God Is Mean

[bluebell]

5 hours ago, Calm said:

Why would God heal all wounds but his own?

Man is that he might have joy….except for God.  For him, it’s God is that he might have pain.

I think you are making the Section 19 category error, equating godly with forever.

Or maybe conflating infinite with never ending? 

(honestly not sure if I used conflating correctly in that sentence, but I'm going to let it ride)

[Calm]

7 hours ago, bluebell said:

Or maybe conflating infinite with never ending? 

Sounds like you used it correctly to me.

I put “infinite” in the same category as it’s likely the same thing, infinite is an attribute of God just as eternal is.

[Kenngo1969]

Forgive me for not having followed the thread slavishly.  I'm sure at least one of the parents who frequent the Board has made this point already, and I am not a parent.  ("So, shut up, Ken!" Touche! )  Chalk up the duplication, if any, to "great minds thinking alike."  Do we believe God is all-knowing, merciful, kind, just, loving, et cetera, or don't we?  If we believe He is, then, does it not follow, naturally and automatically, that He must have a good reason, or good reasons, for that which He allows to happen to us, even when we do not understand that reason or those reasons?

There are various reasons why something might happen to us (and, of course, by no means is this list exhaustive; there are probably as many "reasons" as there are "people" or "things"):

• As a part of the general test called mortality
• As a part of our specific, specialized, individual mortal test
• One human's inhumanity toward another
• "Hap crappening"
• And so on.  [Ad infinitum : The list is endless]

Yes, I get it: I'm absolutely certain that many of you have experienced trials [are experiencing such trials; will experience them; and so on] that I scarcely can fathom, so, certainly, it's easy for me to say this.  Are we really going to be standing in front of the Lord of the Universe, tsk-tsk-tsking, "Nope!  You just don't [didn't] get it!"?  I'm sure many of you, as parents, have stood by, helplessly, watching your children go through horrible things, and I know that's a pain I can't even fathom.  You know your child eventually is going to be the better for this medical treatment, for example, but that doesn't make it any easier, because it's unimaginably painful for the child.  Does God know we're going to be the better for this "treatment" we get in mortality?   (See, e.g., Mosiah 4:9).

I can't even begin to fathom all of the reasons for the trials that I have experienced (insignificant though they may be), so I'm not going to hazard even the wildest guesses as to reasons for anyone else's trials.   But either we believe that, in some way incomprehensible to us, Christ experienced all of that, or we don't.  Either we believe He took all of that upon Himself, leaving to us only the tutoring portion necessary for us to learn what we came here to mortality to learn, or we don't.  (See, e.g., Doctrine and Covenants 19:16-19, 45:3-5, Alma 7:11-14.) 

One of the most insidious traps that we can fall into is the notion that, if God really loved us, there is no way he would allow [x] to happen to us.  My sister-in-law, God rest [and bless] her soul (see you soon, Rita, but not too soon! ) is one of the finest people I have ever known.  She died a horrible death from cancer.  I wouldn't blame anyone who is even closer to her than I am for screaming, "Why?!", or for wanting to follow the advice of Job's wife to him that he should "curse God, and die."  I don't know "Why?!"  As I say, I can't hazard wild guesses for many of the things that have happened to me, let alone for anything that has happened to anyone else.  But I know where she is.  And I trust that God does know "Why?!"

Each of us must make one's own decision about how much to choose to trust God in any given circumstance.  Each of us must make one's own decision about whether to take the course recommended by Job's wife—to "curse God, and die" (Job 2:9)—or the one taken by Job himself—"Though he slay me, yet will I trust in Him" (Job 13:15).  Your mileage may vary.  Not valid in all areas.  For a limited time only. Not valid with any other offer.  See retailer for details.

