When You Remove The Keystone Everything Does Fall

[Questing Beast]

Early in my life I learned that I should receive a testimony of the Book of Mormon, then everything about the Church would fit into place: Joseph Smith would be a prophet, Jesus would be real and the Christ, the Restored Church would be true.

So I built all my efforts to believe others' testimonies of the BofM. I have read it many times more than any other book. I for many years read from it at length every day. I prayed to know if it is true. And for quite a while, I felt that it might be; because I only saw good come from it and because people I knew to be truthful unflinchingly bore testimony that they knew without a doubt that God had told them it is true (my wife and my mother are like that).

Along came facts that do not fit. The facts that did seem to fit were overwhelmingly outnumbered by the facts that do not. This of course bothered me: truth should be supported by physical evidence. I maintained a regimen of study and prayer for years as the feeling of being "fed" by the scriptures dried up and it became a burden. I stopped beating my head against the wall.

When I at last admitted that the BofM was created somehow by Joseph Smith, of course this was like knocking the "keystone" right out; the archway of my religious faith fell to rubble. But the pieces were largely intact; only the shape, the paradigm, had fallen. I have had the power to gather the pieces and keep them. I have not attempted to reconstruct another archway. Rather than try to fit the pieces back together, I keep them in a state of shifting order; sometimes one belief is in my mind predominating over the others; no single paradigm has asserted itself.

In the surviving pieces, the BofM retains a place. I now see it as the sign of Joseph Smith's calling, rather than as a religious history. By producing the BofM, Joseph Smith showed that he understood the Bible better than anyone else: he used the BofM to prove his authority to teach everyone else how to follow Christ. Joseph Smith did not teach from the BofM; he used the Bible, and the "revelations" (the D&C).

There is very little in the BofM that I find profound enough to make particular use of. Prominently, the two most important to me personally are found in 1st and 2nd Nephi. In 1Ne22:23 he gives the four areas of human temptation, what I like to refer to as "the four pillars of pride": love of popularity, love of material things (getting "gain" or riches), lust for power over others ("over the flesh" or lives of others), and lusts of the flesh. In 2Ne2:11-13 is the greatest explanation of why opposition must be that I have found in literature.

I am sure that there are many more kernels of truth sewn throughout the book that can appeal to everyone and are not "Christian specific" (or even Mormon specific). But this far past my last comprehensive reading, those are the two that I make contemporary use of on an almost daily basis.

I invite anyone else who has bothered to read this OP, to share what they retain from the BofM as life-defining truths: I welcome both believing Mormons and anyone else who has been one, or has read the BofM and remembers profound insights gleaned from it....

[Freedom]

Along came facts that do not fit. The facts that did seem to fit were overwhelmingly outnumbered by the facts that do not. This of course bothered me: truth should be supported by physical evidence. I maintained a regimen of study and prayer for years as the feeling of being "fed" by the scriptures dried up and it became a burden. I stopped beating my head against the wall.

I invite anyone else who has bothered to read this OP, to share what they retain from the BofM as life-defining truths: I welcome both believing Mormons and anyone else who has been one, or has read the BofM and remembers profound insights gleaned from it....

I assume therefore that you also reject the Bible since there is a complete lack of evidence for anything recorded there as well. And on what basis to you feel that truth should be supported by physical evidence? I do not have any physical evidence that the law of chastity is true, nor do I have any physical evidence that praying is of any use. Because of the problem I have with the basis of your argument I do not know how to respond to your request. Can you give examples of physical evidence that qualify your truths?

[mfbukowski]

Moroni 10: 4-5 totally changed my life. It had never occurred to me that God could actually speak to people.

Alma 32 is a marvelous example of how the pragmatic method directs ones life in finding meaning.

There are many others

[mfbukowski]

I assume therefore that you also reject the Bible since there is a complete lack of evidence for anything recorded there as well. And on what basis to you feel that truth should be supported by physical evidence? I do not have any physical evidence that the law of chastity is true, nor do I have any physical evidence that praying is of any use. Because of the problem I have with the basis of your argument I do not know how to respond to your request. Can you give examples of physical evidence that qualify your truths?

I have had my share of disagreements with Questing, but I think you really mis-read the OP. I would encourage you to read it again, slowly, and respond with what he is actually asking for.

[rodheadlee]

I invite anyone else who has bothered to read this OP, to share what they retain from the BofM as life-defining truths: I welcome both believing Mormons and anyone else who has been one, or has read the BofM and remembers profound insights gleaned from it....

