Physician heal thyself - or one another. (Mental / emotional illness)

[BlueDreams]

I really liked Jane Doe's analogy for being better trained in first aide or CPR in therapeutic terms. Following that analogy I think there's a reason why surgeons shouldn't do surgery on loved ones. And there's a reason why therapists try to avoid dual relationships and treat people they know IRL. 

I have a couple of problems with what you're suggesting. First off, I am a trained professional and do not feel qualified to treat my friends. Mainly because my friend relationship is different from my client relationship and needs to stay that way. I love my friends. I'm close to them, I'm there when they're in pain, and vice versa. But I've never been their therapist. There's been a couple of times where it's bled over a little more. Most recently with a previous roommate. It was helpful to her to an extent....it certainly didn't fix her. I was beginning to grow weary of it though. It's like my job never ended and I needed space to recoup and get back to work the next day. . Not end up making my roommate cry because my questions made her uncomfortably peer into her relationship and soul. And I seemed to do it without even meaning to. I had to set very strong boundaries with her so that she wouldn't end up talking to me for hours (it's not an exaggeration....my other 2 roommates at 2 different times weren't good at doing so and she would do just that). So I'd end up avoiding her and her me.  Unless I could tell something was really wrong. In which case I'd make her talk. She had her own therapist as well. She just need a LOT of help. I cared for her, but honestly, it was a relief when she moved. I value most of my friendships too much to do that 9 times out of 10. 

Second, is the promotion of one model of therapy as somehow the model everybody should learn. I think part of the strength in the therapy world is having multiple methods to therapy, not just one. I've personally benefited from people who were obviously influenced by psychodynamic therapy, CBT, and EFT. DBT is best for specific types of clients....specifically people with self-harming behaviors, certain personality disorders, certain eating disorders (mainly because there's some big overlap with the first two fields). Ie. certain extreme cases and presentations. DBT is also a fairly time intensive model to therapy when practiced in full. This isn't a model that can easily translate for layman's use because it's meant for people that laymen shouldn't be helping on their own anyways. I'm personally not trained in DBT. I've thought about it because I'm naturally good with borderline clients (I have a tendency to tamp down their emotional responses without meaning to). But I haven't as of yet and don't have plans to in the near future. 

My last problem is that this ignores that regular friends and family members already play a vital role to healing. They're the primary source for healthy attachments, care, and modeling of healthy behavior. Every once and a while I'll get a client who's had some serious diagnoses in the past or qualify for them. But because they have a secure loving attachment a lot of their worst symptomology just isn't as present in their day to day. On the other end, in many cases, the loved ones inadvertently contributing to the problem and ALSO need to be in therapy to help better interact. 

There's more than one form of healing that happens in a person's life. Therapists are only a small part of that. Parents, siblings, extended family, friends, partners, and church communities all play diverse roles that are vital in their own domains of influence. In my personal life, the therapists I've seen have generally helped to unstick me at crucial moments....but other sources and people were crucial in shaping my overall healing. I don't think mental health is fixed by lodging everybody further into one category. Rather we need to all learn to lift where we stand, listen, and have compassion to those nearest us. Just live our baptismal covenants and honestly, that would already do the world a lot of good.

 

With luv,

BD

 

[hagoth7]

26 minutes ago, BlueDreams said:

I really liked Jane Doe's analogy for being better trained in first aide or CPR in therapeutic terms.

Yes, what she said is something I'm still thinking about. I was hoping youl'd wade in. Thank you for doing so.

So if it was something more along the lines of triage, or spot help,  intended to help them get a loved one to a less-entangled, more-qualified somebody else, you'd be more hopeful  about something like that?

...I think there's a reason why surgeons shouldn't do surgery on loved ones. And there's a reason why therapists try to avoid dual relationships and treat people they know IRL. 

Which is why I thought in the Social forum thread on music that Tacenda's brother's girlfriend just might have let her feelings get in the way of her better judgement...when I asked about what might have triggered his bender.

I have a couple of problems with what you're suggesting. First off, I am a trained professional and do not feel qualified to treat my friends....But I've never been their therapist...It's like my job never ended and I needed space to recoup and get back to work the next day...I value most of my friendships too much to do that 9 times out of 10. 

Understood. Worlds collide. The need to maintain objectiviity via arms-length distance. And space for both to breathe. Letting friends/family simply provide the support/healing they normally do.

That said, what's your take on NAMI's educational approach to uptraining family to be a bit more aware of what their loved ones are going through, (and the ripple effecdt of what each of them are thereby going through) , equpping them to better shore up *their own* support system?

 Not end up making my roommate cry because my questions made her uncomfortably peer into her relationship and soul.

Hmm. I get that a lot. Too much in fact. I feel bad when people cry in response to a question intended for something much more beneficial. And then others turn and assume I was a jerk for making someone cry. Double jeopardy.