As for me, I believe ["Lord, help Thou mine unbelief!" Mark 9:24] that if we stay the course; if we follow the advice the Lord gave to Oliver Cowdery to "continue as [we] commenced" (see Doctrine and Covenants 9:5); if we follow the counsel of [now] President Jeffrey R. Holland to not "give in when the pressure mounts.  Certainly don't give in to that being who is bent on the destruction of your happiness.  Stay the course and see the beauty of life unfold for you." (Holland (1999) "Cast Not Away, Therefore, Your Confidence," 1999 BYU Speeches of the Year, see also Ensign, March 2000); eventually, we will realize the truth of the words quoted by the Apostle Paul to the Corinthians that "Eye hath not seen, neither hath ear heard, neither hath entered into the heart of man the things which God hath prepared for them that love Him" (1 Corinthians 2:9); the truth of Ether's words that "[W]hoso believeth in God might with surety hope for a better world" (Ether 12:4); the truth of the Savior's assurance that whatever we are asked to give in mortality, we will have returned to us for those sacrifices "good measure, pressed down, shaken together, and running over" (Luke 6:38).

I got a [very brief and to the point] blessing under the hands of a member of my Stake Presidency a few months ago.  I had forgotten, before I looked him up, that we had started law school together.  He graduated on time, with the rest of the class, which means he graduated way before I did.  (I'm not sure he knows I even graduated! )  We have an ... interesting ... rapport (in all of the best senses of that word ).  If not in so many words, the message I got was, "Yeah, Ken.  The Lord is mindful of you.  He knows you."

Is that enough?  Well, apparently the Lord thought so.  Who am I to argue with the Lord of the Universe?  There are some [very few!] things I know.  There are many [many!] other things I do not know.  I am determined, simply, to not let the things I do know be held hostage by the things that, as yet, I do not know.  I can do no more but trust in the Lord's assurance to Isaiah that "They shall not be ashamed that wait for me" (Isaiah 49:23).  

[The Nehor]

6 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Forgive me for not having followed the thread slavishly.  I'm sure at least one of the parents who frequent the Board has made this point already, and I am not a parent.  ("So, shut up, Ken!" Touche! )  Chalk up the duplication, if any, to "great minds thinking alike."  Do we believe God is all-knowing, merciful, kind, just, loving, et cetera, or don't we?  If we believe He is, then, does it not follow, naturally and automatically, that He must have a good reason, or good reasons, for that which He allows to happen to us, even when we do not understand that reason or those reasons?

There are various reasons why something might happen to us (and, of course, by no means is this list exhaustive; there are probably as many "reasons" as there are "people" or "things"):

• As a part of the general test called mortality
• As a part of our specific, specialized, individual mortal test
• One human's inhumanity toward another
• "Hap crappening"
• And so on.  [Ad infinitum : The list is endless]

Yes, I get it: I'm absolutely certain that many of you have experienced trials [are experiencing such trials; will experience them; and so on] that I scarcely can fathom, so, certainly, it's easy for me to say this.  Are we really going to be standing in front of the Lord of the Universe, tsk-tsk-tsking, "Nope!  You just don't [didn't] get it!"?  I'm sure many of you, as parents, have stood by, helplessly, watching your children go through horrible things, and I know that's a pain I can't even fathom.  You know your child eventually is going to be the better for this medical treatment, for example, but that doesn't make it any easier, because it's unimaginably painful for the child.  Does God know we're going to be the better for this "treatment" we get in mortality?   (See, e.g., Mosiah 4:9).

I can't even begin to fathom all of the reasons for the trials that I have experienced (insignificant though they may be), so I'm not going to hazard even the wildest guesses as to reasons for anyone else's trials.   But either we believe that, in some way incomprehensible to us, Christ experienced all of that, or we don't.  Either we believe He took all of that upon Himself, leaving to us only the tutoring portion necessary for us to learn what we came here to mortality to learn, or we don't.  (See, e.g., Doctrine and Covenants 19:16-19, 45:3-5, Alma 7:11-14.) 

One of the most insidious traps that we can fall into is the notion that, if God really loved us, there is no way he would allow [x] to happen to us.  My sister-in-law, God rest [and bless] her soul (see you soon, Rita, but not too soon! ) is one of the finest people I have ever known.  She died a horrible death from cancer.  I wouldn't blame anyone who is even closer to her than I am for screaming, "Why?!", or for wanting to follow the advice of Job's wife to him that he should "curse God, and die."  I don't know "Why?!"  As I say, I can't hazard wild guesses for many of the things that have happened to me, let alone for anything that has happened to anyone else.  But I know where she is.  And I trust that God does know "Why?!"

