Why does life make it so hard to trust God?

[smac97]

28 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Quote

You will have all kinds of trials to pass through. And it is quite as necessary for you to be tried as it was for Abraham and other men of God, and ... God will feel after you, and He will take hold of you and wrench your very heart strings, and if you cannot stand it you will not be fit for an inheritance in the Celestial Kingdom of God.” (Joseph Smith}

I used to love this quote. I came to feel differently about it. So my honest, and not taunting question to you is, why? Why would a loving God test and try us, intentionally intentionally, in such a way in order to inherit the celestial glory? Why? 

I think for the same reason I, as a husband and father, have felt what seems to be both A) the apex of the human experience and B) some of the greatest challenges of my entire life.  That is, these things are part of a plan, and they are worth the effort.  "Men are, that they might have joy" has long resonated with me, as has D&C 121:

7 My son, peace be unto thy soul; thine adversity and thine afflictions shall be but a small moment;
8 And then, if thou endure it well, God shall exalt thee on high; thou shalt triumph over all thy foes.

28 minutes ago, Teancum said:

It seems cruel to me. Would any of us intentionally inflict such suffering on one of our children?

No.  I lack the knowledge and wisdom and perspective to do so.  Heavenly Father, being both omniscient and omnibenevolent, is situated to do what is described in Mosiah 3:19:

For the natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam, and will be, forever and ever, unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, and putteth off the natural man and becometh a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord, and becometh as a child, submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Teancum]

29 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

I keep returning to this.  It squeezes a fundamental question I have often- is there room to be faithful and not expect anything at all from God? In fact for me it seems to be the only way. 
I find life to be woefully unfair - both in my favor and otherwise.  None of it makes any sense and it threatens to erode my faith at times.  
after life promises do nothing to motivate me.  
if I can instead trust that God exists and loves me and hears me and loves me and is at the root of all that man chooses to do that is good, then I can enjoy the occasional if not oft glimmer of greatness and beauty I can thoroughly enjoy and recognize that he is at the root of that, if not the cause . 

I used to be able to do that. Radical acceptance. Abrahamic trials. It eventually broke for me.

[MustardSeed]

4 minutes ago, Teancum said:

I used to be able to do that. Radical acceptance. Abrahamic trials. It eventually broke for me.

I’m sorry. 

[smac97]

59 minutes ago, Teancum said:

I like the idea that not all events are attributable to a God being. But the idea that he sent us here to be tested while causing us to forget everything I find much more difficult to accept.

I think the "Veil of Forgetfulness" is a necessary component of our mortal experiential use of agency.  It's not much of a quiz if the teacher writes the answers on the whiteboard beforehand.

59 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Quote

Vicissitudes of Life.  The natural, unpredictable ups and downs, shifts in fortune, and alternating phases of good and bad experiences that every person encounters.  My dad, when discussing such things, would sometimes conclude with a shrug as "Well, that's all a part of living in a Telestial World."  His implication was not fatalism, but rather that we can and will find a better place of peace and rest, but that meanwhile we do our part as best we can, and repent along the way.

Yet such tings are so grossly unfair. You and I were born into abundance and thank God for our food.

Quite true.  Unfairness is a key "Living in a Telestial World" component.

59 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Others, they were born into a place where food may be hard to come by.  How is the randomness of fair is God loves all his children eqiually? 

I can't speak as to the perspective that allows us to definitively ascertain what is "random" and what is the result of choice and/or purpose, at least not with any real degree of certainty.

I inherited many blessings because of the efforts of my parents.  I can identify causal links between what they did for me as a child and where I am today.  From there I extrapolate.  My parents did their job well not because they were perfect, but because the precepts by which they lived and raised us were sound.  I am now nearly 30 years into being a husband and father, and I have a greater appreciation of their efforts.  Again: Remembrance.  Gratitude.  Humility.  These help me cope with difficult times.

59 minutes ago, Teancum said:

I think your daed was born into a place where he could easily be a bit flippant about it. And I do not mean that as an insult.

