Does The Gospel Message Help With Personality Disorders

[Maidservant]

I think the addiction recovery classes offer a good approach to applyig the atonement to one's problems. I thoguht the Ensign article I linked was a helpful way for drawing people into the light. I think it is helpful to not only consider what the "types of people" need in general (which is merely a starting point) but their individual needs. As I meniotned earlier, discernment and inspiration are very helpful in helping others.

You know, I participated for a few years in the churches addiction recovery meetings and read and re-read that book and it was a very important passage in my life and it did help, not in terms of removing my affliction but in giving me some additional tools with which to handle the afflictions on a daily basis. The funny thing is that I really could never get past step one (12-step programs) much less anything like step 4, so I think the important thing about this opportunity to me was the step I took to end my isolation and meet with others who suffered both like me, worse than me--an opportunity to serve and be served by broken people and the chance I took to admit how broken I was, in front of other people, and to receive their acceptance--which a person like me is pretty certain they will never get, so it's very healing to find out one is wrong on at least that much .

So, are you saying that Job gave Satan all that power over his family, substance, and himself? Please explain how a perfect man gave Satan all that power over himself.

I think we would need to have a discussion (another thread) about the nature of the book of Job before I would personally feel comfortable applying it to real, daily life in any way shape or form. I take it as a fictional account that represents the thinking of the person(s) who created the book (their thinking about God/Satan/life, etc), and I think it's an invaluable book about meeting challenges, but I don't know that I'd take an exact correspondence or reference from it as to how the 'mechanical' universe works. I could be very wrong, of course, about my idea of the nature of the book of Job, but I just say that, again, that's a whole discussion in and of itself before we start taking advice from it on mental health issues and relationship-to-Satan issues, as we now have come to understand these things in our time and day. People are on different, alternative pages when it comes to the applicability of the book of Job to reality.

[Nathair/|\]

I have not read the entire thread due to time constraints (I'm through page 2), so I may have more to say when I finish later today.

I am a person who lives every single minute of every single day with what is called mental illnesses and personality disorders. I have improved over the decades of my lifetime, but if I had to say yes or no, I would say that 'no' the gospel has not helped me nor cured me. The big caveat would be that the gospel helps me in all parts of my life, but I have to work if I want money, not just attend church 7 days a week, right? Same with my mental illnesses. I have to do things about that specifically, and 'the gospel' isn't going to cut it, per se.

In the beginning of my journey, what I believed about the gospel was VERY damaging to me. I do believe that my mental illnesses have been one of the great grains of sands that have permitted me to get pearls from my relationship with God, because I have had to re-learn so many things about life and the gospel that at first glance seemed to be at odds to what I had once understood the gospel to be, but I personally think God wanted my beliefs to be broken down so he could show me new things and He has been with me every step of the way even when I couldn't even be there for myself.

I have said to my mom, "Do you know what it is like to do your visiting teaching when there are 3000 demons scratching and screaming around inside of you?"

Do you know what it is like to attempt to be a faithful, good person when this is your daily experience?

And yet I have attempted it.

I once believed that it was because I was a BAD person and that was MAKING WRONG CHOICES (the gospel--right?) that had led me to these hells.

I did not even know there were pills for things like that. And no one could tell me that. They could only tell me to REPENT.

I hurt a lot of people, my children, my husband, my self. I can't take those times back. I can only praise God for leading me thus far to the point where I'm not such a weapon of mass destruction (sometimes I still wonder).

In any case, there is so much that can be said, but there is a bit.

And I want to say that as far as I'm concerned, and I can only speak for myself and my personal experience, that the source of my experience is NOT SPIRITUAL (including NOT actual demons)--but rather due to structural (cellular) problems AND lack of nutrition (cellular starvation). My management is almost 100 percent nutrition based. Nothing else touches it--pills helped a little--but PRAYER NEVER DID (directly), CHOOSING NEVER DID, the HOLY GHOST NEVER DID, COUNSELING NEVER DID, SELF-HELP BOOKS AND PHILOSOPHY NEVER DID--but nutrition ALWAYS does. That's me. I can say that now. Before I had this level of awareness, I couldn't have said that, because I just experienced stuff directly and it did feel demonic and a lot of other things that have no names. But if I had arrived at this level of awareness, management, healing (not cure) and still continued to perceive this as demonic, I would say so and offer my two cents on how to deal with demons one-on-one. But that hasn't been my experience, so I can only say what it has been.

