Shooting at church in Grand Blanc Michigan. Pray

[bsjkki]

I have seen a lot of people defending us and telling people to knock it off today too. There is hope. Can’t lump everyone into the same bucket. 
 

Heard from my friend. She is in shock. There are people missing. 

[Chum]

Perp lived in Jeremy Ranch, Utah in 2010.

Quote

For roughly a year around 2010, Sandra Winter, 56, rented a room to Mr. Sanford in her home in Jeremy Ranch, Utah. She described him as an unassuming man who worked for a local business doing snow removal and landscaping. He also had creative ambitions as a sculpture artist working with Sheetrock, Ms. Winter recalled.

 

[Calm]

23 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

There are people missing. 

This is especially concerning.  Obviously the ward is very disorganized at the moment, but my guess is most Saints would have the impulse to call to let the bishop or RS or someone else in the loop know they are okay…plus if ward members are unavailable, there is always the Stake.  We have had it drilled into us since childhood we are a family and we are to be concerned with each other and that often translates in my experience into not letting others worry about us.

[Calm]

30 minutes ago, Chum said:

Perp lived in Jeremy Ranch, Utah in 2010.

 

Was he possibly LDS?  Not that everyone who lives in Utah is LDS.  Summit County actually has the lowest percentage in Utah according to AI, 37%.

Edited September 29, 2025 by Calm

[ZealouslyStriving]

Just watched a video where an acquaintance, in Michigan, of the person making the video claimed Sanford was demanding " Do you believe in Jesus or Joseph Smith?" while firing.

Hearsay for now.

[Calm]

42 minutes ago, Chum said:

Perp lived in Jeremy Ranch, Utah in 2010.

 

From the article…

Quote

The Michigan State Police Department has received “additional bomb threats” at various locations in the area, according to Lt. Kim Vetter. Some involved churches, which were checked and cleared, she said.

For some reason, I associated the threats with the shooter, thinking they happened before the attack.  It sounds like these were more copy cat.  If so, there are some really sick people out there.  Not that we didn’t know it already, but I just had to say it again.

I am also finding it weird I would rather have the killer a Mormon (can’t call him a Saint or even LDS) or exmormon than a nonMormon for some reason…maybe that translates to me as he was just sick and not so much hate against us as a people.

Quote

Sanford was also a father of a son who grappled with serious health obstacles after he was born, according to posts online from the family and the hospital.

That poor family.

Edited September 29, 2025 by Calm

[Calm]

 

3 minutes ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

Just watched a video where an acquaintance, in Michigan, of the person making the video claimed Sanford was demanding " Do you believe in Jesus or Joseph Smith?" while firing.

Hearsay for now.

That is just awful on too many levels.  Hope it’s not true.

[ZealouslyStriving]

 

**Apparently getting married and having a son couldn't tamp down his grievances against the Church. **

Edited September 29, 2025 by ZealouslyStriving

[Calm]

Quote

I’d also like to acknowledge the heroism of not only the first responders, but the people who were inside that church at a time they were shielding the children who were also present within the church, moving on to safety, just hundreds of people just practicing their faith, just extreme courage, brave, and that’s the type of community that we are," he said in a news conference yesterday evening. 

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/live-blog/michigan-church-shooting-live-updates-rcna234368

[The Nehor]

Reports are that the shooter is a former marine who lived in the area and was reportedly deployed to Iraq. He was an automotive tech. One source gives his medals which appear to be pretty standard. Nothing out of the ordinary. He would have had some combat training but unless something went nuts while he was in Iraq (possible) he probably never saw combat.

[Kenngo1969]

For what it's worth, I just posted this on another forum:

Quote

 

What do you think of the shooter and arsonist of the Michigan church being killed by the police?

 

This answer is not legal advice, is general commentary and is the author’s [albeit well-considered] personal opinion only, and does not create an attorney-client relationship between the author and any other person. Anyone needing legal advice should contact an attorney who is licensed to practice where the matter arose. The author reserves the right to be wrong, should any of his readers or his interlocutors disagree with him, Vive le difference! and caveat lector.

