"Mormon Reformation" Group To Post "95 Theses" On Lds Buildings On 2/16

[juliann]

I can't even imagine how much fun the YM & YW could have with this on a Sat. night.

[The Nehor]

We all know that you and the nursery kids have worked out a protection racket- if you don't get paid, they don't stop crying.

Hey, I give them a fair cut.

[cinepro]

And while I can understand the symbolism of the "95" statements, times have changed, and they might find a little more traction with a more focused line of discussion. Maybe the "9.5" theses?

[sethpayne]

I can't even imagine how much fun the YM & YW could have with this on a Sat. night.

Ha! That is a great idea.

[Hamilton Porter]

It may just give the strugglers a bad name and have the opposite affect, hurt relationships possibly. For instance the very first one is JS using a stone in a hat to translate, I mentioned this story in a primary class recently when learning about the translation process. Now if the teacher sees this she'll wonder if I was introducing anti material in the classroom.

Good job. Teach this when they are young (and think it's cool).

[Buzzard]

I wondered when someone would bring this up. I also wonder if any sisters involved in this effort will be wearing pants.

[AddamS]

I don't understand why people don't just leave the church if these issues bother them so much.

[SteveO]

I'm currently here at BYU, and I have to wonder if anybody who is still saying the church suppresses discussion and its history have ever stepped foot in a classroom here. Joseph Smith's head in a hat? Entire passages complete with the original KJV errors found in the BoM? Polygamy and every single unpleasant aspect of Joseph's life? Masons and the temple? ALL of it discussed and then some at BYU. I think anti Mormonism is going to have to come up with something new, because this stuff just isn't news anymore, and it doesn't faze anyone. Majority of members in the next couple of years won't bat an eye when this stuff comes up...and that whole "must have never had a testimony in the first place" is going to rear its ugly head again...because this stuff is taught and discussed and isn't secret--gonna be infuriating to many ex-mormons.

Edited February 12, 2013 by SteveO

[The Nehor]

I don't understand why people don't just leave the church if these issues bother them so much.

Because then no one else will leave with them and validate them as right.

[Senator]

I don't understand why people don't just leave the church if these issues bother them so much.

Many have done so.

[smac97]

I'm currently here at BYU, and I have to wonder if anybody who is still saying the church suppresses discussion and its history have ever stepped foot in a classroom here. Joseph Smith's head in a hat? Entire passages complete with the original KJV errors found in the BoM? Polygamy and every single unpleasant aspect of Joseph's life? Masons and the temple? ALL of it discussed and then some at BYU. I think anti Mormonism is going to have to come up with something new, because this stuff just isn't news anymore, and it doesn't faze anyone.

Well, it fazes some people. Hence Michael Ash's "Shaken Faith Syndrome."

Majority of members in the next couple of years won't bat an eye when this stuff comes up...and that whole "must have never had a testimony in the first place" is going to rear its ugly head again...because this stuff is taught and discussed and isn't secret--gonna be infuriating to many ex-mormons.

I think we'll see an increasing level of sensationalism.

-Smac

[Mark Beesley]

I am fairly familiar with the law. Apart from the intended conduct easily falling into the definition of the tort of trespass, it may also constitute criminal trespass as well. See Utah Code sec. 76-6-206(2)(a).

Thanks,

-Smac

Since Chapel property is generally open to the public, and there is nothing criminal about taping a piece of paper to a door, it is unlikely that this would constitute trespass until an authorized agent of the Church invited the individual to leave and they refused.

[ozpoof]

It's strange how many people who claim to have the truth are so scared of a few facts - and yes, they are facts if any of you bothered to check for yourself.

Now instead of acting like brats and tearing up someone else's hard work, why don't you address the issues raised and stop the ad hominem attacks and silly nit picking. Calling people "cowardly" and quibbling over the number of theses, as if that's what really matters. Grow up. Do you want them to stand at the chapel door with a stack of copies handing them out? Of course not. You'll call the police or something. How do you want them to get these facts addressed by the church? How do you suggest those who have studied church history using Church documents (not so-called anti Mormon material) get their concerns looked at by the leadership? If you actually researched the church using its own documents you would see how many untruths are taught over the pulpit each Sunday and in church publications. Do you actually want to keep teaching and learning a false history of your faith that the church's OWN DOCUMENTS show is a lie? What type of organization are you protecting?

Dismissing the issues and "anti Mormon" is a technique used by those who don't want to research and understand the issues in question. If the truth is "anti Mormon", what does that make Mormonism????? What kind of people are you? Step back and take a long look at your behavior.