You said it better than I possibly could. I just want to add that you aren't alone. I've been there and I agree with you completely. Edited April 16, 2013 by Nathair

[CASteinman]

And I want to say that as far as I'm concerned, and I can only speak for myself and my personal experience, that the source of my experience is NOT SPIRITUAL (including NOT actual demons)--but rather due to structural (cellular) problems AND lack of nutrition (cellular starvation). My management is almost 100 percent nutrition based. Nothing else touches it--pills helped a little--but PRAYER NEVER DID (directly), CHOOSING NEVER DID, the HOLY GHOST NEVER DID, COUNSELING NEVER DID, SELF-HELP BOOKS AND PHILOSOPHY NEVER DID--but nutrition ALWAYS does. That's me. I can say that now. Before I had this level of awareness, I couldn't have said that, because I just experienced stuff directly and it did feel demonic and a lot of other things that have no names. But if I had arrived at this level of awareness, management, healing (not cure) and still continued to perceive this as demonic, I would say so and offer my two cents on how to deal with demons one-on-one. But that hasn't been my experience, so I can only say what it has been.

Thank you for this. Interesting. Thought provoking.

I do not doubt that it is necessary to be sure that our physical natures -- our bodies, organs, systems and cells -- must be correctly satisfied as to what is needed before any spiritual benefit can accrue.

I can understand how choosing does not help schizophrenia. But how would it not help with personality disorders?

[Maidservant]

I can understand how choosing does not help schizophrenia. But how would it not help with personality disorders?

Well, it's interesting that you select this and I think this is a good point. My journey on "choosing" has been its own little (big) journey just on that!

Of course, as human beings 'choosing' is integral to who we are, so to say that choosing has absolutely nothing to do with our diseases of any kind just can't be supported.

I am not an expert on diagnosed personality disorders, so I suppose there is a limit to my comment on them. But here is what I mean and what happened to me.

I will be specific.

One of the among many things I experienced in the past was rage. This was a daily experience.

To say that I chose to have rage is simply not the case. Every morning I would wake up in deep dread, deep self-hatred, deep fear, knowing what the day would bring. I knew I was hurting my family and that was the LAST thing I wanted. If you were to ask me what I wanted and what I would choose--I would say emphatically, "I choose not to have rage!" But that choice was not within my power. I did not have control over whether or not I had this experience.

In the beginning, I framed this completely in terms of the gospel and knew that I was going to hell and that I was a bad, wicked, disobedient person who chose to experience and express rage. And I was not willing to repent. That's what I thought was happening. I prayed every day for help for the last time I would live this and express this, and if faith is measured by fervency (I found out it's not), then my faith was in truckloads. But again, one of the side lessons I learned was that fervency does not equal faith.

It was not true that I was choosing this life, these choices, this rage, the expressions of my rage because I was a prisoner of my rage just as much as my family was also a prisoner of it. But I didn't understand that yet.

One of the first realizations that led me toward healing was the awarenes that something was wrong. This seems like a 101, but it took me a few years to get to that point. I realized that 'normal' people simply did not even have this kind of rage on their radar and that what I was dealing with was above and beyond normal human experience and the power to choose. In other words, I was not a 'normal' person choosing to do wicked things. I was a SICK person who did not have certain choices at my hands (in the EXACT same way my husband's cancer was not in his power).

One of the next realizations I had in my journey is that I had to accept my weakness of (not) being able to choose and that I had to prepare for the privilege of and the strength to be able to choose. If I wanted to be able to choose in a given moment to not have or express rage, then I have to make preparation choices over the long term that would lead to that ability (I hoped; oh, I despaired so often). So, yes, choice became important, but in a different way than we might normally think. (And I might add that I realized that my husband's cancer could lead him and us to other choices as well-health choices, for example; and spiritual growth choices, as well; but in the end these choices might or might not ACTUALLY lead to the (mortal) cessation of either his nor mine condition.)

I will make a long story short by simply saying that I learned about and became stronger to use certain mechanisms that allowed me to function in daily life without expressing the rage. This, again, took years. And, really, all I wanted to do was kill myself because I knew I was failing and I knew I was still affecting my family. And I was all alone. I could not talk to anyone about this. I could not get help, or felt that that was true (based mostly on shame, of course). In fact, this post is the longest and most plain I have ever talked about it with anyone, ever (thank goodness for the anonymity of the internet). But I share, because I think this is important and I can't be the only one who has had to live with this. In any case, I would literally sit myself down at the kitchen table and have a decision making session about whether or not to kill myself for the sake of my children, and I would end up choosing to stay because I felt that was a tiny bit better, that there were some good moments I had as a mother and I felt that my children loved me and would, actually, be worse off if I put them through that experience (of my suicide); but it would take me a while to remember all that, I had to think through all that in my head more than once.

So I became stronger to have better external actions, but the rage still existed, it took massive amounts of mental, spiritual, emotional and physical energy in order function on any level--but I learned to do it. Again, it would take too long to detail all that, but I did come to that point.