Ether 4 :12

12 And whatsoever thing persuadeth men to do good is of me; for ^agood cometh of none save it be of me. I am the same that leadeth men to all good; he that will ^bnot believe my words will not believe me—that I am; and he that will not believe me will not believe the Father who sent me. For behold, I am the Father, I am the ^clight, and the ^dlife, and the ^etruth of the world.

[Calm]

Been awhile, rod. Good to see you.

[Kevin Christensen]

It turns out that the Book of Mormon is an excellent Twelve Step book. See Colleen Harrison's He Did Deliver Me From Bondage: Using the Book of Mormon and the Principles of the Gospel of Jesus Christ as they Correlate with the Twelve Step Program to Overcome Compulsive/Addictive Behavior and Other Problems.

And an excellent study of NDEs.

And an impressive study of Survivor Witness behavior, as later seen in Nazi and Soviet Death camps

And it provides the epistomology of Thomas Kuhn's The Structure of Scientific Revolutions.

Plus a window into First Temple Theology

Plus an impressive guide to Guerilla Warfare

Not to mention an impressive guide to Olive Culture

As well as a impressive guide for how to get to Bountiful from Jerusalem, showing what to expect where.

Not to mention an impressive example of the archetypal tree of life visions.

Plus an interesting study of what makes a culture rise and fall, as Nibley pointed out.

And of course, as Alan Goff has noticed, an impressive demonstration of the use of type scenes and allusion as later examined by Robert Alter in The Art of Biblical Narrative.

And a useful study in Mosiah of the pre-exilic ritual that combined coronation, Day of Atonement, Tabernacles, Sabbath Year, and the Jubilee.

And a detailed study of large scale phenomena like volcanics and esoteric things like Arabian arrow divination.

Not to mention in providing an interpretive framework for the Sermon on the Mount as a temple text that unifies what many scholars had long treated as a collection of sayings. See Welch's books.

And of course, an interesting demonstraton for how an archetypal Jewish Father should address his sons on the passover.

And an exemplary approach to the nature of Epic cultures.

And a helpful example of how to turn View of the Hebrews about the fall of Jerusalem to the Romans and a study of pop culture thoughts about the Lost Ten Tribes and the Mound Builders into something completely different by burying one's face in a hat for two months and just blathering in hopes that something that comes out might sell a few books, and then keep John Sorenson, Diane Wirth, Brant Gardner, Larry Poulsen and Mark Wright busier and more enthused than that might be otherwise in 180 years, and never mind the tar and feathers, the loss of several children, and a few months in Liberty Jail.

But even for those who don't accept the Book of Mormon, as an alternative to the all or nothing approach, you might consider what I wrote in my study of Mormon Spiritual experience:

Like it or not, people within the Mormon tradition can and do enjoy the full range of all the experiential and historic aspects of religion, along with access to rich symbolism. Each aspect becomes like a thread in a rope: awe at the creation, numinous and mystic encounter, moments of reorientation of the mind, and reconciliation of the heart, moral obligation, the likening of scriptures to ourselves, making ancient stories into personal biography, dipping into the common mythic experience of humankind, or any number of individual historic events that define and bind our community. Like it or not, when you look at the Mormon community and the Mormon faith at this level of core experience, all that defines religion anywhere exists here. Therefore, like it or not, at the outset, any assessment of the religious value of Mormonism should admit that here the fountain of living waters flows briskly. In assessing Mormonism, in dealing with questions raised about any particular thread in what can be a complex bundle of threads of varied strengths, some more significant than others, but no single thread carrying all the weight, keep in mind that the validity of Mormon spiritual life must be accepted as a given.

FWW

Kevin Christensen

Bethel Park, PA

Edited October 31, 2011 by Kevin Christensen

[Questing Beast]

Well, the "all or nothing" approach is the rub, isn't it? Mormonism makes the assertion that "all or nothing" is the choice after reading the book. But nobody else has to agree. I know people intimately who are the equal of the best Mormons I have ever known; and their religion, or rather spiritual quest, is no less meaningful either....

[elguanteloko]

Honestly, the only interesting things I ever saw in the BoM were Christ's appearance in 3 Nephi 10 and his subsequent words. The story of the brother of Jared was interesting when faith was something interesting. It really is a very uninteresting book, QB.

