Does The Gospel Message Help With Personality Disorders

[thesometimesaint]

I find this open discussion really fascinating. A generation ago it wouldn't have happened. Hat's off to the mods for allowing it to continue.

[semisonic]

I think there have been many naive, ignorant posts about this. I suffer from Bipolar disorder. It's caused by complex Brain Chemistry that I fail to fully understand. Basically it's a chemical imbalance. My medication basically keeps my mind from using up all my neurotransmitters and keeps those transmitters in balance. I believe the broken leg analogy is a good one, it is physiological it's just when it involves the brain, the chemistry and physiology is more complex. When off medication, there can be a rare instance where my mind will race and speed up and even see things that aren't there. The only spirit in my body is my own.

[Robert F. Smith]

Robert F. Smith, on 10 April 2013 - 03:22 PM, said:

I stand corrected. However, I have submitted that comment to a couple experts for another opinion.

I actually did not know if you were incorrect or not -- only that there was an alternative perspective. I was not confident in what I read. I am glad you are having some other experts take a look because it is interesting. They are seemingly a very admirable group of people.

Another opinion from a colleague of mine:

Re page 430, in B. Dohrenwend & B. Dohrenwend, "Social and Cultural Influences on Psychopathology," Annual Review of Psychology, 25 (1974), 417-452.

I am, at best, agnostic on this kind of claim, and generally skeptical -- "psychopathology" assessments are highly culture bound and unscientific. The culture behind psychiatric assessment is alien to that of Hutterites. Reliability of categories is low even among those of the same culture as "judges" of mental condition. This "study" is at least 40 years old. And methodology was interviews and indirect reports, so applying categories is highly unreliable (as are the categories themselves).

[SamIam]

Robert F. Smith, on 10 April 2013 - 03:22 PM, said:

Another opinion from a colleague of mine:

Re page 430, in B. Dohrenwend & B. Dohrenwend, "Social and Cultural Influences on Psychopathology," Annual Review of Psychology, 25 (1974), 417-452.

The culture behind psychiatric assessment is alien to that of Hutterites. Reliability of categories is low even among those of the same culture as "judges" of mental condition. This "study" is at least 40 years old. And methodology was interviews and indirect reports, so applying categories is highly unreliable (as are the categories themselves).

Just an anecdotal aside in partial support of this observation…When I returned from my mission in Thailand to the states, I was solicited by the State hospital to assist them with a Thai patient who spoke no English. The doctors explained his diagnosis and listed as one of his symptoms that he heard voices and believed spirits were all about. I have no clue how this was comunicated to them but guessed it was a relative or someone who didn't want him with them. In one of my first meetings with him we chatted and I explained to the doctor that he was complaining that he had difficulty speaking because his tongue was always swollen (the doctor commented ...Oh that's a side effect of the medication we have him on...we'll cut back the dosage..) The next time we spoke and could communicate better, he told me of his issues and that he was a saam laaw driver for his profession. In Thailand these are the people that wait around for people that need a ride and they load them into their 3 wheeled bike and taxi them to their destination.

However, being a saam laaw driver tells you much more than that he peddles a bike, it describes a common mentality of person that lives at the lower end of the intellectual food chain that frequently expands upon Buddhism’s penchant for familial spirits that interact in our lives. They are far more superstitious than the common folks and as a group pretty much hear voices and commune with the dead with wild eyed stares.

When we were done talking, I described to the doctor what we discussed and told him the best thing they could do was send him back to Thailand. He would probably never be perceived as normal here in America but over there he was as common as the three wheeled bike with which he made his living. The doctor dismissed my observations as worthless and could not comprehend any person of his demeanor as normal for any society.

Edited April 11, 2013 by SamIam

[SamIam]

I think that for most there is a difficulty of seeing the benefits of medical treatment and pharmaceutical treatment and then wondering how in the world anybody subscribes to the idea that evil influences may sometimes, (not always) prompt the symptoms they realize when not medicated. Indeed, one should recognize the paradox and seek to understand how this situation can faithfully be explained.

Now before I present this perspective let be understood that no one is advancing the idea that evil is the cause of all issues of mental disorders or illness. However, I consider it equally naïve to ignore the fact that in some instances it is the case that Satan is affecting the influences that cause behaviors classed as mental illness. So respecting both sides of the equation, I would like to address the spiritual side with explanation about the paradox of how in some instances medications and treatment can both favorably and unfavorably alter conditions in such a way as to impact negative spiritual influences.