Meanwhile, I also had a thread of a journey about nutrition (and medication) and I did learn a few things early on and throughout, but just in the last two years, I have encountered some nutritional information and such and it took me a while to get strong enough and organized enough to utilize it, but even just in the last couple of years and the last few months, the existence of these nutritional choices (*wink*) I am making--the rage is just gone. It's not even there. So, yet again, it's not something in the purview of my choosing (in one sense)--because my cells and body chemistry and electricity simply does not manufacture rage anymore. So, there's nothing to be "good" or "wicked" about. There's no longer anything to cope with or that requires "mechanisms" in order to function. It's just not there.

Now, honestly, I get REALLY upset (not rage! ha ha) that if I could only have known at the beginning of my adult life what I know now--then myself and my family could have been spared years of rage and its consequences (and I only mention the rage--there are other things, but I kept it simple for this post). I lay that at Heavenly Father's feet many times, and I tell him that he is the one accountable for that. He is the God, and I am the blind mortal, and I could not have known, but he did, so whose choice is what and where? So, again, it is experiences like that this that bleed over into a lot of what I think about the gospel as a whole and what the scriptures really mean, but in this case thinking about agency and choice--it's a lot different EXPERIENCE than what I think sometimes we are TOLD--or maybe I'm just the one who doesn't get it. So my 'gospel' takeaway for me is not that I am supposed to choose to prove how good I am and get into heaven (because my 'goodness' is really in vitamins and minerals), but that we are here to go through harrowing experiences and become persons of charity by those mountains we have to move, the pearls that form around our grains of sand. So in another sense, I do understand the purpose of my struggles.

But, crap, earth life is hard.

Edited April 17, 2013 by Maidservant

[wenglund]

Now to prove it is you have to do is give up your physical body, and still post to this MB.

That would make sense if my claim was that unbodied spirits were posting to this message board.

It isn't, and so it doesn't.

But, there is no requirement that you get my point even if I have changed your brain chemistry.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[thesometimesaint]

That would make sense if my claim was that unbodied spirits were posting to this message board.

It isn't, and so it doesn't.

But, there is no requirement that you get my point even if I have changed your brain chemistry.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

I don't claim that the unembodied do have an effect on the physical world. Just the opposite. All I'm asking you to do is give first hand proof of your assertion that they do.

[wenglund]

I don't claim that the unembodied do have an effect on the physical world. Just the opposite. All I'm asking you to do is give first hand proof of your assertion that they do.

Flip Wilson.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited April 17, 2013 by wenglund

[CASteinman]

Well, it's interesting that you select this and I think this is a good point. My journey on "choosing" has been its own little (big) journey just on that!

First -- I want to say "Thank you" this is a very useful, helpful post to me. It may get to some of the problems I am concerned about for someone I know. I am sorry and apologize for extending this further -- it may not be something you want to dwell upon but I do have some questions.

One of the among many things I experienced in the past was rage. This was a daily experience.

So this is important to me. Do you know if these rages came about because of personality disorder or was there something else happening?

To say that I chose to have rage is simply not the case. Every morning I would wake up in deep dread, deep self-hatred, deep fear, knowing what the day would bring. I knew I was hurting my family and that was the LAST thing I wanted. If you were to ask me what I wanted and what I would choose--I would say emphatically, "I choose not to have rage!" But that choice was not within my power. I did not have control over whether or not I had this experience.

Let me take a small tangent away from my real interest area and comment. I don't mean to be callous, but I was not saying that you could control how you feel -- that you could choose that. What I mean is that you can choose how you will respond to that feeling.

Now, I might be wrong. Certainly there are handicaps, physical weakness, stokes, epilepsy, whereby people are not able to choose and control how their physical bodies will behave. But I have had some personal experiences that inform my sense of this. Let me give you one example.

For reasons I prefer not to disclose, I had at a fairly early age, learned to separate who I am from how I felt. Now this is not entirely perfect because, who I am will definitely affect how I feel. BUT, I have sort of learned that the reverse is not necessarily true: How I feel is not Who I am. I don't want to go into a lot of detail about this, but simply to say that I have noticed that many people will detect their feelings and decide that those feelings define who they are. This is not even just a few people. I think most people are that way. So, I would say that in that regard, I am abnormal.

And here is an example where this experience has helped me. A few years ago, I had a devastating year. I had four major injuries over the course of a year. On top of that, I was not gainfully employed. So it was easy to feel low and get down on yourself. I discovered something though: Every time I had an accident --72 hours later I would feel depressed and worthless. It was like clockwork. So, when the last accident happened I said, "Let me see if this happens again". And it did.

At that point I was able to say this rather silly thing to myself, but I believed it and it was true: "That depression is not me. It's not real. Its just the injury". Then the depression would come. It would be as strong as ever. I would utterly ignore it and work and play as though it did not exist. I even laughed at it -- because I knew it was not real and it was sort of funny to "feel" something that was not real.

