Does The Gospel Message Help With Personality Disorders

[CASteinman]

When you speak in terms of sociopathy/psychopathy (same thing) you're talking about a person without conscience, who lacks empathy and I believe this goes back to very early childhood regarding attachment and bonding. That is to say, I think there has to be some sort of motivation to manage one's behavior and without empathy, I cannot think of what could possibly motivate them.

Well, exactly. And so, my question might be put another way: "Have you ever seen the Gospel manage to help someone like that?"

Now, I should point out, that people with these disorders are not all equal. Some have them to extremes that are simply grotesque and utterly unacceptable. And some have them in a manner that they are able to control them enough to hold parts of their life together. But if someone has these disorders - there will always be serious things amiss in their behaviors.

[Avatar4321]

Yes. The Gospel message helps us with any problems we may suffer.

I have depression from time to time. I find that when I throw myself in serving the Lord, my depression is pretty much non-existant. And when Im careless with my relationship with the Lord, it's usually at it's worst.

When I first recognized the Spirit it was so powerful. I felt love and joy that cannot be replicated. Thats one of the reasons I've sought it out since.

I know we all have struggles. I think living the Gospel gives us power over any mental heallth disorders we have. At least it's my experience.

[CASteinman]

Speaking of personality disorders, let's not get hysterical or consider things in such black/white terms.

Oh my goodness. This is a grim subject but that was a funny comment. I suppose though, you have to know about PD's to get those references.

[sethpayne]

Perhaps you are being facetious in prescribing priesthood blessings to deal with demons but if not it is clear that you do not put the same level of credence in scripture and prophetic statement as you do the philosophies of men. Perhaps this counsel given to some early missionaries is of interest to you.

How in the world does my belief that demons do not cause mental illness in any way indicate what I have bolded above?

I said nothing about the existence of demons or the efficacy of priesthood blessings. I've seen some genuine miracles -- especially on my mission.

The Lord gave us modern medicine as a gift. He expects us to use reason and study. Science has, for some mental illness, discovered their physiological roots. Research shows that the best treatment for mental illness, in many many cases, is a combo of medication and cognitive therapy. In the face of what the Lord has given us through the gifts of science and medicine, why would we ignore it and go back to some pre-scientific view of illness? Seems completely nonsensical to me.

Blessings have their time and place. But exorcising demons should be kept out of medical treatment, IMO.

[sethpayne]

I think that what we see described in the Bible and other scriptures as "demons" are actually instances of mental illness, described as the ancients understood them to be in their own time.

I tend to agree, JG.

I certainly won't claim there is no such think as demons etc.... maybe there are. But we've been able to learn so much about the brain due to modern medicine. I think we should be thankful for the miracles wrought by science and medicine -- gifts from God. People who would have been locked away in an asylum just a couple of generations ago, could live a pretty normal life today with the right treatment. THAT is a miracle.

[Robert F. Smith]

CASteinman, on 09 April 2013 - 03:14 PM, said:

• What can the Gospel do for people with Personality Disorders?
  
• Does anyone here have experiences where they have seen someone with a serious Personality Disorder problem, become improved under Gospel influence?
  
• 
  

I think the most important thing the Gospel can do for people who struggle with these disorders is provide a loving community environment where the person can serve and be served. Community/family can provide spiritual and emotional support to a person suffering with mental health issues.

I have seen a couple of examples of people getting better with the help of the Church and the Gospel. HOWEVER -- and this is a big however -- progress was only made when these people obtained professional medical help. Meds and/or counseling. Just like the Gospel alone can't cure cancer, it can't cure a mental illness. However, just as with cancer, the Gospel can help bring comfort and spiritual perspectives during the treatment of a difficult disease.

Seth

When needed, LDS bishops tend to send dysfunctional people or the mentally ill to professional clinics for psychotherapy. Providing such help is part of the Gospel, as is the assistance of loving neighbors and friends. So Seth Payne is correct to recognized both community and professional help as key.

Indeed, in a society characterized by both anomie and rampant social networking, it is worth reminding everyone that a close, vibrant community of loving and neighborly people is essential to the good mental health of the members of that community. Among the Hutterite Brethren, for example, mental illness is practically unknown, and the Gospel is central to what they stand for, in tight communal fashion.

