City Creek Mall

[Scott Lloyd]

I understand that. I'm just thinking that since we're going to someday inherit all of this Earth, basically building it all anew, we should just keep going now that we've already gotten started to make some progress to spruce up this planet.

Gardens galore, don't cha know. Everywhere you look there will be a garden of some sort, and with a lot of water features.

If that were to happen, imagine the hue and cry that would bring from people who think the money should be given to the poor instead.

So the thing to do is continue as the Church has done: Use its best judgment, guided by divine inspiration, regarding the expenditure of its funds.

And contrary to the fanciful ruminations of Alan, I don't believe for a moment the Church leaders have any regrets about City Creek.

Edited July 17, 2013 by Scott Lloyd

[why me]

Any homeowner or merchant who has ever desired to safeguard the value and integrity of his own neighborhood and surroundings should not be inclined to quibble over such a desire on the part of the Church and its leaders.

To put it another way, I wonder how many of the critics who lambaste the Church over City Creek would be willing to let their own yards go to ruin while they gave to charity the money they would otherwise spend on landscaping and yard care .

Or to put it another way. how many critics would be pleased to see their home price go down because the church did not want to invest in the area but rather build a homeless shelter near by. Most would be cursing the church. The point is the lds church cannot win in this one. The critics have false and yet believable answers for everything. about the mall.

[why me]

Yeah, we just need to follow up to make sure all members of the Church become expert shoppers, learning when and how to spend their money on something worthwhile and save their money until they can use it to shop for something sometime later.

Shopping is what it's all about, don't cha know. Whether we're hunting or gathering, we're all shopping for something.

Shopping is the United States. It is part of the system,,,,part of the capitalist ideology. However, the church does caution people about shopping. It is not the end to end all and to be careful with the money.

[Ahab]

Or to put it another way. how many critics would be pleased to see their home price go down because the church did not want to invest in the area but rather build a homeless shelter near by. Most would be cursing the church. The point is the lds church cannot win in this one. The critics have false and yet believable answers for everything. about the mall.

The critics are critics because they criticize, and I think if they could see the good that comes from spending money on things like this they wouldn't have any more reason to criticize, at which point they wouldn't criticize on this issue anymore and go on to criticize something else. As long as they criticize they will always be critics, don't cha know.

[Scott Lloyd]

They already have BYU Hawaii and BYU Idaho.

And there is Southern Virginia University. Not a Church school, but created in the image thereof.

That's probably the better answer to what Stone holm is calling for. Let private individuals (including Stone holm himself, if he's so inclined) accomplish it on their own initiative, leaving Church resources free for other purposes.

Edited July 17, 2013 by Scott Lloyd

[rockpond]

If that were to happen, imagine the hue and cry that would bring from people who think the money should be given to the poor instead.

So the thing to do is continue as the Church has done: Use its best judgment regarding the expenditure of its funds.

And contrary to the fanciful ruminations of Alan, I don't believe for a moment the Church leaders have any regrets about City Creek.

I don't know whether or not they regret it but I do hope that they are not immune to the concerns of many church members regarding the decision. I'm not saying those concerns mean that the members are right and that the Brethren are wrong, I just hope that the First Presidency & Q12 are not so isolated that they aren't aware.

[ERayR]

Also nice to know the church holds the opinion that there is money that is not meant to help the poor.

In case you missed that class in economics providing jobs is helping the poor and the economy.

[Ahab]

Shopping is the United States. It is part of the system,,,,part of the capitalist ideology. However, the church does caution people about shopping. It is not the end to end all and to be careful with the money.

The only reason we need to be careful with our money is because there can come a point where we don't have any money to spend anymore, at least not at that moment, so then we have to wait until we have some more money to spend. So, yeah, that's all a part of being an expert shopper, a wise shopper, a shopper who knows when and where to shop and when to save for something else to shop for later.

I'm in a down phase at the moment because I don't have much money to shop with and all I can do is save to shop sometime later.

[Scott Lloyd]

I don't know whether or not they regret it but I do hope that they are not immune to the concerns of many church members regarding the decision. I'm not saying those concerns mean that the members are right and that the Brethren are wrong, I just hope that the First Presidency & Q12 are not so isolated that they aren't aware.

I'm confident that they are not only aware but are wise enough to place the naysaying in its proper perspective.

[Duncan]

They already have BYU Hawaii and BYU Idaho.

we got a refferal from the Hawaiin Temple VC all the way over here! not sure if they elders visited them yet....

[jim_mason]

We are told the funds for building did not come from tithing, as of yet I do not believe the Church has stated where the funds came from.