I had to do that just this last year when I injured my arm in a manner so that I could not use it at all, and it still has not recovered completely. When the depression hit, I ignored it like nothing was happening. Because it was not real -- it was not me.

So I found a way to get around the depression. But here is the interesting thing: Even if I still thought it was real, I would still have to choose how I was going to react to it. Fortunately, I have found a way to choose that reaction so it is not very hard or difficult for me. If I thought the depression was real, the struggle to overcome it would be much much harder. BUT -- I would still be in charge of how I behaved, even though depressed. I still get to choose. Even when doing what we choose is very very hard.

But again, one of the side lessons I learned was that fervency does not equal faith.

Really interesting point! It is true. Fervency is not the same as Faith. You said that so well, I want to steal it.

But I share, because I think this is important and I can't be the only one who has had to live with this.

Again.. thank you. I appreciate it. It is a very useful post for my question. Very very useful.

Meanwhile, I also had a thread of a journey about nutrition (and medication) and I did learn a few things early on and throughout, but just in the last two years, I have encountered some nutritional information and such and it took me a while to get strong enough and organized enough to utilize it, but even just in the last couple of years and the last few months, the existence of these nutritional choices (*wink*) I am making--the rage is just gone. It's not even there.

That is amazing. Can you share the nutritional things you came up with? I am really interested in a very focused way.

Now, honestly, I get REALLY upset (not rage! ha ha) that if I could only have known at the beginning of my adult life what I know now--then myself and my family could have been spared years of rage and its consequences (and I only mention the rage--there are other things, but I kept it simple for this post). I lay that at Heavenly Father's feet many times, and I tell him that he is the one accountable for that.

I have to admit -- though I am not sure it is a righteous thing -- I smile at this, because I really think you are right. But God gives us our weakness so that we may be humble.

But, crap, earth life is hard.

Yes. Every once in a while I imagine to myself that when we get to the other side we will amaze ourselves at really how wonderful we are -- and we did not know it.

At least I hope so.

[EllenMaksoud]

I don't know.

If you read the book of Job. Heavenly Father gave satan the power to test Job.

[thesometimesaint]

If you read the book of Job. Heavenly Father gave satan the power to test Job.

I love the account of Job in the Scriptures. What I don't know is how a Bronze Age account of a Stone Age story would actually play out in our Electronic Age. It is one of those area's I just don't know.

[EllenMaksoud]

I love the account of Job in the Scriptures. What I don't know is how a Bronze Age account of a Stone Age story would actually play out in our Electronic Age. It is one of those area's I just don't know.

I thought that my own experience was Job like when I was going through it. And, the trial, or punishment, lasted very close to 7 years. No one died, but at the time I wish I had. So no, it was not like Job's situation but it had its parallels.

[Maidservant]

First -- I want to say "Thank you"

Do you know if these rages came about because of personality disorder or was there something else happening?

Well, first of all, I have never been diagnosed with any personality disorder proper. But that's because I don't go to doctors. What they would end up saying were I to go, I have no idea.

So even just to answer your question, I read a little wikipedia, and I don't see, you know, lol "rage", listed there in the list of personality disorders. And at this point, again, I would have to call it something based on nutritional deficiencies. However, I suspect of my own opinion based on nothing but my own personal experience, I'm not a doc or anything, but just my personal suspicion, is that personality disorders have a great opportunity to be healed (not cured) through nutritional pathways. Were I to be correct in that, I don't know what that says about the nature of personality disorders, I don't know. But if we are talking chemical imbalances and whatnot (a physical NOT 'mental' illness), then the introduction of healing chemicals (foods) might not be so far off. But this is all Maidservent home remedy folklore (no doubt just enough to be dangerous, lol).

However, my challenges included manic/depression, addictions of many kinds, OCD, anxiety, depression, really phenomenally bad PMS's, PTSD and multiple personality (which this last permits me TO function, at least for the time being). And whatever you call it when your spirit (?) withdraws from your body. I don't think I have dealt with paranoia, schizophrenia, or psychotic episodes, not sure. I have not heard audible voices (and I say this because my dad did have some of these other things.) And a note on depression--this is not "I feel sad" depression. This is things like (and I'm sharing very plainly here): it once was about 8 months between baths I took, and it took me weeks between hair brushings. This is non-functional depression or fill-in-a-blank word, I don't care what you call it. Why that long? Because I was thinking about it the whole time, fearing these things, punishing myself, getting courage and energy to take a bath (or whatever). It took me that long to THINK about it. People might say, what? just BRUSH YOUR HAIR! just CHOOSE IT! But I am telling you, I could not. Now, when I learned to function, I learned to do these things without such a long time in between, BUT (up until very recently), I never did them naturally. I had to 'cope' my way through these things, talk myself into it, guide myself. "Now, wake up, Maidservant. Walk into the bathroom. Get the brush. There you go. Now brush your hair. Good. Because that's what humans do, and you're going to do it."

