Shooting at church in Grand Blanc Michigan. Pray

[bluebell]

12 hours ago, The Nehor said:

One thing I hate about these shootings is the endless harping about how harsh rhetoric causes this. I really don’t think it does. I am not even convinced that political views are the main cause. I suspect that is an easy dodge to avoid talking about systemic issues that are leading to a culture of nihilism and hopelessness. Other liberal democracies have harsh political rhetoric without having a culture of mass shootings and targeted political violence.

I don’t think it causes it, but I do think it contributes to it.  I can think of two ways that it’s probably a large part of the problem, in my opinion.

First, the hateful rhetoric and social media algorithms create enemies.  Echo chambers give people an inflated sense of their own morality, and also an inflated sense of the other groups’ immorality.  This leads to extremism when it goes unchecked, which is just another form of fanaticism.  Couple that with people’s online addiction to rage-posting and actual violence is a natural consequence.

Second, we seem to have a culture here in the US where violence against “the enemy” is celebrated.  So not only is violence more likely, it’s also no longer taboo. That’s a lethal mixture. Though most people don’t go beyond online celebrations, their existence emboldens the few mentally unstable people who are willing to pull the trigger.  

I think you have a point though, and I don’t think it’s the whole picture. I think the breakdown of the social contract in our country is the third major component. We have increased hopelessness, a breakdown of the family unit (so more social isolation and less ongoing support) and a country that is slowly spiraling into collapse on most fronts (inflation, economy, housing, health care, and political instability).

Like you said in your post, none of these, by themselves, can explain the state of things. There are lots of countries where people are more hopeless than we, less stable, much less wealthy, etc. and they don’t go out killing their ideological enemies.

I think it takes all of these ingredients to make this soup, and we seem to have them.

 

[bluebell]

9 hours ago, Chum said:

I accept this but I could use your help in bringing it home for me. If a parent finds there is no young men's weekday program at all except basketball, how should they proceed - once the initial polite asking to implement existing Church programs and polite offering to volunteer have all been politely declined? 

They would probably depend on each unique situation, but my instinct is to become the squeaky wheel. Go with the chain of command as far as you can and start riding Salt Lake City if that’s your last option.But sadly, if a bishop and a Stake president are determined not to take Council with parents or follow the handbook then I think the parent would have to stop sending the kid to those weekly activities and take over that instruction themselves.

It’s hard when ward leadership is that dysfunctional. 

[bsjkki]

 

[california boy]

14 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

 

One thing that doesn't make sense to me about this narrative  that it is all caused by a failed relationship with a former Mormon girlfriend 10 years ago.  If he was still single and frustrated with his relationship with women, then maybe.  But it is 10 years later, he did find someone to love and marry and has a child.  Looks to me like he moved on.  I think more digging needs to be done.

[Kenngo1969]

1 hour ago, california boy said:

One thing that doesn't make sense to me about this narrative  that it is all caused by a failed relationship with a former Mormon girlfriend 10 years ago.  If he was still single and frustrated with his relationship with women, then maybe.  But it is 10 years later, he did find someone to love and marry and has a child.  Looks to me like he moved on.  I think more digging needs to be done.

I share that opinion/sentiment.  His father described him as a devoted family man.  I can believe, readily, that he had a good deal of enmity and animosity for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.   I have a much harder time believing that those feelings stem from the failed relationship he had with a member of the Church of Jesus Christ [allegedly, because of his (alleged) recalcitrance/intransigence when it came to getting his tattoos removed as a condition of continuing/deepening the relationship].  In short, why is he still so hung up on that woman [or on what happened between them] when he moved on, married, and had at least one child with someone else?  To me, it doesn't wash.  

Edited October 1, 2025 by Kenngo1969

[Kenngo1969]

2 hours ago, bsjkki said:

 

Whoa. My respect for Nicole Parker wasn't lacking to begin with, but ...

Bravo!

You go, Sister!  You go!  Hooray!

Edited October 1, 2025 by Kenngo1969

[Calm]

3 hours ago, california boy said:

But it is 10 years later, he did find someone to love and marry and has a child.  Looks to me like he moved on.

 

2 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

In short, why is he still so hung up on that woman [or on what happened between them] when he moved on, married, and had at least one child with someone else?  To me, it doesn't wash.  

It would likely not be about not being able to be a couple with that particular woman (though there are people who still desire a former relationship or even someone who was never in a relationship with them even when in what appears to be a strong relationship), but the rejection—what is seen as an attack on who he is—that continues to fester and grow hate.