[CASteinman]

Among the Hutterite Brethren, for example, mental illness is practically unknown

http://books.google.com/books?id=xjKMgA94MdoC&pg=PA430&lpg=PA430&dq=personality+disorders+among+hutterites&source=bl&ots=Og3paGjb70&sig=-DplP08NI5EsUCTExDL9N4GVBaU&hl=en&sa=X&ei=L_BkUYzaAuq5ywGG8IGAAg&ved=0CDgQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=personality%20disorders%20among%20hutterites&f=false

[EllenMaksoud]

Through my life, I have had the opportunity to interact with people who have a kind of mental illness called "Personality Disorder". These are intractable conditions. I believe that they are generally considered incurable though not necessarily totally untreatable. Sometimes Personality Disorders grow out of pre-existing conditions (ADHD for example). Sometimes Personality Disorders seem to be upon people from a very early age -- so that it is impossible to know if the person wasn't actually born that way.

Furthermore, by their nature, people with Personality Disorders will usually not accept that there is anything wrong with them. In some types of Personality Disorder (not all), it is even part of their disorder and a "necessary" defense mechanism to utterly reject that idea and not consider it. In some cases, it never arises to failure to consider and rejection because it is simply "unheard".

And various types of personality disorders are worse to be around than others. Sociopaths are bad. Borderline can be horrific. Narcissists can also be just awful.

Sometimes, thinking and reading about satan, it seems to me like he is the embodiment of Personality Disorder. I don't mean by that to say that people with Personality Disorders are satanic or possessed. Truth is -- I don't know and my ignorance is so deep that I would not even speculate either way. What I am really trying to point out here though, is just how difficult people with Personality Disorders can be -- and how evil they can act sometimes.

I am not asking for abstract "the Gospel will heal All things" kinds of responses. Personality Disorders are just so hard and sometimes so bad that this sort of answer is possibly wrong and even if it is right, is way way too shallow for my purposes.

These are such serious problems and they challenge things I believe about faith and repentance and the atonement and healing.

• What can the Gospel do for people with Personality Disorders?
  
  
• Does anyone here have experiences where they have seen someone with a serious Personality Disorder problem, become improved under Gospel influence?
  

These are issues and concerns I have had ever since I first read about and encountered people with these problems, decades ago, so I thought I would ask here.

Thanks!

ETA: Please remember -- these people may be suffering but they do not know that they are the cause. Also, they may not be suffering -- the people around them are probably suffering as much or more.

Also remember: These people WILL NOT SEEK HELP.

In my opinion, the LAST place to look with personality disorders is daemons. Some people somehow survive horrific, unspeakable abuse and get into adulthood without being killed or committing a crime and going to prison. Common diagnosises I have seen are Borderline Personality Disorder (this varies in severity), PTSD (no you do not have to be in combat to get this), In my opinion, the love and tolerance shown in the LDS church can be a powerful tool. Daily prayer and scripture reading can be extremely helpful. Sometimes sufferers benefit with extra help in being accountable to these tasks. I am not a proponent of long time drug therapy except in cases like Bipolar and Schizophrenia like disorders.

[Glenn101]

This is an area where I do not thnink that we can find any really clearcut answers. How do we recognize whether the problem is something that the person affected cannot control or just will not control.

If the disorder is something that an individual can control, the Gospel can help them. But the person has to want to control it. Or rather, they have to want to control themselves. And they have to learn how to do so. Self control is one thing that the gospel teaches, or advocates.

For instance, a person suffering from depression may not be able to actually control his or her depression, but he or she may be able to learn how to control his or her actions when in the grip of depression. They may not be able to ridthemselves of that horrible, hopeless, black despair that washes over them, but they may be able to learn how to control how they act or react. If they can resist giving in to that, they may be able to work their way out far enough to be able to want to pray, or to be able to want to go to church, or be able to want to read their scriptures, and the spirit can begin to work with them.

On the other hand, that depression may grip them so tightly as to drain any desire to even try to resist. And, those standing on the outside looking on have no way of knowing just what the case is. And that is the scary part.

The Lord will separate the wheat from the tares st some point. Right now, we can just try to help those who will be helped and do the best we can with the others.