And anxiety--we are not talking 'feeling nervous'. This is an experience I recall: I arrived at the store, having driven there, and then I looked down at my feet and I realized I had worn the wrong shoes. Now, to begin with, there's no such thing as wearing wrong shoes to the store, you just put on the shoes and go--there should be no drama attached to shoes. But as I looked at my shoes, I was convinced I had worn the wrong shoes and that I was probably going to hell for wearing the wrong shoes and I just had to drive back to get new ones (I didn't but I was telling myself to) and my whole body and soul was in great distress over it and my mind repeated these kinds of things. I actually had enough awareness at that time to realize what was happening and, yes, I had the awareness and strength to take different action over the top of the experience. But I remember it exactly because I was beginning to transition into being aware of these things and that there was something seriously wrong with me and that (for example) I might want to investigate medication.

So I don't know what to call what I experience--if you can put it in the medical categories of personality disorder proper. But whatever you call it--it wasn't normal.

Let me take a small tangent away from my real interest area and comment. I don't mean to be callous, but I was not saying that you could control how you feel -- that you could choose that. What I mean is that you can choose how you will respond to that feeling.

Now, I might be wrong. Certainly there are handicaps, physical weakness, stokes, epilepsy, whereby people are not able to choose and control how their physical bodies will behave. But I have had some personal experiences that inform my sense of this. Let me give you one example.

For reasons I prefer not to disclose, I had at a fairly early age, learned to separate who I am from how I felt. Now this is not entirely perfect because, who I am will definitely affect how I feel. BUT, I have sort of learned that the reverse is not necessarily true: How I feel is not Who I am. I don't want to go into a lot of detail about this, but simply to say that I have noticed that many people will detect their feelings and decide that those feelings define who they are. This is not even just a few people. I think most people are that way. So, I would say that in that regard, I am abnormal.

And here is an example where this experience has helped me. A few years ago, I had a devastating year. I had four major injuries over the course of a year. On top of that, I was not gainfully employed. So it was easy to feel low and get down on yourself. I discovered something though: Every time I had an accident --72 hours later I would feel depressed and worthless. It was like clockwork. So, when the last accident happened I said, "Let me see if this happens again". And it did.

At that point I was able to say this rather silly thing to myself, but I believed it and it was true: "That depression is not me. It's not real. Its just the injury". Then the depression would come. It would be as strong as ever. I would utterly ignore it and work and play as though it did not exist. I even laughed at it -- because I knew it was not real and it was sort of funny to "feel" something that was not real.

I had to do that just this last year when I injured my arm in a manner so that I could not use it at all, and it still has not recovered completely. When the depression hit, I ignored it like nothing was happening. Because it was not real -- it was not me.

So I found a way to get around the depression. But here is the interesting thing: Even if I still thought it was real, I would still have to choose how I was going to react to it. Fortunately, I have found a way to choose that reaction so it is not very hard or difficult for me. If I thought the depression was real, the struggle to overcome it would be much much harder. BUT -- I would still be in charge of how I behaved, even though depressed. I still get to choose. Even when doing what we choose is very very hard.

Well, thank you for sharing your own experience. And I will not discount that. But a few things you say is exactly what I had to challenge for my own sanity. You know, my husband's cancer isn't who he was either. But feelings are not etheral things. They are molecules and electricities based on physical structure. So there is no such thing as mental illness in that sense--it's all physical. And my point would be that you can't always choose your response--not if you don't have the tools to do so. I DO ABSOLUTELY BELIEVE THAT I AM RESPONSIBLE. I learned that, boy did I learn it. I believe that so much. My life and how it goes is MY responsibility--not my spouses, the Churches, not even God's. It's mine. But being RESPONSIBLE for something doesn't automatically mean that you can actually do it. Thus, we are responsible for things we can't do. Now, that doesn't apply everywhere, because as you say, there are those who come to this earth, for example, with a Down's Syndrome challenge, and we don't ascribe responsibility for those things they can't do. But in any case, at least for myself, this is where the thing about being weak comes in. With the rage, I black out at times and didn't even know what I was doing. So how do you choose in the middle of a blackout? You don't. But you wake up the next day and you try to prepare yourself so that doesn't happen. And, again, I couldn't just say, well, since I'm blacking out, I don't have to try to change anything about myself. I couldn't say that. I had to struggle, because I was still responsible for the effect my body, my being and it's activites had, on my family. So I both agree with you and disagree a little. Some of what you describe that you learned to do is similar to some of the things I learned to do in order to function--but I had to gradually come to that level of awareness and practice doing those things. Having these physically based 'choice' and emotional challenges are like a person missing a hand. The hand doesn't come back, but the person learns to use the other hand and can live a full life regardless of the missing hand. And it gives me great compassion for people who may not enjoy that awareness.