[altersteve]

"I rejoice in the day when my mortal shall put on immortality, and shall stand before him; then shall I see his face with pleasure, and he will say unto me: Come unto me, ye blessed, there is a place prepared for you in the mansions of my Father" (Enos 1:27).

[Libs]

I always loved Lehi's vision with the Tree of Life and the iron rod. I still believe it's great symbolism for the straight and narrow path to God.

[Storm Rider]

Well, the "all or nothing" approach is the rub, isn't it? Mormonism makes the assertion that "all or nothing" is the choice after reading the book. But nobody else has to agree. I know people intimately who are the equal of the best Mormons I have ever known; and their religion, or rather spiritual quest, is no less meaningful either....

I don't think LDS think they have a corner on being righteous. In fact, they acknowledge and respect the truth found in all belief systems as well as the righteousness of their followers/believers.

LDS believe that the fullness of the gospel should provide a more direct path to righeousness IF it is embraced (as in be engaged) and followed. In reality, we bothcould find the best that humanity has to offer in all religions and faiths. One's membership or enrollment is meaningless unless we each are committed to our cause, with sincere heart, follow its precepts.

[Kevin Christensen]

Well, the "all or nothing" approach is the rub, isn't it? Mormonism makes the assertion that "all or nothing" is the choice after reading the book. But nobody else has to agree. I know people intimately who are the equal of the best Mormons I have ever known; and their religion, or rather spiritual quest, is no less meaningful either....

Actually it isn't Mormonism that makes the "all or nothing" choice. That's an interpretation, conditioned, I think by both developmental and cultural issues. One of of the conditioning issues is Stage 2 Perry Scheme:

POSITION 2 - Multiplicity Prelegitimate. (Resisting snake)

Now the person moves to accept that there is diversity, but they still think there are TRUE authorities who are right, that the others are confused by complexities or are just frauds. They think they are with the true authorities and are right while all others are wrong. They accept that their good authorities present problems so they can learn to reach right answers independently.

Culturally speaking, there is a tendency to go along with authority figures, particularly with the natural predominance of SJ types in leadership. There are some practical reasons for that. Hoffer's The True Believer points out that no mass movement ever succeeded without that kind of thinking because only that thinking generates the sacrifice and effort required.

But a closer look at LDS scriptures and prophetic teaching provides a much more robust and tolerant foundation than given by a brittle "only true" or "false and useless" view. Joseph Smith, for example, taught that God judges people against the light that they have, not against some absolute standard. And the only way to get D&C 1:30 to say "only true church" is to delete most of the words in the verse as mere rhetorical flourish, void of meaning, and to ignore the direct statements elsewhere in D&C 1 that rule out that reading. The distinction is "only well pleasing" relative to what "true and living" indicate, which in Biblical imagery refer to things like priesthood, ongoing revelation, ordinances, and the temple. Not exclusive truth or virtue.

Kevin Christensen

Pittsburgh, PA

[Sky]

There is a lot to learn from the Book of Mormon – but its central theme seems to be “repent and come unto Christ.” If it’s not actually a historical book, it takes away from the power of that message. I mean, why repent and build your life around a work of fiction? I don’t understand how Joseph Smith could have concocted something like this if it wasn’t really the work of God.

The chapters that I get the most out of are the ones with spiritual messages, rather than the ones having more to do with the wars and contentions between the Nephites and Lamanites.

Some of my favorite chapters:

1^st Nephi, chapter 8

2^nd Nephi, chapter 2

Enos

Alma 5

Alma 30

Alma 32

3^rd Nephi 11

[JeremyOrbe-Smith]

Interesting question, Questing Beast.

I was an atheist before I was Mormon; it is, I believe, one of the only living religions I could belong to. (There are dead religions which I might be able to, but they're seen as "mythology" by most modern folk.) Most of the life-defining truths I find the Book of Mormon have to do with the Tree of Life, the Divine Council, and the physically embodied nature of God, which utterly overturns a great deal of western philosophy and gives me hope that me and family and friends might just have a chance of getting out of this world alive.

(As a caveat, I do recognize that I maintain what is currently seen as an idiosyncratic interpretation of the Book of Mormon that might be uncomfortable for more conservative members [though I hope as time passes that it will come to be seen as more mainstream]).

Specifically, because I suspect that the Holy Spirit is female, I see the Book of Mormon as being, essentially, an extremely important preservation of the Wisdom tradition in which the Goddess is associated with the Tree of Life. For instance, 2 Nephi 21:1 quotes Isaiah: "And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a branch shall grow out of his roots. And the Spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him, the pirit of [W]isdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord."

