Alma 13: What Sign Is There That Men In The Lds Church Have Been Given God'S Priesthood?

[BCSpace]

On another board I was asked:

"What sign is there that men in the LDS Church have been given God's priesthood? All they can say is so-and-so gave it me which is rather meaningless don't you think?"

The answer that came to my mind was Alma 13. Specifically:

10 Now, as I said concerning the holy order, or this high priesthood, there were many who were ordained and became high priests of God; and it was on account of their exceeding faith and repentance, and their righteousness before God, they choosing to repent and work righteousness rather than to perish;

11 Therefore they were called after this holy order, and were sanctified, and their garments were washed white through the blood of the Lamb.

12 Now they, after being sanctified by the Holy Ghost, having their garments made white, being pure and spotless before God, could not look upon sin save it were with abhorrence; and there were many, exceedingly great many, who were made pure and entered into the rest of the Lord their God.

Now I think that saying if one has a testimony in the Restored Gospel then one has evidence that the LDS priesthood is valid and that is a perfectly reasonable, good, and right answer, but I wanted to give more than that and make it applicable to unbelievers and so I thought of Alma 13.

The world in general of course likely will never be satisfied with any answer but I am interested in:

1. What do you think of this answer?

2. How would you expound on this answer if it is reasonable?

3. What other answers can you think of?

4. Do we as individuals show signs that we have received the priesthood of God?

...and any other question, insight, or epiphany you have about this question of the priesthood.

Edited May 16, 2013 by BCSpace

[SamIam]

On another board I was asked:

The answer that came to my mind was Alma 13. Specifically:

Now I think that saying if one has a testimony in the Restored Gospel then one has evidence that the LDS priesthood is valid is a perfectly reasonable, good, and right answer, but I wanted to give more than that and make it applicable to unbelievers and so I thought of Alma 13.

The world in general of course likely will never be satisfied with any answer but I am interested in:

1. What do you think of this answer?

2. How would you expound on this answer if it is reasonable?

3. What other answers can you think of?

4. Do we as individuals show signs that we have received the priesthood of God?

...and any other question, insight, or epiphany you have about this question of the priesthood.

Edited...Considering further...

Edited May 14, 2013 by SamIam

[Michael Sanders]

What signifies tokens of divine authority?

Trying to disern whether an individual has legitimately been called and authorized by God or is simply a usurper who is offering up "strange fire" and taking too much upon themselves can be difficult. However, I don't believe that we are left without means to rightly divide or weigh such matters. The ultimate litmus test I suppose is how the Holy Ghost bears record in a man's labors and the fruits that he bears in his ministry (I know this can be subjective). Here are some scriptures that I believe speak to the matter:

"Verily I say unto you, that ye are built upon my gospel; therefore ye shall call whatsoever things ye do call in my name; therefore if ye call upon the Father, for the church, if it be in my name, the Father will hear you; And if it so be that the church is built upon my gospel, then will the Father shew forth his own works in it; But if it be not built upon my gospel, and is built upon the works of men, or upon the works of the devil, verily I say unto you, They have joy in their works for a season, and by and by the end cometh, and they are hewn down and cast into the fire, from whence there is no return;" (III Nephi 12:21-23). Also: "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?" (III Nephi 6:27-28; Matt 7:24,25). Also: "And again, I will give unto you a pattern in all things, that ye may not be deceived; for Satan is abroad in the land, and he goeth forth deceiving the nations; wherefore he that prayeth whose spirit is contrite, the same is accepted of me, if he obey mine ordinances. He that speaketh, whose spirit is contrite, whose language is meek, and edifieth, the same is of God, if he obey mine ordinances. " (DC 52:4) Also: "And these signs shall follow them that believe: in my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; they shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover;..." (Mormon 4:87+) Also: "and in the mouth of two or three witnesses, shall every word be established." (DC 6:13b).

Other scriptural principles that apply:

1). Call/Revelation from God. Hebrews 5:4 And no man taketh this honor unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron.

2). Ordained by Holy Ghost. DC 17:12b is to be ordained according to the gifts and callings of God...by the power of the Holy Ghost which is in the one who ordains him.

3). Ordained by Another who holds the Keys. DC 42:4 except he be ordained by someone who has authority, and is known to the church that he has authority, and has been regularly ordained by the hands (heads) of the church

4). Law of Witnesses. DC 6:13b and in the mouth of two or three witnesses, shall every word be established.

5). Sustained by People. DC 17:14-16 No person is to be ordained to any office in this church...without the vote of that church. Preface of DC 19. Truly a key test of priesthood authority, will a man walk humbly in service before a people before he starts wanting his rights of authority. If not, he is usually a hireling.

