the said Smith has got the plates of which we have spoken. And we give our names unto the world, to witness unto the world that which we have seen. And we lie not, God bearing witness of it.

Christian Whitmer

Jacob Whitmer

Peter Whitmer, Jun.

John Whitmer

Hiram Page

Joseph Smith, Sen.

Hyrum Smith

Samuel H. Smith

Edited August 6, 2013 by thesometimesaint

[Stone holm]

Oddly I read this while calculating my tithing. So does net prevent burning because I want to pay tithing so I can be exalted but kind of think being incinerated might be a fun way to go.

How much fun can anything be that lasts a nano second to dissolve you into radioactive elements?

[Dan Vogel]

Very astute observations by both of you! As Rene Girard has pointed out (especially on his visit to BYU many years ago), violence and the sacred go together. The thing about the Bible and the Book of Mormon is that they unmask naivete about the true nature of violence as a brutal scapegoat mechanism. Unlike the histories of other cultures, the Bible and Book of Mormon tell it warts & all. Violence is not glorified and the prophetic word is harshly condemnatory. See Rene Girard, Violence and the Sacred (1977); Robert North, "Violence and the Bible: The Girard Connection," Catholic Biblical Quarterly, 47 (1985), 1-27.

Joe Spencer's An Other Testament is brilliant.

Of course, Joseph Smith never considered the killing of Laban a foundational myth, unless he was the kind of super-sophisticate that Dan Vogel seems to think he was.

For the record, I never said the beheading was a foundational myth, only that it seems to reflect pious rationalization.

[Dan Vogel]

thesometimesaint,

The phrase Lying for the Lord is a pagorative devised by Anti-Mormons to impugn the motives and beliefs of the LDS. I had thought better of you.

On the contrary, the first time I heard it, this phrase came from Mormon discussions (e.g., Carmon Hardy) of lying about polygamy after the Manifesto was issued.

[volgadon]

How much fun can anything be that lasts a nano second to dissolve you into radioactive elements?

[Cobalt-70]

No Saint that I know is claiming that tthe slaying of Laban was a vigilante killing. I do know many that claim it was self defense.

It wasn't self-defense. We know this because we know the exact, cold-blooded logic of balancing end versus means that went through his mind as he was debating whether to decapitate the passed-out man lying before him.

[Cobalt-70]

So he approved of beheading those who disagree with him?

He did for those, like Laban, whom he considered guilty of theft. He once said in general conference, that he would "wring a thief's neck off if I can find him. If I cannot bring him to justice any other way." (April 6, 1843 General Conference minutes, LDS Archives, quoted by Quinn, Mormon Hierarchy: Extensions of Power, 1997, p. 531, n. 140).

[Cobalt-70]

The Book of Mormon is either a deliberate fraud, or it is as JS described it. There is no middle ground.

Well, there is middle ground, and the majority of Mormons already inhabit that middle ground. For example, Mormons no longer officially believe that the Native Americans are, in general, Lamanites.

[canard78]

So he approved of beheading those who disagree with him?

That and lopping their arms off.

Maybe we should switch the name from "excommunicate" to "dismember." For all sorts of reasons

[canard78]

The Book of Mormon is either a deliberate fraud, or it is as JS described it. There is no middle ground.

(Imagine this said in a sing-song voice - almost like 'bing-bong): Nonsense.

Even an apostle disagrees with you:

Elder Holland, 2007, PBS interview for 'The Mormons':

PBS: [You say] there are stark choices in beliefs about the origins of the book. Explain why there's no middle way.

Elder Holland: ... If someone can find something in the Book of Mormon, anything that they love or respond to or find dear, I applaud that and say more power to you. That's what I find, too. And that should not in any way discount somebody's liking a passage here or a passage there or the whole idea of the book, but not agreeing to its origin, its divinity. ...

I think you'd be as aware as I am that that we have many people who are members of the church who do not have some burning conviction as to its origins, who have some other feeling about it that is not as committed to foundational statements and the premises of Mormonism. But we're not going to invite somebody out of the church over that any more than we would anything else about degrees of belief or steps of hope or steps of conviction. ... We would say: "This is the way I see it, and this is the faith I have; this is the foundation on which I'm going forward. If I can help you work toward that I'd be glad to, but I don't love you less; I don't distance you more; I don't say you're unacceptable to me as a person or even as a Latter-day Saint if you can't make that step or move to the beat of that drum." ... We really don't want to sound smug. We don't want to seem uncompromising and insensitive.

http://www.pbs.org/mormons/interviews/holland.html

Just because you find no middle ground doesn't mean others can't.