[ERayR]

We are told the funds for building did not come from tithing, as of yet I do not believe the Church has stated where the funds came from.

Nor is it incumbent on them to do so.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

And contrary to the fanciful ruminations of Alan, I don't believe for a moment the Church leaders have any regrets about City Creek.

Is there any evidence that the leaders regret City Creek? So far I have seen none.

[jim_mason]

Nor is it incumbent on them to do so.

Context: to identify where the monies came from.

I agree, we also shouldn't expect a profit based enterprise that is owned/run by the Church to operate the same as the Church; I believe that not distinguishing between the business side from the spiritual side of the Church is what cause issues for people.

Edited July 17, 2013 by jim_mason

[Scott Lloyd]

Or to put it another way. how many critics would be pleased to see their home price go down because the church did not want to invest in the area but rather build a homeless shelter near by. Most would be cursing the church. The point is the lds church cannot win in this one. The critics have false and yet believable answers for everything. about the mall.

That's for certain.

On this thread we are seeing the Church pilloried because a couple of restaurants at City Creek are staying open on Sunday.

I recall early on in project planning and construction, after it had been announced that City Creek stores would be closed on Sunday, one of the on-line critics cried foul because the Church would be inconveniencing the downtown community by replacing one of the malls (Crossroads) with a new mall that would be closed on Sunday. What a sad situation that people on one day out of seven should have to go a few blocks west to the Gateway or a few blocks east to Trolley Square or, even worse, get in their cars and drive a short distance away to one of the suburban shopping malls.

Edited July 17, 2013 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

Context: to identify where the monies came from.

I agree, we also shouldn't expect a profit based enterprise that is owned/run by the Church to operate the same as the Church; I believe that not distinguishing between the business side from the spiritual side of the Church is what cause issues for people.

I believe it has been stated that the monies were accumulated over the years from the proceeds of the Church's commercial enterprises. That should be sufficient for most people. It wouldn't add much understanding or significance to provide an itemized spreadsheet.

Edited July 17, 2013 by Scott Lloyd

[Ahab]

Context: to identify where the monies came from.

I agree, we also shouldn't expect a profit based enterprise that is owned/run by the Church to operate the same as the Church; I believe that not distinguishing between the business side from the spiritual side of the Church is what cause issues for people.

Do we even know for sure that the mall project was sponsored by a profit based enterprise? I know trusts can be set up to fund projects and costs of operations without being considered profit based enterprises, according to tax law, even if the projects generate some income. Some hospitals, for example, are not considered profit based enterprises according to tax law, even though they can earn revenue to fund the costs of operations, even including building new buildings.

[ERayR]

Context: to identify where the monies came from.

I agree, we also shouldn't expect a profit based enterprise that is owned/run by the Church to operate the same as the Church; I believe that not distinguishing between the business side from the spiritual side of the Church is what cause issues for people.

The monies came from church funds. Once donations are made they become church funds and their use is at the discretion of church leaders. Other that for legal(tax) issues there is really no distinction.

[Scott Lloyd]

The critics are critics because they criticize, and I think if they could see the good that comes from spending money on things like this they wouldn't have any more reason to criticize, at which point they wouldn't criticize on this issue anymore and go on to criticize something else. As long as they criticize they will always be critics, don't cha know.

Reminds me of Nigel's line from "Finding Nemo": "Fish gotta swim, birds gotta eat."

By the way, that has greater comic value when you understand that it is a takeoff from a line in "Can't Help Lovin' that Man" from the Broadway musical "Showboat."

The original line is "Fish gotta swim, bird's gotta fly.

Edited July 17, 2013 by Scott Lloyd

[Garden Girl]

I'm a local Valley person, but have only visited City Creek mall once, rather briefly at that. I liked the atmosphere, and yes the creek running down the center of the walkways is very cool. But the shopping interests are lacking so I can't assess the collection of businesses as good, poor or indifferent. Personally, I saw no stores that I was interested in checking out, and I rarely eat out at mall food courts either. So "the Church" isn't going to make any money off me!...

There was a recent insert with Deseret News that promoted things to do in SLC and area... with a page devoted to the City Creek Mall which listed about 20 of the flagship stores... all were of good to better quality... certainly a variety... I don't see how the shopping could be construed as lacking what with such variety. And I'm sure several times a year there are sales that offer savings on the merchandise.

Any homeowner or merchant who has ever desired to safeguard the value and integrity of his own neighborhood and surroundings should not be inclined to quibble over such a desire on the part of the Church and its leaders.

To put it another way, I wonder how many of the critics who lambaste the Church over City Creek would be willing to let their own yards go to ruin while they gave to charity the money they would otherwise spend on landscaping and yard care .