Edited October 1, 2025 by Calm

[bsjkki]

In Grand Blanc stake, pain and prayers came quickly – Church News

 

And Thelma's Go Fund Me. https://gofund.me/67ace7709

The church is a small world. My son and daughter in law had their reception in that building. Good friends of mine were members of the ward but were home Sunday zooming the mission farewell taking place in my ward in Colorado. My nephew's wife is very good friends with Brother Hicken, one of the doctors shot and whose child was shot in the back. When you attack a ward, it shows how many ties we have with each other. 

Edited October 1, 2025 by bsjkki

[Chum]

5 hours ago, bluebell said:

They would probably depend on each unique situation, but my instinct is to become the squeaky wheel. Go with the chain of command as far as you can and start riding Salt Lake City if that’s your last option.But sadly, if a bishop and a Stake president are determined not to take Council with parents or follow the handbook then I think the parent would have to stop sending the kid to those weekly activities and take over that instruction themselves.

It’s hard when ward leadership is that dysfunctional. 

This is helpful and appreciated. 

[bsjkki]

 

[BlueDreams]

Really appreciated this quote from one of the survivors that I ran into today: 

Quote

“Fear breeds anger, anger breeds hate, hate breeds suffering,” Louis wrote.

 

“If we can stop the hate we can stop the suffering,” she added. “But stopping the hate takes all of us.”

From this article 

[Chum]

7 hours ago, california boy said:

that doesn't make sense to me about this narrative  that it is all caused by a failed relationship with a former Mormon girlfriend 10 years ago.

How it would make sense to me is that he had 2 powerful experiences that were intertwined; one was with his girlfriend and another was with the Church.
Past here I am surmising. I imagine that both experiences faded with time and distance and left voids. His wife filled one.

And somewhere he came across and consumed anti-Church poison and that distracted him from whatever was left. 

That he was exposed to vitriolic, anti-Church rancor and it had an impact on him - I think this bit is a given.

[ZealouslyStriving]

13 minutes ago, Chum said:

How it would make sense to me is that he had 2 powerful experiences that were intertwined; one was with his girlfriend and another was with the Church.
Past here I am surmising. I imagine that both experiences faded with time and distance and left voids. His wife filled one.

And somewhere he came across and consumed anti-Church poison and that distracted him from whatever was left. 

That he was exposed to vitriolic, anti-Church rancor and it had an impact on him - I think this bit is a given.

I think you are right- vitriolic online anti-Mormon rhetoric reignited whatever latent hostility he had under the surface for the Church and inflamed his mental illness.

[Chum]

Just now, Chum said:

That he was exposed to vitriolic, anti-Church rancor and it had an impact on him - I think this bit is a given.

I would like to add here that rancor is always rancor. 

And it's constantly on offer to us. We all come in contact with it. And consumers invariably don't know that they are consumers.
I've been one. It looked like this. It always looks like this.

I believed a narrative that [Group] is a problem. 
I allowed, accepted and/or supported harsh, life-changing measures against them.
[this is the spot where the rationalization, manipulation, etc explanations go]

What's important is that from Christ's standpoint, I was okay with harming God's children.
And that I got there by consuming a different brand of our shooter's poison. 

[JAHS]

Utah Catholic church offers Mass for repose of soul of late LDS president

A small Catholic church in Heber City, Utah, will offer a Mass for the repose of the soul of Russell M. Nelson, the president of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS), who died on Sept. 27 at the age of 101.

St. Lawrence Catholic Church, a mission church of St. Mary’s in Park City, will celebrate the Mass at 9:30 a.m. on Thursday, Oct. 2. The community will pray a rosary for the repose of his soul at 8:45 a.m. before the weekday Mass begins.

Catholics offer prayers for the dead to ask God to grant graces to the recently deceased for the purification of their souls, which may not be complete at the moment of the person’s death.

The church extended an “open invitation” to everyone in the Heber Valley community to attend the Mass in a message posted to Facebook. It is open to any person who wants to join in prayer for Nelson, “especially our LDS neighbors,” according to the post.
(See the link above for more)

________________________________________

A very thoughtful gesture by the Catholic Church to do this for President Nelson. I am certain he would feel very honored by this expression of love for him and concern for his eternal life.
I only wish that people of other faiths would feel the same about our baptisms for their dead. 

[Calm]

18 minutes ago, JAHS said:

Utah Catholic church offers Mass for repose of soul of late LDS president

A small Catholic church in Heber City, Utah, will offer a Mass for the repose of the soul of Russell M. Nelson, the president of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS), who died on Sept. 27 at the age of 101.