The first clue is found in 2 Nephi:

2 Nephi 2:28-30

28 And now, my sons, I would that ye should look to the great Mediator, and hearken unto his great commandments; and be faithful unto his words, and choose eternal life, according to the will of his Holy Spirit;

29 And not choose eternal death, according to the will of the flesh and the evil which is therein, which giveth the spirit of the devil power to captivate, to bring you down to hell, that he may reign over you in his own kingdom.

30 I have spoken these few words unto you all, my sons, in the last days of my probation; and I have chosen the good part, according to the words of the prophet. And I have none other object save it be the everlasting welfare of your souls. Amen.

Verse 29 is the key and the others added for context. What Lehi is expounding on here is that the flesh in and of itself has tendencies that favor Satan’s influences. When he describes “the flesh and the evil which is therein” he is describing a condition independent of evil influence. The flesh has it’s own intrinsic capacity and preference to gravitate to hedonistic tendencies or states of superiority, comfort, ease etc.

The real key though is the phrase “which giveth the spirit of the devil power to captivate”. Thus we learn that Satan’s power is limited to what he can garner through the desires of the flesh. This is the primary tool that favors his efforts, the natural tendencies and functions of the body to prefer conditions that are not conducive to righteousness unless overcome.

Looking a bit further to Galatians we have another reference to the flesh with a listing of behaviors that are sourced from it.

Galatians 5:16-17, 19-21

16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

There are few mental conditions that can’t somehow be described with variations upon the themes of this list of conditions. The point is these are natural outpourings and desires of the flesh and they are exploited to Satan’s benefit if for whatever reason they are not managed properly.

So to medications and such… If any substance alters, chemically or behaviorally the natural tendencies by which Satan is able to influence the body it is also going to alter his capacity to influence that individual in many cases - Alter the conditions of the flesh and you alter how Satan can interact with it. Further, that we not be naïve, we have to acknowledge that there are many cases that alter the tendencies of the flesh in such a way as to favor Satan’s influence. This could potentially be attributed to the rise in suicide attempts for those on certain anti-depressants, anti-convulsants and other drugs as well. Still, there are many cases that save for the medical interventions would never see the improvements that benefit those patients.

Just a thought…

Edited April 11, 2013 by SamIam

[thesometimesaint]

Samlam:

Western medicine is science based. It can not by definition posit any God(s), Devils, or any Supernatural being or force as a cause of illness or disease.

[SamIam]

Samlam:

Western medicine is science based. It can not by definition posit any God(s), Devils, or any Supernatural being or force as a cause of illness or disease.

Truth be told allopathic medicine has little regard for cause in any form.

But you and I need not be constrained by such limitations.

Edited April 11, 2013 by SamIam

[wenglund]

Any drug that can't pass placebo rates shouldn't be on the market.

That's both debatable and beside the point.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[CASteinman]

I want to say -- that I greatly appreciate everyone's replies to this topic. This weekend I am going to read them over very carefully.

[wenglund]

I think there have been many naive, ignorant posts about this. I suffer from Bipolar disorder. It's caused by complex Brain Chemistry that I fail to fully understand. Basically it's a chemical imbalance. My medication basically keeps my mind from using up all my neurotransmitters and keeps those transmitters in balance. I believe the broken leg analogy is a good one, it is physiological it's just when it involves the brain, the chemistry and physiology is more complex. When off medication, there can be a rare instance where my mind will race and speed up and even see things that aren't there. The only spirit in my body is my own.

It is a big mistake to assume that since, in your particular case and psychological disorder, it was determined to be strictly or predominately a bio-chemical imbalance, that the same applies to all psychological disorders or even all cased of "bi-polar."

And, if you think the "broken leg" analogy is good, then stop taking your meds and apply a cast to your head to see if you achieve the same results.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[MormonMason]

As I said, SSRIs, Lithium, and other psychotropic drugs must be extremely effective at casting out demons.

I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree. But in my mind, even suggesting to a person with mental illness that they are demon possessed is grossly immoral.

Except, perhaps, when some really are demon-possessed. Having experienced people who were demon-possessed and seeing the night and day change in their personalities after casting their demons out, I know better. But, I would say that in many cases that some would be quick to state that they are cases of demon possession it just is mental illness from chemical imbalances and not demon possession. Each one of these situations has to be taken on a case-by-case basis. In genuine cases of demon possession the feelings in the air around and radiating from the person are unmistakable. In my opinion, Satan can just as easily manipulate someone's biochemistry and set it out of balance to accomplish his ends without actually taking full possession of one's physical body. In situations like that medicines can help mask the symptoms but not eliminate the cause. In yet other cases, no medicine at all will help some of these situations. In these cases only a blessing and/or direct intervention in casting them out works. I could tell true stories about some of this stuff that could make your hair stand on end. No one ever will convince me that Satan does not exist. I know better.

