Does The Gospel Message Help With Personality Disorders

[CASteinman]

Through my life, I have had the opportunity to interact with people who have a kind of mental illness called "Personality Disorder". These are intractable conditions. I believe that they are generally considered incurable though not necessarily totally untreatable. Sometimes Personality Disorders grow out of pre-existing conditions (ADHD for example). Sometimes Personality Disorders seem to be upon people from a very early age -- so that it is impossible to know if the person wasn't actually born that way.

Furthermore, by their nature, people with Personality Disorders will usually not accept that there is anything wrong with them. In some types of Personality Disorder (not all), it is even part of their disorder and a "necessary" defense mechanism to utterly reject that idea and not consider it. In some cases, it never arises to failure to consider and rejection because it is simply "unheard".

And various types of personality disorders are worse to be around than others. Sociopaths are bad. Borderline can be horrific. Narcissists can also be just awful.

Sometimes, thinking and reading about satan, it seems to me like he is the embodiment of Personality Disorder. I don't mean by that to say that people with Personality Disorders are satanic or possessed. Truth is -- I don't know and my ignorance is so deep that I would not even speculate either way. What I am really trying to point out here though, is just how difficult people with Personality Disorders can be -- and how evil they can act sometimes.

I am not asking for abstract "the Gospel will heal All things" kinds of responses. Personality Disorders are just so hard and sometimes so bad that this sort of answer is possibly wrong and even if it is right, is way way too shallow for my purposes.

These are such serious problems and they challenge things I believe about faith and repentance and the atonement and healing.

• What can the Gospel do for people with Personality Disorders?
  
  
• Does anyone here have experiences where they have seen someone with a serious Personality Disorder problem, become improved under Gospel influence?
  

These are issues and concerns I have had ever since I first read about and encountered people with these problems, decades ago, so I thought I would ask here.

Thanks!

ETA: Please remember -- these people may be suffering but they do not know that they are the cause. Also, they may not be suffering -- the people around them are probably suffering as much or more.

Also remember: These people WILL NOT SEEK HELP.

Edited April 9, 2013 by CASteinman

[KevinG]

A few things central to the Gospel have helped me and those I love with personality disorders. We are celestial creatures having a human experience. Understanding the difference between our perfect spirits and mortal bodies helped me deal with the fact that I have weaknesses that are not caused by sin and that getting help and treatment is no shame but a sign of strength. I have fought addictions and knowing that my family is the greatest eternal treasure short of exaltation has given me strength and motivation to do what is right and get help and give up my sins.

I recently had a discussion with my daughters fiance who suffers from the whole alphabet soup of ADD, OCD, Tourets, etc. and told him that I didn't care any more that he had those conditions than I would if he needed glasses or walked with a limp. He is a righteous and kind man who manages his conditions very well and works to be the best he can for my daughter who he plans to wed. Without my understanding of the priesthood and its role I'm not sure I could have reached that conclusion as easily as I do today.

Sometimes blessings don't heal us now - but they can give us the strength to bear our burdens and weaknesses. I know there is a large chance that these conditions will challenge their family into future generations- but the faith and love they both show towards each other - not expecting perfection in this life - but being willing to work towards promised eternal perfection, that is something I pray all my children and their children will understand half as well by the end of mortality as these two understand now before they are even sealed.

Edited April 9, 2013 by KevinG

[wenglund]

Depending upon the kind of personality disorder and the degree to which a person is inflicted, the gospel may have some positive impact, though, as with most any non-spiritual problem, it is probably wise to look to secular experts for the best help.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[cdowis]

It is a chronic medical condition. Of course the church can help with medical conditions, but it is best to seek the help of a professional.

Edited April 9, 2013 by cdowis

[SamIam]

Through my life, I have had the opportunity to interact with people who have a kind of mental illness called "Personality Disorder".

And various types of personality disorders are worse to be around than others. Sociopaths are bad. Borderline can be horrific. Narcissists can also be just awful.

Sometimes, thinking and reading about satan, it seems to me like he is the embodiment of Personality Disorder. I don't mean by that to say that people with Personality Disorders are satanic or possessed. Truth is -- I don't know and my ignorance is so deep that I would not even speculate either way. What I am really trying to point out here though, is just how difficult people with Personality Disorders can be -- and how evil they can act sometimes.

Not that this really addresses all aspects of your OP, but you may find this paper, Written by an LDS psychologist of some interest. I have the actual document but found this link which is a cut and paste of the paper: Understanding Spiritual Evil in the Context of Psychotherapy

Edited April 9, 2013 by SamIam

[sethpayne]

• What can the Gospel do for people with Personality Disorders?
  