Might need to stop asking questions among those I care about most. 

Second, is the promotion of one model of therapy as somehow the model everybody should learn. 

That's not quite my meaning. A distroted caricature, in fact.

I don't deem it a cureall. Or something to be done at the expense of other approaches. Or something that everyone need learn.

Simply the matter of addressing the gap. The unmet need of some of the self-hurting...

Where those *needing* a solution *far* outnumber the people available to step in. 

You acknowledge the amount of time to help 1 person. 1 sheep. Needing DBT. And hesitate getting licensed in part for that very reason. Bandwidth. Helping 1 with DBT comes at the opportunity cost of helping several others who need less-time-intensive treatment.

What I'm suggesting is that your understandable and fully-justified thought process there is representative of the industry. You do what you do to help people. And see adding DBT to your quiver as limiting the number of people you can reach/help.  Likely the very opposite of why you got into this field. And an approach that would make it more difficult to be profitable, since many of those needing DBT are the least likely to be able to afford a single session, let alone regular ones. Hard to build a business and keep a roof over one's head if one is focusing on treating such. 

What then? If your justified thought process is a microcosm/fractal of what many like you will prioritize in how *you* triage your own licensing...what then?

How is the gap between the vast number of those needing such treatment...vs. the paucity of people prepared to wade in to help that aching need...ever gonna shift much in the favor of that 1 sheep needing relief/release/hhealing (multiplied 10,000 times over)?

Other than generating an onramp, like I'm suggesting, to allow *any* who feel called to that work, to that part of the vineyard,  to first armor up and then wade in,  what do you recommend as a means to meet the unmet aching need?

(Over the years, I've designed some very delicate-but-effective training/certification solutions at federal, corporate and academic levels, job aids, support systems, etc., in settings where lives were literally at stake, and after acknowledging/appreciating/factoring in your concens/caveats, I still have cause to believe a means to equip others to wade in is quite doable...not to mention direly needed.)

If not something like that, what then would bridge the gap for the 1? The 1 that people like yourself understandably can't justify the time & opportunity cost to uptrain/license/serve?

...DBT is best for specific types of clients....specifically people with self-harming behaviors...DBT is also a fairly time intensive model to therapy when practiced in full. This isn't a model that can easily translate for layman's use because it's meant for people that laymen shouldn't be helping on their own anyways.

Then let me be more clear. I'm not talking about deploying laymen. I'm instead talking first about enlisting laymen/women who have the heart/grit to wade into that fray. (EVERY therepist was once a greenhorn outsider looking in.)  But after enlisting such, the focus is to provide them an onramp to become something else. Online universities are an effecdtive means to onramp to many beneficial fields. BYU-I is leading the pack on that. And so as to not be a hypocrite (at least in that facet of life)  I intentionally shifted my own education track from brick-and-mortar to a distance-learrning the start of my senior year, to get a better taste of what does and doesn't work -  at least for the interplay between social sciences and my learning style.  

So I'm talking about armoring myself and others up through an onramp/certification process (which I've been enlisted in times past to do for the likes of Adobe, Microsoft, high-voltage repair workers, and a sister branch to OSHA) onramping/licensing approaches as effective as you'd see in a brick-and-mortar approach (where I've taught), equipping halo-insertion teams to reach the 1...and after that initial onramping providing them with a tether and feedback-loop tools needed to continue improving for as long as they feel called to that work. 

If caring/helpful people like you acknowledge the need, yet also acnowledge not having the bandwidth, what then?

[hagoth7]

2 hours ago, BlueDreams said:

My last problem is that this ignores that regular friends and family members already play a vital role to healing...in many cases, the loved ones inadvertently contributing to the problem and ALSO need to be in therapy to help better interact. 

Points noted. Thank you.

2 hours ago, BlueDreams said:

There's more than one form of healing that happens in a person's life....helped to unstick me at crucial moments....but other sources and people were crucial in shaping my overall healing.

More than one. Agreed. Completely

That said, what then is to be done with/for those who don't have (and sometimes can't afford) a qualified someone to *help them* get unstuck in that *one* painful facet of reality? Reportedly, an ongoing, self-generating personal hell? 

Harvest...white/ready. Laborers...few.

2 hours ago, BlueDreams said:

I don't think mental health is fixed by lodging everybody further into one category. 

Neither do I.

I'm currently focusing on *one* note in a broader chorus/symphony , the note that currently ain't being sung. (Added: brings to mind this.)

Not at all ignoring the importance of the rest of the percussion/brass/strings/vocals. 

2 hours ago, BlueDreams said:

...Rather we need to all learn to lift where we stand, listen, and have compassion to those nearest us. Just live our baptismal covenants and honestly, that would already do the world a lot of good.