The nearly-constant admonition of the Book of Mormon is to always remember the gifts of the Holy Spirit and walk in Wisdom's Paths; with the addition of Enoch in the Pearl of Great Price, I think the Book of Mormon is absolutely indispensable because it preserves a place for Lady Wisdom, which Enoch warned would be lost. ("And they shall contend one with another; and their priests shall contend one with another, and they shall teach with their learning, and deny the Holy Ghost, which giveth utterance." - 2 Nephi 28:4)

This opens up a whole new (or rather, Restored and ancient) paradigm from which to view religion: instead of the dominant western tradition of strict Aristotelian, Post-Augustinian NeoPlatonic monotheism, I see the Book of Mormon constantly espousing the principle of the Divine Council: "Godhood" is not an ontologically-unique description of the First Cause. We really are the Gods, male and female; being eternal Uncreated Intelligence, with no Gods formed before or after us, we are responsible for our own actions because we cannot blame our sins on anyone else.

2 Nephi's 2:25 teaching that "Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy" is therefore a complete reversal of most of the western world's view of mankind as depraved wormlike sinners, which is something an old humanist like me simply adores. As 2 Nephi 31:21 says, "this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen." The human family, united in purpose, is the true godhead to have faith in, not some species-unique disembodied abstraction. When Christ visits us in the New Testament, he institutes a "renewing" of the Holy Spirit, baptism, and has His Apostles warn against likening the Godhead to lifeless statues rather than the living Father [and, in my opinion, Mother].

This is particularly prominent, for me, in Lehi and Nephi's compounded visions of the pure waters flowing from the Tree of Life, in which the Spirit descends to give life to the fruit, the Messiah. (I think of Josephus' account of how one of the rivers which flowed out of Eden was the Ganges, which the Indus-river valley religions think of as Mother Ganga, She who gives the Water of LIfe, just as Alma baptizes in the Waters of Mormon for the gift of the Holy Spirit of Wisdom.)

The Spirit of Wisdom compares the House of Israel to an Olive Tree in 1 Nephi 15:12, and the symbolism of Jacob's allegory of the Vineyard is extremely potent for me, with the branches of the family being gathered back in. 5:60: "And because that I have preserved the natural branches and the roots thereof, and that I have grafted in the natural branches again into their mother tree, and have preserved the roots of their mother tree, that, perhaps, the trees of my vineyard may bring forth again good fruit; and that I may have joy again in the fruit of my vineyard, and, perhaps, that I may rejoice exceedingly that I have preserved the roots and the branches of the first fruit." And I use Alma's paradigm of the Tree which reveals truth in successive stages after the missionaries pray for wisdom on pretty much a daily basis.

Similarly, I think 2 Nephi 29:7-14 is one of the most powerful scriptures we have, since it demonstrates the terrible folly of a closed consensus-produced canon. Some of the best writings in the world are outside the standard works, and I find it deeply heartening that God is not a respecter of persons who only deigns to speak to certain nations - witness how Samuel the Lamanite, member of the tribe of The Enemy has just as much right to be a Prophet as "the good guys". The idea that the testimonies of two nations can run together is dear to me, since as a cultural diffusionist I see more commonalities between geographically-separated religions than differences. (Growing up in Hawaii, a melting-pot of all sorts of religious traditions from east, west, north and south, I definitely put Stendahl's "holy envy" to work.)

(I love Brigham Young's discourses on this: "Such a plan incorporates every system of true doctrine on the earth, whether it be ecclesiastical, moral, philosophical, or civil; it incorporates all good laws that have been made from the days of Adam until now; it swallows up the laws of nations, for it exceeds them all in knowledge and purity, it circumscribes the doctrines of the day, and takes from the right and the left, and brings all truth together in one system, and leaves the chaff to be scattered hither and thither [DBY, 3–4]."

"It is our duty and calling, as ministers of the same salvation and Gospel, to gather every item of truth and reject every error. Whether a truth be found with professed infidels, or with the Universalists, or the Church of Rome, or the Methodists, the Church of England, the Presbyterians, the Baptists, the Quakers, the Shakers, or any other of the various and numerous different sects and parties, all of whom have more or less truth, it is the business of the Elders of this Church [Jesus, their Elder Brother, being at their head] to gather up all the truths in the world pertaining to life and salvation, to the Gospel we preach, […] to the sciences, and to philosophy, wherever it may be found in every nation, kindred, tongue, and people and bring it to Zion [DBY, 248].)