No worries.  I really don't think he was being flippant, but rather philosophical.  He could have just as easily concluded those discussions with a shrug and "Yeah, well, we are each, as Doctor Strange put it, a 'tiny, momentary speck within an indifferent universe.'  Hobbes was right: life really is 'nasty, brutish, and short.'  There is nothing after we die.  In the end, we have no real meaning or purpose or value."

I am glad he did not say such things.

59 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Good things if you want to continue to believe in God.

Yes.  We all have the option.

There are things that are beyond my control, and there are things that are within my control.  Faith in God is, for me, very much in the latter category.

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited Friday at 10:13 PM by smac97

[let’s roll]

33 minutes ago, Teancum said:

I used to love this quote. I came to feel differently about it. So my honest, and not taunting question to you is, why? Why would a loving God test and try us, intentionally intentionally, in such a way in order to inherit the celestial glory? Why?  It seems cruel to me. Would any of us intentionally inflict such suffering on one of our children?

Think of what God does.  He has said He wants us to join Him in that work.  Is that work I want to do?  Am I preparing myself to do it?  Could I, in doing that work honor agency?  Stand by as some of my children are murdered, raped and abused?  

The rest of God is the peace and assurance of Daniel in the lion’s den, of Shadrack and his companions in the fiery furnace, and yes, the peace and assurance of Abinidi as he burned to death and Jesus as He died on the cross.  Mortality provides the chance to find His rest.

Finding and maintaining that rest doesn’t make agency less messy but provides perspective, eternal perspective.  Knowing that Christ experienced deeper pain and grief than I, or anyone else, will ever experience doesn’t necessarily lessen our pain, but demonstrates that the eternal glory He achieved despite that pain and suffering is available to me, and all of us as well.  

[Teancum]

11 minutes ago, smac97 said:

I think the "Veil of Forgetfulness" is a necessary component of our mortal experiential use of agency.  It's not much of a quiz if the teacher writes the answers on the whiteboard beforehand.

Quite true.  Unfairness is a key "Living in a Telestial World" component.

I can't speak as to the perspective that allows us to definitively ascertain what is "random" and what is the result of choice and/or purpose, at least not with any real degree of certainty.

I inherited many blessings because of the efforts of my parents.  I can identify causal links between what they did for me as a child and where I am today.  From there I extrapolate.  My parents did their job well not because they were perfect, but because the precepts by which they lived and raised us were sound.  I am now nearly 30 years into being a husband and father, and I have a greater appreciation of their efforts.  Again: Remembrance.  Gratitude.  Humility.  These help me cope with difficult times.

No worries.  I really don't think he was being flippant, but rather philosophical.  He could just as easily concluded those discussions with a shrug and "Yeah, well, we are each, as Doctor Strange put it, a 'tiny, momentary speck within an indifferent universe.'  Hobbes was right: life really is 'nasty, brutish, and short.'  There is nothing after we die.  In the end, we have no real meaning or purpose or value."

I am glad he did not say such things.

Yes.  We all have the option.

There are things that are beyond my control, and there are things that are within my control.  Faith in God is, for me, very much in the latter category.

Thanks,

-Smac

I appreciate your thoughtful comments. I have more thoughts but I have grandkids here and pizza is on its way! 😁

[The Nehor]

18 minutes ago, let’s roll said:

Think of what God does.  He has said He wants us to join Him in that work.  Is that work I want to do?  Am I preparing myself to do it?  Could I, in doing that work honor agency?  Stand by as some of my children are murdered, raped and abused?  

Not just stand by. Deliberately put them in harm’s way and then not intervene. An active choice not to intervene.

Good point, I don’t want to do that work. That is sick. If that is the highest righteousness then the laws of the cosmos I live in are depraved and sick.

The hero of Omelas isn’t to be found in the ones who walk away. It is the person who hopefully one day goes in and rescues the suffering child and lets Omelas burn it that is the result.

18 minutes ago, let’s roll said:

The rest of God is the peace and assurance of Daniel in the lion’s den, of Shadrack and his companions in the fiery furnace, and yes, the peace and assurance of Abinidi as he burned to death and Jesus as He died on the cross.  Mortality provides the chance to find His rest.

We find God’s rest in suffering and death. That is really screwed up.