Whle true in general, what you propose is not universally true. For some , yes. For others, we need to seek out our calling/ministry, something frequently taught in conference. And then ramp up for it. For the latter, per the likes of D&C 88 and similar, it's not just a matter of wading in with the army we have...it's also about some of us burning a wee bit of candle (or merely shutting off the tube 15-20 minutes a night) to armor up for the things that better equip us to wade in where others can't/won't. 

It's not my place/desire to *tell* others where to lift. Or which frays to wade into to. Or which note(s) to play/sing.

Those few who resonate/yearn for this specific ministry will know, for themselves, that it's for them.

And if it (initially) ends up being just me and the other who waded in on day 1 (as is typical for him), his companionship/compassion/wisdom will do...as it has in times past...to stand in *this* gap for as long as it takes...until inertia is shattered, a clear path is charted, *we* are healed, the baton is passed, and that task is deemed sufficiently done.

Edited July 13, 2017 by hagoth7

[BlueDreams]

14 minutes ago, hagoth7 said:

Yes, what she said is something I'm still thinking about. I was hoping youl'd wade in. Thank you for doing so.

So if it was something more along the lines of triage, or spot help,  intended to help them get a loved one to a less-entangled, more-qualified somebody else, you'd be more hopeful  about something like that?Which is why I thought in the Social forum thread on music that Tacenda's brother's girlfriend just might have let her feelings get in the way of her better judgement...when I asked about what might have triggered his bender.

 

Quote

 

Understood. Worlds collide. The need to maintain objectiviity via arms-length distance. And space for both to breathe. Letting friends/family simply provide the support/healing they normally do.

That said, what's your take on NAMI's educational approach to uptraining family to be a bit more aware of what their loved ones are going through, (and the ripple effecdt of what each of them are thereby going through) , equpping them to better shore up *their own* support system?

 

That's just good systems oriented therapy. As an MFT, I do it all the time.

Quote

 

Hmm. I get that a lot. Too much in fact. I feel bad when people cry in response to a question intended for something much more beneficial. And then others turn and assume I was a jerk for making someone cry. Double jeopardy.

Might need to stop asking questions among those I care about most. 

 

Oh no, from your description it's definitely not the same. She didn't assume I was a jerk. In fact she trusted my opinion and opened up about problems in ways she wouldn't anybody else minus her actual therapist. I'm pretty good at knowing when I'm pushing someone beyond what they're ready for and know when to stop or to at least rearrange the situation so that their defensiveness just becomes another place of introspection and exploration. It was just that her problems weren't far from the surface and were pretty big. I couldn't help but hit something without making her crying. 

Quote

 

That's not quite my meaning. A distroted caricature, in fact.

I don't deem it a cureall. Or something to be done at the expense of other approaches. Or something that everyone need learn.

Simply the matter of addressing the gap. The unmet need of some of the self-hurting...

Where those *needing* a solution *far* outnumber the people available to step in. 

You acknowledge the amount of time to help 1 person. 1 sheep. Needing DBT. And hesitate getting licensed in part for that very reason. Bandwidth. Helping 1 with DBT comes at the opportunity cost of helping several others who need less-time-intensive treatment.

What I'm suggesting is that your understandable and fully-justified thought process there is representative of the industry. You do what you do to help people. And see adding DBT to your quiver as limiting the number of people you can reach/help.  Likely the very opposite of why you got into this field. And an approach that would make it more difficult to be profitable, since many of those needing DBT are the least likely to be able to afford a single session, let alone regular ones. Hard to build a business and keep a roof over one's head if one is focusing on treating such. 

 

No, that's not my reasoning at all for not seeking further training on DBT. I'm good at my job, I love my work, and I love the clientele that I already see. It wouldn't limit and it would likely be a selling point. But the reason I have the innate talent is because my mom has similar traits to someone who's borderline. I don't know if she is, but the emotional behavior has definite similarities. Plus my family was emotionally chaotic. I ended up caretaking at a young age, mitigating my family's problems. It left a number of scars that I've mostly worked through or was healed from. But it also left some definite strengths. The ones specific to high risk concerns is that I don't have normal reactions to tension and conflict. I get calmer in them. I can detach, find the weak spot, and shift the conversation in just a way to reduce the problem. But with big problems, it's tiring and it taps a little too close to home at times. I don't mind a few at a time. It gives me a challenge. But more than that and I've got a problem. I can use my talents in other ways and do regularly. I already see people with suicidal ideation problems or self-harming behaviors. I just work with them in different ways than DBT. People with personality disorders, self-harming behaviors, etc are far from being money drains....they're often chronic clients and in a way are a sure way to have consistent clientele. The few that i've had were among my longest clients. But they're also an emotional drain. They take a bit out of you each time. 