Alma's sermon at 5:52 admonishes us not to cut off this further revelation and learning: "And again I say unto you, the Spirit saith: Behold, the ax is laid at the root of the tree; therefore every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit shall be hewn down and cast into the fire, yea, a fire which cannot be consumed, even an unquenchable fire. Behold, and remember, the Holy One hath spoken it. Yea, will ye persist in supposing that ye are better one than another; yea, will ye persist in the persecution of your brethren, who humble themselves and do walk after the holy order of God, wherewith they have been brought into this church, having been sanctified by the Holy Spirit, and they do bring forth works which are meet for repentance - I speak by way of command unto you that belong to the church; and unto those who do not belong to the church I speak by way of invitation, saying: Come and be baptized unto repentance, that ye also may be partakers of the fruit of the tree of life." We can be immersed and reborn from the amniotic Waters of Life which is the Gift of the Holy Spirit to us, to become spiritual sons and daughters of God, who is, as the Book of Ether testifies, a real, living man:

3:6 And it came to pass that when the brother of Jared had said these words, behold, the Lord stretched forth his hand and touched the stones one by one with his finger. And the veil was taken from off the eyes of the brother of Jared, and he saw the finger of the Lord; and it was as the finger of a man, like unto flesh and blood; and the brother of Jared fell down before the Lord, for he was struck with fear.

7 And the Lord saw that the brother of Jared had fallen to the earth; and the Lord said unto him: Arise, why hast thou fallen?

8 And he saith unto the Lord: I saw the finger of the Lord, and I feared lest he should smite me; for I knew not that the Lord had flesh and blood.

Finally, I see all of these types and images as being powerfully consolidated and clarified in the Temple, echoes of which rebound constantly within the Book of Mormon - for instance in Alma 12's recapitulation of the Plan of Salvation. I just find it a fascinating book.

Edited October 31, 2011 by JeremyOrbe-Smith

[William Schryver]

Jeremy,

I don't agree with all of your perspectives on things, but I agree with a lot of them, and I find myself in accord especially with the part of you that finds Ether 3:6-8 so particularly impressive and full of import. (There are also many things said by both Joseph Smith and Brigham Young that accord well with the heresy [as viewed by sectarian Christianity] that God is a man of flesh; a man of passions; a man who, even if He is not compelled to do so, takes pleasure in existing in time and space and experiencing life in somewhat the same fashion as do we, albeit on a plane of glory [for lack of a better term] that exceeds our powers of comprehension.)

Anyway, I enjoy reading many of your posts, for the simple reason that, even if I don't agree with everything you say, I find your manner of expression satisfying in many ways.

As for the Book of Mormon, I will simply say that its role as the keystone of my religious perspective has never been threatened from the very first time I read it.

-WS

[Loran Blood]

Along came facts that do not fit. The facts that did seem to fit were overwhelmingly outnumbered by the facts that do not.

"Facts?" Here lies, of course, the proverbial rub.

This of course bothered me: truth should be supported by physical evidence.

"Thou shalt not commit adultery." Is this statement "true," and if so, "true" in what sense that could be empirically confirmed?

Is living together outside of the bonds of marriage true or false, as a matter of principle, and how is this to be confirmed of falsified empirically?

How is charity (the pure love of Christ) demonstrated empirically to be a legitimate concept?

In the surviving pieces, the BofM retains a place. I now see it as the sign of Joseph Smith's calling, rather than as a religious history.

This is what could be called "The Hutchinson Syndrome," the end of a process of the replacement of the principle of revelation and the Spirit of Prophecy with mere intellection, together with all its discontents, and the fashioning of the mold in which our own personal golden calf will be cast. The gorilla in the room here, weighing far more than 800lbs, is that the truth of the Church and the restored gospel it represents is set upon the foundation of the Book of Mormon's historicity, just as much as of its specific doctrines. The historicity of the Book of Mormon is its applicability to real human societies and individuals within history in real sociocultural settings, settings that provide real and lived historical patterns and lessons for all societies, including our own. Without that, the BofM becomes a mere theoretical theological treatise, the principles of which stand only as fictional stories bearing gospel teachings in the way there was a "moral" to all of Aesop's fables.

