God Is Mean

[Emily]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

Over the years I've learned that sometimes, I do not want to be comforted, I do not want the peace that the Savior offers.  I want to despair and be angry because I want God to finally figure out that He is not being fair, or just, or a good parent/God and to stop doing what He is doing, and start doing 'better' (which really just means doing what I wanted instead). 

My oldest son at the age of five would fall into a litany of screaming, "Why not? Why not? Why not?" whenever I refused to let him do something. I always explained my reasons for refusing a request at the time of refusal, and I would generally explain again (not that he was ever listening), but he would persist in, "Why not?" over and over.

It was exasperating because of course he didn't want an explanation and wouldn't accept my explanation as valid, he just wanted me to change my mind. 

I tend to hear his voice screaming "Why not?!" when discussions turn to topics of not understanding why life is hard, why it's a sin to do X, why it's church policy to avoid Y, when the explanation in most cases is pretty obvious, albeit unpalatable. But I guess we are all five year olds at times. 😝

Edited August 21, 2025 by Emily

[Tacenda]

4 hours ago, Senator said:

Geez, you should write a book!

 I would read it.

Same here, and now I want to go watch the movies! 

[Tacenda]

4 hours ago, JVW said:

Yeah lately when people ask me "Why do bad things happen to good people?" My (serious, not joking) answer is now, "Because God loves them."

There is something to what you've said here, maybe he's seeing which of us he'd like to have around for an eternity. 

[bluebell]

3 hours ago, The Nehor said:

And probably a painful future. I haven’t seen anything that convinces me that death will stop the pain.

What have you seen that has you thinking death won't stop the pain?

Edited August 22, 2025 by bluebell

[bluebell]

5 hours ago, Senator said:

Geez, you should write a book!

 I would read it.

[Calm]

2 hours ago, Emily said:

Sounds like He may well have been trying to teach you acceptance. God must need loads of that. 😄

Probably also trust not only myself (because in the past I was very competent and effective as my parents taught me many things well even if they misstepped in other ways), but trust others enough to let them screw up at times and not to worry as if the world depended on me, things don’t have to be perfect to be enjoyed or seen as worthwhile.

Mortality is a group effort.

Edited August 22, 2025 by Calm

[Calm]

3 hours ago, Emily said:

always explained my reasons for refusing a request at the time of refusal

Things I wished I had registered better as a parent (thankfully my kids didn’t get triggered into tantrums, but one of my grandkids was and none of us adults were effective in working with him to get through them, helping him learn to self regulate to lower their frequency, and then to communicate beyond them,  I should ask him sometime if he remembers and what he thinks of the experience now):  kids can’t process information when they are overloaded, whether by what is going on outside of them or their internal state.  It is usually best to deal with the overload first and then work with them understanding how to lower the possibility of the overload happening again.  

Quote

But I guess we are all five year olds at times. 😝

I think overload happens a lot more to adults than most realize, especially self imposed overload (we think we have to just keep adding to whatever to have fun, make something even more worthwhile, etc).  We need to learn to self regulate as well rather than just masking our negative emotions.

Edited August 22, 2025 by Calm

[Okrahomer]

3 hours ago, Emily said:

tend to hear his voice screaming "Why not?!" when discussions turn to topics of not understanding why life is hard, why it's a sin to do X, why it's church policy to avoid Y, when the explanation in most cases is pretty obvious, albeit unpalatable. But I guess we are all five year olds at times. 😝

The Lesson

Yes, my fretting, frowning child,

I could cross the room to you more easily.

But I’ve already learned to walk,

So I make you come to me.

Let go now — there! You see?

Oh, remember this simple lesson, child.

And when in later years you cry out

With tight fists and tears —

“Oh, help me, God — please.” —

Just listen and you’ll hear a silent voice:

“I would, child, I would.

But it’s you, not I,

who needs to try Godhood.”

—The Lesson, by Carol Lynn Pearson, in her book of poetry entitled “Beginnings”

Edited August 22, 2025 by Okrahomer

[Okrahomer]

42 minutes ago, Calm said:

and not to worry as if the world depended on me, things don’t have to be perfect to be enjoyed or seen as worthwhile.

Scrupulosity

Edited to add:  I heard a BYU Radio podcast recently about this, and I realized that there were times in my youth when I was very likely dealing with it — without even knowing what it was.

Edited August 22, 2025 by Okrahomer

[The Nehor]

5 hours ago, CV75 said:

I'd say the operative word in my experience is "trusted" instead of "seen. How would you describe the trajectory of your trust in Christ over time?