[TAO]

The gospel can probably help with some cases. If your a bishop/SP, pray about it and get an answer to what your supposed to do I guess. =)

[TAO]

thesometimessaint, sometimes what you need to actually get a positive effect... IS a placebo ;-).

[semisonic]

It is a big mistake to assume that since, in your particular case and psychological disorder, it was determined to be strictly or predominately a bio-chemical imbalance, that the same applies to all psychological disorders or even all cased of "bi-polar."

And, if you think the "broken leg" analogy is good, then stop taking your meds and apply a cast to your head to see if you achieve the same results.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

You kind of show your "experience" with this disorder when you suggest someone go off their medication. I can tell you what any doctor/psychiatrist would say about that...

[thesometimesaint]

Truth be told allopathic medicine has little regard for cause in any form.

But you and I need not be constrained by such limitations.

From Wiki:

Allopathic medicine is an expression commonly used by homeopaths and proponents of other forms of alternative medicine to refer to mainstream medical use of pharmacologically active agents or physical interventions to treat or suppress symptoms or pathophysiologic processes of diseases or conditions.^[1] The expression was coined in 1810 by the creator of homeopathy, Samuel Hahnemann (1755–1843). Never accepted as a mainstream scientific term, it was adopted by alternative medicine advocates to refer pejoratively to mainstream medicine.^[2] In such circles, the expression "allopathic medicine" is still used to refer to "the broad category of medical practice that is sometimes called Western medicine, biomedicine, evidence-based medicine, or modern medicine".^[3]

^{Actually us in the reality based world do need such limitations to avoid flights of fancy.}

Edited April 12, 2013 by thesometimesaint

[ERMD]

The gospel of Christ is about the only thing that can offer hope to those with personality disorders. Of all the psychiatric conditions, they are among the most difficult to treat.

[thesometimesaint]

That's both debatable and beside the point.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

It's not debatable. That is how safe and effective standards are met.

[thesometimesaint]

Except, perhaps, when some really are demon-possessed. Having experienced people who were demon-possessed and seeing the night and day change in their personalities after casting their demons out, I know better. But, I would say that in many cases that some would be quick to state that they are cases of demon possession it just is mental illness from chemical imbalances and not demon possession. Each one of these situations has to be taken on a case-by-case basis. In genuine cases of demon possession the feelings in the air around and radiating from the person are unmistakable. In my opinion, Satan can just as easily manipulate someone's biochemistry and set it out of balance to accomplish his ends without actually taking full possession of one's physical body. In situations like that medicines can help mask the symptoms but not eliminate the cause. In yet other cases, no medicine at all will help some of these situations. In these cases only a blessing and/or direct intervention in casting them out works. I could tell true stories about some of this stuff that could make your hair stand on end. No one ever will convince me that Satan does not exist. I know better.

Whatever Satan's power is he doesn't have the power to change the physical universe. Including the one between our ears.

Edited April 12, 2013 by thesometimesaint

[thesometimesaint]

thesometimessaint, sometimes what you need to actually get a positive effect... IS a placebo ;-).

There is no denying the placebo effect.

[SamIam]

Except, perhaps, when some really are demon-possessed. Having experienced people who were demon-possessed and seeing the night and day change in their personalities after casting their demons out, I know better. But, I would say that in many cases that some would be quick to state that they are cases of demon possession it just is mental illness from chemical imbalances and not demon possession. Each one of these situations has to be taken on a case-by-case basis. In genuine cases of demon possession the feelings in the air around and radiating from the person are unmistakable. In my opinion, Satan can just as easily manipulate someone's biochemistry and set it out of balance to accomplish his ends without actually taking full possession of one's physical body. In situations like that medicines can help mask the symptoms but not eliminate the cause. In yet other cases, no medicine at all will help some of these situations. In these cases only a blessing and/or direct intervention in casting them out works. I could tell true stories about some of this stuff that could make your hair stand on end. No one ever will convince me that Satan does not exist. I know better.

Our experiences sound similar in this type of scenario. I believe that there are rules to out and out possession as in the cases I have noted it was proceeded by welcoming behaviors. I have noted that the priesthood always has worked to remedy the immediate situation but if repentance or other changes were not forthcoming then re-possession was a possibility.

I wonder if generally the influences that lead to biochemistry problems most generally are limited to encouraging bad health choices over sufficient period of time so as to slowly bind individuals to those influences.