I got into my field because it made perfect sense. I have talents and capacities that gave me an edge in working in my field. I don't do it to make bank.  I do it because I love my work and helping people. I've just found a different niche for doing that. One where self-harm and personality disorders are less the focus and other issues that are also often poorly addressed are. Like emotional abuse, sexual dysfunctions, gender disparities, etc.  
 

Quote

 

What then? If your justified thought process is a microcosm/fractal of what many like you will prioritize in how *you* triage your own licensing...what then?

How is the gap between the vast number of those needing such treatment...vs. the paucity of people prepared to wade in to help that aching need...ever gonna shift much in the favor of that 1 sheep needing relief/release/hhealing (multiplied 10,000 times over)?

 

Well, some of this would entail restructuring therapy. Some of this could better be met by preventative care. The thing with personality disorder, self-harming behaviors, and the like.....is that a lot of the emotional trauma could have been prevented.   They're shaped in large part by family and social spheres. So if you want to work on a good chunk of these, work on families and better education and outreach to struggling or at-risk families. And my "justification" isn't that it's a small problem. My firm belief is simiply that I can't save the world of all its maladies. I'm not Jesus...and even He only saves those who really want saving. As I mentioned, i already work a field that there's few resources for. It's a niche field and specialty all its own. When I was first deciding on the career path I'd take, I was struggling because I knew that a good number of my clientele would likely be well-off white people. I was concerned that it was a waste of what I could do or if the work wasn't "good enough" when I could work more underserved populations. The answer I had then was that wherever I served, it would be needed and good. And it has been just that. If I need to take a new direction as God asks, I will. But that's just not where I'm at today. 
And I'm sad when I hear of others who continue to suffer and have fewer resources available to them.  But there are others who do take on the line of work you're suggesting. 

Quote

Other than generating an onramp, like I'm suggesting, to allow *any* who feel called to that work, to that part of the vineyard,  to first armor up and then wade in,  what do you recommend as a means to meet the unmet aching need?

(Over the years, I've designed some very delicate-but-effective training/certification solutions at federal, corporate and academic levels, job aids, support systems, etc., in settings where lives were literally at stake, and after acknowledging/appreciating/factoring in your concens/caveats, I still have cause to believe a means to equip others to wade in is quite doable...not to mention direly needed.)

If not something like that, what then would bridge the gap for the 1? The 1 that people like yourself understandably can't justify the time & opportunity cost to uptrain/license/serve?

 

I don't know if I have a single solution. There isn't a magic bullet to this. Some of the concern is that you can't get specialists in rural kansas. And the field you're asking for is a call for specialist training. I've mentioned things that can be done that would fall more in lines of family and community awareness, better social nets to catch at risk youths, better funding for existing programs, etc. 

Quote

Then let me be more clear. I'm not talking about deploying laymen. I'm instead talking first about enlisting laymen/women who have the heart/grit to wade into that fray. (EVERY therepist was once a greenhorn outsider looking in.)  But after enlisting such, the focus is to provide them an onramp to become something else. Online universities are an effecdtive means to onramp to many beneficial fields. BYU-I is leading the pack on that. And so as to not be a hypocrite (at least in that facet of life)  I intentionally shifted my own education track from brick-and-mortar to a distance-learrning the start of my senior year, to get a better taste of what does and doesn't work -  at least for the interplay between social sciences and my learning style.  

So I'm talking about armoring myself and others up through an onramp/certification process (which I've been enlisted in times past to do for the likes of Adobe, Microsoft, high-voltage repair workers, and a sister branch to OSHA) onramping/licensing approaches as effective as you'd see in a brick-and-mortar approach (where I've taught), equipping halo-insertion teams to reach the 1...and after that initial onramping providing them with a tether and feedback-loop tools needed to continue improving for as long as they feel called to that work. 

 

That's easier said than done. Training for therapy is really not comparable for training for Adobe. Not every person should be a therapist. And to say I was a "greenhorn outside" pre-therapy training isn't exactly accurate. I had raw talent and capacity for it. And I still have tools now that allow me to excel at my work. Many simply don't. Enlisting is fine....but I'm concerned and hesitant about large-scale efforts or do-gooder mobilizations that can at times hit some serious pit falls. I believe that sometimes the desire to help outweighs our actual capacities to do so. And when that happens more harm can be done than it solves. People are not computer programs, houses, or an education program. They're tricky. And not all are cut out to work well with them on the inner workings.

 

Quote

If caring/helpful people like you acknowledge the need, yet also acnowledge not having the bandwidth, what then?

That's the thing....other therapists DO have the "bandwidth" (whatever that means). Not every therapist can/want to do what I do and that's ok. Likewise I can't/don't want to do what other therapists do. 

 

With luv,

BD

[Kenngo1969]

17 hours ago, Tacenda said:

... I've come to think now, that I should have listened to my oldest sister when she said my brother is a sociopath. I didn't even take time to research until today. It sure feels hopeless for sure. 

