City Creek Mall

[jim_mason]

Do we even know for sure that the mall project was sponsored by a profit based enterprise? I know trusts can be set up to fund projects and costs of operations without being considered profit based enterprises, according to tax law, even if the projects generate some income. Some hospitals, for example, are not considered profit based enterprises according to tax law, even though they can earn revenue to fund the costs of operations, even including building new buildings.

Are you suggesting that the Mall is not a for profit enterprise of the Church? I do not understand your comment in relation to mine.

[Ahab]

Really who cares, the point was to clean up the blighted area that private business had created and replace it with a fancy commercial district that would set off the Temple Square.

That was only a part of the plan. We also wanted to get more people to come downtown and enjoy spending their time there, having many nice places to visit and enjoy good scenery while making themselves comfortable and relatively relaxed and get something to eat or drink or wear if they want some of that. Then the mood would be good for the missionaries.

If you don't know, we have missionaries patrolling, er, uh, casually walking around downtown in and around the mall area looking for people to talk to about the Church, to get them interested, to make them members, to give us their money, and to encourage them to give money to others for the building up of both the poor and the rich on this Earth.

You need to have things to do with your time, right? And you occasionally need to go shopping to take care of some of your needs in this world? Well, we've got you covered.

City Creek Mall. A good place to go for lots of things.

[Calm]

That was only a part of the plan.....

Just for info:

https://www.lds.org/ensign/2006/12/news-of-the-church?lang=eng

Hopefully link will work now, if not, it is Dec 2006 Ensign, News of the Church and just announces the CCC and discusses what it entails.

Oh why not just post it...

Church Releases Plans for Downtown Salt Lake

Downtown Salt Lake City is getting a facelift. The blocks just south of Temple Square and the Church Administration Building will undergo five years of demolition and construction to make way for a 20-acre development the Church is tentatively calling City Creek Center.

The plan calls for an indoor-outdoor mix of retailers, residences, and office space, with six acres of open space—gardens, fountains, pedestrian walkways, and a mock City Creek running down the middle, roughly along what was once the actual stream’s historic south arm.

Bishop H. David Burton, Presiding Bishop of the Church, presented a conceptual design plan for the project to the Salt Lake City Council on October 4, 2006. Demolition of part of the site was set to begin in November. A progressive wave of demolition will move roughly west to east, followed by excavation and site preparation that will take about a year.

The Church first announced three years ago it was planning to redevelop the downtown area to energize the economy of the city that houses its headquarters and to bolster the area near Temple Square. No tithingfunds will be used in the redevelopment.

Bishop Burton shared with the city council design concepts of what the redeveloped blocks may look like, but stressed that final architectural plans will not be completed until 2007.

As outlined by Bishop Burton, the project will include:

• •
  Up to three national department stores to anchor a retail component that will include a complement of nationally recognized in-line retail tenants.
  
• •
  New, refurbished, and renamed office towers.
  
• •
  New residential buildings.
  
• •
  A full-service grocery store to serve a growing downtown population.
  
• •
  The reopening or extension of historic downtown streets as pedestrian walkways through two of the blocks—Richards Street, Regent Street, and Social Hall Avenue.
  
• •
  Fountains and man-made streams to represent the historic South Fork of City Creek, supplemented by approximately six acres of gardens and open space.
  
• •
  Underground parking to accommodate some 5,600 vehicles.
  

A downloadable schematic site plan showing proposed locations of retail, office, and residential space is available on the Internet atwww.downtownrising.com.

Edited July 17, 2013 by calmoriah

[Ahab]

Are you suggesting that the Mall is not a for profit enterprise of the Church? I do not understand your comment in relation to mine.

I thought you were saying the mall is a profit based enterprise, and while I know some of the stores are, the mall itself may not be because it could be set up to run something like a hospital, with a trust fund. Hospitals make money too, but they're not always run just to make a profit. The mall, itself, is simply a place where vendors/stores can set up shop to sell things, and the mall itself may not be meant to operate for profit.

[Ahab]

Just for info:

https://www.lds.org/...lake?lang=eng��

I got a page not found message. What do you want me to know?

[why me]

I kind of wish the defenders of the mall would get together and present a united front regarding the degree to which the Church was involved, the nature of their involvement, the origin of the funds used for the mall, and the purpose of LDS church's involvement in the project.

Ultimately, I understand the logic involved, but my brain just can't comprehend how you go from this:

to this:

Time moves on. I don't think that Christ was against shopping. I am sure that he needed to buy new clothing at times. As did his mother and father. Where would they go to buy their clothes or food? Also, Christ was Christ. He was the chosen son of God and he had his mission to do. And he did it. But no where in the bible do I read that he was against shopping or owning an extra pair of shoes.