I also have noted that sometimes they occur in our particular lives as a means of opportunity to educate a priesthood holder how to provide and protect in spiritual fashion just as we do in temporal fashion.

I have contemplated the Knight family situation, often called the first miracle in the church, where the son (Joseph Knight ??) was overtaken simply on the principle that he didn't follow through on a commitment to pray in their meeting. I have thought that perhaps this was really more of a situation to teach Joseph about such matters and introduce him to the principles of priesthood authority.

[EllenMaksoud]

Whatever Satan's power is he doesn't have the power to change the physical universe. Including the one between our ears.

Generally, I don't acknowledge satan at all. I never capitalize his name even though grammar rules require it. I do my best not to attract his attention, but his ways are so inscrutable to me that I leave dealing with him to Heavenly Father. I wouldn't even know what to pray if I knew I was being attacked. I do get some profoundly depressive episodes but have learned ways to get myself out of trouble. I think that there is enough probable causation without the influence of satan.

[thesometimesaint]

Generally, I don't acknowledge satan at all. I never capitalize his name even though grammar rules require it. I do my best not to attract his attention, but his ways are so inscrutable to me that I leave dealing with him to Heavenly Father. I wouldn't even know what to pray if I knew I was being attacked. I do get some profoundly depressive episodes but have learned ways to get myself out of trouble. I think that there is enough probable causation without the influence of satan.

One of advantages of having a physical body is that God and we can manipulate the physical universe. Satan will never have a physical body. Satan has a lot of power. But it resides only in his ability to tempt us to sin. While its not a democracy I find it a useful analogy. God always votes for us. Satan always votes against us. We break the tie.

[EllenMaksoud]

One of advantages of having a physical body is that God and we can manipulate the physical universe. Satan will never have a physical body. Satan has a lot of power. But it resides only in his ability to tempt us to sin. While its not a democracy I find it a useful analogy. God always votes for us. Satan always votes against us. We break the tie.

Of note is the power of unwholesome influences to damage us in ways I do not understand. It all started with my not wishing to obey D&C 89 when it comes to coffee and very occasional alchohol. Heavenly Father took those desires from me in a way that I knew he was there and wanted me to obey, not as a slave, but as an errant child being protected by a loving father. Then later came choices in music. No more Lady Gaga, and ZZ Top and they were replaced by the likes of EFY and Jenny Phillips. Recently, my reading choices have changed in a way that it is unavoidable to know that Heavenly Father did it. Unwholesome influences don't always come by disobedience. Sometimes they come because you never had anyone in your life that cared. It sometimes frightens me when I run into priesthood holders that assume that trouble comes because of willful disobedience.

[thesometimesaint]

Of note is the power of unwholesome influences to damage us in ways I do not understand. It all started with my not wishing to obey D&C 89 when it comes to coffee and very occasional alchohol. Heavenly Father took those desires from me in a way that I knew he was there and wanted me to obey, not as a slave, but as an errant child being protected by a loving father. Then later came choices in music. No more Lady Gaga, and ZZ Top and they were replaced by the likes of EFY and Jenny Phillips. Recently, my reading choices have changed in a way that it is unavoidable to know that Heavenly Father did it. Unwholesome influences don't always come by disobedience. Sometimes they come because you never had anyone in your life that cared. It sometimes frightens me when I run into priesthood holders that assume that trouble comes because of willful disobedience.

After all these years I still like the taste of alcohol, but for obvious reasons don't imbibe. I'll probably have that with me for the rest of my life.

I'm a baby boomer. New Age is my preferred style now. But I have learned over the years to like a variety of music styles, including Light Opera, and some Classic Opera. Haven't been able to learn to like Classic Country though. Rap and Hip Hop is on a song by song basis, but overall are not my cup of tea(That is if I drank tea. .

We ALL have troubles, but troubles don't define whom we are. Our response to them does.

[EllenMaksoud]

After all these years I still like the taste of alcohol, but for obvious reasons don't imbibe. I'll probably have that with me for the rest of my life.

I'm a baby boomer. New Age is my preferred style now. But I have learned over the years to like a variety of music styles, including Light Opera, and some Classic Opera. Haven't been able to learn to like Classic Country though. Rap and Hip Hop is on a song by song basis, but overall are not my cup of tea(That is if I drank tea. .

We ALL have troubles, but troubles don't define whom we are. Our response to them does.

Whoa ! I draw the line at Country! Songs where they say things like," She left me and took my Dawg, ho hum ho hum. She was a mean woman, even took the dawg food", make me have panic attacks!

Though I do make an exception at "When The Thunder Rolls".

Edited April 12, 2013 by EllenMaksoud