As Nibley always used to point out, it is the real, tangible, historical literalness of the vignettes and conditions recorded in the scriptures that really bother many moderns. We are fine with abstraction, symbol, and allegory, especially when placed in an ancient, far away and long ago setting, but recoil from the thought that any of this really happened, and therefore (as with, particularly, the decline and eventual destruction of entire civilizations), could happen again...to us.The setting of Star Wars "a long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away" allows us to suspend out disbelief in its fundamental premises and take in the story in a "what if?" frame of mind, precisely because it is so far removed from present time and place that that very distance allows us a space in which to settle out disbelief for the duration of the story. What, after all, do we really know about what could have transpired a long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away? The farther away, the more alien, and the more removed from normative experience, the easier it is, psychologically, to accept the fantastic, for a short space of time, within a story bearing real questions of the human condition.

But the Book of Mormon setting, while a long time ago, in lands far from us in our particular neck of the woods, is, precisely, not in any sense alien, far fetched, or fantastic in nature. From the Gaddianton Robbers, to Korihor, to secret combinations, to the political and spiritual forces and dynamics with which the Nephites wrestled, The Book of Mormon is a "witness and a warning" for us in our day precisely because it all actually happened, in cultural cycle after cycle after cycle, to real people, in real societies, under real spiritual, social, economic, and political conditions that are directly relevant to us in the latter days because we are human beings, just as they were, motivated and conditioned by the same spiritual and human forces and influences. Further, nothing in the Book of Mormon, from a sociocultural perspective, is in any way out of the ordinary as matters of the human condition as we understand it within our own cultural context, or within the historical experience of many other known cultures of the past. Precisely, the Book of Mormon is not only a book of theological concepts, but a record of what the living, or failure to live, the teachings of the gospel really means to individuals, and entire societies, through lived experience and cultural history.

Abandon this, and the keystone does, indeed, crumble.

By producing the BofM, Joseph Smith showed that he understood the Bible better than anyone else: he used the BofM to prove his authority to teach everyone else how to follow Christ. Joseph Smith did not teach from the BofM; he used the Bible, and the "revelations" (the D&C).

Joseph never taught from the BofM?

There is very little in the BofM that I find profound enough to make particular use of. Prominently, the two most important to me personally are found in 1st and 2nd Nephi. In 1Ne22:23 he gives the four areas of human temptation, what I like to refer to as "the four pillars of pride": love of popularity, love of material things (getting "gain" or riches), lust for power over others ("over the flesh" or lives of others), and lusts of the flesh. In 2Ne2:11-13 is the greatest explanation of why opposition must be that I have found in literature.

No, nothing except the rise, decline, and eventual fall of entire societies and the clear lessions to be absorbed regarding the reasons for such rise,decline and fall as explained and witnessed by the prophets who were eyewitness observers of those societies as well as authorized servants of the Lord who understood the spiritual roots of such sociological phenomena.

I invite anyone else who has bothered to read this OP, to share what they retain from the BofM as life-defining truths: I welcome both believing Mormons and anyone else who has been one, or has read the BofM and remembers profound insights gleaned from it....

The words of President Ezra Taft Bensen are appropos here, with a few bolded portions for emphasis:

The Book of Mormon was written for us today. God is the author of the book. It is a record of a fallen people, compiled by inspired men for our blessing. Those people never had the book—it was meant for us. Mormon, the ancient prophet after whom the book is named, abridged centuries of records. God, who knows the end from the beginning, told him what to include in his abridgment that we would need for our day. Mormon turned the records over to his son Moroni, the last recorder; and Moroni, writing over 1,500 years ago but speaking to us today, states: “Behold, I speak unto you as if ye were present, and yet ye are not. But behold, Jesus Christ hath shown you unto me, and I know your doing.

Ahh...all that terrible literalness...

Edited October 31, 2011 by Loran Blood

[Loran Blood]

treyyrt

Edited October 31, 2011 by Loran Blood

[Loran Blood]

Joseph Smith, for example, taught that God judges people against the light that they have, not against some absolute standard.

Not quite. God judges us against the light they have relative to the absolute standard, which must exist for the concept of light they have to make any sense at all. The light we have is a portion of a totality, or whole

Edited October 31, 2011 by Loran Blood

[Nathair/|\]

To list all the wonderful, rich, compelling, beautiful things in the Book of Mormon would likely take more server space than this board has available and would take years to compile, so I'll just list a few favorites that haven't been mentioned.

Since I was a child, I have always loved Captain Moroni. I love how all he cared about was preserving the liberty of his people and how he was willing to stand up to anybody to do it. When I get the chance, I intend to have the Title of Liberty engraved on my sword. I love his boldness, his creativity, his ability to inspire. I even love when he lets his temper run away with him. Like Mudcat's story in social hall, it's always for the best of reasons.