Glenn

[teddyaware]

Through my life, I have had the opportunity to interact with people who have a kind of mental illness called "Personality Disorder". These are intractable conditions. I believe that they are generally considered incurable though not necessarily totally untreatable. Sometimes Personality Disorders grow out of pre-existing conditions (ADHD for example). Sometimes Personality Disorders seem to be upon people from a very early age -- so that it is impossible to know if the person wasn't actually born that way.

Furthermore, by their nature, people with Personality Disorders will usually not accept that there is anything wrong with them. In some types of Personality Disorder (not all), it is even part of their disorder and a "necessary" defense mechanism to utterly reject that idea and not consider it. In some cases, it never arises to failure to consider and rejection because it is simply "unheard".

And various types of personality disorders are worse to be around than others. Sociopaths are bad. Borderline can be horrific. Narcissists can also be just awful.

Sometimes, thinking and reading about satan, it seems to me like he is the embodiment of Personality Disorder. I don't mean by that to say that people with Personality Disorders are satanic or possessed. Truth is -- I don't know and my ignorance is so deep that I would not even speculate either way. What I am really trying to point out here though, is just how difficult people with Personality Disorders can be -- and how evil they can act sometimes.

I am not asking for abstract "the Gospel will heal All things" kinds of responses. Personality Disorders are just so hard and sometimes so bad that this sort of answer is possibly wrong and even if it is right, is way way too shallow for my purposes.

These are such serious problems and they challenge things I believe about faith and repentance and the atonement and healing.

• What can the Gospel do for people with Personality Disorders?
  
  
• Does anyone here have experiences where they have seen someone with a serious Personality Disorder problem, become improved under Gospel influence?
  

These are issues and concerns I have had ever since I first read about and encountered people with these problems, decades ago, so I thought I would ask here.

Thanks!

ETA: Please remember -- these people may be suffering but they do not know that they are the cause. Also, they may not be suffering -- the people around them are probably suffering as much or more.

Also remember: These people WILL NOT SEEK HELP.

Think of it this way: The gospel and the power of the atonement will in all likelyhood eventually help those with these intractable and seemingly uncurable personality disorders. In the resurrection, the fallen mortal body (remember, the body also includes the brain) will be raised into immortality and healed of its earthly defects. All but the son's of perdition will be redeemed in the due time of the Lord, to enjoy life free of the devil in one of the Father's many mansions of glory.

The main problem with personality disorders is that the persons so afflicted lack a properly working conscience, and it is extremely difficult to make fundamental moral changes to one's life when lacking in the normal feelings of guilt, shame, empathy, and remorse. When one is bereft of normal emotions, it is a handicap just as real as blindness and hearing impairment.

The thing that's so maddening about dealing with those with sociopathy, borderline personality disorder, and narcissism is that these people do such evil and hurtful things, and though it's a natural human reaction to want to see them pay dearly for the havoc they wreak, yet one often feels he has to cut them some slack because they're incapable of the normal and healthy emotional responses needed in order to be a kind, thoughtful and empathetic person. In other words, they seem to be less accountable before the Lord for the damage and misery they cause because they have a very real, hard-wired malfunction of the mind.

Edited April 10, 2013 by teddyaware

[Questing Beast]

... -- these people may be suffering but they do not know that they are the cause. Also, they may not be suffering -- the people around them are probably suffering as much or more.

Also remember: These people WILL NOT SEEK HELP.

The most intimate relationship I have had with a personality disorder was with Brian David Mitchell. The gospel did not help him that I could tell, in fact, I would assert the very likelihood that the gospel made him worse in some ways, by providing justification for his narcissism, allowing him to label it as a "calling" from God, thus justifying everything he ever did, for he could do no wrong if he was acting through "revelation". Even the most trivial things would be cast in the guise of "revelation", to justify his any and every act, or failure to act. And Mitchell never sought help from anyone or anything that I ever heard of. His certainty was disturbingly immovable. When I knew him closely our religious world view was almost identical and he was living as a TBM. But in those few areas where we differed I never saw him budge an iota, and his more extreme beliefs led him on later to do the criminal things he was sent up for.

My experience with "personality disorders" is limited to say the least. So much so that, other than Mitchell, I cannot think of anyone that I have known who acts out that way. Perhaps the phenomenon is far more common than we casually realize, and it is religion and other paradigms of "follow the rules or else" that keep most personality disorders in line, such that we don't notice them in daily life. But their family and other closest relationships do know of their disorders. And I am confident that laying down the "law" as strongly as possible is the only way that such chaotic personalities are kept in line at all. So, yes, "the gospel" is useful in "treating" (if not curing) personality disorders, if by no other means than scaring them into compliance with "the law"....