You might also not be so selfish to try to stop others from thinking about the issues raised. If the church is true it should be able to stand up against the FACTS hidden from the general membership for so long without people scurrying around trying to hide them. The cat's outta the bag folks. The internet age means ordinary people can search for the truth. It's just like when the Bible was finally published in English. The church (Catholic) couldn't stop people questioning what they had bee telling them was fact any more. They could read it for themselves. Just think for a minute about the type of people who try to prevent others from learning. Historically they have always been on the wrong side of an argument, which is why they have to play dirty. When this gets to the media, and it will, there will be part of the story showing torn up pages or closed minded members refusing to even read the paper. All that does is confirm to all that LDS members are unable to think for themselves, and are willing to believe anything their leaders tell them even if Mormon documents actually show the complete opposite was true. It won't look good.

Finally, for those who claim these issues have been addressed by the church, I ask WHERE? If FAIR or FARMS came up with some attempt at answers, that's not good enough. The Corporation of the President of the COJCOLDS has never stood behind any of the so-called answers given by apologists. There are disclaimers on apologist websites stating as much. If these "answers" were what the official church wishes to be known, they would say so. Instead the Church tries to ignore the issues raised, hoping they will go away. They won't, especially as more people worldwide are now able to read early LDS documents online and compare the facts to what the modern church teaches.

Keep dismissing people like these 260. Keep ignoring the issues. Keep combining wards and reducing temple operating hours.

We call this flaming. You have already been removed from one thread today so you might want to reconsider your approach.

[Calm]

If they were out on the sidewalk handing stuff out, I'd go talk to them just like I do when any nonLDS missionaries come to the door or any friends or family has question. Them sneaking around putting up on a door one sign that is going to get pulled down by the first person to read it so they can read it just because it will be easier to read that way isn't going to accomplish anything.

The whole scheme sounds like a poorly planned high school stunt.

Edited February 12, 2013 by calmoriah

[smac97]

Since Chapel property is generally open to the public,

During the daytime, yes. But not in the middle of the night. And it's open to the public provided they behave properly.

Skulking around private property at night, with the intent to engage in behavior the property owner would not allow if aware of it, is not appropriate. It may also constitute criminal trespass (though I'm not particularly invested in that outcome).

and there is nothing criminal about taping a piece of paper to a door,

Re-read the statute. And ask yourself why, if this behavior is so innocuous, are these people planning to do it in the middle of the night.

it is unlikely that this would constitute trespass until an authorized agent of the Church invited the individual to leave and they refused.

I think the statute allows for it. "A person is guilty of criminal trespass if ... the person enters or remains unlawfully on property and ... intends to cause annoyance ... to any person."

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited February 12, 2013 by smac97

[sethpayne]

It's strange how many people who claim to have the truth are so scared of a few facts - and yes, they are facts if any of you bothered to check for yourself.

Now instead of acting like brats and tearing up someone else's hard work, why don't you address the issues raised and stop the ad hominem attacks and silly nit picking. Calling people "cowardly" and quibbling over the number of theses, as if that's what really matters. Grow up. Do you want them to stand at the chapel door with a stack of copies handing them out? Of course not. You'll call the police or something. How do you want them to get these facts addressed by the church? How do you suggest those who have studied church history using Church documents (not so-called anti Mormon material) get their concerns looked at by the leadership? If you actually researched the church using its own documents you would see how many untruths are taught over the pulpit each Sunday and in church publications. Do you actually want to keep teaching and learning a false history of your faith that the church's OWN DOCUMENTS show is a lie? What type of organization are you protecting?

Dismissing the issues and "anti Mormon" is a technique used by those who don't want to research and understand the issues in question. If the truth is "anti Mormon", what does that make Mormonism????? What kind of people are you? Step back and take a long look at your behavior.

You might also not be so selfish to try to stop others from thinking about the issues raised. If the church is true it should be able to stand up against the FACTS hidden from the general membership for so long without people scurrying around trying to hide them. The cat's outta the bag folks. The internet age means ordinary people can search for the truth. It's just like when the Bible was finally published in English. The church (Catholic) couldn't stop people questioning what they had bee telling them was fact any more. They could read it for themselves. Just think for a minute about the type of people who try to prevent others from learning. Historically they have always been on the wrong side of an argument, which is why they have to play dirty. When this gets to the media, and it will, there will be part of the story showing torn up pages or closed minded members refusing to even read the paper. All that does is confirm to all that LDS members are unable to think for themselves, and are willing to believe anything their leaders tell them even if Mormon documents actually show the complete opposite was true. It won't look good.

Finally, for those who claim these issues have been addressed by the church, I ask WHERE? If FAIR or FARMS came up with some attempt at answers, that's not good enough. The Corporation of the President of the COJCOLDS has never stood behind any of the so-called answers given by apologists. There are disclaimers on apologist websites stating as much. If these "answers" were what the official church wishes to be known, they would say so. Instead the Church tries to ignore the issues raised, hoping they will go away. They won't, especially as more people worldwide are now able to read early LDS documents online and compare the facts to what the modern church teaches.

Keep dismissing people like these 260. Keep ignoring the issues. Keep combining wards and reducing temple operating hours.

You are kidding me right?

The white knight swoops in to save all of us ignorant fools!!!