From a legal standpoint, any action taken by the police against this shooter-arsonist will be reviewed by the agencies who employ those officers to ensure that the actions the officers took were in accordance with those agencies’ policies. Perhaps those actions will be reviewed by a prosecutor’s office to ensure that the k!lling was justified legally. I am not familiar, intimately, with how events surrounding this incident unfolded, but even from what little I know, I have a hard time believing that the shooting was not justified. Officers may use deadly force when, reasonably, they believe such force is necessary to prevent the person against whom such force is used from inflicting serious bodily injury upon, or from k!lling, someone else. Tennessee v. Garner, 471 U.S. 1 (1985). In Graham v. Connor, 490 U.S. 386 (1989), the Court clarified that the reasonableness of an officer’s actions will be judged against what an officer faced with the same or similar circumstances normally would do.

It’s a sad, sad situation all around. Who among us never has said, “I’m so angry [or fill in the blank with emotion here] that I could just k!ll [another person]”? Fortunately, in the unlikely event that such declarations indicate genuine homicidal or murderous intent, the vast majority of us are successful in quelling those urges.

Whatever the reason, tragically, this gentleman was not.

While it might be easy for me to not harbor any animus toward this shooter-arsonist because the incident occurred nearly 1,500 miles away from me, the people who, tragically, were injured and killed in this incident are not unlike the dozens of people with whom I share pews each Sunday. We’re all simply trying to do better at putting God first in our lives[1], at loving our fellow beings [who, since all of us are children of God, are our brothers and sisters], at doing unto others as we would have others do unto us, and so on.

I’m far from perfect. As an imperfect, flawed, fallible, mortal human being, I need a Savior just as desperately as anyone else does—just as desperately as this shooter-arsonist does. The reality is that no matter how “good” anyone is, no one can make it halfway through this life, or into the next, without a Savior. No matter what anyone has done in one’s life, no matter what heinous, atrocious acts this man committed, he is someone’s father; someone’s son; someone’s brother; someone’s grandson; someone’s nephew; someone’s friend; and so on. All of those people he left behind grieve their loss just as acutely as those his victims left behind grieve their losses.

May God have mercy on his soul—he needs it the most.

---

END NOTE

1. A wise soul—if I knew the identity of that soul, I would give more proper, more specific credit—said that if we do not choose to put God and His Kingdom first in our lives, in the end, it will make no difference what we have chosen instead.

Condolences, all around.

Edited September 29, 2025 by Kenngo1969

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Who among us never has said, “I’m so angry [or fill in the blank with emotion here] that I could just k!ll [another person]”

I don’t think I have ever said that unless as a child before I understood what it actually meant, but in many ways I have a literal mind.  And an odd nonviolent streak in that in my dreams I can’t express effective violence, if I dream I am holding a gun for example, it turns into just my hand pointing a finger like we did as little kids.  
 

I don’t think I am that unusual in never expressing anger or whatever by proclaiming I want to kill someone, even in the two or three times I was filled with rage and hate because someone hurt someone I love. Now wanting to hit or slap someone, that I have wanted to do along with slashing tires and a few other less admirable things.

My favorite form of punishment would be to remove one’s wealth and require a person to support any victim or someone the victim designates as the victim or their family may want nothing to do with them…though one would need to find a way to motivate them to do so.

In this case it seems the officers came into active shooting (at least one individual report being shot at in their car in the parking lot iirc) and thus were unable to have the time to attempt to defuse the situation and responsibly stopped the man from hurting more than he did.  I am grateful they were able to be so quick getting there and it was not prolonged (8 minutes iirc) so that people could be safe once they were out of the building and thus able to help each other as well as needed rescue and medical help getting to them sooner.  I would not be surprised if the community gave these two medals.

If the article I read was accurate, it seems the shooter had a son who needed his father to be there to give him love and care even more than usual.  The son’s loss through the actions of his father (whether as a result of the father’s death or mental illness that might have caused issues earlier for the shooter’s family) and the burden that relationship will now give him (being a child of a mass murderer must do a number on one’s head and heart) is also a great tragedy.

Edited September 29, 2025 by Calm

[bluebell]

9 hours ago, Calm said:

This is especially concerning.  Obviously the ward is very disorganized at the moment, but my guess is most Saints would have the impulse to call to let the bishop or RS or someone else in the loop know they are okay…plus if ward members are unavailable, there is always the Stake.  We have had it drilled into us since childhood we are a family and we are to be concerned with each other and that often translates in my experience into not letting others worry about us.