[thesometimesaint]

Okay, I understand better what you're asking now. I am not a mental health professional, but here goes. I do think that some of the personality disorders you mentioned can be managed, I just don't know for how long a period of time that can last. When you speak in terms of sociopathy/psychopathy (same thing) you're talking about a person without conscience, who lacks empathy and I believe this goes back to very early childhood regarding attachment and bonding. That is to say, I think there has to be some sort of motivation to manage one's behavior and without empathy, I cannot think of what could possibly motivate them.

I am a mental health specialist(Albeit a retired one). We have a good record of cure and where cure is not possible management of the mental illness.

Sociopathy and Psychopathy are closely related but not always the same thing. Sociopathy and psychopathy are often used interchangeably, but in some cases the term sociopathy is preferred because it is less likely than is psychopathy to be confused with psychoticism, whereas in other cases which term is used may "reflect the user's views on the origins and determinates of the disorder," with the term sociopathy preferred by those that see the causes as due to social factors and early environment, and the term psychopathy preferred by those who believe that there are psychological, biological, and genetic factors involved in addition to environmental factors.

[wenglund]

For the most part, the science of mental health in the West concerns itself only with what is scientifically measurable and treatable. As such, it is entirely unaware of the spirit in man and the way it may impact and be impacted by the physical body and other forces (seen and unseen). Eastern science, on the other hand, takes a more holistic approach, and in its own way, may factor in a variety of external and internal influences (including the spiritual) that, while not directly observable through a microscope or any man-made devices, are nevertheless observable in the results.

Both approaches have their advantages and disadvantages. I find it useful to take the best from both. And, I am not alone. There is a growing branch of Western psycho-therapy that does likewise. It is called Cognitive Behavioral Therapy.

As such, unlike some on this thread, I am not so quick to rule out spiritual influences in cases of mental illness, let alone consider the very suggestion to be immoral, but I welcome the thought, and I consider the partnership between the Church and Social Services to be very beneficial, and this beyond providing community and support. I believe, and have witnessed, that healing of the spirit can have a positive impact on the body (mental and emotional), and healing the body can have a positive impact on the spirit.

But, to each their own.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[thesometimesaint]

For the most part, the science of mental health in the West concerns itself only with what is scientifically measurable and treatable. As such, it is entirely unaware of the spirit in man and the way it may impact and be impacted by the physical body and other forces (seen and unseen). Eastern science, on the other hand, takes a more holistic approach, and in its own way, may factor in a variety of external and internal influences (including the spiritual) that, while not directly observable through a microscope or any man-made devices, are nevertheless observable in the results.

Both approaches have their advantages and disadvantages. I find it useful to take the best from both. And, I am not alone. There is a growing branch of Western psycho-therapy that does likewise. It is called Cognitive Behavioral Therapy.

As such, unlike some on this thread, I am not so quick to rule out spiritual influences in cases of mental illness, let alone consider the very suggestion to be immoral, but I welcome the thought, and I consider the partnership between the Church and Social Services to be very beneficial, and this beyond providing community and support. I believe, and have witnessed, that healing of the spirit can have a positive impact on the body (mental and emotional), and healing the body can have a positive impact on the spirit.

But, to each their own.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

For reasons too complex to go into on this MB. We here in the Western World have gone to the scientific model of illness, including mental illnesses. IE; Things like Germ Theory have replaced punishments from God(s). Thus we can not impute any God or Supernatural force to illness. I agree that more research is needed in Oriental medicines and techniques. What is really needed is good Double Blind tests to see what is effective and what is not. That way we get the best of both worlds.

[CV75]

Personality Disorder is a bit hard to describe.

Problems that aren’t well described or understood require some discernment (whether professional or spiritual), and this is where the Gospel can help.

The Gospel helps a person who cannot accomplish something on his own through the ministrations of others. Often when our perceptions and understanding are refined by the Holy Ghost, combined with having power in the priesthood, we can succor the sick, and in turn their sense of relief may lead them into the realm of spiritual blessings. Then the Gospel helps a person help himself to progress.