Each of us must make one's own decision about how much to choose to trust God in any given circumstance.  Each of us must make one's own decision about whether to take the course recommended by Job's wife—to "curse God, and die" (Job 2:9)—or the one taken by Job himself—"Though he slay me, yet will I trust in Him" (Job 13:15).  Your mileage may vary.  Not valid in all areas.  For a limited time only. Not valid with any other offer.  See retailer for details.

As for me, I believe ["Lord, help Thou mine unbelief!" Mark 9:24] that if we stay the course; if we follow the advice the Lord gave to Oliver Cowdery to "continue as [we] commenced" (see Doctrine and Covenants 9:5); if we follow the counsel of [now] President Jeffrey R. Holland to not "give in when the pressure mounts.  Certainly don't give in to that being who is bent on the destruction of your happiness.  Stay the course and see the beauty of life unfold for you." (Holland (1999) "Cast Not Away, Therefore, Your Confidence," 1999 BYU Speeches of the Year, see also Ensign, March 2000); eventually, we will realize the truth of the words quoted by the Apostle Paul to the Corinthians that "Eye hath not seen, neither hath ear heard, neither hath entered into the heart of man the things which God hath prepared for them that love Him" (1 Corinthians 2:9); the truth of Ether's words that "[W]hoso believeth in God might with surety hope for a better world" (Ether 12:4); the truth of the Savior's assurance that whatever we are asked to give in mortality, we will have returned to us for those sacrifices "good measure, pressed down, shaken together, and running over" (Luke 6:38).

I got a [very brief and to the point] blessing under the hands of a member of my Stake Presidency a few months ago.  I had forgotten, before I looked him up, that we had started law school together.  He graduated on time, with the rest of the class, which means he graduated way before I did.  (I'm not sure he knows I even graduated! )  We have an ... interesting ... rapport (in all of the best senses of that word ).  If not in so many words, the message I got was, "Yeah, Ken.  The Lord is mindful of you.  He knows you."

Is that enough?  Well, apparently the Lord thought so.  Who am I to argue with the Lord of the Universe?  There are some [very few!] things I know.  There are many [many!] other things I do not know.  I am determined, simply, to not let the things I do know be held hostage by the things that, as yet, I do not know.  I can do no more but trust in the Lord's assurance to Isaiah that "They shall not be ashamed that wait for me" (Isaiah 49:23).  

If we consistently taught this resignation to what you endure in mortality and were told to expect little of God in terms of intervention I would probably trust things more.

It just doesn’t seem consistent with scripture to me where at times it is almost embarrassing all the things God promises to do. I find I can’t be both resigned and stoic when facing trials while also following President Nelson’s teaching to “expect miracles”.

Instead we seem to play games where we jump back and forth. We have people promising that if you do A and B that God will pour blessings upon you and preach patience when someone does A and B and said blessings aren’t there.

One can say it varies by circumstance but then it is not really a promise at all.

[CV75]

28 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

If we consistently taught this resignation to what you endure in mortality and were told to expect little of God in terms of intervention I would probably trust things more.

It just doesn’t seem consistent with scripture to me where at times it is almost embarrassing all the things God promises to do. I find I can’t be both resigned and stoic when facing trials while also following President Nelson’s teaching to “expect miracles”.

Instead we seem to play games where we jump back and forth. We have people promising that if you do A and B that God will pour blessings upon you and preach patience when someone does A and B and said blessings aren’t there.

One can say it varies by circumstance but then it is not really a promise at all.

We have people promising that if you do A and B that God will pour blessings upon you [eventually] and preach patience when someone does A and B and said blessings aren’t there [yet]. Others add that our understanding of these miracles and blessings becomes more spiritually refined as we do A and B. I think these all make sense.