18 minutes ago, let’s roll said:

Finding and maintaining that rest doesn’t make agency less messy but provides perspective, eternal perspective.  Knowing that Christ experienced deeper pain and grief than I, or anyone else, will ever experience doesn’t necessarily lessen our pain, but demonstrates that the eternal glory He achieved despite that pain and suffering is available to me, and all of us as well.  

I don’t find the idea that someone suffered more than me edifying anymore. I can be grateful to someone who suffered more but it seems like God’s highest honor is to suffer and die for Him. A God of Martyrdom and Pain. Why do I want to be like this guy? Then my eternal reward is to allow the suffering of my own children forever and ever because that is the only way to find happiness and eventually get to do the same to my grandchildren? What kind of screwed up MLM is this?

Excuse me, I would like off of the ride now please!

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

The death of a child through disease or natural disaster is, I think, generally more difficult to process than when a child dies through the known bad acts of a known person.  Thomas Hobbes said that, without government and society, we would face "continual fear and danger of violent death" and find life to be be "solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short."  It think this observation would apply with similar utility to heavenly government and society.  I can choose nihilism, or I can choose the Plan of Salvation.  Both require faith, but the latter both brings much solace and joy and hope and also makes a lot of sense to me.  I just can't bring myself to, in the end, embrace the notion that there is no purpose or meaning in life, that this is all there is, that good things and bad things are all just matters of happenstance, and that there is nothing when we die.

I don’t accept the false dichotomy that there is a binary choice between God’s plan and embracing nihilism. Most atheists aren’t nihilists. Just because Hobbes had a negative take on people doesn’t mean I have to. And Hobbes ignores the fact that humans have always had societies and some form of government even if it was more informal so when did that nihilistic take apply?

Edited Friday at 10:41 PM by The Nehor

[Calm]

4 hours ago, Teancum said:

But the idea that he sent us here to be tested while causing us to forget everything I find much more difficult to accept.

The forget makes sense to me if part of mortality is about us learning to understand the difference between God’s influence and our own nature.  I came to this idea by remembering what it was like to grow up in my home with a father who came across as if it never even occurred to him to ask himself if he was sure about something.  Not domineering so much as just purely dominant by his simple existence. It helped he was extremely capable in most things and the stuff he wasn’t (dealing with emotions) wasn’t something we had language for until much older.  That apparently inherent confidence gave us kids a very strong sense of stability and security even though Mom’s situation was all over the place due to her health.  After leaving home, I figured out how truly dependent and responsive I was to that aura of certainty/rightness/authority that oozed from his pores.  I have both never truly trusted in my own decisions as well as also having a similar sense of certainty, so I am probably not great at judging my own ideas even if emotionally I am very confident I am much more clear sighted than the average person (my parents did teach us to be self critical in a good way, so that adds to my confidence, but I have seen the outcome of arrogant confidence, so very leery of certainty…iow, it’s complicated).

Back to God…if a mortal, very limited, and error prone human can have that type of impact on less emotionally and intellectually mature humans, then my guess is even just memories of the impact of God on us would be overwhelming.  They would be essentially so ‘loud’, that the noise of our own feelings and ideas would be lost.  Only by extreme dampening of his presence, or rather our awareness of his presence, can we assert our own individuality.  And even here our internal voice can get swallowed up by the the overwhelming or the oppressive voices surrounding us, whether individual or communal.

Edited Saturday at 01:16 AM by Calm

[smac97]

5 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Quote

The death of a child through disease or natural disaster is, I think, generally more difficult to process than when a child dies through the known bad acts of a known person.  Thomas Hobbes said that, without government and society, we would face "continual fear and danger of violent death" and find life to be be "solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short."  It think this observation would apply with similar utility to heavenly government and society.  I can choose nihilism, or I can choose the Plan of Salvation.  Both require faith, but the latter both brings much solace and joy and hope and also makes a lot of sense to me.  I just can't bring myself to, in the end, embrace the notion that there is no purpose or meaning in life, that this is all there is, that good things and bad things are all just matters of happenstance, and that there is nothing when we die.