6). Qualification. Mosiah 11:15 trusting no one to be your teachers nor your ministers, except he be a man of God, walking in his ways and keeping his commandments. DC 17:7, 18 truly manifest by works...before the church, and also before the elders, by a Godly walk and conversation...that there may be works and faith agreeable to the Holy Scriptures, walking in holiness before the Lord. 1 Timothy 3:1-13

7). Tokens of Authority. A man's labors, if he has power and authority from God, they will be accompanied by manifestations of the spirit, i.e. "these signs shall follow them" - see above

Let's see the visible tokens of your authority. Does your rod bud overnight or is it still a lifeless rod like the others?

Lastly, is the power of godliness manifest in the ministry of the priesthood - converting power, saving power in the ordinances of the church? Do the sick rise up from bed's of affliction? Are the prophetic gifts manifest? Not that we seek for such to consume it upon our lusts, but there should be power manifest - or else the heaven's withdraw and amen to the priesthood.

Mike Sanders

Book of Mormon Believer

Independence, MO

[janderich]

What sign is there that men in the LDS Church have been given God's priesthood? All they can say is so-and-so gave it me which is rather meaningless don't you think?

Yes. If we are unable to exercise priesthood then we do not have priesthood. It is that simple. "And if it so be that the church is built upon my gospel then will the Father show forth his own works in it" (3 Ne 27:10) "And the reason why he ceaseth to do miracles among the children of men is because that they dwindle in unbelief, and depart from the right way, and know not the God in whom they should trust." (Mormon 9:20) Miracles follow one that believes.

Sometimes we fail to realize that having hands laid on our head does not give us power in the priesthood. Here is how it is given, "Behold it was by faith that they of old were called after the holy order of God" (Ether 12:10) And again, "And thus hey have been called to this holy calling on account of their faith" (Alma 13:4) Faith is power and power is priesthood.

[Ahab]

1. What do you think of this answer?

I see Alma 13 basically saying that those who accept the priesthood work righteousness in their own lives. Like, duh. As if people who accept the priesthood of God would live a life of sin with no sign of repentance in their own lives? No, that wouldn't make sense. I especially like they part about how they can't look upon sin without abhorrance. Like, duh, again. As if they would like it when they saw it? No, that wouldn't make sense, either. Not saying we can't still love the sinners though while hating the sins.

2. How would you expound on this answer if it is reasonable?

I usually like to point out that "receiving" the priesthood of God is mainly about accepting those who have the priesthood of God, although it also has something to do with being accepted into an order of the priesthood ourselves. Our acceptance of those who are authorized by God is what makes us acceptable before God, ourselves, and the more we accept others who are authorized by God the more we become acceptable and useful to God.

3. What other answers can you think of?

I like the words and ideas expressed in the oath and covenant of the priesthood. And many more ideas our Lord has given us.

4. Do we as individuals show signs that we have received the priesthood of God?

Yes, and as we do the more we become more righteous... which can really tick off some people who are more inclined to evil.

...and any other question, insight, or epiphany you have about this question of the priesthood.

Sheesh. You sure like to probe, don't cha? I suggest you stick your head in the scriptures for a while and see what thoughts you can come up with from God.

[CV75]

1. What do you think of this answer?

2. How would you expound on this answer if it is reasonable?

3. What other answers can you think of?

4. Do we as individuals show signs that we have received the priesthood of God?

...and any other question, insight, or epiphany you have about this question of the priesthood.

It's a reasonable answer.

I would expound on it with an example, such as when new stake presidents are called, which defies any principle of responsible succession planning or even emergency succession: A general authority spends a weekend, interviews a few men he doesn't know, and makes a selection that may seem random but turns out to result in the expansion and strengthening of the Church. Either the GA and the man that was called have the priesthood, or one of them has the priesthood, in order for progress to be the norm under such circumstances.

In my experience, the signs that I have the priesthood follow those that believe.

[Ahab]

I would expound on it with an example, such as when new stake presidents are called, which defies any principle of responsible succession planning or even emergency succession: A general authority spends a weekend, interviews a few men he doesn't know, and makes a selection that may seem random but turns out to result in the expansion and strengthening of the Church. Either the GA and the man that was called have the priesthood, or one of them has the priesthood, in order for progress to be the norm under such circumstances.

It's a very simple procedure. Someone with the authority to appoint someone into that office comes and appoints someone into that office. And if that person who is appointed doesn't work out for some reason, another is appointed instead. Like, duh. It's all very simple.