[Kenngo1969]

3 hours ago, The Nehor said:

If we consistently taught this resignation to what you endure in mortality and were told to expect little of God in terms of intervention I would probably trust things more.

Am I resigned  to what has happened to me?  Hmmm.  It's an interesting question.  I would have to ponder it at length and in depth.  I'm not sure that, even then, I would come to any certain conclusions about it.  There have been occasions when I am absolutely certain God has intervened on my behalf, and there have been other occasions when I have felt to cry, "O, God, where art Thou?  And where is the pavilion that covereth Thy hiding place" (Doctrine and Covenants 121:1)? and "My God, my God, why hast Thou forsaken me" (Matthew 27:46)?  I would say that I'm simply much more willing to "roll with the punches." (I don't know that I'm ready to call that "resignation" ...)

3 hours ago, The Nehor said:

It just doesn’t seem consistent with scripture to me where at times it is almost embarrassing all the things God promises to do. I find I can’t be both resigned and stoic when facing trials while also following President Nelson’s teaching to “expect miracles”.

Oh, I expect miracles, all right, but I don't necessarily expect them to happen precisely when or precisely how I think they should.  (That used to drive me nuts, but now, I'm okay with it: Maybe that just means I'm ...  ... nuts.  They say that you're always the last to know about that sort of thing, so ... ) If I thought that God were going to give me precisely what I want [or what I think I need], precisely how I want it, precisely when I [think I] need it, God could hardly be said to move in mysterious ways.  Nephi experienced plenty of miracles, and deliverance, and tender mercies in his life, but he also said, "I know that [God] loveth His children.  Nevertheless, I know not the meaning of all things" (1 Nephi 11:17).

3 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Instead we seem to play games where we jump back and forth. We have people promising that if you do A and B that God will pour blessings upon you and preach patience when someone does A and B and said blessings aren’t there.

This is only the Second Act.  I don't often go to the theater, but, roughly, the First Act is the setup.  It introduces us to characters, and setting, and seeds of potential conflict.  The Second Act is when all of the conflicts are exposed that leave us wondering how things possibly could turn out for the better (how conflicts are resolved) in the Third Act.  Only in the Third Act do we discover how that is so.  Forrest Gump said he didn't know if Lieutenant Dan is right that we all have a destiny or whether his mama is right that "we're all just floatin' around accidental-like on a breeze."  He concluded that maybe both things are happening at the same time.  I think there's a lot of wisdom in that.

3 hours ago, The Nehor said:

One can say it varies by circumstance but then it is not really a promise at all.

Even if a person's life is going absolutely swimmingly, and it seems that all promises God made to one have been fulfilled to a "t" here in the mortal Second Act (how would it be? ) I don't think this mortal life, even at its absolute best, will even so much as hold a candle to what awaits us in the hereafter.

Edited August 31, 2025 by Kenngo1969

[The Nehor]

17 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

As I said, others' mileage may vary, and, Lo and behold!, whodathunk?  Your mileage varies.  Okay.

I wasn’t attempting to discredit your experiences which part of me envies. I am just being my cynical self.

[The Nehor]

47 minutes ago, CV75 said:

We have people promising that if you do A and B that God will pour blessings upon you [eventually] and preach patience when someone does A and B and said blessings aren’t there [yet]. Others add that our understanding of these miracles and blessings becomes more spiritually refined as we do A and B. I think these all make sense.

I don’t generally buy the delayed blessing thing. Firstly because King Benjamin says that blessings for righteousness are immediate and partially because too often it means in some other life or other world and then it becomes untestable. Or at least untestable in the sense that you can’t report back on it to others.

[Kenngo1969]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

I wasn’t attempting to discredit your experiences which part of me envies. I am just being my cynical self.

I don't think you're trying to discredit my experiences.  Yours have been different.  OK.  I just edited my response to you wholesale.  I don't know if you'll see anything worthwhile in it (if not, to each, his or her own), but now that I have edited it, you may want to revisit it.