I don’t trust God either. I don’t see why God would stop. Trust has been trending downwards for the last few years. I had what I was sure were promises from God that came to nothing. The quality of those experiences matches those that gave me a testimony and led me to make a lot of decisions in my life. Finding out that kind of communication is unreliable was a kick in the teeth.

Edited August 22, 2025 by The Nehor

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, Okrahomer said:

The Lesson

Yes, my fretting, frowning child,

I could cross the room to you more easily.

But I’ve already learned to walk,

So I make you come to me.

Let go now — there! You see?

Oh, remember this simple lesson, child.

And when in later years you cry out

With tight fists and tears —

“Oh, help me, God — please.” —

Just listen and you’ll hear a silent voice:

“I would, child, I would.

But it’s you, not I,

who needs to try Godhood.”

—The Lesson, by Carol Lynn Pearson, in her book of poetry entitled “Beginnings”

I can’t decide whether God wants to be a distant figure assisting from afar as we stretch ourselves and develop or if he is a helicopter parent that wants to be involved in everything.

The metaphor of a child going off to school or employment or whatever alone and being distant from parents doesn’t make as much sense when the metaphorical (and literal) parent wants the child to be in contact multiple times every day, warns/comforts with the promise that the Parent will always be watching, and insists that to succeed the child must look to the parent in every thought. If this were a mortal parent we would call it codependency. Also the end game is to go home again. So it is stretch your wings and fly and oh, then you have to account for everything.

I am finding more and more metaphors break or are self-contradictory when I look at them too hard.

Edited August 22, 2025 by The Nehor

[CV75]

10 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I don’t trust God either. I don’t see why God would stop. Trust has been trending downwards for the last few years. I had what I was sure were promises from God that came to nothing. The quality of those experiences matches those that gave me a testimony and led me to make a lot of decisions in my life. Finding out that kind of communication is unreliable was a kick in the teeth.

I think the important thing is what you are doing with that kind of experience. I share the following for the sake of general principle and not to minimize your experience by comparing particulars: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/liahona/2025/09/04-lessons-learned-in-inviting-christ-to-author-my-story?lang=eng

"...The comfortable narrative I had written for myself was [such-and-such].

"What if I had stuck with this comfortable narrative?

"I would have enjoyed [such-and-such]. And I would have missed a stretching, soul-searching, and faith-building experience. Uphill? Yes. Worth it? Oh, yes!

"I offer my witness that “because [the Savior] knows our potential perfectly, He will take us to places we never imagined ourselves.” I am confident He will take you to places you never imagined, and your [life] will be soul-stretching. Let God guide you to walk beside someone who needs you."

 

Edited August 22, 2025 by CV75

[CV75]

19 hours ago, JVW said:

Hi everyone. I haven't been around lately because I was getting to distracted from working and had the network admin block the site from my work computer. Anyways ... onto the discussion topic.

Several nights ago I was woken by my crying 6 month old at 4 AM. My wife had a migraine and I really wanted to get her back to sleep quickly because of how exhausted I was. Nothing I was trying was working so I said a sincere prayer asking God to just help her fall back to sleep. His response was, "No". His response kind of broke me a little. I got really angry with God because I rarely ask Him for anything and I've recently decided to start a path to return to the temple as I strive to get a good relationship with Him again.

As I've reflected on my walk with God, it's ups and downs since I met Him in my early twenties, I've come to realize something. The more effort I make to get close to God, the more mean He is to me. I was reminded of this verse in the Book of Mormon (Mosiah 3:19), "...willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to INFLICT upon him..."

I decided to express my anger to God and study the scriptures to see if He'd communicate anything to me, and He did. Right after the garden suffering, when Jesus is being arrested ... John 18:11, "Then said Jesus unto Peter, Put up thy sword into the sheath: the cup which my Father hath given me, shall I not drink it?" Jesus was sinless, blameless, compassionate, and loving. And God gave Him a cup filled to the brim with the most potent poison. Talk about being mean! If I am trying to follow Jesus, of course I should be expected to drink a similar cup, with poison tailored for me.

So here is my question. Do I really want to walk the path of Christianity if God is going to treat me like this if I intentionally choose to follow Him? What are the pro's and con's? I know that life will involve suffering whether or not I choose to follow Jesus, but why would I want to experience additional God-given suffering when I could just ignore God and deal with regular stuff instead? Hopefully this post makes sense and I look forward to learning from y'all about this topic.