[cinepro]

I think it would have been awesome if President Monson had stepped to the podium at the ribbon cutting and read this:

“Some forms of credit, such as credit cards, have particularly high interest rates. Once you are in debt, you find that interest has no mercy. It continues to accumulate, regardless of your situation—whether you are employed or jobless, healthy or sick. It never goes away until the debt is paid. Do not be deceived by credit offers, even if they make debt seem attractive by promising low interest rates or no interest for a certain period of time.

- See True to the Faith (2004), 48-49

That would have been awesome.

[cinepro]

Time moves on. I don't think that Christ was against shopping. I am sure that he needed to buy new clothing at times. As did his mother and father. Where would they go to buy their clothes or food? Also, Christ was Christ. He was the chosen son of God and he had his mission to do. And he did it. But no where in the bible do I read that he was against shopping or owning an extra pair of shoes.

So it's your understanding that if the moneychangers had been across the street from the Temple instead of in the courtyard, Jesus wouldn't have had a problem?

[Ahab]

I think it would have been awesome if President Monson had stepped to the podium at the ribbon cutting and read this:

That would have been awesome.

It's not too late. We could put up some nice signage by the entrance doors now. I'm going through Hell now to learn that lesson and I sure wish I had had more reminders about staying out of debt earlier. I know I heard the message several times but it just didn't sink in, and I know repetition can help us to learn and let a message sink in. Heck I'd even hang some flyers from the ceiling inside the mall area about staying out of debt. For those who aren't it would still be a good thing to keep in mind while they're shopping.

[Ahab]

So it's your understanding that if the moneychangers had been across the street from the Temple instead of in the courtyard, Jesus wouldn't have had a problem?

We have Deseret bookstores pretty close to a lot of the temples I'm familiar with, and we sell temple clothing on temple grounds. I don't think it's a problem unless the shops are inside of the temple, itself, like in the foyer or in one of the wings of the temple.

p.s. Oh and he had a particular problem with those "shop" owners because they were trying to make monetary profit from temple related activities.

Edited July 17, 2013 by Ahab

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

The Non-profit designation does not mean the business does not earn a profit but that the profits are used for the avowed non-profit purpose of the organization.

People also seek the designation for a whole other reason.

[Scott Lloyd]

I kind of wish the defenders of the mall would get together and present a united front regarding the degree to which the Church was involved, the nature of their involvement, the origin of the funds used for the mall, and the purpose of LDS church's involvement in the project.

Ultimately, I understand the logic involved, but my brain just can't comprehend how you go from this:

to this:

I can grasp it without problem in the context of this scriptural imagery:

14 And to ^anone else will I grant this power, to receive this same testimony among this generation, in this the beginning of the rising up and the coming forth of my ^bchurch out of the wilderness—clear as the ^cmoon, and fair as the sun, and terrible as an army with banners.

(Doctrine and Covenants 5:14)

I think when I was very young, I wondered how the Church of Jesus Christ could be viewed as "terrible." I have since observed the Mormonophobia in some quarters, manifested by resentment toward any evidence that the Church is prospering -- be it temples, the Conference Center or real estate holdings -- and have come to realize that some do seem to be terrified by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Edited July 17, 2013 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

Just for info:

https://www.lds.org/...lake?lang=eng��

Link doesn't work for me, cal.

[Scott Lloyd]

So it's your understanding that if the moneychangers had been across the street from the Temple instead of in the courtyard, Jesus wouldn't have had a problem?

I think he would have had a problem with brothels, bars and pawnshops -- or the ancient equivalent thereof -- which is what downtown Salt Lake was rapidly becoming.

[Stone holm]

Time moves on. I don't think that Christ was against shopping. I am sure that he needed to buy new clothing at times. As did his mother and father. Where would they go to buy their clothes or food? Also, Christ was Christ. He was the chosen son of God and he had his mission to do. And he did it. But no where in the bible do I read that he was against shopping or owning an extra pair of shoes.

Wait....is someone trying to say that capitalism isn't part of the gospel?....why of course it is....well maybe it is....well at least during this life.... well exactly how many shoes does a god get to have?

[Calm]

I got a page not found message. What do you want me to know?

It was just the announcement for the CC Center. If you want to read it, go to the Dec 2006 Ensign, News of the Church.

[Calm]

It's not too late. We could put up some nice signage by the entrance doors now. I'm going through Hell now to learn that lesson and I sure wish I had had more reminders about staying out of debt earlier. I know I heard the message several times but it just didn't sink in, and I know repetition can help us to learn and let a message sink in. Heck I'd even hang some flyers from the ceiling inside the mall area about staying out of debt. For those who aren't it would still be a good thing to keep in mind while they're shopping.