• Does anyone here have experiences where they have seen someone with a serious Personality Disorder problem, become improved under Gospel influence?
  

I think the most important thing the Gospel can do for people who struggle with these disorders is provide a loving community environment where the person can serve and be served. Community/family can provide spiritual and emotional support to a person suffering with mental health issues.

I have seen a couple of examples of people getting better with the help of the Church and the Gospel. HOWEVER -- and this is a big however -- progress was only made when these people obtained professional medical help. Meds and/or counseling. Just like the Gospel alone can't cure cancer, it can't cure a mental illness. However, just as with cancer, the Gospel can help bring comfort and spiritual perspectives during the treatment of a difficult disease.

Seth

[sethpayne]

Not that this really addresses all aspects of your OP, but you may find this paper, Written by an LDS psychologist of some interest. I have the actual document but found this link which is a cut and paste of the paper: Understanding Spiritual Evil in the Context of Psychotherapy

I'm sorry, but anyone who claims that evil spirits are responsible for mental illness is an idiot. For crying out loud this man is supposed to be a medical professional! If MDs took his advice they would whip out their consecrated oil instead of antibiotics when treating an infection. If he wants to personally believe that demons are impacting his patients then fine. I wouldn't send anyone his way. Mental health is a medical issue. Mental health problems are not caused by demons.

I'm not saying that people shouldn't receive blessings etc... when they experience mental health problems. They should. But to even entertain the thought that these problems are demonic is incredibly harmful. "No Mr. Jones, there isn't a chemical imbalance in your brain causing your clinical depression. It's actually a demon." I suppose if that is true, then SSRIs are very good at casting out demons.

[Freedom]

Disorders cannot be cured anymore than blindness can be cured. Well, miracles do occur from time to time, but generally we are what we are. I find solace in the gospel and the spirit prompts me and strengthens me to deal with personal challenges. It gives me the strength to develop effective coping mechanisms. But the gospel is more than testimony. There are many programs available to help people with a whole variety of disabilities so the gospel message is about hope, but it is also about practical courses and support groups. I know some who are too physically sick to attend church, and I know some who are too mentally disturbed to attend church. Church is a bad place to be if you are highly allergic to perfumes, and it is also a bad place to be if you are a sociopath. Nevertheless, the gospel is there to those with physical as well as mental impediments.

[CASteinman]

I think the most important thing the Gospel can do for people who struggle with these disorders is provide a loving community environment where the person can serve and be served. Community/family can provide spiritual and emotional support to a person suffering with mental health issues.

Actually, I would think this would be more important to the spouse, children and others who must deal with the individual with PD.

I have seen a couple of examples of people getting better with the help of the Church and the Gospel. HOWEVER -- and this is a big however -- progress was only made when these people obtained professional medical help. Meds and/or counseling. Just like the Gospel alone can't cure cancer, it can't cure a mental illness. However, just as with cancer, the Gospel can help bring comfort and spiritual perspectives during the treatment of a difficult disease.

One of the problems is that these people almost never seek help. If the problem has not resulted in multiple significant emotional events such that they become seriously unhappy and notice it and wonder what is wrong so that they seek some sort of professional help -- they never will. They just do not see it.

[CASteinman]

I'm sorry, but anyone who claims that evil spirits are responsible for mental illness is an idiot.

This is simply wrong. It is also not useful.

I would recommend, if you get the chance, reading a book called "People of the Lie". If you are young you will not recognize the author of this book but he is a recognized, successful, intelligent psychiatrist.

This is his more famous book that some here might recognize:

http://davesandel.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/13.jpg

Edited April 9, 2013 by CASteinman

[sethpayne]

This is simply wrong. It is also not useful.

As I said, SSRIs, Lithium, and other psychotropic drugs must be extremely effective at casting out demons.

I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree. But in my mind, even suggesting to a person with mental illness that they are demon possessed is grossly immoral.

[sethpayne]

Actually, I would think this would be more important to the spouse, children and others who must deal with the individual with PD.

I agree and think it is important for everyone. Mental illness impacts the whole family.

One of the problems is that these people almost never seek help. If the problem has not resulted in multiple significant emotional events such that they become seriously unhappy and notice it and wonder what is wrong so that they seek some sort of professional help -- they never will. They just do not see it.

Sadly, this is very true.

I think this is another area where the Gospel and Church can help. Bishops can counsel folks to seek professional care.

[CASteinman]

As I said, SSRIs, Lithium, and other psychotropic drugs must be extremely effective at casting out demons.