I don't know if you are part of this 95 Theses effort but if so I have a couple of tips:

1. Understand the history of the 95 Theses so when you put yours together you don't look, well, stupid.

2. Read BYU studies. You will be amazed at just how much "hidden" material you will find there.

3. Read Armand Mauss. If you really want to help the Church move forward and address some of these difficult issues it would help to be aware of the social dynamics that drive the Church and its leaders. If you think that posting 95 statements on Chapel doors will have any impact, whatsoever, on the institutional Church, you are deluded.

I agree that the Church needs to do a lot better in its correlated material. But a stupid stunt just sets the effort back.

[Calm]

It's strange how many people who claim to have the truth are so scared of a few facts - and yes, they are facts if any of you bothered to check for yourself.

Now instead of acting like brats and tearing up someone else's hard work,

don't see a lot of hard work there, just a repeat of lists others have already put together. No evidence that they have paid attention to the scholarship on the subjects and if they are relatively educated, open minded individuals then I must assume they didn't even study themselves some of the issues they listed as they wouldn't have included them as plausible.

It is always a shame when critics use the shotgun approach, not caring about quality, but only quantity because it discredits them and leaves me with no interest to engage what appear to be uneducated (in regards to the criticisms) individuals and really calls into question the sincerity that they just want to educate church members. If they can't be bothered to educate themselves, then I highly doubt their actual intent is to educate others.

If the list was trimmed to the significant issues, the ones that are not only not inaccurate, but even with added context that we are aware of are still problematic....such as many of the plural marriage issues....now that would be a list that should be paid attention to, significant attention IMO.

But wading through the dross to get to the few gems....not worth it, I can do that in much better ways with much better informed critics elsewhere, this is a waste of time and resources.

[Calm]

I wondered when someone would bring this up. I also wonder if any sisters involved in this effort will be wearing pants.

I would hope that group is educated enough to stay away from these guys.

[Calm]

"When this gets to the media, and it will, there will be part of the story showing torn up pages or closed minded members refusing to even read the paper....... It won't look good."

So this is pretty much a publicity stunt, got it.

[Calm]

I will need to double check once my laptop is charged again so i can compare better but it looks like they may have plagiarised their list.

If so, not impressed with their "hard work"

Possibly my bad, it may be the other site referencing them...the problems of using a too small screen.

Edited February 12, 2013 by calmoriah

[mfbukowski]

PR Release:

Here is a PDF of the document to be posted.

Here is the group's blog.

A few thoughts:

1. The use of pseudonym ("Luther-day Saint"), together with a claimed-but-unsubstantiated-and-unidentified number of "260" participants, does not inspire confidence in the intentions of these people (assuming that there are multiple people involved - this announcement has a whiff of hoax about it).

2. The timing of the distribution of the flyers (at night, just before church meetings) and the means of distribution (apparently involving trespassing on church property) also does not inspire confidence.

3. A secretive group using pseudonyms, posting anonymous and unsigned anti-mormon literature on LDS Church buildings, in the middle of the night, by trespassing, and all the while complaining about lack of disclosure and honesty by the Church is ... ironic.

Thoughts?

-Smac

Pretty silly.

The first to get it will be the leaders getting to early morning meetings, and they will be taken down and filed appropriately.

If they are handing out flyers while members are arriving their credibility will be right in line with General Conference protesters.

I am not exactly concerned

[mfbukowski]

Utah.

Sigh.

[juliann]

It's strange how many people who claim to have the truth are so scared of a few facts - and yes, they are facts if any of you bothered to check for yourself.

Now instead of acting like brats and tearing up someone else's hard work, why don't you address the issues raised and stop the ad hominem attacks and silly nit picking. Calling people "cowardly" and quibbling over the number of theses, as if that's what really matters. Grow up. Do you want them to stand at the chapel door with a stack of copies handing them out? Of course not. You'll call the police or something. How do you want them to get these facts addressed by the church? How do you suggest those who have studied church history using Church documents (not so-called anti Mormon material) get their concerns looked at by the leadership? If you actually researched the church using its own documents you would see how many untruths are taught over the pulpit each Sunday and in church publications. Do you actually want to keep teaching and learning a false history of your faith that the church's OWN DOCUMENTS show is a lie? What type of organization are you protecting?

The message board is a type of online media and we protect it by sending in post reports to the moderators. You are part of a truly inspiring story. It wasn't more than two days ago that some were lamenting bygone days when Nemesis allowed us to play with trolls. They must have held a fast to soften his onery heart. The good news is that if you can hold back the attacks you will get better exposure here than if you accomplished your brave deed running through the night naked.

[Calm]

The image burns the eyes.

[rpn]

I don't think their intended audience is the church at all, their PR to the contrary. It is persuading church members to validate their concerns and/or to leave the church, and/or to feel uncomfortable and/or to begin questioning.

Whether any apologist wants to/should follow them to the chapels and take their photos and put them online, is another issue.