I don’t accept the false dichotomy that there is a binary choice between God’s plan and embracing nihilism. Most atheists aren’t nihilists. Just because Hobbes had a negative take on people doesn’t mean I have to. And Hobbes ignores the fact that humans have always had societies and some form of government even if it was more informal so when did that nihilistic take apply?

You are right that I put it as a choice, and that atheism and nihilism are not synonymous. I was not describing that. I was describing the choice I can actually live with.

I do not think the only alternatives on offer to the world are the Plan of Salvation and despair. People find meaning in family, work, beauty, and one another, and I do not need Hobbes to be right about human nature to take that seriously. What I cannot do is treat the death of a child as nothing but an event. Disease and disaster do not have a face. A person who harms a child does. Both are terrible. One of them leaves me asking not only what happened, but what it is for, and whether the child is finished.

Hobbes was describing life without a commonwealth, not proving that such a life ever existed in pure form. You are right that people have always lived in some society. I was using him for a narrower point. A society can reduce the fear of violent death. It cannot tell me that a child who died of disease is anything other than gone. That is the part I cannot settle by politics or by goodwill.

So the dichotomy was mine. Nihilism, as I meant it, is the conclusion that there is no purpose in the loss, no continuation, and no one to whom the child still matters. I do not have to accuse you of holding that. I only know that, when I follow the question all the way out, that is the place I refuse to stop. The Plan of Salvation is the account that lets me say the child is not finished, and that the loss is real without being the last word. That is faith. It is also the only account I have found that I can hold without going cold.

Thank you for sharing your perspective.

-Smac

Edited Saturday at 03:46 AM by smac97

[california boy]

i have lived approximately half my life in the Church doing all I was told God wanted me to do.  Trying diligently to live a life that I was told God expected me to do.  But in so many ways, it was not a life I enjoyed or wanted.  When I came out and was severed from the Church, I felt loss and confused.  It was like starting the second half of my life all over again, but this time without the Church and a much less structured life of what I was taught God wanted me to do. 

From where I sit now, I sometimes can not believe how much happier I am and really how joyous my life has become.  Certainly finding a companion who I can love completely and who loves me for who I really am and not some forced false version of me.  If the scripture that teaches wickedness never was happiness, then it is so difficult for me to think that I am some how more wicked than I was and still be so much more joyful.

I learned to not trust God.  He seems ok with that as well.  Maybe the true test in life is to learn to stand on my own two feet, be responsible for my life and not rely on a God that was not all that consistent in giving me any help in solving what I thought was flaws in my spirit.  Turns out, acceptance of reality seems to work better than pretending that God has all the answers.  

[Tony uk]

9 hours ago, Teancum said:

How do you distinguish this feeling of God's presence from any other emotional response? Is there something that makes what you felt different or special from normal emotional reactions?

A specific sense of peace and calm.

[Tony uk]

9 hours ago, Teancum said:

Seems like a lop sided relationship.

Loving God as our heavenly Father, and trusting that he will at some point do what is right, for us his earthly children. I do not believe to be lop sided.

[Teancum]

8 hours ago, Tony uk said:

A specific sense of peace and calm.

How is this different though from say a walk in the woods or a hike to a mountain top that generates a sense of peace and calm?

[Tony uk]

2 minutes ago, Teancum said:

How is this different though from say a walk in the woods or a hike to a mountain top that generates a sense of peace and calm?

The peace and calm that I feel from the presence of God, is more of a spiritual inner feeling. Rather than a general peace of calm, that I would feel from a walk in the woods or hike up a mountain.

[Kenngo1969]

I'll warn you in advance that I know this is all going to seem too trite, too pat, and too "just-so."  I wouldn't blame anyone for getting frustrated with me because of that.  I have discussed the litany of challenges I have experienced many times here.  I won't bore you by reciting it, at least, not in full and not in detail, again.  I am aware, fully and acutely, that many have and do experience challenges I can scarsely fathom.  Those who endure, and who have endured, what I scarsely can fathom and who retain a long-range/eternal perspective have my everlasting respect.  That said, I can only speak to what I know.