You know, I do feel that I went through a process for many things where I felt horrible AFTER (instead of not being aware at all), and then later I was able to stop myself IN THE MIDDLE OF THE ACTION, and then later I was able to stop myself RIGHT BEFORE. And then you have the opportunity for more process, where the situation doesn't even present itself, because you kept learning what you need to learn, preparing yourself, humbling yourself, strengthening yourself, whatever.

You know, a note with all of this is what is called 'impulse control'. Most adults have this. We might get angry, but we don't just kill someone. We might feel lust, but we don't just immediately act on that. etc. But some people are missing impulse control (and I am or was, one of those). So what is the answer? Practice is part of it. Nutrition is a super big part of it, I say. Spiritual practice is part of that. BUT when it comes to personality disorders and other mental and emotional challenges, there is some (physically based) disfunction in the impulse control. What it is due to and how to fix it, I don't know. But we do know that, for example, kids are affected emotionally by what they eat quite often. I have a son who, when he was small, if he ate wheat, became hyper and rageful and defiant. So, of course that was because I was disciplining him incorrectly, right? No. My mothering style may not have changed, but if I kept him on rice flour and whatnot, we didn't have the defiance. It just wasn't there. Anyway, my point is we talk a lot about choosing and I just think we haven't given ourselves the tools to be able to choose, and one of those tools is nutrition.

Can you share the nutritional things you came up with? I am really interested in a very focused way.

It's nothing unusual from what we all know. But these are Maidservant's home remedy nutritional tips for optimal 'choosing' function .

1. Caffeine has absolutely NO place in the life and body of a person who has mental or emotional challenges. This includes soda and chocolate. (Obviously things like alcohol and nicotine have to be gone also.)

2. B12. A lot of it.

3. Mega dose with quality vitamin and mineral supplements (i.e. after I gave birth, I knew I would be skidding into post-partum depression and so I took 12-yes, 12--of my quality vitamin supplement a day, throughout the day, for several weeks; this helped me avoid that depression). (Your body has to be able to have the building blocks it needs to build emotional molecules. If it doesn't have them, it can't do it. Give your body a bank full of treasure!)

4. Learn to have vegetables be the center of your diet and avoid carbohydrates and sugars and be moderate with proteins and fruits. Obviously, it's a mistake to take carbs out completely, but if you are eating a box of twinkies instead of say, a handful of brown rice (they are both carbs), then you are going to have a twinkie depression and rage. When you make a supper menu, plan two to four veggies/ fruits/ salads AS THE MAIN IDEA instead meat or carb as the main idea. Then add your carbs and proteins as accents either in the veggie/salad recipe or as separate.

Note on the twinkies [as an example only--fill in the blank on your drug of choice]: If you don't prepare yourself beforehand with B12, and vitamin megadosing, you won't be able to say 'no' to the twinkies, at least consistently. They will always draw you in. The point of megadosing is it causes the cravings to not exist, so you just don't have that wrestle, or not as overwhelming.

5. Go to bed before 10 p.m., and as often as possible go to bed by 8 p.m.--that's not feasible in our lifestyle every day, but treat yourself to it one to three times a week.

6. Drink at least a half-gallon of purified water a day. Yes, that much.

I'm not saying these are cure-alls, but I am saying if we can learn to do these things (I'm still learning!) then some STUFF just won't be there and need to be 'chosen' about. Also if you try to do these things with a sense of deprivation, it will fail. You have to do these things with a sense of giving gifts, treasures, to your body--easier said than done to change the mentality, but worth the effort.

Yes. Every once in a while I imagine to myself that when we get to the other side we will amaze ourselves at really how wonderful we are -- and we did not know it.

Edited April 17, 2013 by Maidservant

[CASteinman]

Well, first of all, I have never been diagnosed with any personality disorder proper. ....

I just want to thank you very much for this post. I may have more but this is something to chew on for a while.

Really I thank you.

[Calm]

Do you know if these rages came about because of personality disorder or was there something else happening?

For a year or so I was going into anger mode in the evenings. My poor husband would get it because I had enough control to know it was not the kids that were causing me to get angry and of course I could always find something my husband was doing wrong...

Turned out it was a blood sugar issue (low blood sugar though I wasn't eating improperly), one that the doctor said would never go away. I removed sugar from my diet and never had another attack. However, after a couple of years I added sugar back in and still didn't get the attack. Never could figure out how I managed that until recently when I discovered that sleep deprivation can play havoc with your blood sugar levels and I was in major sleep disorder mode at the time due to having a young child around and not being able to nap during the day anymore. Anxiety and panic attacks completely disappeared when getting decent (for me) sleep as well.