I know the LDS church use to help with counseling to those that couldn't afford it. I might need to check it out for my brother. 

I'm not sure exactly what she means when she says he's a sociopath.  In my perhaps-ill-informed layperson opinion, I'm not sure an accurate diagnosis of sociopathy can be made unless and until substance abuse issues also have been addressed. Substances make a lot of people jerks who actually are rather nice people when the substances aren't influencing them to do horrible things they otherwise would not do.  And in order for substance abuse treatment to be effective, a person has to (1) know he has a problem; (2) want help for the problem; and (3) believe he can be helped with the problem.

I wish you and your family well.

[Tacenda]

51 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

I'm not sure exactly what she means when she says he's a sociopath.  In my perhaps-ill-informed layperson opinion, I'm not sure an accurate diagnosis of sociopathy can be made unless and until substance abuse issues also have been addressed. Substances make a lot of people jerks who actually are rather nice people when the substances aren't influencing them to do horrible things they otherwise would not do.  And in order for substance abuse treatment to be effective, a person has to (1) know he has a problem; (2) want help for the problem; and (3) believe he can be helped with the problem.

I wish you and your family well.

This is so helpful, thanks Ken!

[Kenngo1969]

3 hours ago, Tacenda said:

This is so helpful, thanks Ken!

You're welcome.  

[hagoth7]

4 hours ago, BlueDreams said:

Oh no, from your description it's definitely not the same. She didn't assume I was a jerk....

It was precisely the same in the intent.

Was simply interpreted/received *as if* it had been delivered with topspin. Which it wasn't

I don't do it to make bank.  I do it because I love my work and helping people. ... 

I know.  And I appreciate it.

If I seemed to suggest otherwise, once again, topspin merely assumed, where absoultely none was intended. 

..So if you want to work on a good chunk of these, work on families and better education and outreach to struggling or at-risk families. ..

Good input. Had started shifting/repurposing a number of things last month for that purpose. 

And my "justification" isn't that it's a small problem.

Again, no topspin/condemnation intended. Was simply meaning that we all usually have valid inernal reasoning for the choices/priorities we make. Wasn't intended to be understood as criticizing the choice.

In hindsight, I should have chosen a different word.

My firm belief is simply that I can't save the world of all its maladies. 

Agreed. Completely.

Wasn't at all intended as a foot criticizing a hand for serving a different (needed) funcdtion.

The answer I had then was that wherever I served, it would be needed and good.

:0) Elder Bednar.  

don't know if I have a single solution. There isn't a magic bullet to this.  

Not suggesting otherwise.

...Training for therapy is really not comparable for training for Adobe. 

? I know.

Wasn't suggesting...at all..that it was. 

Kinda suprised, and honestly a little disappointed, that you opted to pluck one of the least-like examples to exaggerate a point to the point of the absurd. ?Have I offended you in some way? Unintentionally slighted the complexity of the type of work  you do?  If so, please let me make amends. 

..Not every person should be a therapist.

I know. Soft skills vs. technical. Apples and Orangutangs.

My experience is a wee bit understated.  Have co-developed my fair share of soft-skills solutions, including effective MBTI-based solutions (temperment training/assessments) for teams and managers, and award-winning mission-statement work for a national sales team. The core of that work ,15 years later, is still being taught, advocated, and used.

As to who should/shouldn't become a therapist, I know, selection criteria is important so that those serving and those being served are both being strengthened rather than harmed. In my work in HRD, I have designed enough recrruiting/hiring solutions to be comfortable addressing that issue. Solutions that reasonably determine who is best suited to fill which orgnaizational need...with gap assessments, to help them onramp, should they choose to accept, to rapidly grow into what the org (and the people the organization serves) would benefit most from them becoming. ..   

As to whether *I* should assist in such a thing as actual counseling,  that's obviously largely between me and Heaven, as it would be for anybody else. But to move behind hominem concerns, if it streamlines the bandwidth of expressed concern in this thread, to allow us to instead focus on greater things, I'm an advocate of the idea that if the willingness is there, God takes care of the qualifications. And sometimes, opportunity and preparedness meet. I have a degree in the right field for counseling and MBT. the right personal background, an appropriate temperament mix, the societal need is there, and I have been encouraged multiple times over the last year by several who know/understand me better than blood,  to pivot my career/focus in the direction of social work/counseling/serving...specifically among those who are hanging on to the last threads of their rope. I was there myself once, and can relate. I mention this stuff not to toot my kazoo, but to hopefully move the discussion beyond fear/concern/doubt, to focus more on constructive choices.

Like the path you have chosen for yourself, this path appeals to my strengths and core desires. And is one of the small handful of secular fields/ministries I am drawn to consider.