Premature birth, highly questionable survival as a newborn, permanent mortal disability, two failed major operations (among several others) that set me back, in some ways permanently at least until the resurrection, to which I say, "Hasten the day!"   But ... I suppose not.  As Alma the Younger said, "But behold, I am a man, and do sin in my wish; for I ought to be content with the things which the Lord hath allotted unto me."  Alma 29:3.  I have labors to perform in the garden of life, for how long I know not, to what purpose, often, I know not.  Spectacularly failed professional aspirations, and the only answer I've ever gotten as to "why" is, "Ken, you were where I wanted you while you were getting the degree." 

The "dog" of clinical depression alternating between nipping at my heels and threatening to devour me whole—until, mercifully, it simply ... stopped chasing me.  I have no idea how or why that happened.  I know only that, ultimately, it had nothing to do with more professionals with more brooms than I can count striving earnestly to  help me "chase the bats from my belfry."  They simply ... left.   Is it something that simply comes with advancing age and wisdom to know to "not sweat the small stuff"—and to know that most all of it is "small stuff"?  With wisdom to know to "not get caught up in the thick of thin things"—and to know that most all of them are "thin things"?

Someday, sometime in the [too? not too?] distant future, I look forward to a fascinating, illuminating, Personal Priesthood Interview with Someone Who Knows All of the Whys and Wherefores that, as yet, I do not.  As for why He hasn't told me yet, I have no reason to believe He won't—when He thinks I'm ready ("Ay, there's the rub!").  Have I simply gotten more adept at transferring more of the burden to Him whose yoke He invited me to take upon myself (see Matthew 11:28-30)?  Perhaps.  Incidentally, recently, I came to a epiphany regarding that scripture.  Perhaps it would make all of you more insightful folks slap your foreheads and exclaim, "Duh, Ken!": Christ isn't asking us to take on an additional burden in that scripture.  He is offering to shoulder ours!  After all, isn't that what a yoke does, enabling animals to do far more together than either would be able to do alone.

In a sense, the three-act—premortal, mortal, postmortal—play isn't fair because we don't remember the premortal first act, and the postmortal third act hasn't happened yet.  Others' mileage may, and likely does, vary, and that's fine.  I understand that completely.  But I trust The Playwright.  What else can I do?   

 

Edited 14 hours ago by Kenngo1969
Corrected a minor misspelling.

[Notatbm]

19 hours ago, The Nehor said:

How do you fully expect the best and all kinds of miracles and then shift to a kind of resigned stoicism and then go back to optimistic expectations? Wouldn’t just a more moderate realism be more palatable than advocating for a roller coaster ride.

I sincerely envy the people I see in Church (and elsewhere) that can seem convinced the best will happen and then it very often doesn’t and then in the next situation they seem to think the best will happen again.

HOW DOES THAT BRAND OF OPTIMISM SURVIVE BEING ALMOST PERPETUALLY WRONG?

This comes to mind as an explanation:

“Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.”

 

[Kenngo1969]

18 hours ago, Teancum said:

I appreciate your thoughtful comments. I have more thoughts but I have grandkids here and pizza is on its way! 😁

I'm glad you have your priorities straight!     (Seriously, though: Good for you.  I hope you and the grands enjoyed your day!) 

[ManyHobbies]

On 10/9/2026 at 9:30 AM, bluebell said:

So now when someone says 'Trust God with the outcome' you don't hear comfort.  You hear:  Anything can happen and if it does, you have to find a way to call it good.   

I'm struggling a lot with this right now. I can absolutely see the hand of God guiding my life in numerous ways, but I'm definitely unhappy with the place that I've been guided to. 

It is really hard to deal with the idea that God's plan for you includes major disappointments that won't be fixed in this life, or that God is putting you through suffering that feels completely unnecessary or pointless. Or that God will block your efforts to improve your situation or is withholding good things from you that He freely gives to other people, because it's all part of God's plan for you. 

The idea that God would cause a bad situation to come to you, and there is nothing that you could have done to avoid it because it's God's will, is hard to deal with. I'm right there now. I do take a little consolation in the idea that if God put this bad thing in my life, then I am not responsible for causing it. I am still responsible for working through it, but I can exonerate myself of the responsibility for causing it. 