Another thought or two about "inflict" -- I read some verses in King Benjamin's address today about God's wrath. That could be perceived as "mean" also, as well as many of the things King Benjamin says that can sound excessively demeaning. However:

When someone actively rejects the Father's Gift (Christ and His Atonement and all that brings us) in this world, after (from His perspective) He chose Jesus to perform the unimageable for the rest of us at the infinite and eternal cost of suffering, and we full-heartedly wanted that and agreed to follow Him, then yes, wrath is a reasonable reaction. He can have wrath and love at the same time, while we may find that challenging. I've heard it said, and have observed, that the wrath arises from distress, which arises from sorrow. This might also explain how the perhaps seemingly heavy-handed language of King Benjamin, when we love and trust God and understand the magnitude of His grace is quite factual and not belittling, degrading, humiliating, contemptuous, scathing, derogatory, or pejorative at all.

This article touches upon what God inflicts upon us: things we would not have otherwise chosen for ourselves or expected from Him, things that we might resist but which stretch our souls for the better. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/liahona/2025/09/04-lessons-learned-in-inviting-christ-to-author-my-story?lang=eng

[bluebell]

11 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I don’t trust God either. I don’t see why God would stop. Trust has been trending downwards for the last few years. I had what I was sure were promises from God that came to nothing. The quality of those experiences matches those that gave me a testimony and led me to make a lot of decisions in my life. Finding out that kind of communication is unreliable was a kick in the teeth.

I had something happen to my family a few years ago that has made it incredibly hard sometimes for me to trust God as well.  Probably not in the same way as you've experienced, but I just wanted to validate that place where you currently find yourself.

[bluebell]

15 hours ago, Emily said:

My oldest son at the age of five would fall into a litany of screaming, "Why not? Why not? Why not?" whenever I refused to let him do something. I always explained my reasons for refusing a request at the time of refusal, and I would generally explain again (not that he was ever listening), but he would persist in, "Why not?" over and over.

It was exasperating because of course he didn't want an explanation and wouldn't accept my explanation as valid, he just wanted me to change my mind. 

I tend to hear his voice screaming "Why not?!" when discussions turn to topics of not understanding why life is hard, why it's a sin to do X, why it's church policy to avoid Y, when the explanation in most cases is pretty obvious, albeit unpalatable. But I guess we are all five year olds at times. 😝

So true!

Being a parent myself as actually really helped me with my relationship with God.  It has granted me a perspective that was only theoretically there before, that perspective being that it is a reality that you can be helping give your child what they want for the future or even saving your child from some harm, and they will often both not be able to see it, and will actually sincerely believe the opposite about you and your motives.

If that's true for me with my children (and I have personal proof that it is), then it's also completely true for God with me.  There is comfort in that.

[Okrahomer]

12 hours ago, The Nehor said:

can’t decide whether God wants to be a distant figure assisting from afar as we stretch ourselves and develop or if he is a helicopter parent that wants to be involved in everything.

Which type of divine parenting do you want?  I think there are times when I wish He was more of a helicopter, but He isn’t.  And there are times when I wish He would just stop nagging me, but he won’t.  

[Rain]

I came to the conclusion some time ago that God is not all powerful. The people in the church actually talk about how he isn't all powerful, though they don't say it that way, when they say he can't make us choose the right.

There are so many things we have our children do on their own to help them grow, but there are other things that it would be abuse or neglect if we let our children go through. 

There are just too many things that would be cruel or abusive with God and combined with what I said first about being not all powerful, I think often, he just doesn't have the power, for whatever reason, to stop what is going on.  And I'm ok with that. I'm at peace with it.

Edited August 22, 2025 by Rain

[Kenngo1969]

20 hours ago, The Nehor said:

God likes suffering. It seems to be His favorite tool.

Bwah-hah-hah-hah-hah-hah-hah-hah-hah-hah-hah!!!!

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, Okrahomer said:

Which type of divine parenting do you want?  I think there are times when I wish He was more of a helicopter, but He isn’t.  And there are times when I wish He would just stop nagging me, but he won’t.  

I don’t know and thus I don’t know what to expect. I don’t think what I want factors into it. God is unlikely to change based on my wishes.

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, Rain said:

I came to the conclusion some time ago that God is not all powerful. The people in the church actually talk about how he isn't all powerful, though they don't say it that way, when they say he can't make us choose the right.