Or their neighborhood for that matter... I offer as an example San Bernardino, CA... my home town. When I was attending high school there was Highland Avenue, blocks of little individual shops and boutiques. A lovely area... over the years it kept getting more run down, particularly as the economy went down, and from poor city planning, etc. Imagine how sad it was to visit that area not many years ago and see empty shops, bars on shop windows, grafitti, weeds, trash... gone was the vibrant little area... and my high school? totally different. Chain link fence surrounding it vs the rolling lawns and winding pathways, bars on windows... and... just recently, San Bernardino filing for bankruptcy... how can it be?

So the Church stepped in and helped to revitalize the SLC downtown? Hooray for them... Providing approx 2000 jobs in the CC Mall (not to mention all the jobs to build the mall)...

And then to see the ad for the Mall in the insert... good on the Church for taking a hand and helping the city to renew its potential... not to let it go the way of San Bdno, Stockton, and other cities across this country.

from the beach... GG

Edited July 17, 2013 by Garden Girl

[ERayR]

Do we even know for sure that the mall project was sponsored by a profit based enterprise? I know trusts can be set up to fund projects and costs of operations without being considered profit based enterprises, according to tax law, even if the projects generate some income. Some hospitals, for example, are not considered profit based enterprises according to tax law, even though they can earn revenue to fund the costs of operations, even including building new buildings.

The Non-profit designation does not mean the business does not earn a profit but that the profits are used for the avowed non-profit purpose of the organization.

[Ahab]

I'm a local Valley person, but have only visited City Creek mall once, rather briefly at that. I liked the atmosphere, and yes the creek running down the center of the walkways is very cool. But the shopping interests are lacking so I can't assess the collection of businesses as good, poor or indifferent. Personally, I saw no stores that I was interested in checking out, and I rarely eat out at mall food courts either. So "the Church" isn't going to make any money off me!...

Sheesh. What stores interest you? Only big box stores like Home Depot and Lowe's and Costco?

I just checked on the internet and there are about 90 stores there! Yowsa! You should take another look, bro. If you're going to buy from any mall why not buy from a mall that will help us in our Church to help other people.

http://shopcitycreekcenter.com/directory

[Stone holm]

Sheesh. What stores interest you? Only big box stores like Home Depot and Lowe's and Costco?

I just checked on the internet and there are about 90 stores there! Yowsa! You should take another look, bro. If you're going to buy from any mall why not buy from a mall that will help us in our Church to help other people.

http://shopcitycreek...r.com/directory

Really who cares, the point was to clean up the blighted area that private business had created and replace it with a fancy commercial district that would set off the Temple Square.

[Calm]

An article on what missionary work is like for Temple Square missionaries:

https://www.lds.org/...monies?lang=eng

Just came across this for those who are interested in the history of buildings in SLC:

http://broadcast.lds...egacy-ep-31.pdf

Temple Square Gardens:

http://broadcast.lds...egacy-ep-30.pdf

Love this part:

Oh, that was so funny. George Cannon, the Church architect who was responsible for the design of the North Visitors Center took me aside one day. He was aged in his 90s and he knew me and he took me up to look at that beautiful set of stairs that steps down to the lawn. And he said, “Peter, those steps that step down to the lawn are poetic expressions that come to us from Venice and just as stairs that go down from the Plaza to the water were never meant to be bridged by pavement out over the water, it is, we never intended to have pavement to go over to those steps.” And so several times I was faced with

14somebody in authority wanting to put pavement there. I remember the first time it happened. I knew that they were going to put the pavement across there and destroy the simplicity of that lawn. And I put the name of that lawn on the prayer roll in the Salt Lake Temple, that it would be preserved. And they decided that they, they caught on to what Brother Young was saying, that the steps were never meant to be connected to a pavement; it would destroy the elegant simplicity of that green space on the lawn. A decade later with a new set of management the question came up again:. “Let‟s put a sidewalk across there.” So once again I put its name on the prayer roll of the Salt Lake Temple. And a witness to that event watched the brethren deal with the business of the Church. Brother Hinckley was voice for the brethren, and he said, “Next, we have a request: put pavement across the lawn over to the North Visitors Center Plaza. Let‟s see. We already considered that. Next.” [LAUGHING]

Edited July 17, 2013 by calmoriah

[cinepro]

I kind of wish the defenders of the mall would get together and present a united front regarding the degree to which the Church was involved, the nature of their involvement, the origin of the funds used for the mall, and the purpose of LDS church's involvement in the project.

Ultimately, I understand the logic involved, but my brain just can't comprehend how you go from this:

to this:

Edited July 17, 2013 by cinepro