I completely get the trust issue. You can completely trust God, and your worst fears can still come true. You can give your life and your will over to God and still end up in the exactly the bad situation that you didn't want to end up in. 

I don't have a good answer. What I am doing right now is trying to frame it as the idea that I have to go through this bad situation whether I want to or not, and that at some point, it will be over. I'm even past the point where I would ask what I can learn from it or what God is trying to teach me. I just know that at some point, the situation will be over, because no season lasts forever. That's the best I can do with it right now. 

 

 

[MustardSeed]

2 hours ago, ManyHobbies said:

I'm even past the point where I would ask what I can learn from it or what God is trying to teach me. I just know that at some point, the situation will be over, because no season lasts forever.

I don’t know that there is any doctrine that supports the idea that God creates hardships for the purpose of teaching a specific lesson.  I know our Sunday language suggests that but I really don’t know that anything backs that up? 

[Rain]

5 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

I don’t know that there is any doctrine that supports the idea that God creates hardships for the purpose of teaching a specific lesson.  I know our Sunday language suggests that but I really don’t know that anything backs that up? 

I have rarely had trouble trusting God and I think it is because the idea of God creating hardships for us never rang true to me. It's just not how I have ever felt or known parents to work.  I mean there are some specific occasions like if your child wants to gain muscles you might hand him a heavier weight, but the majority of time I think just being mortal and living in an imperfect world throws you enough hardships that a parent or Heavenly Father doesn't need to give you more. 

Now I have had a hard time trusting that God is all powerful because he allows so much pain because I did trust him, but now that I have let go of him being all powerful and feel that he is not able to help all the time I no longer struggle with that.

[let’s roll]

On 10/9/2026 at 4:32 PM, The Nehor said:

We find God’s rest in suffering and death. That is really screwed up.

As I was suffering after being told my youngest son would never speak and have the intellect of a five year old for his entire life, I found comfort in the rest of God.  Was that screwed up? 
 

The 30+ years since have prove the doctors’ prognosis to be accurate, but in those 30+ years the rest of God has both given me peace and taught me the truth of the scriptural teaching that God allows physical and emotional challenges that His grace may be made manifest.  There are scores of people who can testify of eternal insight they have received as a result of my son’s life, a life those not aware of His rest might characterize as unfair or tragic.

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, let’s roll said:

As I was suffering after being told my youngest son would never speak and have the intellect of a five year old for his entire life, I found comfort in the rest of God.  Was that screwed up? 

I was talking about that specific kind of eternal rest. I was not conflating it with finding consolation in something in this life. I am glad for almost anything that alleviates suffering. There is already far too much of it.

1 hour ago, let’s roll said:

The 30+ years since have prove the doctors’ prognosis to be accurate, but in those 30+ years the rest of God has both given me peace and taught me the truth of the scriptural teaching that God allows physical and emotional challenges that His grace may be made manifest.  There are scores of people who can testify of eternal insight they have received as a result of my son’s life, a life those not aware of His rest might characterize as unfair or tragic.

I don’t what minimize what you have gained.

I do have a hard time accepting that God’s grace can only be manifest by pouring out suffering everywhere. The idea that humans must be broken in order to learn has a heroic bend to it and overcoming struggles is aspirational. I just find that grace less impressive when the consolation comes from the person who inflicted the suffering in the first place. Or at least allowed it to happen though with an omniscient and omnipotent being I have a very hard time determining a distinction between allowing and acting as both are direct choices made.

This is the only way? The best way? Really? It also makes me shudder. If opposition in all things is some unending principle I have little reason to believe suffering and the like will stop in some future state where all will be made right. If the opposition matches the power of the person we might even expect it to get much worse.

[The Nehor]

On 10/9/2026 at 7:13 PM, smac97 said:

You are right that I put it as a choice, and that atheism and nihilism are not synonymous. I was not describing that. I was describing the choice I can actually live with.

I do not think the only alternatives on offer to the world are the Plan of Salvation and despair. People find meaning in family, work, beauty, and one another, and I do not need Hobbes to be right about human nature to take that seriously. What I cannot do is treat the death of a child as nothing but an event. Disease and disaster do not have a face. A person who harms a child does. Both are terrible. One of them leaves me asking not only what happened, but what it is for, and whether the child is finished.