[CV75]

It's a very simple procedure. Someone with the authority to appoint someone into that office comes and appoints someone into that office. And if that person who is appointed doesn't work out for some reason, another is appointed instead. Like, duh. It's all very simple.

Of course it is simple. But if it weren’t done properly by the Priesthood of God with the attendant spiritual gifts, the stakes would not abound as they are. That is what the OP is checking into—indicators that we have the Priesthood. Do you attribute the growth and strengthening of the stakes to powers other than the Priesthood? What do you think it is it a sign of? What is your reply to this post a sign of?

[BCSpace]

I see Alma 13 basically saying that those who accept the priesthood work righteousness in their own lives. Like, duh. As if people who accept the priesthood of God would live a life of sin with no sign of repentance in their own lives? No, that wouldn't make sense. I especially like they part about how they can't look upon sin without abhorrance. Like, duh, again. As if they would like it when they saw it? No, that wouldn't make sense, either. Not saying we can't still love the sinners though while hating the sins.

Well you know I thought about that too; the "duh" factor. It's almost as if anyone, male or female or of any church, who is righteous by default holds the priesthood and that is essentially the "royal priesthood" claim of the Protestants. But it may again come back to which Church is right. In other words, who defines righteousness and sin etc.? "God" of course is the cop out answer because God works through a Church and those definitions are going to the found in that particular Church.

[BCSpace]

...and any other question, insight, or epiphany you have about this question of the priesthood.

Sheesh. You sure like to probe, don't cha?

"Stop! We have reached the limits of what......probing can teach us!"

Actually, I just wanted it to be known that every line of thought, reasoning, or revelation, extending from this subject was welcome.

[Ahab]

Of course it is simple. But if it weren’t done properly by the Priesthood of God with the attendant spiritual gifts, the stakes would not abound as they are. That is what the OP is checking into—indicators that we have the Priesthood. Do you attribute the growth and strengthening of the stakes to powers other than the Priesthood?

Oh, I see what you meant now. Yes, without the priesthood of God we wouldn't be seeing an increased number of people who accept the priesthood of God. And it really doesn't matter how many more are being added as long as it's more than zero. One more who accepts the priesthood of God is one more than there would have been had the priesthood of God not been there, in that stake, to receive.

What do you think it is it a sign of?

A sign of how many are receiving the priesthood of God, and whether or not any are being ordained into offices of the priesthood, themselves.

What is your reply to this post a sign of?

My intelligence.

[Ahab]

"Stop! We have reached the limits of what......probing can teach us!"

Actually, I just wanted it to be known that every line of thought, reasoning, or revelation, extending from this subject was welcome.

I was merely pointing out that you seem to be as a child in the "why" phase. Go ahead and keep asking. The more you seek the more you will find.

[Ahab]

Well you know I thought about that too; the "duh" factor. It's almost as if anyone, male or female or of any church, who is righteous by default holds the priesthood and that is essentially the "royal priesthood" claim of the Protestants. But it may again come back to which Church is right. In other words, who defines righteousness and sin etc.? "God" of course is the cop out answer because God works through a Church and those definitions are going to the found in that particular Church.

As I was trying to point out, a person who "receives" the priesthood of God isn't necessarily being appointed or ordained to an office of the priesthood, themselves. We receive the priesthood of God by receiving the priesthood of God in others, like when we receive what they tell us which God has told them to tell us. And I think it's more about that than it is to "hold" the priesthood, ourselves, because that is what keeps us connected. Just as our Lord said, when we receive him we receive he who sent him, and by receiving all of that we can receive all that our Father has.

That's what it's all about, and we need to do that instead of only thinking we are doing that to abide and grow in righteousness.

[tyler90az]

On another board I was asked:

The answer that came to my mind was Alma 13. Specifically:

Now I think that saying if one has a testimony in the Restored Gospel then one has evidence that the LDS priesthood is valid and a perfectly reasonable, good, and right answer, but I wanted to give more than that and make it applicable to unbelievers and so I thought of Alma 13.

The world in general of course likely will never be satisfied with any answer but I am interested in:

1. What do you think of this answer?

2. How would you expound on this answer if it is reasonable?

3. What other answers can you think of?

4. Do we as individuals show signs that we have received the priesthood of God?

...and any other question, insight, or epiphany you have about this question of the priesthood.

Great topic!

1. Wait, how many men who have Priesthood have ran ponzi schemes? Jodi arias is Mormon also right?

2. I would liken the Priesthood to individual LDS men not every man in the church. The answer would be much better if brought to that level.