I'm basically gonna wade into this here in the states, and pursue an advanced degree more suited to that field,  or migrate to one of a couple of places that are tugging at me, and advance this project on the side and wade in elsewhere on other pressing social concerns.  (And then there's Door # 3 unstring the bow and fade into the trees for a wee bit.)

And to say I was a "greenhorn outside" pre-therapy training isn't exactly accurate.

That statment not only had no topspin, but wasn't even directed towards you.

I refer to *myself* here often enough as a greenhorn, and the reference there was to the fact, hopefully encouraging to any considering wading in, that in *every* field, we each start at ignorance and patiently work our way to competence and even expertise.  A conference talk perhaps 25 years ago (don't remember of it was a stake or general conference) talked about the importance of wading into secular learning today, and that 15-20 minutes of focused study daily was suffiicient to become an expert in something over several years...years that will pass by regardless of whether we're investing a few minutes sharpening that saw or not.

...I'm concerned and hesitant about large-scale efforts or do-gooder mobilizations that can at times hit some serious pit falls. I believe that sometimes the desire to help outweighs our actual capacities to do so. And when that happens more harm can be done than it solves.

As to large-scale? I wouldn't attempt to roll something out large scale until it been tested, iterated and proven sound on a smaller scale. And her work already has been honed  - for more than a decade, and proven sound.  It's then a  more simple matter of helping make that work more accessible (the same work one would be engaging with sitting in a brick-and-mortar campus), and building a network of support for the appropriate few who opt to wade in and ramp up.

While I genuinely appreciate cautions, from one of my favorite films: :"Fear is the mindkiller."

Suggestions? Please.

Encouragment? Fine.

Pointing out potential pitfalls. Yes. Please, please, and please.

Will mistakes be made? If you claim you make none, I'll publicly eat my sock, with catsup.  A wise man once said that if you occasoinally fall on your face,  that's as least an indicator that you were moving forward.

People are not computer programs, houses, or an education program. They're tricky. And not all are cut out to work well with them on the inner workings.

I'm not suggesting otherwise. And I know that interpersonal stuff is where I currently suck. Weak things.

D&C 80 and Hebrews 12:12, please lift up the hands of knuckle draggers like me. .

That's the thing....other therapists DO have the "bandwidth" (whatever that means).

If that's true, why, when I sought to find someone certified in DBT as recently as last summer, was there only one person in the entire state? (And he was only doing it part time as a side/evening gig to help people.)  If you're saying the need is already being met, that isn't *at all* what I'm been told by friends and pastors who have had their thumb on the pulse of hotlines.  

More importantly, that claim runs contrary to a very troubling spike in a very measurable socieital metric. 

All is not well in Zion. 

[hagoth7]

BD,

Bottom line, if you know someone who is qualified, with sufficient bandwidth to get the therapy rapidly out to those needing it, that need being met & resolved is what matters.

Doesn't have to be me.

There are several other projects and places requesting focus.

[BlueDreams]

4 hours ago, hagoth7 said:

It was precisely the same in the intent.

Was simply interpreted/received *as if* it had been delivered with topspin. Which it wasn't

I know.  And I appreciate it.

If I seemed to suggest otherwise, once again, topspin merely assumed, where absoultely none was intended. 

Good input. Had started shifting/repurposing a number of things last month for that purpose. 

Again, no topspin/condemnation intended. Was simply meaning that we all usually have valid inernal reasoning for the choices/priorities we make. Wasn't intended to be understood as criticizing the choice.

In hindsight, I should have chosen a different word.

Agreed. Completely.

Wasn't at all intended as a foot criticizing a hand for serving a different (needed) funcdtion.

:0) Elder Bednar.  

Not suggesting otherwise.

? I know.

Wasn't suggesting...at all..that it was. 

Kinda suprised, and honestly a little disappointed, that you opted to pluck one of the least-like examples to exaggerate a point to the point of the absurd. ?Have I offended you in some way? Unintentionally slighted the complexity of the type of work  you do?  If so, please let me make amends. 

I know. Soft skills vs. technical. Apples and Orangutangs.

I'm not offended, just very confused as to where you're trying to go with this. I couldn't see how business ventures and team building for companies applied to the area you're suggesting. The had little in common to me. 

 

Quote

 

My experience is a wee bit understated.  Have co-developed my fair share of soft-skills solutions, including effective MBTI-based solutions (temperment training/assessments) for teams and managers, and award-winning mission-statement work for a national sales team. The core of that work ,15 years later, is still being taught, advocated, and used.

As to who should/shouldn't become a therapist, I know, selection criteria is important so that those serving and those being served are both being strengthened rather than harmed. In my work in HRD, I have designed enough recruiting/hiring solutions to be comfortable addressing that issue. Solutions that reasonably determine who is best suited to fill which orgnaizational need...with gap assessments, to help them onramp, should they choose to accept, to rapidly grow into what the org (and the people the organization serves) would benefit most from them becoming. ..   