They could include a free financial planning office.

[jim_mason]

I thought you were saying the mall is a profit based enterprise, and while I know some of the stores are, the mall itself may not be because it could be set up to run something like a hospital, with a trust fund. Hospitals make money too, but they're not always run just to make a profit. The mall, itself, is simply a place where vendors/stores can set up shop to sell things, and the mall itself may not be meant to operate for profit.

Yes I am saying the Mall is for profit business of the Church. Whether a trust earning a profit or regular for profit commercial enterprise, the end result is the same for me, I do not necessarily expect a Church run business enterprise to run under the same "rules" of the Church, hence I have a reluctant acceptance that the mall features costly fine linens, costly jewelry and intoxicating liquors.

[Ahab]

It was just the announcement for the CC Center. If you want to read it, go to the Dec 2006 Ensign, News of the Church.

Okay thanks. Somehow I missed that news earlier. Sounds very impressive.

[Calm]

Okay thanks. Somehow I missed that news earlier. Sounds very impressive.

I just put the info in the post itself for anyone who didn't have luck earlier and wants to read it still.

[Ahab]

Yes I am saying the Mall is for profit business of the Church.

Okay, well, while it may earn some profit that may not be and I don't believe it is the primary purpose of the development.

Whether a trust earning a profit or regular for profit commercial enterprise, the end result is the same for me,

Well, I kinda feel that way too when I spend money for operations and doctor care at a hospital, but I still realize it's a bit different than a store operated for the primary purpose of making a profit.

I do not necessarily expect a Church run business enterprise to run under the same "rules" of the Church, hence I have a reluctant acceptance that the mall features costly fine linens, costly jewelry and intoxicating liquors.

I have a reluctant acceptance concerning the liquor, too, but I can see good reasons for having a little fine linen and jewelry for my wife to enjoy. I don't think we shouldn't have anything nice just because some people don't have anything nice. I think we just need to find a way for others to have nice things, too, and one of the ways others can have some nice things in their life is by us buying them to give away to others as gifts.

[Ahab]

They could include a free financial planning office.

Yes, there are many good ways we could get the message across. My children are learning what not to do from my example.

[Calm]

Yes, there are many good ways we could get the message across. My children are learning what not to do from my example.

My dad taught us good financial self control. Only problem was he never gave us a chance to practice it so each of us (except perhaps the last one, but he got the benefit of living with the parents while going to school so was way ahead there) kind of bombed when we first went out on our own. Cost him much more bailing us out (and some he has had to bail out multiple times over the years big time) than it would have giving us an allowance and letting us actually practice money management to some extent prior to being on our own completely.

[ERayR]

I have a reluctant acceptance concerning the liquor, too,

A good way to get gentile money. Moses wasn't above taking Egyptian wealth when he led his group out of Egypt.

[Scott Gordon]

I look at it this way.

The church has money coming in. Not all of it gets used immediately. In fact, the best thing is to invest that and run your operations off the interest or earnings. Many large non-profit organizations and Universities try to do that.

So, what should the church "Invest" in? Stocks? Should they buy Proctor & Gamble? Exxon? Coke? I can hear the protests coming in already. That would be nothing but headaches for Church Public Affairs.

So the church could put the money in a bank savings account or buy CDs. The banks could then use that money to lend out to commercial real estate ventures like building malls, condos or apartment buildings. Of course the Bank will take its cut to pay its employees and to give money to their stockholders. The church would get hardly anything. Have you looked at savings account and CD interest rates? You could put it under your mattress and make almost as much.

But, the church is lucky enough to have enough money to completely bypass the bank and invest directly in those very same things. This provides a better income stream for the church and seems to be a more prudent use of "sacred" funds. (I am only calling it sacred funds because others have done so. I know this is not tithing money.)

Other by products of this investment are:

This cleans up the downtown area across from the Temple and makes it a nice place.

By being the direct investors, they have some control. Hence we have that closed on Sunday thing.

Plus the church gets SOME say in what goes in across the street. We all want to be able to pick our own neighbors. The church has struck a balance between picking its neighbors and NOT telling them what they can sell or do (other than the Sunday thing.) So criticisms of immodest clothing sales are a bit over the top. If the Church said they couldn't sell those things, we would hear howls of protest.

It provided lots of jobs for Salt Lake. It helped the local economy.

There are so many good things that come out of this. Let's face it, this was a very smart move. When they made the move, there were lots of critics. To some it proved the Church wasn't smart (or true?) But, it turns out the Church was right. The community of SLC is much better off because of it.

Edited July 17, 2013 by Scott Gordon