3. Miracles shall follow. Not only "big" miracles but works of righteousness.

4. I see signs in other people more then I do myself.

Edited May 15, 2013 by tyler90az

[Avatar4321]

What signifies tokens of divine authority?

Trying to disern whether an individual has legitimately been called and authorized by God or is simply a usurper who is offering up "strange fire" and taking too much upon themselves can be difficult. However, I don't believe that we are left without means to rightly divide or weigh such matters. The ultimate litmus test I suppose is how the Holy Ghost bears record in a man's labors and the fruits that he bears in his ministry (I know this can be subjective). Here are some scriptures that I believe speak to the matter:

"Verily I say unto you, that ye are built upon my gospel; therefore ye shall call whatsoever things ye do call in my name; therefore if ye call upon the Father, for the church, if it be in my name, the Father will hear you; And if it so be that the church is built upon my gospel, then will the Father shew forth his own works in it; But if it be not built upon my gospel, and is built upon the works of men, or upon the works of the devil, verily I say unto you, They have joy in their works for a season, and by and by the end cometh, and they are hewn down and cast into the fire, from whence there is no return;" (III Nephi 12:21-23). Also: "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?" (III Nephi 6:27-28; Matt 7:24,25). Also: "And again, I will give unto you a pattern in all things, that ye may not be deceived; for Satan is abroad in the land, and he goeth forth deceiving the nations; wherefore he that prayeth whose spirit is contrite, the same is accepted of me, if he obey mine ordinances. He that speaketh, whose spirit is contrite, whose language is meek, and edifieth, the same is of God, if he obey mine ordinances. " (DC 52:4) Also: "And these signs shall follow them that believe: in my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; they shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover;..." (Mormon 4:87+) Also: "and in the mouth of two or three witnesses, shall every word be established." (DC 6:13b).

Other scriptural principles that apply:

1). Call/Revelation from God. Hebrews 5:4 And no man taketh this honor unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron.

2). Ordained by Holy Ghost. DC 17:12b is to be ordained according to the gifts and callings of God...by the power of the Holy Ghost which is in the one who ordains him.

3). Ordained by Another who holds the Keys. DC 42:4 except he be ordained by someone who has authority, and is known to the church that he has authority, and has been regularly ordained by the hands (heads) of the church

4). Law of Witnesses. DC 6:13b and in the mouth of two or three witnesses, shall every word be established.

5). Sustained by People. DC 17:14-16 No person is to be ordained to any office in this church...without the vote of that church. Preface of DC 19. Truly a key test of priesthood authority, will a man walk humbly in service before a people before he starts wanting his rights of authority. If not, he is usually a hireling.

6). Qualification. Mosiah 11:15 trusting no one to be your teachers nor your ministers, except he be a man of God, walking in his ways and keeping his commandments. DC 17:7, 18 truly manifest by works...before the church, and also before the elders, by a Godly walk and conversation...that there may be works and faith agreeable to the Holy Scriptures, walking in holiness before the Lord. 1 Timothy 3:1-13

7). Tokens of Authority. A man's labors, if he has power and authority from God, they will be accompanied by manifestations of the spirit, i.e. "these signs shall follow them" - see above

Let's see the visible tokens of your authority. Does your rod bud overnight or is it still a lifeless rod like the others?

Lastly, is the power of godliness manifest in the ministry of the priesthood - converting power, saving power in the ordinances of the church? Do the sick rise up from bed's of affliction? Are the prophetic gifts manifest? Not that we seek for such to consume it upon our lusts, but there should be power manifest - or else the heaven's withdraw and amen to the priesthood.

Mike Sanders

Book of Mormon Believer

Independence, MO

There is no verse 12 to section 17. Second 42:4 doesnt mention ordinantion.

[bcuzbcuz]

Alma 13:12 Now they, after being sanctified by the Holy Ghost, having their garments made white, being pure and spotless before God, could not look upon sin save it were with abhorrence;

4. Do we as individuals show signs that we have received the priesthood of God?

If the defining quality is as outlined in v. 12, I think you will have difficulty finding such qualities ONLY in LDS men. Furthermore, there are a good many people around the world, both men and women, who strive with all their might to turn their backs on the sins of the world.

Do LDS men shine and live spotless, head and shoulders above all other people in the world? If so, I'd appreciate some insight into something more than mere opinion to prove the point.

[Ahab]

If the defining quality is as outlined in v. 12, I think you will have difficulty finding such qualities ONLY in LDS men. Furthermore, there are a good many people around the world, both men and women, who strive with all their might to turn their backs on the sins of the world.