I was thinking the same thing. If there are people still missing then that doesn’t bode well.  

[MustardSeed]

Mental illness, combined with a significant rise in social anger, combined with prevalence of murder as a way of effectively communicating that anger terrifies me.
It’s “cute” how people politicize this. In my opinion, turn into politics is one way of numbing a cold, painful reality.  
 

I felt a little bit different sitting in church yesterday. Not afraid exactly.  I can’t really describe it.
 

I feel deep pain for our brothers and sisters. What would it be like to have to return to church?  I get that faith can overcome, but there is the human element of PTSD as well. I really feel sick and sad.

Edited September 29, 2025 by MustardSeed

[bluebell]

3 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

 

I felt a little bit different sitting in church yesterday. Not afraid exactly.  I can’t really describe it.

Same.  Our church here is in a weird location that overlooks a big hill.  There is a driveway you have to follow to get to the church, and once in the parking lot there is no exit other than the driveway, unless you want to go over a fence into other people's backyards, or over a fence and roll down the hill.  So yesterday, when a person that did not look like a member (girl wearing pants and a tank top carrying a big backpack) ended up on the outskirts of the parking lot, it made my husband nervous!  He wouldn't get out of the car and just sat there and watched her until he could tell she wasn't up to no good.  

The week before, no one would have even thought twice about her I don't think.

[JVW]

I'm so sorry that this happened. It is so tragic. It is also really unsettling. I have been praying for all of the victims and I firmly believe that God is there with each one of them during this dark hour.

I'm not a gun guy but it actually makes me want to get a little pocket pistol to carry with me to church until church leadership implements some sort of security measure to protect their congregations.

I am really curious to see what the church officially states after this situation resolves in a week or two. If they don't make any other statements than the one that they just made I will be really disappointed. If current church leadership ignores the situation and just says "pray to Jesus and he'll help you feel better" I think that's a really poor response.

[JAHS]

The mother of Michigan church gunman Thomas Sanford made an ominous social media post just before his attack

Wondering if this is what helped pushed him over the edge.

[bluebell]

16 minutes ago, JAHS said:

The mother of Michigan church gunman Thomas Sanford made an ominous social media post just before his attack

Wondering if this is what helped pushed him over the edge.

I wonder if these are her words or if she is sharing a quote?

[Pyreaux]

12 hours ago, Calm said:

I am also finding it weird I would rather have the killer a Mormon (can’t call him a Saint or even LDS) or exmormon than a nonMormon for some reason…

I'd rather have the killer an ex-mormon for a knowing hateful reason than a dumb unknowing mistake, like manipulated into doing this by a news article, youtuber or a sermon. I prefer a clear, internal motive over one that seems random or based on a misunderstanding.

If the shooter was an ex-Mormon, the act is rooted in a known, painful, or pre-existing conflict. The violence, while abhorrent, is then coherent with a history of trauma or apostate rage. It would tell us that this is a confined issue if the killer is a "known" entity, one that could hypothetically be addressed.

If the shooter was a non-Mormon manipulated by external influence, from years of demonization in media, the attack is random, external, and unpredictable. It means the community was attacked not for what it is, but because of its public perception. I hope the Michigan shooter knew what he was doing, rather than just a dummy affected by propaganda, because there could be other dummies out there.

It's a desire to find meaning and logic in a senseless tragedy. Your preference reflects a desire for a motive that is internal to the community's experience rather than one that is external and random. A way to impose an understandable logic onto the event rather than having to admitting to a larger problem, like simply the US today is a divisive and emotionally charged environment, where politics and religion are seen as a reason for a violent conflict.

Edited September 29, 2025 by Pyreaux

[longview]

35 minutes ago, JVW said:

I am really curious to see what the church officially states after this situation resolves in a week or two. If they don't make any other statements than the one that they just made I will be really disappointed. If current church leadership ignores the situation and just says "pray to Jesus and he'll help you feel better" I think that's a really poor response.

