City Creek Mall

[Tacenda]

My gossip alarm just went off.

I know Uhtdorf, Monson, Holland and a couple of others have homes in Heber and Midway. And why would the employee lie. It may not have been often. I'm just making a point that it must not be that big of deal. In fact growing up my family would go to church and then drive to Salt Lake to Don Ho's (I think that's the name, it was Chinese food) for Sunday Dinner. A little less rigid back then, unless I'm totally off my marker here.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Not only was it never substantiated, it was explicitly denied. From the general conference pulpit.

You know, that is the interesting part about it all. It was denied yet people insisted that they were being used. It really was the oddest critisism of the mall. Yet I kept seeing it over and over.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Perhaps I'm oversensitive.

It's ok. I too get that way (esp when it is something even slightly political). Not claiming you are either. After spending a boat load of time on this board and then sitting back for a bit I learned (surprised it took me so long) that some times it is very very hard to tell what people are actually saying. And that if you talked with the person face to face and they said the same thing I am willing to bet you or I would walk away with an entirely different understanding of what they were saying. Edited July 16, 2013 by Mola Ram Suda Ram

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I know Uhtdorf, Monson, Holland and a couple of others have homes in Heber and Midway. And why would the employee lie. It may not have been often. I'm just making a point that it must not be that big of deal. In fact growing up my family would go to church and then drive to Salt Lake to Don Ho's (I think that's the name, it was Chinese food) for Sunday Dinner. A little less rigid back then, unless I'm totally off my marker here.

Guess it depends on how you were raised?

[Sleeper Cell]

If the criticism was that the Church would lose money on this investment, then those critics might be eating crow. I do not believe, however, that this was the criticism being made. I think the criticisms were two-fold:

1. A lack of transparency as to where the investment dollars came from; and

2. Using money for this kind of commercial venture rather than using that same money to do something that looked a bit more "Christian."

[emphasis added].

What do those critics expect from a “non-Christian cult?”

[Calm]

If the criticism was that the Church would lose money on this investment

I heard a number of critics claim that the Church would lose money...stated the rental units of the housing project weren't being filled, that the mall was empty, etc. used the 5 billion dollar cost just for the mall for comparison didn't help since that was actually for the whole project, not just the mall.

[Calm]

Thank you for those details. I'm not really into shopping, either, but I like nice places to go for things and someone mentioned something about some nice restaurants. Probably has a food court too, I suppose. Maybe also a movie theatre, or one close by? I'd like to check it out sometime, and I like knowing it's all downtown close to Temple Square.

If you are into architectural engineering the roof and creek have been written up as cutting edge, award winning (IIRC) construction projects. Very interesting reading the various difficulties that went into construction of the whole mall.

[Calm]

I seem to recall it being made but it was never a central critisism.

Depends on where one was reading, I suspect.

[Tacenda]

I heard a number of critics claim that the Church would lose money...stated the rental units of the housing project weren't being filled, that the mall was empty, etc. used the 5 billion dollar cost just for the mall for comparison didn't help since that was actually for the whole project, not just the mall.

My daughter is a leasing agent and works in the office for City Creek. I'll ask her tonight, she has been helping me at the gym almost every night to get in shape.

[bluebell]

If you are into architectural engineering the roof and creek have been written up as cutting edge, award winning (IIRC) construction projects. Very interesting reading the various difficulties that went into construction of the whole mall.

I think it's fun that the creek has live trout in it. That's a nice touch.

[Questing Beast]

I'm a local Valley person, but have only visited City Creek mall once, rather briefly at that. I liked the atmosphere, and yes the creek running down the center of the walkways is very cool. But the shopping interests are lacking so I can't assess the collection of businesses as good, poor or indifferent. Personally, I saw no stores that I was interested in checking out, and I rarely eat out at mall food courts either. So "the Church" isn't going to make any money off me!...

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Depends on where one was reading, I suspect.

That much is true too. It boils down to what perspective you have. Edited July 16, 2013 by Mola Ram Suda Ram

[Storm Rider]

The article provided by the OP only speaks to economic impacts on SLC.