Do LDS men shine and live spotless, head and shoulders above all other people in the world? If so, I'd appreciate some insight into something more than mere opinion to prove the point.

It might be more easily understood if you understand that only LDS men have the priesthood of God, therefore there are works of righteousness other people of the world can't do even if they strive with all of their might... because they just can't act in behalf of God, in God's name, without having that authority. And the fact that they try simply shows their ignorance of that fact.

Baptizing someone else, for example. It's a work of righteousness when administered properly, with the proper authority, otherwise it only amounts to dunkiing someone in the water. And giving someone the gift of the Holy Ghost is another example of a work of righteousness, when administered properly by someone with the proper authority, otherwise that only amounts to someone putting their hands on someone else's head.

Repentance from sin is a good thing and something everyone should be doing but it doesn't require having the priesthood of God. Someone with the priesthood of God should be doing better at that than anyone else, though, mostly because they know better about what they should not be doing and what they should be doing instead. Someone who hasn't received the priesthood of God may not even know what they should be doing, and if you were to tell them they still might not accept that as something they should or should not be doing. Becoming a member of the true Church of Jesus Christ, for example, which requires receiving the priesthood of God even if you are not going to be ordained to an office in the priesthood, yourself.

[BCSpace]

I was merely pointing out that you seem to be as a child in the "why" phase. Go ahead and keep asking. The more you seek the more you will find.

"Except ye become as a little child...."

Actually, I know the answers, at least for myself. But it is very hard to express to someone who doesn't understand. And I'll be willing to bet that if this question were asked in GD class, the answers would largely be unsatisfactory especially to someone struggling to believe or not believing and I think those are the most important audiences,.

[BCSpace]

1. What do you think of this answer?

2. How would you expound on this answer if it is reasonable?

3. What other answers can you think of?

4. Do we as individuals show signs that we have received the priesthood of God?

...and any other question, insight, or epiphany you have about this question of the priesthood.

Great topic!

Thank you!

1. Wait, how many men who have Priesthood have ran ponzi schemes? Jodi arias is Mormon also right?

Well, there is the famous D&C 121, but running a ponzi scheme is not necessarily exercising the priesthood unrighteously unless there is an element of priestcraft.

2. I would liken the Priesthood to individual LDS men not every man in the church. The answer would be much better if brought to that level.

This is how everything can appropriately be treated as black and white. You have to break it down into elemental components or questions.

3. Miracles shall follow. Not only "big" miracles but works of righteousness.

Yet as predicted in scripture, people are always wondering were the miracles are. The scriptural examples are "big".

4. I see signs in other people more then I do myself.

Me too. But does that depress us and make us give up or does that inspire us to do better?

[BCSpace]

It's a reasonable answer.

I would expound on it with an example, such as when new stake presidents are called, which defies any principle of responsible succession planning or even emergency succession: A general authority spends a weekend, interviews a few men he doesn't know, and makes a selection that may seem random but turns out to result in the expansion and strengthening of the Church. Either the GA and the man that was called have the priesthood, or one of them has the priesthood, in order for progress to be the norm under such circumstances.

In my experience, the signs that I have the priesthood follow those that believe.

I like that. It has been my experience as well.

[theplains]

It's almost as if anyone, male or female or of any church, who is righteous by default holds the priesthood and that is essentially the "royal priesthood" claim of the Protestants.

Peter said, "But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people;

that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous

light" (1 Peter 2:9).

I believe this applies to all believers in Christ. Even females are called to exit darkness and enter

the light. Women are not guided into the light through the efforts of their male counterparts. Their

mediator is Christ himself. Christian women are also a holy nation, a peculiar people.

Regards,

Jim

[BCSpace]

Peter said, "But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people;

that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous

light" (1 Peter 2:9).

I believe this applies to all believers in Christ. Even females are called to exit darkness and enter

the light. Women are not guided into the light through the efforts of their male counterparts. Their

mediator is Christ himself. Christian women are also a holy nation, a peculiar people.

Yet upon women, the priesthood is not conferred.

[Stargazer]

Nvm

Edited May 18, 2013 by Stargazer

[Questing Beast]

So every baptized person of other faiths who claims to have received the Spirit and remission of sins, etc., is up in the night. They are just wishful thinking. They are mistaken in their FEELINGS. And the finger pointing continues, and nobody can know the truth simply by what they feel. Looks as if all assertions of "authority to act for God" are equal....

[CV75]

My intelligence.

But that is not what we are unltimately after, is it?