When I first saw the news, it brought to mind the various church shootings that occurred in Colorado for the last several years, a few of them were fortunate in having trained people with side arms able to stop the perpetrators rather promptly. Will the LDS church resort to using such people? Probably not, I think it will be years in the future as general societal violence keep increasing.

[Raingirl]

9 minutes ago, longview said:

When I first saw the news, it brought to mind the various church shootings that occurred in Colorado for the last several years, a few of them were fortunate in having trained people with side arms able to stop the perpetrators rather promptly. Will the LDS church resort to using such people? Probably not, I think it will be years in the future as general societal violence keep increasing.

I converted from Judaism. We always had people carrying at services and events. During the High Holy Days, the security was increased. It included additional armed personnel, uniformed and civilian, along with squad cars in prominent positions. 
 

I distinctly remember being in a particularly large synagogue one Yom Kippur, and thinking how easy it would be for a terrorist to kill hundreds of Jews at once.  It was a chilling thought. 

[manol]

1 hour ago, JVW said:

I'm not a gun guy but it actually makes me want to get a little pocket pistol to carry with me to church until church leadership implements some sort of security measure to protect their congregations.

For many years I was a gun guy. There was a time when I felt it was prudent to carry (illegally, because there was no legal option) after a man repeatedly phoned in threats to shoot up our church.  This was before caller ID.  Nobody else took his threats seriously.  So I appointed myself "unofficial greeter", hanging around outside before and after meetings, and keeping an eye on what was happening outside and/or at the entrances as best I could during meetings.  Everybody just thought I was this cheerful little greeter guy. 

I wouldn't have lasted long against a well-armed ex-Marine in a pickup truck on a suicide mission.

Imo hiring a police officer would be a much better solution, as a cop in uniform is DETERRENCE. 

Edited September 29, 2025 by manol

[Pyreaux]

So far, we know the suspect, Thomas Jacob Sanford, was a local resident. Who in the past lived in Utah, he faced a personal civil rent dispute in Utah. There is now an update he has past criminal convictions for Burglary and OWI (Operating While Intoxicated), here.

Edited September 29, 2025 by Pyreaux

[bsjkki]

 

[JVW]

9 minutes ago, manol said:

For many years I was a gun guy. There was a time when I felt it was prudent to carry (illegally, because there was no legal option) after a man repeatedly phoned in threats to shoot up our church.  This was before caller ID.  Nobody else took his threats seriously.  So I appointed myself "unofficial greeter", hanging around outside before and after meetings, and keeping an eye on what was happening outside and/or at the entrances as best I could during meetings.  Everybody just thought I was this cheerful little greeter guy. 

I wouldn't have lasted long against a well-armed ex-Marine in a pickup truck on a suicide mission.

Imo hiring a police officer would be a much better solution, as a cop in uniform is DETERRENCE. 

I agree with you. If the church doesn't update it's policy or provide resources for security, even if everyone in the congregation were armed it wouldn't provide a deterrence because the church's official policy is "no guns are allowed inside a meetinghouse" so the assumption will be that nobody is carrying inside a church building.

I know that the church has many policeman, veterans, CIA, FBI, secret service, etc. former or current people in it's membership. I know it has the money to hire private security or install security cameras, or whatever in meetinghouses around the world. I just don't think that they will. Which is really weird to say considering that we used to have our own militia and went to war against the United States at one point.

I know that, using the Book of Mormon, one could point to the anti-nephi-lehis or whatever group it was that buried their weapons of war and knelt down and were voluntarily slaughtered. You can add to that Jesus' admonition to "turn the other cheek", etc. But at the same time a third of the Book of Mormon is war and I would argue the most venerated man in the entire book is captain Moroni, who rounded up all of the "kingmen" and threatened to execute them all if they didn't help fight the current war they were in. He also was very fierce against the chief judge when rations didn't come and threatened to bring his army and overthrow the government. So I think that if the church grew a pair that would be more in line with the spirit of our modern religious texts than if we just said, "please don't terrorize us again, pretty please" without doing anything about it.

At least president Nelson set up the "home centered church" maybe we can just go back to covid times and have every family worship privately in their own homes and then we don't have to worry about any more terrorist attacks. Who cares about freedom of religion or assembly. /s