As to whether *I* should assist in such a thing as actual counseling,  that's obviously largely between me and Heaven, as it would be for anybody else. But to move behind hominem concerns, if it streamlines the bandwidth of expressed concern in this thread, to allow us to instead focus on greater things, I'm an advocate of the idea that if the willingness is there, God takes care of the qualifications. And sometimes, opportunity and preparedness meet. I have a degree in the right field for counseling and MBT. the right personal background, an appropriate temperament mix, the societal need is there, and I have been encouraged multiple times over the last year by several who know/understand me better than blood,  to pivot my career/focus in the direction of social work/counseling/serving...specifically among those who are hanging on to the last threads of their rope. I was there myself once, and can relate. I mention this stuff not to toot my kazoo, but to hopefully move the discussion beyond fear/concern/doubt, to focus more on constructive choices.

 

Okay.....
I'm just not following you.

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Like the path you have chosen for yourself, this path appeals to my strengths and core desires. And is one of the small handful of secular fields/ministries I am drawn to consider.

I'm basically gonna wade into this here in the states, and pursue an advanced degree more suited to that field,  or migrate to one of a couple of places that are tugging at me, and advance this project on the side and wade in elsewhere on other pressing social concerns.  (And then there's Door # 3 unstring the bow and fade into the trees for a wee bit.)

That statment not only had no topspin, but wasn't even directed towards you.

I refer to *myself* here often enough as a greenhorn, and the reference there was to the fact, hopefully encouraging to any considering wading in, that in *every* field, we each start at ignorance and patiently work our way to competence and even expertise.  A conference talk perhaps 25 years ago (don't remember of it was a stake or general conference) talked about the importance of wading into secular learning today, and that 15-20 minutes of focused study daily was suffiicient to become an expert in something over several years...years that will pass by regardless of whether we're investing a few minutes sharpening that saw or not.

 

 

 

My point wasn't whether or not I was a greenhorn, but that my past had inevitably shaped where I would go, therapy-wise. There was "raw talent" per se....similar to how most artists have some "raw talent" in them. As in, not everybody would be a great therapist and I'm not a fan of merging therapist with lay people. But now I'm not sure if I even get what you're suggesting as a solution or idea in the first place. 

But you're welcome to follow whatever floats your boat. 

Quote

As to large-scale? I wouldn't attempt to roll something out large scale until it been tested, iterated and proven sound on a smaller scale. And her work already has been honed  - for more than a decade, and proven sound.  It's then a  more simple matter of helping make that work more accessible (the same work one would be engaging with sitting in a brick-and-mortar campus), and building a network of support for the appropriate few who opt to wade in and ramp up.

While I genuinely appreciate cautions, from one of my favorite films: :"Fear is the mindkiller."

Suggestions? Please.

Encouragment? Fine.

Pointing out potential pitfalls. Yes. Please, please, and please.

Will mistakes be made? If you claim you make none, I'll publicly eat my sock, with catsup.  A wise man once said that if you occasoinally fall on your face,  that's as least an indicator that you were moving forward.

I'm not suggesting otherwise. And I know that interpersonal stuff is where I currently suck. Weak things.

 

My cautions aren't fear based. At this point they're largely confusion based. Maybe if you had simple bullet pointed constructs with each bullet being a sentence or two that would help. 

 

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D&C 80 and Hebrews 12:12, please lift up the hands of knuckle draggers like me. .

If that's true, why, when I sought to find someone certified in DBT as recently as last summer, was there only one person in the entire state? (And he was only doing it part time as a side/evening gig to help people.)  If you're saying the need is already being met, that isn't *at all* what I'm been told by friends and pastors who have had their thumb on the pulse of hotlines.  

More importantly, that claim runs contrary to a very troubling spike in a very measurable socieital metric. 

All is not well in Zion

Of course it isn't. we're not yet entirely zion in the first place. There's plenty of problems to find in our vineyard. And I have no clue why your specific state has so few DBT oriented therapists. I just googled my state in pyschology today for therapists who placed this as at least one of their specialties and found several pages worth. Sometime different areas of the country promote different models of therapy more.  But even when I put some smaller population states there were still a few...South Dakota had the fewest and still had 2 pages worth. 

I'm not saying the need is being met. I'm saying that this specific area is one that is very difficult to meet. And that meeting it may not be best done just through therapy. Which with some of the issues you're mentioning is similar to taking care of something broken when you could have prevented it from braking. Some areas, I'm assuming, are better at it than others. And I think that if you're wanting something that has the most effect and could be better implemented and entail more lay-people, it would be preventative outreach for at-risk families and youth. As well as learning signs and symptms for what at-risk families or youth may look like.  