Sleep issues can cause depression (as well as the other way around, unfortunately most doctors assume it is the other way around), severe mood changes, blood sugar issues and a host of other what appears to be totally unrelated problems. Among children it can manifest similar to ADHD. The body's chemistry is thrown off by lack of sleep, add into that whatever is causing the disorder if it is more than just not getting enough sleep....deadly mix (literally).

Edited April 17, 2013 by calmoriah

[EllenMaksoud]

For a year or so I was going into anger mode in the evenings. My poor husband would get it because I had enough control to know it was not the kids that were causing me to get angry and of course I could always find something my husband was doing wrong...

Turned out it was a blood sugar issue (low blood sugar though I wasn't eating improperly), one that the doctor said would never go away. I removed sugar from my diet and never had another attack. However, after a couple of years I added sugar back in and still didn't get the attack. Never could figure out how I managed that until recently when I discovered that sleep deprivation can play havoc with your blood sugar levels and I was in major sleep disorder mode at the time due to having a young child around and not being able to nap during the day anymore. Anxiety and panic attacks completely disappeared when getting decent (for me) sleep as well.

Sleep issues can cause depression (as well as the other way around, unfortunately most doctors assume it is the other way around), severe mood changes, blood sugar issues and a host of other what appears to be totally unrelated problems. Among children it can manifest similar to ADHD. The body's chemistry is thrown off by lack of sleep, add into that whatever is causing the disorder if it is more than just not getting enough sleep....deadly mix (literally).

I used to have rages that would come out of no where. They happened every month or two and were not because of "that". Finally I began to address the things in the past that made it happen.

[CASteinman]

For a year or so I was going into anger mode in the evenings. My poor husband would get it because I had enough control to know it was not the kids that were causing me to get angry and of course I could always find something my husband was doing wrong...

Turned out it was a blood sugar issue (low blood sugar though I wasn't eating improperly), one that the doctor said would never go away. I removed sugar from my diet and never had another attack. However, after a couple of years I added sugar back in and still didn't get the attack. Never could figure out how I managed that until recently when I discovered that sleep deprivation can play havoc with your blood sugar levels and I was in major sleep disorder mode at the time due to having a young child around and not being able to nap during the day anymore. Anxiety and panic attacks completely disappeared when getting decent (for me) sleep as well.

Sleep issues can cause depression (as well as the other way around, unfortunately most doctors assume it is the other way around), severe mood changes, blood sugar issues and a host of other what appears to be totally unrelated problems. Among children it can manifest similar to ADHD. The body's chemistry is thrown off by lack of sleep, add into that whatever is causing the disorder if it is more than just not getting enough sleep....deadly mix (literally).

You too: Thank you very very much.

[SamIam]

I don't claim that the unembodied do have an effect on the physical world. Just the opposite. All I'm asking you to do is give first hand proof of your assertion that they do.

A couple of illustrations:

http://mormonhistori...htFarm1_pfv.htm

http://www.newrevelations.net/hostsofhell.html

Philo Dibble gives this account:

Upon one occasion he said the keys of the kingdom were taken from us. On hearing this, many of his hearers wept, and when some one undertook to dismiss the meeting by prayer he said praying would do them no good, and the meeting broke up in confusion.

Brother Hyrum [smith] came to my house the next morning and told me all about it, and said it was false, and that the keys of the kingdom were still with us. He wanted my carriage and horses to go to the town of Hiram and bring Joseph. The word went abroad among the people immediately that Sidney [Rigdon] was going to expose "Mormonism."

Joseph came up to Kirtland a few days afterwards and held a meeting in a large barn. Nearly all the inhabitants of Kirtland turned out to hear him. The barn was filled with people, and others, unable to get inside, stood around the door as far as they could hear.

Joseph arose in our midst and spoke in mighty power, saying: "I can contend with wicked men and devils--yes with angels. No power can pluck those keys from me, except the power that gave them to me; that was Peter, James and John. But for what Sidney [Rigdon] has done, the devil shall handle him as one man handles another."

Thomas B. Marsh's wife went from the meeting and told Sidney [Rigdon] what Joseph had said, and he replied: "Is it possible that I have been so deceived? But if Joseph says so, it is so."

About three weeks after this, Sidney [Rigdon] was lying on his bed alone. An unseen power lifted him from his bed, threw him across the room, and tossed him from one side of the room to the other. The noise being heard in the adjoining room, his family went in to see what was the matter, and found him going from one side of the room to the other, from the effects of which Sidney was laid up for five or six weeks. Thus was Joseph's prediction in regard to him verified. [Philo Dibble autobiography] Retrieved from

http://www.boap.org/...c20history.html

Edited April 18, 2013 by SamIam

[SamIam]

I don't claim that the unembodied do have an effect on the physical world. Just the opposite. All I'm asking you to do is give first hand proof of your assertion that they do.

Bumped for response.

[thesometimesaint]

Bumped for response.

Prove your hypothesis.

[SamIam]

Prove your hypothesis.