There are so many things we have our children do on their own to help them grow, but there are other things that it would be abuse or neglect if we let our children go through. 

There are just too many things that would be cruel or abusive with God and combined with what I said first about being not all powerful, I think often, he just doesn't have rhe power, for whatever reason, to stop what is going on.  And I'm ok with that. I'm at peace with it.

I have toyed with that idea but at that point I might respect God but I couldn’t and shouldn’t trust God absolutely. Laman and Lemuel were then right to doubt whether God could/would deal with Laban and Nephi’s lines about God being able to turn the seas to sand is just ignorant boasting.

[Tacenda]

During my mom's time with Alzheimer's I was devastated to lose her in the disease, I prayed and prayed. I had full faith that God could help her when my husband and brother-in-law gave her a PH blessing. I thought God was mean when my mom at the young age she was, was overtaken with the disease and her life ended abruptly as she and us knew it. Then on top of that injury she had to valiantly live the disease for 10 years. 

Now, I just accept what I cannot change and I believe there are many angels and God needs them to help. But we need to call out to them or Him. And I guess, as has been known to say, God works in mysterious ways. 

But I'm sorry, @JVW, I hope things are looking brighter for you and if not, that you hang on and feel good in being you're own God for the time being if God is elsewhere. And maybe some angels or guardian angels will hear you! 

I don't know if you know @mfbukowski or @Mfbnew, he always speaks about us as having the kingdom of God within us, so that's what I mean with with being your own God in times that you feel God is just being plain ole' mean! 

 

[Tony uk]

Sometimes, it is hard to understand, when devastating things are happening around us or to us. Ill health and other terrible things that to people we love and are close to us, family or friends, or maybe to ourselves. I believe this is where faith and belief come into the matter. As Christians, we believe that God has a plan for us in this world, and into the next. It is still difficult to understand why things happen around us, as they do. Especially when it involves people close to us, such as family. One day, God willing, we will come together in the next world.

[Rain]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

I have toyed with that idea but at that point I might respect God but I couldn’t and shouldn’t trust God absolutely. Laman and Lemuel were then right to doubt whether God could/would deal with Laban and Nephi’s lines about God being able to turn the seas to sand is just ignorant boasting.

I can see that.  For me, the trust is still there, but I understand why it is not for others. 

Personally, I can more trust a God who will do what he can, but can't do it all, than trust one who won't do what he can.

[JVW]

On 8/21/2025 at 5:59 PM, ZealouslyStriving said:

The Psalmist asks it many times.

Shut up.

[Chum]

On 8/21/2025 at 2:58 PM, JVW said:

I was woken by my crying 6 month old at 4 AM. My wife had a migraine and I really wanted to get her back to sleep quickly because of how exhausted I was. Nothing I was trying was working so I said a sincere prayer asking God to just help her fall back to sleep. His response was, "No".

Regarding the relationship between God and his children, the most telling example I know was provided to me by sister Eliza G.

She and her husband Steve had a profoundly developmentally disabled daughter. Katy was extremely difficult; she was often destructive and lashed out regularly. 
After months of ceaseless exhaustion, Eliza had a night out while Steve watched Katy. He settled Katy down for the night so he can study & prep. Shortly thereafter, there's a pungent odor.  Katy has painted her room in feces, corner to corner.

Steve gets Katy cleaned up. He gets her room cleaned up.  He gets her down and goes back to study.  After a bit, it's the same odor, the same cause and the same cleanup. This repeats twice more. Eliza gets home well after midnight and Steve is practically numb.  And while this night was tougher than most, it wasn't an outlier. 

Steve and Eliza had been trying for years to get Katy placed in a group home but they didn't have the resources to pay for it out of pocket. The state had some assistance available (back then) but there was a lot of need and the waiting lists were long.

That night, Eliza led their prayer and she'd had enough. She was a good wife and good mother and good daughter of God.  She made it clear to the Lord that she and Steve had fulfilled their roles and that now was the time for the Lord to step in.  He needed to help Now.  She delivered this to the Lord as an unwavering statement of fact.

[me: I believe Eliza was exercising authority as a wife and mother and that her certain clarity came from that. That's my personal take.]

Regardless and with zero advance warning, social services showed up at their home at 8am the next morning.  They vetted the family and found placement for Katy soon afterward. 

So there's that. 

Late in life I noticed some things.  There's what God responds to.  There's my obedience to teachings.  I found they aren't overlapping like I thought they would. 

Edited August 22, 2025 by Chum