Is your concern specific to a person that you are trying to help, or is it more general?

[CASteinman]

Is your concern specific to a person that you are trying to help, or is it more general?

I would say both. The issue has been one of concern to me for years, but I have recently encountered a specific individual and it came up again. I was curious to see if anyone had seen anything work.

[CV75]

I would say both. The issue has been one of concern to me for years, but I have recently encountered a specific individual and it came up again. I was curious to see if anyone had seen anything work.

This (and the other information you offered) is too general, and you didn't want general responses. If you can share what you have specifically been able to discern about the actual difficulty, we might be able to figure out how the Gospel message might be applied to managing the difficulty.

I just read something in the Ensign that might apply to dealing well with people that have gone off track: http://www.lds.org/ensign/2013/04/loved-back-into-activity?lang=eng

President Monson says, “All of you wear the mantle of charity. Life is perfect for none of us. Rather than being judgmental and critical of each other, may we have the pure love of Christ for our fellow travelers in this journey through life. May we recognize that each one is doing [his or] her best to deal with the challenges which come [his or] her way, and may we strive to do our best to help out.”

[EllenMaksoud]

I am a mental health specialist(Albeit a retired one). We have a good record of cure and where cure is not possible management of the mental illness.

Sociopathy and Psychopathy are closely related but not always the same thing. Sociopathy and psychopathy are often used interchangeably, but in some cases the term sociopathy is preferred because it is less likely than is psychopathy to be confused with psychoticism, whereas in other cases which term is used may "reflect the user's views on the origins and determinates of the disorder," with the term sociopathy preferred by those that see the causes as due to social factors and early environment, and the term psychopathy preferred by those who believe that there are psychological, biological, and genetic factors involved in addition to environmental factors.

I don't think anyone knows the etiology of many cognitive disorders, except PTSD perhaps. In my opinion, the people in the LDS church through love and nurturing do a lot to ease certain conditions. I do not know that we understand the origins of Bi-polar disorder, or of Schizoid personality disorder. I think that Borderline Personality is probably a learned behavior. Someone I talked to years ago told me that the best way to help those with non-violent disorders is to treat them as if they are normal.

AND, I think that Psych drugs are dramatically over prescribed and have resulted in a great deal of harm. Sometimes they make matters much worse.

Edited April 10, 2013 by EllenMaksoud

[DH]

A few things central to the Gospel have helped me and those I love with personality disorders. We are celestial creatures having a human experience. Understanding the difference between our perfect spirits and mortal bodies helped me deal with the fact that I have weaknesses that are not caused by sin and that getting help and treatment is no shame but a sign of strength. I have fought addictions and knowing that my family is the greatest eternal treasure short of exaltation has given me strength and motivation to do what is right and get help and give up my sins.

I recently had a discussion with my daughters fiance who suffers from the whole alphabet soup of ADD, OCD, Tourets, etc. and told him that I didn't care any more that he had those conditions than I would if he needed glasses or walked with a limp. He is a righteous and kind man who manages his conditions very well and works to be the best he can for my daughter who he plans to wed. Without my understanding of the priesthood and its role I'm not sure I could have reached that conclusion as easily as I do today.

Sometimes blessings don't heal us now - but they can give us the strength to bear our burdens and weaknesses. I know there is a large chance that these conditions will challenge their family into future generations- but the faith and love they both show towards each other - not expecting perfection in this life - but being willing to work towards promised eternal perfection, that is something I pray all my children and their children will understand half as well by the end of mortality as these two understand now before they are even sealed.

What KevinG said.

Mental illnesses, like physical illnesses (and in many cases mental illnesses are physical illnesses), may not always be curable, and we may have to wait till the next life for that. However, it is possible that the Gospel can help improve a person's life/bring some measure of happiness a little bit, even if it doesn't fix everything.

Having lived with two different people who had Borderline Personality Disorder, I can tell you, it's a real challenge! Wishing you the best, my friend.

[CASteinman]

This (and the other information you offered) is too general, and you didn't want general responses.

Well, what I was looking for was whether anyone had experiences or had seen any sort of way that a Gospel Influence had helped these kinds of people -- and if so, how did it help them and what was the process?

[wenglund]

For reasons too complex to go into on this MB. We here in the Western World have gone to the scientific model of illness, including mental illnesses. IE; Things like Germ Theory have replaced punishments from God(s). Thus we can not impute any God or Supernatural force to illness.