St. Lawrence Catholic Church, a mission church of St. Mary’s in Park City, will celebrate the Mass at 9:30 a.m. on Thursday, Oct. 2. The community will pray a rosary for the repose of his soul at 8:45 a.m. before the weekday Mass begins.

Catholics offer prayers for the dead to ask God to grant graces to the recently deceased for the purification of their souls, which may not be complete at the moment of the person’s death.

The church extended an “open invitation” to everyone in the Heber Valley community to attend the Mass in a message posted to Facebook. It is open to any person who wants to join in prayer for Nelson, “especially our LDS neighbors,” according to the post.
(See the link above for more)

________________________________________

A very thoughtful gesture by the Catholic Church to do this for President Nelson. I am certain he would feel very honored by this expression of love for him and concern for his eternal life.
I only wish that people of other faiths would feel the same about our baptisms for their dead. 

Lovely….

I think it’s closer to putting someone’s name on the temple roll though, though more than just that, of course.

The mass is not baptism into the Catholic faith.

Edited October 2, 2025 by Calm

[InCognitus]

11 hours ago, california boy said:

One thing that doesn't make sense to me about this narrative  that it is all caused by a failed relationship with a former Mormon girlfriend 10 years ago.  If he was still single and frustrated with his relationship with women, then maybe.  But it is 10 years later, he did find someone to love and marry and has a child.  Looks to me like he moved on.  I think more digging needs to be done.

From this news article:  Gunman in Michigan LDS chapel shooting was Marine and Iraq War veteran: Officials

"It was during his time in Utah, where he moved after his military service, that Sanford also descended into heavy drug use, according to the friend, Peter Tersigni.  'I know three things. He moved to Utah. He started dating this girl and then investigated and learned about Mormons because she was a Mormon. And I know that also, he got into meth really hardcore. It messed his life up and it messed his head up. And it just happened to be at the time he was around Mormons,' Peter Tersigni told ABC News".

It sounds like his life got messed up with drugs big time during that period of his life, and he likely linked all the bad things that happened to his life with his association with Utah and "Mormons".

[The Nehor]

6 hours ago, BlueDreams said:

Really appreciated this quote from one of the survivors that I ran into today: 

From this article 

That is just a paraphrase from Yoda.

Edited October 2, 2025 by The Nehor

[Nofear]

13 hours ago, BlueDreams said:

Really appreciated this quote from one of the survivors that I ran into today: 

From this article 

Another member raised money for the shooter's family to help them deal with things.
https://www.nytimes.com/2025/10/02/us/lds-church-michigan-grand-blanc-township.html

[Nofear]

9 hours ago, Nofear said:

Another member raised money for the shooter's family to help them deal with things.
https://www.nytimes.com/2025/10/02/us/lds-church-michigan-grand-blanc-township.html

Huh, I didn't realize it was Dave Butler who organized the GoFundMe.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xlqWo08xbag

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNh490uHM9Y

 

[InCognitus]

This KSL story posted this evening expresses a similar thought of sympathy I had for the killer after reading about his drug problems:

Woman confronted by Michigan church gunman says she instantly forgave him for killing dad

"He let me live," Lisa Louis, 45, wrote.

Quote

 

Louis said she was kneeling next to her mortally wounded father, Craig Hayden, 72, when Sanford approached and asked a question.

"I never took my eyes off his eyes, something happened, I saw pain, he felt lost," Louis wrote. "I deeply felt it with every fiber of my being. I forgave him, I forgave him right there, not in words, but with my heart."

She also wrote: "I saw into his soul and he saw into mine. He let me live."

 

The article doesn't say what question was asked of her, I'd like to know.

[Kenngo1969]

Rabbi Yisroel Goldstein's message to Latter-day Saints, and to others, in the wake of the shooting and arson at the church in Michigan:

Thank you, Rabbi.  Much appreciated.

[BlueDreams]

On 10/2/2025 at 1:09 AM, The Nehor said:

That is just a paraphrase from Yoda.

And I can still appreciate its significance/wisdom in a very different context. 🙃

Besides Star wars is known for it's universal spiritual/cultural themes around light and dark; good and evil. 

 

With luv, 

BD

Edited October 3, 2025 by BlueDreams

[JAHS]

I won't show it here but do a search on YouTube for

"Michigan church shooting: Police releases bodycam video of officers responding to attack"

It shows officers shooting the suspect. Warning that it is a little graphic. 

 

[Calm]

40 minutes ago, JAHS said:

I won't show it here but do a search on YouTube for

"Michigan church shooting: Police releases bodycam video of officers responding to attack"

It shows officers shooting the suspect. Warning that it is a little graphic. 

 

Thank you for not posting it.