I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree. But in my mind, even suggesting to a person with mental illness that they are demon possessed is grossly immoral.

What was wrong was your claim that people who believe in this are idiots.

[sethpayne]

I would recommend, if you get the chance, reading a book called "People of the Lie". If you are young you will not recognize the author of this book but he is a recognized, successful, intelligent psychiatrist.

This is his more famous book that some here might recognize:

http://davesandel.fi.../2011/08/13.jpg

Thanks for the recommendation. Looks very interesting.

[sethpayne]

What was wrong was your claim that people who believe in this are idiots.

Strong language to be sure. Let me amend it.

Any trained psychologist or psychiatrist who believes that mental illness should probably have their license revoked. Can you imagine the potential damage of even hinting to someone that their disease is the result of demons???? If a psychiatrist believes that their patient is possessed how can they possible provide adequate medical treatment? Lots of these folks are on the edge as it is. They need help to see their disease for what it is ... a disease that requires medical treatment.

What would happen to an MD who prescribed priesthood blessings for her patients? I don't think they would practice medicine for very long...

Anyway, this is totally off topic. Sorry for the derail.

[Tacenda]

Thank goodness we have the knowledge we have now of mental illness and the proper meds to help. Can anyone imagine how many would be in mental institutions, we'd be overrun with them. And Urroner brought up something on another thread that was so interesting to me. My brother has suffered with drug, alcohol & tobacco addiction in his youth and his adult life, when Urroner said someone he knew heard voices or noise in their head, the only thing that calmed them was when he smoked pot and when he was finally put on the right meds it took care of the problem, this made me think my brother may have some problems and needs to be on medication. When he was younger he had learning disabilities that may have contributed.

This is where the statement "walk in their shoes" really fits!

ETA: To keep on topic, my brother's bishop is phenomenal and has tried to help him. He was recently let out of jail for DUI, when I talked with him I told him he needed to try the LDS version of the 12 Step Program. He has yet to try it. His bishop is waiting and willing to help him, it's all up to him. But maybe what he needs to do is get a full check up to see if he should be on meds.

Edited April 9, 2013 by Tacenda

[thesometimesaint]

Depending upon the kind of personality disorder and the degree to which a person is inflicted, the gospel may have some positive impact, though, as with most any non-spiritual problem, it is probably wise to look to secular experts for the best help.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Agreed, but I must add that the Church does support the mental health professions. Indeed has a whole professional wing in LDS Social Services, and if needed can refer a person to a professional not directly in LDS Social Services for help.

[wenglund]

But in my mind, even suggesting to a person with mental illness that they are demon possessed is grossly immoral.

Speaking of personality disorders, let's not get hysterical or consider things in such black/white terms.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[SamIam]

Can you imagine the potential damage of even hinting to someone that their disease is the result of demons????

What would happen to an MD who prescribed priesthood blessings for her patients? I don't think they would practice medicine for very long...

Perhaps you are being facetious in prescribing priesthood blessings to deal with demons but if not it is clear that you do not put the same level of credence in scripture and prophetic statement as you do the philosophies of men. Perhaps this counsel given to some early missionaries is of interest to you.

D & C 24:13-14

13 Require not miracles, except I shall command you, except casting out devils, healing the sick, and against poisonous serpents, and against deadly poisons;

14 And these things ye shall not do, except it be required of you by them who desire it, that the scriptures might be fulfilled; for ye shall do according to that which is written.

Thus no practitioner would misunderstand the appropriate use of the power of God as a means of fulfilling the demands of his livelihood as you have suggested. There are rules for exercising the powers of heaven.

The paper in the link I provided list multiple quotes by Brigham Young and others that speak to illness and demons.

When you call them idiots it sets very uncomfortably with my perceptions of any capacity to educate one who appears so well versed as to so easily elevate his perceptions of truth and error above those of our leaders.

The New Testament, if it is to be accepted as scripture, should be adequate to at least garner the admission that there are situations involving demonic possession that seem to match symptoms and behaviors that psychologists would recognize as mental illness today. That should at least garner a humble sense of perhaps there are things we are not adequately aware of that merit more inquiry than condemnation. Did Christ ever respond with the admonishment to take two aspirin and call me in the morning when approached by those claiming demons afflicted them?

Nonetheless, perhaps you were simply hasty and had failed to realize that your debate is not with me or others who may find cause to accept these contributions of religious origin as perhaps meritorious. Instead your debate is with those who made the statements, inspired the scripture, and healed those so possessed and with those who, believing, may have some experience of their own in such matters.