From a strictly economic position, wouldn't one also need to look at the ROI to objectively determine the value of the investment?

No, I don't think so. The first place to look is what was the objective of the investment. In the world of investments you have everything from social investing to pure return - return on income and capital appreciation. Had this investment not occurred I can tell you now that every building in downtown SLC would be worth much less than it is today, including every building the Church owns.

[canard78]

Yes it does. Money is good for nothing unless it is spent, and I'm sure there are lots of good things in that mall to spend money buying on top of what that money has already done. The words "revitalized downtown" were all I needed to hear.

The church has invested its resources in looking after SLC. Making sure everything looks nice.

Money is indeed good for nothing if not spent. But I'd prefer church resources were spent on projects that were really meaningful and would make a difference to the genuinely poor of the world.

Ironic that they celebrate making 2,000 new jobs in SLC when they fired cleaners all around the world, often in areas where employment was very hard to secure.

Edited July 16, 2013 by canard78

[rockpond]

No, I don't think so. The first place to look is what was the objective of the investment. In the world of investments you have everything from social investing to pure return - return on income and capital appreciation. Had this investment not occurred I can tell you now that every building in downtown SLC would be worth much less than it is today, including every building the Church owns.

True... but if you are really going to economically assess the value of the investment, you'd need to know if that capital appreciation made up for the cost of the investment.

[Danzo]

Ironic that they celebrate making 2,000 new jobs in SLC when they fired cleaners all around the world, often in areas where employment was very hard to secure.

What does that have to do with the discussion?

[rockpond]

What does that have to do with the discussion?

That IS the discussion! That's what the article is saying: look what a success, it created all these jobs. Yay.

[Ahab]

The church has investing its resources in looking after SLC. Making sure everything looks nice.

That's nice, and a good thing to spend money on.

Money is indeed good for nothing if not spent. But I'd prefer church resources were spent on projects that were really meaningful and would make a difference to the genuinely poor of the world.

I think you may not fully realize the power there is in "shopping". The best thing to do with money is to get rid of it by spending it, doing all that we can to circulate it as much as possible. The spending helps the money go to people in all levels of an economy, in all of the various markets for goods and services, otherwise the money would just sit around somewhere not doing any real good, and all anyone needs to do to tap into the economy is to do something that other people can spend money on as they value the work of other people.

I know that just giving money away to people for basic necessities is a good thing to do in some situations, especially when people are starving or homeless, but we already have a good Fast Offering program to take care of those situations, so what we need more of are the long term solutions. People should do some kind of work to do something productive for society, rather than just siting or moping around asking for a handout, and "shopping" is the best way to spread the money around.

Thus the American motto: Work hard and you will be successful.

... needs amendment to add that we should also learn how to use and apply the money we earn.

Ironic that they celebrate making 2,000 new jobs in SLC when they fired cleaners all around the world, often in areas where employment was very hard to secure.

Yeah, well, nobody said the Church is perfect, or if they did they were wrong. The Church still has a long way to go to be perfect.

[Bikeemikey]

That IS the discussion! That's what the article is saying: look what a success, it created all these jobs. Yay.

Danzo probably didn't read the rest of the thread.

I agree that this is part to the broader question regarding the overall economic impact.

[Ahab]

That IS the discussion! That's what the article is saying: look what a success, it created all these jobs. Yay.

No, that's just a small part of it. The best thing the project did was revitalize the downtown area... including the area around but not part of the mall. It affects the whole town, basically.

Have you ever played Sim City? If the downtown area goes kaput, you might as well move out of town and live somewhere else. The downtown area is truly the "heart" of a city, and it should be vibrant and thriving.

[Tacenda]

No, that's just a small part of it. The best thing the project did was revitalize the downtown area... including the area around but not part of the mall. It affects the whole town, basically.

Have you ever played Sim City? If the downtown area goes kaput, you might as well move out of town and live somewhere else. The downtown area is truly the "heart" of a city, and it should be vibrant and thriving.