I am aware of this binary (black/white, either/or) way of thinking. Again, it has certain advantages and disadvantages.

And, there is a huge difference between germs and mental/emotional problems, otherwise treatment for mental illness could be simplified to merely dispensing antibiotics.

I agree that more research is needed in Oriental medicines and techniques. What is really needed is good Double Blind tests to see what is effective and what is not. That way we get the best of both worlds.

Even better still, I prefer not to close my mind and restrict my thinking solely to the limited view of Western science, and be open to other complimentary systems of belief--including those with an omniscient and loving God. Works for me. To each their own.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited April 10, 2013 by wenglund

[EllenMaksoud]

What KevinG said.

Mental illnesses, like physical illnesses (and in many cases mental illnesses are physical illnesses), may not always be curable, and we may have to wait till the next life for that. However, it is possible that the Gospel can help improve a person's life/bring some measure of happiness a little bit, even if it doesn't fix everything.

Having lived with two different people who had Borderline Personality Disorder, I can tell you, it's a real challenge! Wishing you the best, my friend.

Sorry to say it, I'm one of the people we've been talking about. Years of unspeakable abuse and some strange genetics along with my own sin nature caused it. While I didn't make the mess, I had to clean it up. There are therapy methods that will ease the problems, but those who have them still have to manage them. Those around me now, don't know and I don't speak of it. Still some things can be triggering but learning self help methods helps a lot. The unexpected healing that came with baptisim by those with the authority to do it had an astonishing, effect. Mental health professionals may not believe it but as sure as Joseph Smith is our prophet, it happened. The effects of Borderline Personality Disorder, PTSD, and who knows what are greatly diminished. The idea that these things are always the victims fault feels awful

It hurts a lot when people speak about us in desparaging terms.

[thesometimesaint]

I don't think anyone knows the etiology of many cognitive disorders, except PTSD perhaps. In my opinion, the people in the LDS church through love and nurturing do a lot to ease certain conditions. I do not know that we understand the origins of Bi-polar disorder, or of Schizoid personality disorder. I think that Borderline Personality is probably a learned behavior. Someone I talked to years ago told me that the best way to help those with non-violent disorders is to treat them as if they are normal.

AND, I think that Psych drugs are dramatically over prescribed and have resulted in a great deal of harm. Sometimes they make matters much worse.

It's ALL learned behavior. Some behaviors are just more functional in problem solving than others.

SEE http://www.brucedavenport.com/

Yes; that terrible thing happened to you. Now what are you going to do for the rest of your life?

No doubt that drugs are over prescribed. There are basically two reasons for this.

1. Most doctors are not trained in the mental health field, and any doctor can prescribe any drug.

2. Patients demand a magic bullet that cures all their ails in one easy shot, and seldom followup on needed counseling sessions to deal with the underlying problems.

Life, medicine, and psychotherapy just doesn't work that way.

Edited April 10, 2013 by thesometimesaint

[EllenMaksoud]

It's ALL learned behavior. Some behaviors are just more functional in problem solving than others.

SEE http://www.brucedavenport.com/

Yes; that terrible thing happened to you. Now what are you going to do for the rest of your life?

No doubt that drugs are over prescribed. There are basically two reasons for this.

1. Most doctors are not trained in the mental health field, and any doctor can prescribe any drug.

2. Patients demand a magic bullet that cures all their ails in one easy shot, and seldom followup on needed counseling sessions to deal with the underlying problems.

It mostly came to a head 9 years ago. Then came 4 years of DBT, three hours a week. Lots of drugs, and finally I asked for help getting off them. That was not a popular request. They did not want to believe that the drugs made matters worse. Now days, no one knows, thankfully I am away from the abusers, and single. I am a member of the church. No one knows. Once in a while things get hard. You have to learn to set boundaries about what is acceptable. Knowing when you can not participate in a discussion helps. Dissassociation hardly ever happens any more. There are those who love me around me, and it is pretty easy to understand that helping others and serving can do a world of good.

So, Yes Doctor, there are those of us who pick up our things and move on.

[Robert F. Smith]

http://books.google....terites&f=false

I stand corrected. However, I have submitted that comment to a couple experts for another opinion.