[Jersey Girl]

I'm sorry, but anyone who claims that evil spirits are responsible for mental illness is an idiot. For crying out loud this man is supposed to be a medical professional! If MDs took his advice they would whip out their consecrated oil instead of antibiotics when treating an infection. If he wants to personally believe that demons are impacting his patients then fine. I wouldn't send anyone his way. Mental health is a medical issue. Mental health problems are not caused by demons.

I'm not saying that people shouldn't receive blessings etc... when they experience mental health problems. They should. But to even entertain the thought that these problems are demonic is incredibly harmful. "No Mr. Jones, there isn't a chemical imbalance in your brain causing your clinical depression. It's actually a demon." I suppose if that is true, then SSRIs are very good at casting out demons.

I think that what we see described in the Bible and other scriptures as "demons" are actually instances of mental illness, described as the ancients understood them to be in their own time.

[Jersey Girl]

.

Also remember: These people WILL NOT SEEK HELP.

What sort of help are you referring to? If they refuse to seek help, what leads you to believe they would be open to the LDS Gospel. FYI: I am not LDS, just trying to think with you.

[CV75]

What can the Gospel do for people with Personality Disorders?

Does anyone here have experiences where they have seen someone with a serious Personality Disorder problem, become improved under Gospel influence?

Can you reframe your question more precisely in layman's terms? I take it you are not a mental health professional, so what do you mean exactly by personality disorder (there are many kinds)? What are the specific behaviors (regardless of the cause) that you are talking about that affect spirituality?

[CASteinman]

What sort of help are you referring to? If they refuse to seek help, what leads you to believe they would be open to the LDS Gospel. FYI: I am not LDS, just trying to think with you.

That they would not normally seek help does not mean that they would not be in the Church -- and maybe even attend Church fairly regularly. My question is really along the lines of: If you have seen someone with these issues, has the Gospel helped them? This would probably be answered by family members and good friends(?) who observed how the Gospel may have somehow helped them to see their problems and helped them to repent. This might include them finally seeking help after a long while.

However, it does NOT include something like this: "The Gospel has counselors who can talk to them and help them get on a better path".

Perhaps I should have asked this question: Has the Gospel ever helped these people see their problems and seek help? Or if it did not do that, did it at least help them overcome any interpersonal bad habits? (And how did that happen?)

Edited April 10, 2013 by CASteinman

[Jersey Girl]

That they would not normally seek help does not mean that they would not be in the Church -- and maybe even attend Church fairly regularly. My question is really along the lines of: If you have seen someone with these issues, has the Gospel helped them? This would probably be answered by family members and good friends(?) who observed how the Gospel may have somehow helped them to see their problems and helped them to repent. This might include them finally seeking help after a long while.

However, it does NOT include something like this: "The Gospel has counselors who can talk to them and help them get on a better path".

Perhaps I should have asked this question: Has the Gospel ever helped these people see their problems and seek help? Or if it did not do that, did it at least help them overcome any interpersonal bad habits? (And how did that happen?)

Okay, I understand better what you're asking now. I am not a mental health professional, but here goes. I do think that some of the personality disorders you mentioned can be managed, I just don't know for how long a period of time that can last. When you speak in terms of sociopathy/psychopathy (same thing) you're talking about a person without conscience, who lacks empathy and I believe this goes back to very early childhood regarding attachment and bonding. That is to say, I think there has to be some sort of motivation to manage one's behavior and without empathy, I cannot think of what could possibly motivate them.

[CASteinman]

Can you reframe your question more precisely in layman's terms? I take it you are not a mental health professional, so what do you mean exactly by personality disorder (there are many kinds)? What are the specific behaviors (regardless of the cause) that you are talking about that affect spirituality?

Personality Disorder is a bit hard to describe. And if you see the names of these disorders, relying on those names will mislead you as to what you are actually talking about because they are either not clear or we have come to associate those terms with a rather different set of behaviors. But here are some of the names of those that I consider to be sort of the most aggressively horrible to others: Borderline, Narcissistic, Anti-Social. They all fit into one "Cluster" of types. They are the ones I am most concerned about.

You can read more here in increasing detail:

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/personality-disorders/DS00562

http://www.mentalhealthamerica.net/go/information/get-info/personality-disorders

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/hide-and-seek/201205/the-10-personality-disorders

and...

Notice this comment: "The entire exercise has forced psychiatrists to confront one of the field’s most elementary, yet still unresolved, questions: What, exactly, is a personality problem?" in the following article: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/27/health/clearing-the-fog-around-personality-disorders.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0