I can agree with this. But there is a possibility of it deteriorating or not getting the business down the road. I use to work downtown at Zions Bank when ZCMI and Crossroads Mall were at their peak, fun times, but sad that it put other stores around it out of business. And it did go down hill in business, and I remember they had problems with gangs and such hanging out there. If memory serves. Also, has the Gateway Mall had slower business since the CC Mall was opened? I've heard that it has. Hopefully both will serve the community well into the future, and that CC makes good profit to use where the Lord would want it to go.

[cinepro]

It does have a food court (which is indoors and very nice, as food courts go) as well as other restaurants. I don't know about a theater. I don't live in Utah and have only visited the mall once so i'm sure I missed a lot.

There is a movie theater just across the street at the former Hotel Utah. The selection leaves something to be desired, but the prices can't be beat.

[bluebell]

There is a movie theater just across the street at the former Hotel Utah. The selection leaves something to be desired, but the prices can't be beat.

I love that theater!! I go every time I get the chance.

[Danzo]

That IS the discussion! That's what the article is saying: look what a success, it created all these jobs. Yay.

Perhaps the reason they built the mall was to . . . .

Have a mall.

If the reason for building it was to create construction jobs, then why did they stop building?

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

This is from the KSL:

http://www.ksl.com/?sid=26009680&nid=148&title=city-creek-single-most-important-thing-to-happen-to-slc-in-50-years&fm=home_page&s_cid=featured-1

SALT LAKE CITY — City Creek Mall is getting some national attention. Business analysts call the recent development a good mix of business and religion.

Some are saying the mall is the best thing to happen to Salt Lake City in 50 years.

A recent New York Times article says the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints spent hundreds of millions of dollars on City Creek Mall. They analyzed whether or not the Church's investment paid off.

"(The) mall is the single most important thing to happen to Salt Lake City in 50 years, maybe more," Bruce Bingham, a partner with Hamilton Partners, a Chicago-based real estate developer, told The New York Times. "It revitalized downtown."

The mall opened a little more than a year ago and added 2,000 jobs, which brought more than 16 million visitors into downtown, according to a 2013 Economic Benchmark Report, paid for by the real estate firm CBRE.

The report also credits City Creek Mall with boosting downtown retail sales by 36 percent in 2012 — roughly $209 million.

Hamilton Partners also tells The New York Times that because of City Creek Mall's success and financial backing from the LDS Church, banks feel comfortable and safe doing commercial lending for new projects, at least with this development company.

(The) mall is the single most important thing to happen to Salt Lake City in 50 years, maybe more. It revitalized downtown.

–Bruce Bingham

"The Church put a whole bunch of people to work during a deep recession," said Church member Kevin Barney, 54, from Chicago. "For another thing, downtown Salt Lake City had become blighted, and that area is sort of like the Mormon Vatican. I think the Church had a responsibility to do something about it if it could."

Executive director of Salt Lake City's Downtown Alliance Jason Mathis said the mall has drawn positive and negative opinions.

"In this community," where amost 40 percent of the city's residents are Church members, "the LDS is such a powerful large entity, it will be more controversial and evoke strong feelings," he said. "But they're an interesting landlord. They're not worried about the next quarter. They have a much longer perspective than many other investors would have had. They want to know what the city will look like in the next 50 or 100 years."

Religious observance affects City Creek Mall. Unlike most shopping malls around the country, shops there, except restaurants, are closed on Sundays.

I think that the critics must be eating crow now about the Mall. It is obviously a success story and not a waste of money as the critics claimed when it opened. The lds church deserves much credit for this investment and the opportunity that the mall has provided for jobs not just for the mall but for downtown salt lake.

One of the greatest parables of the entire Bible is the story of the three servants and the talents...also we are commanded to be good stewards of the gifts and blessing we have. Also the profits from this mall (via the Prophets) will end up building Chapels, Temples, feeding the hungry and dressing the poor. Or maybe others think that money should just be in Banks earning min interest and the poor suffering as a result while churches are decaying over time...or maybe getting loans and being in perpetual debt?