[Samlam]

I would add a couple things, Cucumber. Welch points out that 1. Nephi originally shrank from slaying Laban; and 2. Being commanded of God was considered, at least in part if not totally, to be "legal cover" (my phrase; that is, it makes what otherwise would be an unjustifiable act justifiable).

There is much more going on here that the little tiny outline I posted. According to a Jerusalem Artichoke I know, the biggest thing happening here is a transfer of firstborn birthright from Laman to Nephi according to Jewish principles but that is for another time. If we take the angle you suggest there is perhaps a better method of analysis and Nephi provides the clue in a term that shows up three times in the dialogue.

1 Nephi 4:11-12,17

11 And the Spirit said unto me again: Behold the Lord hath delivered him into thy hands. Yea, and I also knew that he had sought to take away mine own life; yea, and he would not hearken unto the commandments of the Lord; and he also had taken away our property.

12 And it came to pass that the Spirit said unto me again: Slay him, for the Lord hath delivered him into thy hands;

17 And again, I knew that the Lord had delivered Laban into my hands for this cause—that I might obtain the records according to his commandments.

Nephi references the statement of delivering into his hands as part of process of persuasion that facilitated determination to obey the commandments. Perhaps one could say that a commandment of God is “legal cover” but actually I think there is more to it than that and Nephi is in the process of doing a standards check to make sure this is consistent with the patterns God has established. If Nephi had not of found the pattern that the spirit led him too I suspect he might have found cause to question whether this was actually of God – and been justified in doing so as God does not violate his own laws. In order for Nephi to execute Laban he has to understand that the principles of the execution are consistent with how God does things.

To be brief: Nephi admits killing is new to him, and the burden he perhaps is negotiating is thou shalt not kill. Nephi knows the scriptures though and three times reminds him of this set of verses:

Exodus 12:12-14

12 He that smiteth a man, so that he die, shall be surely put to death.

13 And if a man lie not in wait, but God deliver him into his hand; then I will appoint thee a place whither he shall flee.

14 But if a man come presumptuously upon his neighbour, to slay him with guile; thou shalt take him from mine altar, that he may die.

Were guile the state of Nephi’s heart the only valid judgment would have been that he was worthy of death for slaying Laban. However, if God delivers Laban into his hands and appoints him a “promised land” to flee too, as in the case of Nephi, he is not judged as a murderer. He is required to obey the commandment, as also has been pointed out earlier and fulfill the implications of having someone delivered into his hands. The spirit has brought to his remembrance a concept of which Nephi is fully aware, just as God promises the spirit will do from time to time in our own lives. This is a very stern presentation of comforting perspective because it is indeed an extremely weighty moment but Nephi intelligently reflects upon the principle and confirms his understanding of what the spirit is telling him. Again the spirit is a comforter and the spirit is trying to comfort Nephi in a very difficult situation and Nephi is comforted by understanding exactly where he is at the moment with a man’s life hanging in the balance and potentially his own salvation.

Notice how well Exodus addresses all of Nephi concerns. He states he is worried about killing a man. Exodus says it’s wrong and validates Nephi’s hesitancy and it makes sense he should be worried about it. However, Exodus says there is one caveat that makes it right – if the Lord should deliver someone into your hands; not only that but the proof of this delivery is that the Lord will appoint a place to which to flee. Well, Nephi has already been appointed somewhere to flee too. He is on his way there even now and is getting the plates as an integral part of that journey. It is marvelous to me, this perfect intertwining of scripture and finally Nephi gives credence to the spirit’s encouragement by mentioning among other things that he knows the spirit has properly addressed his very first concern by pointing out that Laban has been delivered into his hand.

[Samlam]

I guess since I am just a young cucumber and not a pickle I do not get to edit my posts. So to correct my typing I have to insert another post…oh well if it tastes like vinegar it’s good for my aging process…

This:

Nephi knows the scriptures though and three times reminds him of this set of verses:

Should have read: Nephi knows the scriptures though and three times the Spirit reminds him of this set of verses: