City Creek Mall

[ERayR]

In some ways but not in all because we're not likely to ever know the ROI to the church.

That is only one measurement. If you own adjacent or even nearby property another measurement is rather it has helped property values or harmed them.

[canard78]

That's nice, and a good thing to spend money on.

In a church of 14 million, where some LDS struggle to get a decent pair of shoes on their children, we make sure the children of the church office building have somewhere to do a Saturday job and save for their missions and ensure the view from the window is pretty.

I think you may not fully realize the power there is in "shopping". The best thing to do with money is to get rid of it by spending it, doing all that we can to circulate it as much as possible. The spending helps the money go to people in all levels of an economy, in all of the various markets for goods and services, otherwise the money would just sit around somewhere not doing any real good, and all anyone needs to do to tap into the economy is to do something that other people can spend money on as they value the work of other people.

I know that just giving money away to people for basic necessities is a good thing to do in some situations, especially when people are starving or homeless, but we already have a good Fast Offering program to take care of those situations, so what we need more of are the long term solutions. People should do some kind of work to do something productive for society, rather than just siting or moping around asking for a handout, and "shopping" is the best way to spread the money around.

Indeed - and I'm sure the City Creek is full of life's essentials and encourages people to be humble and live within their means.

The steak and chicken joints, washed down with beer to help you keep healthy and observe the Word of Wisdom

The fine watches and jewelry (Rolex and Tiffany anyone?) to help us look beautiful

Of course if we give up the cost of two meals a month that puts our conscience at rest. We go hungry for 24 hours so the world doesn't have to. And yet as BP I was constantly being told to reign in the welfare

assistance being given to those in need because the available funds were limited.

Thus the American motto: Work hard and you will be successful.

... needs amendment to add that we should also learn how to use and apply the money we earn.

Yeah, well, nobody said the Church is perfect, or if they did they were wrong. The Church still has a long way to go to be perfect.

I'm not interested in the American motto. I'm not American. The fact that the church leaders are mainly American should not mean that the church serves the best interests of America (with a skew towards the Wasatch front).

If the church wants to invest money in lifting the poor out of their situation, why not invest in creating jobs in Manila or Cebu or any other undeveloped country?

[canard78]

Perhaps the reason they built the mall was to . . . .

Have a mall.

If the reason for building it was to create construction jobs, then why did they stop building?

Why does the church need a mall in SLC?

Why does the church own something that encourages people to:

- break the sabbath

- break the word of wisdom

- break modesty guidelines

- focus on materialism and the trappings of wealth

There is little value in Gucci hangbags and Rolex watches beyond the "look at me" value it brings. And that's the kind of pride the Book of Mormon warns about. In fact there's a whole city that get quite hung up on that. And look at the good it did them.

[Tacenda]

In a church of 14 million, where some LDS struggle to get a decent pair of shoes on their children, we make sure the children of the church office building have somewhere to do a Saturday job and save for their missions and ensure the view from the window is pretty.

Indeed - and I'm sure the City Creek is full of life's essentials and encourages people to be humble and live within their means.

The steak and chicken joints, washed down with beer to help you keep healthy and observe the Word of Wisdom

The fine watches and jewelry (Rolex and Tiffany anyone?) to help us look beautiful

Of course if we give up the cost of two meals a month that puts our conscience at rest. We go hungry for 24 hours so the world doesn't have to. And yet as BP I was constantly being told to reign in the welfare

assistance being given to those in need because the available funds were limited.

I'm not interested in the American motto. I'm not American. The fact that the church leaders are mainly American should not mean that the church serves the best interests of America (with a skew towards the Wasatch front).

If the church wants to invest money in lifting the poor out of their situation, why not invest in creating jobs in Manila or Cebu or any other undeveloped country?

Good point Canard, just a little more could go a long way. Or alot more whichever comes first. Like I posted elsewhere, apparently Michael Quinn is writing a book about church fiances due to come out next year, if rumour is true. Right now I'm reading "Book of Mammon" by Daymon Smith, who worked for the church. It's been a difficult read so far because of his writing style. Just started it and I've no idea what it'll say. Eta: oops, scrap fiances, make that church finances. Edited July 17, 2013 by Tacenda

[Stone holm]

I have never had a problem with this move by the Church. The Church headquarters just happens to be located in a fairly regressive community and without any likelihood of the government stepping in to prevent or alleviate the blight caused there by unregulated private use, discard, and move on mentality, the Church had an obligation to step in and protect the area around its headquarters and the symbolic geographical heart of the Church. One may or may not agree that gentrification was the way to go, but obviously something had to be done. If it had surplus funds to do it, then I have no qualms about it having done so. It may well have to do it again.

[Duncan]

Good point Canard, just a little more could go a long way. Or alot more whichever comes first. Like I posted elsewhere, apparently Michael Quinn is writing a book about church fiances due to come out next year, if rumour is true. Right now I'm reading "Book of Mammon" by Daymon Smith, who worked for the church. It's been a difficult read so far because of his writing style. Just started it and I've no idea what it'll say.

church fiances? does he list whoever will be mine?!

i've only been to Utah once in me life but if I go get to that part of the world again i'd hit up the mall, I want to buy a white shirt and tie from Mr. Macs and eat at the food court for all the American food like Great Steak and Potato Company because it looks very goooooooooooooooooooooooood!

[Bikeemikey]

church fiances? does he list whoever will be mine?!

i've only been to Utah once in me life but if I go get to that part of the world again i'd hit up the mall, I want to buy a white shirt and tie from Mr. Macs and eat at the food court for all the American food like Great Steak and Potato Company because it looks very goooooooooooooooooooooooood!

If you drink beer in a church owned bar is it really breaking to word of wisdom?

[Duncan]

If you drink beer in a church owned bar is it really breaking to word of wisdom?

I personally don't drink beer, it makes me break out and my dermatologist is on vacation

[Stone holm]

One of the greatest parables of the entire Bible is the story of the three servants and the talents...also we are commanded to be good stewards of the gifts and blessing we have. Also the profits from this mall (via the Prophets) will end up building Chapels, Temples, feeding the hungry and dressing the poor. Or maybe others think that money should just be in Banks earning min interest and the poor suffering as a result while churches are decaying over time...or maybe getting loans and being in perpetual debt?

Although I support this action by the Church, I wouldn't get too carried away here with parables because Christ did braid a whip and drive the moneychangers out of the Temple.

[canard78]

If you drink beer in a church owned bar is it really breaking to word of wisdom?

Mild barley drinks were always fine according to the original revelation:

89:17 Nevertheless... barley for.. mild drinks, as also other grain.

Trouble is, beer really smells bad, so it's of absolutely no appeal.

[Bikeemikey]

Mild barley drinks were always fine according to the original revelation:

89:17 Nevertheless... barley for.. mild drinks, as also other grain.

Trouble is, beer really smells bad, so it's of absolutely no appeal.

:-) honestly never tried it...

Bunderburg Ginger Beer I can drink by the gallon.

[rockpond]

No, that's just a small part of it. The best thing the project did was revitalize the downtown area... including the area around but not part of the mall. It affects the whole town, basically.

Have you ever played Sim City? If the downtown area goes kaput, you might as well move out of town and live somewhere else. The downtown area is truly the "heart" of a city, and it should be vibrant and thriving.

I don't play Sim City. I do the real thing as a profession.

I just didn't realize that the fifth mission of the church is downtown SLC revitalization.

[canard78]

:-) honestly never tried it...

Bunderburg Ginger Beer I can drink by the gallon.

Ginger Beer... Root Beer - I can see the appeal.

I've always been bemused by the popularity of Barley Beer. It smells as appealing as a boys school changing room.

[canard78]

I don't play Sim City. I do the real thing as a profession.

I just didn't realize that the fifth mission of the church is downtown SLC revitalization.

Indeed. There are plenty of other cities in the world also going 'kapput' - will the church also be investing in those? Didn't think so.

[rockpond]

One of the greatest parables of the entire Bible is the story of the three servants and the talents...also we are commanded to be good stewards of the gifts and blessing we have. Also the profits from this mall (via the Prophets) will end up building Chapels, Temples, feeding the hungry and dressing the poor. Or maybe others think that money should just be in Banks earning min interest and the poor suffering as a result while churches are decaying over time...or maybe getting loans and being in perpetual debt?

Maybe it will go to build chapels, temples, feed the poor, or clothe the naked. But when those of who opposed City Creek voiced our complaints on here we were told that these were not sacred funds. This is just money that the church has in its investment arm. It's meant to be invested and increase NOT help the poor and needy.

If there are profits from this endeavor, who is to say that they won't just be used for the next commercial project?

[Bikeemikey]

Indeed. There are plenty of other cities in the world also going 'kapput' - will the church also be investing in those? Didn't think so.

True but basic economics dictate the outlay of capital in a manner that would generate value on as many fronts as possible, including the likelihood for a full recoup of investment with interest.

Practically it would be highly unlikely the church would heavily invest in any other community the way it does in Utah.

Why not focus on the issue of BYU creating a urban mormon elite where tithing collected around the world contributes to the funding of universities that a huge minority if LDS families will ever be able to use?

[Stone holm]

I don't play Sim City. I do the real thing as a profession.

I just didn't realize that the fifth mission of the church is downtown SLC revitalization.

Uhm, I think you will find that a considerable amount of time was spent by early Church leaders designing cities, including SLC, so why should trying to salvage something the Church basically laid out in the first place come as a surprise?

[rockpond]

Uhm, I think you will find that a considerable amount of time was spent by early Church leaders designing cities, including SLC, so why should trying to salvage something the Church basically laid out in the first place come as a surprise?

Planning a city or settlement for the saints to dwell is different than pouring hundreds of millions into an upscale shopping center.

And, City Creek Mall was not the only way to salvage downtown SLC.

[Stone holm]

True but basic economics dictate the outlay of capital in a manner that would generate value on as many fronts as possible, including the likelihood for a full recoup of investment with interest.

Practically it would be highly unlikely the church would heavily invest in any other community the way it does in Utah.

Why not focus on the issue of BYU creating a urban mormon elite where tithing collected around the world contributes to the funding of universities that a huge minority if LDS families will ever be able to use?

But BYU is a huge Mormon marriage mill which creates families who are the leaven of the Earth. Eventually you will see BYU branches elsewhere. I suspect first in Nauvoo.

[Stone holm]

Planning a city or settlement for the saints to dwell is different than pouring hundreds of millions into an upscale shopping center.

And, City Creek Mall was not the only way to salvage downtown SLC.

True, but it was the one which probably was the first to come to the leaderships mind. After all there was probably a dearth in supply of the group which is normally associated with urban pioneering in their ranks.

[cinepro]

Although I support this action by the Church, I wouldn't get too carried away here with parables because Christ did braid a whip and drive the moneychangers out of the Temple.

That's why I always bring exact change when I rent clothes at the Temple...

[strappinglad]

Those who understand interest collect it, those who don't , pay it. I am always amazed at all the folks who think that the only way to help the poor is to give them money and stuff. The best way to help the poor is to provide them with opportunity to advance economically. Another way is to provide infrastructure like roads and wells and power. The native American peoples are perfect examples for good and ill regarding how to help and not help the poor. Some tribes have seen opportunities and taken them and developed their own businesses and banks etc. and have improved the lives of the whole tribe. Others have relied only on government handouts and have seen the spiral of debt, drug abuse and ,suicide among the youth.

[Thinking]

Ironic that they celebrate making 2,000 new jobs in SLC when they fired cleaners all around the world, often in areas where employment was very hard to secure.

My wife's uncle was a church custodian and lost his job when the Church changed the program. He hooked up with a construction company and travels 2+ hours (one way) to the construction site usually on a Sunday night. He usually returns Thursday night (the company provides lodging between Sunday & Thursday).

[why me]

The article provided by the OP only speaks to economic impacts on SLC.

From a strictly economic position, wouldn't one also need to look at the ROI to objectively determine the value of the investment?

The value of the investment is putting people to work and giving students the opportunity to work and attend university at the same time. Many students would be without work without this mall. But it also creates a more vibrant downtown for the people of salt lake. I think that it is wonderful that church investments put people to work, secure jobs for the old and the young so that people can have some money in their pocket.

[why me]

Planning a city or settlement for the saints to dwell is different than pouring hundreds of millions into an upscale shopping center.

And, City Creek Mall was not the only way to salvage downtown SLC.

Your suggestions, please? I also think that we need to understand that the lds have always been concerned with their local environment. The towns of Kirkland and Nauvoo were well planned to give the saints a comfortable place to live. I look upon the church's involvement in downtown salt lake as a sign that they are still concerned with a city that contains their headquarters and a city where members come to from all over the world. I think that it is wonderful that the lds church is concerned with the outside surroundings.