I love Enos, how he exemplifies charity and the love he shows even for those who were trying to kill him and his family and people.

I love the Tree of Life story. It so effectively embodies the plan of salvation and the nature of mortality.

I love Samuel the Laminate and how often the supposed "bad guys" are more righteous than the "good guys" and often only act wickedly because of the leadership of Nephites.

I guess that's enough for now.

Yours under the oaks of greatest worth,

Nathair /|\

[Loran Blood]

I was an atheist before I was Mormon; it is, I believe, one of the only living religions I could belong to. (There are dead religions which I might be able to, but they're seen as "mythology" by most modern folk.) Most of the life-defining truths I find the Book of Mormon have to do with the Tree of Life, the Divine Council, and the physically embodied nature of God, which utterly overturns a great deal of western philosophy and gives me hope that me and family and friends might just have a chance of getting out of this world alive.

I'm not quite sure Jeremy, but do you have a personal witness of the truth of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints and the "restored" gospel it represents, or is it for you more a relative point, or frame of reference, from which you derive a body of what you consider to be valuable insights and principles, but which is not for you "the truth" in a systematic, holistic way?

(As a caveat, I do recognize that I maintain what is currently seen as an idiosyncratic interpretation of the Book of Mormon that might be uncomfortable for more conservative members [though I hope as time passes that it will come to be seen as more mainstream]).

You sound a bit like a much more civil and restrained version of some other people I know who also wish the Church could be reframed and restructured more in their own image.

Specifically, because I suspect that the Holy Spirit is female,

Utterly inconsistent with the revelations, of course.

I see the Book of Mormon as being, essentially, an extremely important preservation of the Wisdom tradition in which the Goddess is associated with the Tree of Life. For instance, 2 Nephi 21:1 quotes Isaiah: "And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a branch shall grow out of his roots. And the Spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him, the pirit of [W]isdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord."

The nearly-constant admonition of the Book of Mormon is to always remember the gifts of the Holy Spirit and walk in Wisdom's Paths; with the addition of Enoch in the Pearl of Great Price, I think the Book of Mormon is absolutely indispensable because it preserves a place for Lady Wisdom, which Enoch warned would be lost. ("And they shall contend one with another; and their priests shall contend one with another, and they shall teach with their learning, and deny the Holy Ghost, which giveth utterance." - 2 Nephi 28:4)

Why is all the subtle and distended intellectual cleverness necessary? Is the fact that in ancient Middle Eastern/Semitic religion, wisdom is always personified as female a logical license to feminize the Holy Spirit (who, in The Ascencion of Isaiah, Isaiah, in the culmination of his Celestial ascent and tour of the heavents, sees the Holy Spirit as a separate personage, standing to the left of the Father and Christ and who is then identified in the terms, "Worship Him, for He is the angel of the Holy Spirit, who speaketh in thee and the rest of the righteous."

2 Nephi's 2:25 teaching that "Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy" is therefore a complete reversal of most of the western world's view of mankind as depraved wormlike sinners, which is something an old humanist like me simply adores.

Which they many times can be, and are, unless they "put off the natural man" and "becometh a saint..."

All well and good, and yet, outside the Kingdom of God, although there is much truth to be had, the wheat and chaff are deeply and many times very subtly intertwined, and although inspiration is sometimes well in evidence, direct, authoritative revelation of the mind and will of the Lord is not. That takes restoration - and prophets.

(I love Brigham Young's discourses on this: "Such a plan incorporates every system of true doctrine on the earth, whether it be ecclesiastical, moral, philosophical, or civil; it incorporates all good laws that have been made from the days of Adam until now; it swallows up the laws of nations, for it exceeds them all in knowledge and purity, it circumscribes the doctrines of the day, and takes from the right and the left, and brings all truth together in one system, and leaves the chaff to be scattered hither and thither [DBY, 3–4]."

But note that all of these elements are ultimately subsumed within the restored gospel itself - Zion - and cannot remain within the apostate religous/philosophical systems of which they are a part, and be as valuable as they would be once extracted from those systems and refined/clarified by gospel principles. As systems, all of these will tend, to one degree or another, to ultimately move us away from our Heavenly Father and from his true church and Kingdom, even though the truths these systems contain, once decocted from the false human system as a whole, and, as Brigham Young would have said, "brought to Zion," from being scattered and dispersed throughtout the religions, mythologies, and philosophical perspectives of the world, can be integrated into the gospel as valuable variations on fumdamental true themes.