Hobbes was describing life without a commonwealth, not proving that such a life ever existed in pure form. You are right that people have always lived in some society. I was using him for a narrower point. A society can reduce the fear of violent death. It cannot tell me that a child who died of disease is anything other than gone. That is the part I cannot settle by politics or by goodwill.

So the dichotomy was mine. Nihilism, as I meant it, is the conclusion that there is no purpose in the loss, no continuation, and no one to whom the child still matters. I do not have to accuse you of holding that. I only know that, when I follow the question all the way out, that is the place I refuse to stop. The Plan of Salvation is the account that lets me say the child is not finished, and that the loss is real without being the last word. That is faith. It is also the only account I have found that I can hold without going cold.

Thank you for sharing your perspective.

-Smac

I get wanting to hold onto that but while in many ways not brave to eternal struggles (as evidenced in this thread) I do have a strong thirst for knowledge and one thing I learned in a very harsh manner is sometimes the facts don’t match what I want them to. I would like to believe there is a simple or even complex solution to human conflict but as I studied history I didn’t find any way out of the constant conflicts between humans. They are baked into the world we live in. More recently I don’t like that I can’t find any good reason to trust God and have begun to doubt He exists at all. In fact in some ways I hope He doesn’t. If a lot of what His character in scripture is shown as is accurate I don’t trust Him at all and don’t want to live in a world he runs. I am still open to God somehow reaching out to help but am also terrified if He does as it will almost certainly involve breaking me in multiple ways because that seems to be how it works.

Then again i think I could cope with a Telestial eternity if He just for the most part leaves us alone. Then again annihilation on death doesn’t carry the same fear for me that it used to. If that is the end then being dead will probably be a lot like what it was before I was born and that wasn’t so bad.

I would rather the child not be finished but my wishes mean little in the face of cold reality.

[manol]

On 10/9/2026 at 4:34 PM, MustardSeed said:

... I also get being in a mindset where every day seems to have miracles in it - you do find what you seek.   [emphasis manol's]

^^This^^ has been true for me.  For better or for worse, I tend to see what I'm looking for... one implication being that, to a certain extent, I am my own jailer; but on the other hand, the key is in my own pocket. 

If I give my intellect (limited as it may be) the task of finding all the injustices a decent God would never have allowed and/or could have prevented, my intellect will deliver in abundance.  I have not found that to be the path of greatest light for me.  But it may well be for someone else - who am I to judge?  Perhaps the brightest path for some is to make sure that God (or at least what we've been led to believe about God) gets called out for not living up to expectations.  If that is what works for you, carry on!

Personally, I think Viktor Frankl figured this stuff out.  Here are a few relevant quotes: 

"Forces beyond your control can take away everything you possess except one thing, your freedom to choose how you will respond to the situation."

"Between stimulus and response there is a space. In that space is our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and our freedom."

"Our greatest freedom is the freedom to choose our attitude."

Here's another take on the same basic concept, that of claiming and acting upon our freedom to choose our response and our attitude in the face of whatever circumstances present, this time not from a concentration-camp survivor but from a zombie:

"Choose love in spite of all you see in the world. Choose love regardless of what you're going through. It does not matter how much you're suffering, the choice for love is still there. It never goes away despite any circumstance, despite any temperature in the world, despite any war, despite any famine, despite how wealthy you are, despite how happy you are, how sad you are, how depressed you are, the choice to remember to choose love never ever goes away. Regardless of whether the world is perfect or is going through the absolute fires of who knows what, the choice is still there. Be strong enough to make that choice. That's what it's about, to make [that choice] regardless." - near-death experiencer Jonathan Ashford

That is what I aspire to, and I have a very long ways to go.

Edited to add:  This morning my YouTube feed fed me this short video, I have no idea who this guy is, but his message is to deliberately choose one's focus rather than trying to battle one's mind over every single thought.  It's an imo very practical application of what @MustardSeed said, namely that we do find what we seek.  Here it is, cued up to his core message, which he gets across in less than a minute and a half: 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dp9lIUHWyFc&t=263s

 

Edited yesterday at 05:06 PM by manol