 

4 hours ago, hagoth7 said:

BD,

Bottom line, if you know someone who is qualified, with sufficient bandwidth to get the therapy rapidly out to those needing it, that need being met & resolved is what matters.

Doesn't have to be me.

There are several other projects and places requesting focus.

I wasn't thinking that it was necessarily you. I assumed you were talking in abstract towards others. 

 

With luv,

BD

Edited July 14, 2017 by BlueDreams

[hagoth7]

3 hours ago, BlueDreams said:

I'm not offended, just very confused as to where you're trying to go with this. I couldn't see how business ventures and team building for companies applied to the area you're suggesting. The had little in common to me.  

Simply a response to your expressed concern that being a therapist isn't for everyone. 

The details don't qjuite matter this late.

3 hours ago, BlueDreams said:

...I assumed you were talking in abstract towards others. 

The "physician heal thyself" was *not* at all directed at therapists like yourself.

It was instead a delayed, measured response to someone in this forum who several days back had said *to me* "physician heal thyself." And this thread was a response to that, after letting it percolate/pickle/season a wee bit.

The overall purpose of the thread was to run a request for help up the flagpole. 

 

Edited July 14, 2017 by hagoth7

[flameburns623]

On 7/11/2017 at 3:35 AM, hagoth7 said:

"You lift me and I'll lift thee and we'll ascend together." (Whittier's commentary after attending a Millerite camp meeting.)

"Do unto others..."

 

Q: Do you know/love someone who regularly struggles with debilitating mental/emotional challenges, but where you aren't (yet) equipped to help them (or yourself) heal and move forward? 

Had a lengthy discussion with someone tonight, on the topic of mental/emotional health and similar struggles that impede relationships, bringing to mind Elder Holland's talk "Like a Broken Vessel", and his book "Broken Things to Mend." The discussion is also an outgrowth of a troubling/snowballing concern mentioned from the pulpit earlier this year by a pastor/friend.

Reminds me of the elderly couple in the ward/branch that my missionary companion and I rented a room from in Denmark. Decades before that, during World War 2, the husband had served in the resistance in his occupied country against the Nazis, and was captured. He suffered the rest of his life from what they did to him. (Most may be aware of the heroic role Danes played in running an underground railroad to smuggle Jews safely to Nazi-free Sweden.) As I recall, she had been a nurse, and as she explained, when they eventually married, she carefully tended to his pains every night, to help him sleep with something approximating peace. An ailment largely physical, that likely also left wounds of another kind. The man was a national treasure and a serious spiritual giant (a former Jehovah's WItness, who genuinely knew/loved the scriptures.) She was that, and genuinely an angel.

The context of tonight's discussion that I'm slowly getting to, was about an effective form of pyschiatric therapy from a pioneering trailblazer/expert in her field of mental health, that took years for her (and those assisting her) to research, hone, and distill.

The following is largely a paraphrase of the person I spoke with tonight.

The therapy was specifically designed for extremely sensitive souls, for whom traditional therapy typically did more harm than good.  It represented her life's ministry to those who are hurting the most, in a hell to *some* degree of their own making, and who regularly contemplate ending it all. So, the discussion quickly shifted gears to the matter of such therapy being largely inaccessible (both because of cost, and because very few therapists are trained in the direly-needed therapy). Her approach, DBT, has been making a difference for such people for years.

What was refreshing in her approach was that she reminded therapists that using any such imperfect approach, among/between imperfect people, that it was not an issue of *if* such a therapist was gonna make a mistake, but *when.* A frank dismissal of the otherwise-nobly-intentioned "do no harm" hubris. And her required approach of what therapists must do when making such unintentional mistakes is deeply impressive. (Constructive tangent perhaps for another day.)

So the discussion shifted back to its original intent. What if the therapy was more widely/easily accessible? What if lay people in any family or community could have access to at-your-fingertips training and tools that allowed them to minister to a friend or family member? It is said that the best/fastest way to learn/master something is to volunteer to teach it (something I know to often be true). What if people hurting could themselves opt to step forward and become such a healer? A volunteer, tagteam approach to ministry/healing.

Catholics and Shriners and Adventists (i.e. Millerites) are known for their healing work in raising up hospitals. What if some in the LDS community stepped forward into this largely-unattended breach...to minister to those hurting silently among us, and to those who might not even know or care what a Mormon is?

Thoughts? Suggestions?

My wife endured a mental breakdown last year and had to be treated with therapy and medication. This is a very personal topic for me. Thanks dor raising the issue.

[hagoth7]

43 minutes ago, flameburns623 said:

My wife endured a mental breakdown last year and had to be treated with therapy and medication. This is a very personal topic for me. Thanks dor raising the issue.

How is she (and you) doing now?