There' s only one really safe place, and that is in following the Lord's living oracles and in holding tightly to the Iron Rod. Decocting the truths and insights from the multitude of sources and traditions around us is a useful and important aspect of living the gospel and aquireing futher light and knowedge, but salvation and exaltation are available only within the Kingdom and Church Jesus Christ has authorized, appointed, and clarified as his own.

Edited October 31, 2011 by Loran Blood

[William Schryver]

(/snip/ quote of bulk of post--for brevity's sake)

Ahh...all that terrible literalness...

Good post, Loran.

[William Schryver]

I'm not quite sure Jeremy, but do you have a personal witness of the truth of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints and the "restored" gospel it represents, or is it for you more a relative point, or frame of reference, from which you derive a body of what you consider to be valuable insights and principles, but which is not for you "the truth" in a systematic, holistic way?

Hey, like I said above, I may not agree with Jeremy when it comes to every thing in which he expresses a belief. But my impression has certainly been that he has a personal witness of the restored gospel. And, in these days, given some of the really "out there" heterodoxy that is gaining traction among the Saints, I'm not inclined to send a whole lot of criticism Jeremy's way. Is the Holy Ghost female? To tell you the truth, I don't even think about it at all. I couldn't care less. I do know that the wisest people in my life are female, but I don't draw any inferences from that when it comes to my relationship with the Holy Ghost. As a husband to an extraordinary wife and the father to three fabulous daughters, I'm a big fan of the feminine (notwithstanding the vicious propaganda that has and continues to be circulated in relation to my alleged "misogyny"). I do confess that I hold the female of the species in such high regard that I find it particularly offensive when a female becomes wicked and a purveyor and promoter of wickedness.

That said, I couldn't care less if Jeremy wants to view the Holy Ghost as a feminine presence. So what? To my knowledge, he's not promoting the notion; not preaching it from the pulpit; not advocating for it in Sunday School or Elders Quorum meeting. It is a speculative idea, for sure. We all have our favorite little speculations. Big deal. I, for one, have been favorably impressed with what I would term the "totality" of Jeremy's postures towards the restored gospel. Sure, I have no doubt I will yet disagree with him on one point or another, but I have seen nothing, so far, in his public pronouncements that I find particularly worthy of censure.

Edited October 31, 2011 by William Schryver

[Loran Blood]

Good post, Loran.

Good to see you here, Will. I've missed your participation here of late.

Into the breech!

[Loran Blood]

Hey, like I said above, I may not agree with Jeremy when it comes to every thing in which he expresses a belief. But my impression has certainly been that he has a personal witness of the restored gospel. And, in these days, given some of the really "out there" heterodoxy that is gaining traction among the Saints, I'm not inclined to send a whole lot of criticism Jeremy's way. Is the Holy Ghost female? To tell you the truth, I don't even think about it at all. I couldn't care less. I do know that the wisest people in my life are female, but I don't draw any inferences from that when it comes to my relationship with the Holy Ghost. As a husband to an extraordinary wife and the father to three fabulous daughters, I'm a big fan of the feminine (notwithstanding the vicious propaganda that has and continues to be circulated in relation to my alleged "misogyny"). I do confess that I hold the female of the species in such high regard that I find it particularly offensive when a female becomes wicked and a purveyor and promoter of wickedness.

That said, I couldn't care less if Jeremy wants to view the Holy Ghost as a feminine presence. So what? To my knowledge, he's not promoting the notion; not preaching it from the pulpit; not advocating for it in Sunday School or Elders Quorum meeting. It is a speculative idea, for sure. We all have our favorite little speculations. Big deal. I, for one, have been favorably impressed with what I would term the "totality" of Jeremy's postures towards the restored gospel. Sure, I have no doubt I will yet disagree with him on one point or another, but I have seen nothing, so far, in his public pronouncements that I find particularly worthy of censure.

That pestiferous LDS heterodoxy perhaps has me a bit sensitized to its presence in any discussion. Perhaps, like my PC meeter, my LDS neo-orthodoxy meeter is calibrated to register even the minutest tremors. I'm sure Jeremy himself will weigh in here soon. I should make clear my attempt was not to interrogate him in a hostile manner (although I've found that my disagreements with much of what he says is fairly substantial).