I think you are being disingenuous in your failure to exercise your own ability to comment on the examples I provided.

Lets look at the post I was responding to:

I don't claim that the unembodied do have an effect on the physical world. Just the opposite. All I'm asking you to do is give first hand proof of your assertion that they do.

In each of the instances, I cited an observable occurrence took place that is attested to by multiple witnesses. An unseen force, which is in each case determined to be a disembodied spirit or spirits has manifest distinct influences that effect the physical world. Tossing people around in the case of the Knight and Rigdon situations, afflicting Williams and attacking Hyde and Kimball in the Preston England account.

Your proof is in the form of your testimony of whether or not you consider Joseph Smith a prophet who spoke truly that Sidney would be handled as one man handleth another or that the Newel K. Knight record as recorded in Josephs behalf by B. H. Roberts from his research is truthfully documented. Additionally, whether or not you believe that the details surrounding the several renditions and tangents of the Preston England story concerning Heber C. Kimball, Orson Hyde and others is really the question here. The proof is simply based on whether we believe that Joseph, Heber, Orson, Newell and others told a truthful story or whether we are simply going to chalk this up to mistaken superstitions and uneducated observations of spiritual buffoons. Did Joseph lie when he described in the first vision that the effect of the darkness around him was to bind his tongue etc. Are these not effects of disembodied spirits upon our physical world. In essence my question could simply be do you believe what Joseph attested too?

1.) Explain intelligently why are these not suitable examples or "proofs" that at least address your question of unembodied forces effecting the physical world is one possible response you might offer.

2.) In that explanation you might explain why these men's testimonies are inadequate "proof" of the evidences provided.

3.) You might define what you consider an adequate "proof".

This is not simply a tangential perspective that is off topic. The essence of one of Satan's greatest tools is that nobody want's to acknowledge him and will flee and obfuscate rather than intelligently address the realities. Consider:

2 Nephi 28:22

22 And behold, others he flattereth away, and telleth them there is no hell; and he saith unto them: I am no devil, for there is none—and thus he whispereth in their ears, until he grasps them with his awful chains, from whence there is no deliverance.

If you do not agree that this verse speaks to the issue of his desire to remain concealed and that that is germane to this discussion please explain.

Brigham Young makes an observation which I paraphrase, that as one increases in his knowledge of the nature of good he must also increase in his knowledge of the nature of evil. Thus one can always determine another's spiritual maturity in righteous principles based upon their experience in comprehending the principles upon which Satan works.

I have no trouble if some want to deny his realities. It simply means they will only progress very little in the knowledge that brings us back into the Saviors presence. It never hurts to ponder perspectives that we have negated to properly address in our considerations of matters such as these.

Edited April 20, 2013 by SamIam

[thesometimesaint]

No disingenuousness on my part. But it is a little bit Tongue-in-Cheek. It sets up a double bind that no one can fulfill. Argument from Scripture is just a form of self-referential circular argument. You need to do better.

[SamIam]

No disingenuousness on my part. But it is a little bit Tongue-in-Cheek. It sets up a double bind that no one can fulfill.

And that's not disingenuous how??? In all the times over the years that I or others have ever attempted to garner a thoughtful response from you it has never succeeded. You are set in your ways and can see no other truth than your own. Every once in a while I touch base with you to see if anything has changed - You are profoundly consistent.

[Daniel2]

What KevinG said.

Mental illnesses, like physical illnesses (and in many cases mental illnesses are physical illnesses), may not always be curable, and we may have to wait till the next life for that. However, it is possible that the Gospel can help improve a person's life/bring some measure of happiness a little bit, even if it doesn't fix everything.

Having lived with two different people who had Borderline Personality Disorder, I can tell you, it's a real challenge! Wishing you the best, my friend.

DH, my heart definitely goes out to anyone that has a loved one with borderline personality disorder. While there are many things about the LDS faith that I don't believe in, I certainly wish and hope that it would help anyone struggling with BPD within their family dynamics. I have witnessed firsthand the extreme challenges and devastation BPD can cause within relationships. In Utah County, NAMI conducts some great workshops and has a great support group at the state mental hospital. I highly recommend the 12 week Family to Family workshop and the family support group!

http://www.namiut.org/find-local-support/free-education/family-to-family

Daniel2

Edited April 20, 2013 by Daniel2

[Tacenda]

The Gallop poll has named Utah the 5th most stressed out state. I wonder which state is the best for mental health because I want to move!!!!!

CFR will be answered soon, I just barely watched it on FOX13 NEWS.

Edited April 25, 2013 by Tacenda

[SamIam]

The Gallop poll has named Utah the 5th most stressed out state. I wonder which state is the best for mental health because I want to move!!!!!

There is no need to take personal responsibility for the poor poll results. It's okay if you stay around as we'd only pick up a few points anyway.