[Kenngo1969]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

I don’t generally buy the delayed blessing thing. Firstly because King Benjamin says that blessings for righteousness are immediate and partially because too often it means in some other life or other world and then it becomes untestable. Or at least untestable in the sense that you can’t report back on it to others.

Are we really sure that we recognize, in the moment, the blessings we get for what they are?  I'm not sure that we, with our blinkered, finite, mortal perspective, can grasp them fully in the moment.

[CV75]

2 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I don’t generally buy the delayed blessing thing. Firstly because King Benjamin says that blessings for righteousness are immediate and partially because too often it means in some other life or other world and then it becomes untestable. Or at least untestable in the sense that you can’t report back on it to others.

I've had blessings come with all kinds of mortal timing. I wouldn't say my use of "eventual" and "yet" refer to delays; I see that as a matter of expectation and not circumstance. 

When King Benjamin talks about the "immediate" blessing (Mosiah 2: 24), I think he means what he says in the verses that follow: our bodies belong to Him (25); a clear conscience (27); the word and perspective of God (34, 35); eternal mercy (39); blessed and happy state temporally and spiritually (41) -- and I take "temporally and spiritually" to refer to enjoying a blessed and happy state in time and in eternity, despite our circumstances. I know that may seem an unusual interpretation but that is my experience and understanding of the immediacy of God's blessing. The closer I am to Him, the better my relationship, the more immediate He is, regardless of my circumstance. Similarly, the "constant companionship" of the Holy Ghost refers as much as His unchanging reliability, dedication, devotion and loyalty toward us as it does to His immediacy (He is there when we are ready to be so blessed). This is what I report back to others.

With regards to blessings of another kind, those that are viewed as such on our desires and terms, King Benjamin does qualify: "ye may be blessed, prospered, and preserved..." (v. 36).

I appreciate your skepticism, whether it is for the sake of discussion or your personality.

[ZealouslyStriving]

2 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I don’t generally buy the delayed blessing thing. Firstly because King Benjamin says that blessings for righteousness are immediate and partially because too often it means in some other life or other world and then it becomes untestable. Or at least untestable in the sense that you can’t report back on it to others.

Let's examine what King Benjamin says-

Mosiah 2:24

"And secondly, he doth require that ye should do as he hath commanded you; for which if ye do, he doth immediately bless you; and therefore he hath paid you. And ye are still indebted unto him, and are, and will be, forever and ever; therefore, of what have ye to boast?"

** What is the blessing being referred to here? I would posit mercy and forgiveness- not some tangible, physical blessing like a problem-free life, high paying job, perfect health, etc...

[The Nehor]

On 8/31/2025 at 5:47 PM, Kenngo1969 said:

Are we really sure that we recognize, in the moment, the blessings we get for what they are?  I'm not sure that we, with our blinkered, finite, mortal perspective, can grasp them fully in the moment.

Maybe some future me in some future life with some expanded perspective will be able to look back and realize that things were actually wonderful and amazing and joyful. I hope my future self doesn't look back with contempt for current me for not being somehow omniscient. Sometimes I can see how things that seemed bad at the time turned to good eventually but I also see lots of things that seemed good at the time that turned out to be bad. If I extrapolate this it leaves plenty of room for some hope and some cynicism.

On 8/31/2025 at 6:37 PM, CV75 said:

I've had blessings come with all kinds of mortal timing. I wouldn't say my use of "eventual" and "yet" refer to delays; I see that as a matter of expectation and not circumstance. 

When King Benjamin talks about the "immediate" blessing (Mosiah 2: 24), I think he means what he says in the verses that follow: our bodies belong to Him (25);

If this body is a rental I want my money back.

On 8/31/2025 at 6:37 PM, CV75 said:

a clear conscience (27);

I think I have only experienced that when I was very ignorant.

On 8/31/2025 at 6:37 PM, CV75 said:

the word and perspective of God (34, 35); eternal mercy (39); blessed and happy state temporally and spiritually (41) -- and I take "temporally and spiritually" to refer to enjoying a blessed and happy state in time and in eternity, despite our circumstances.

I have too many friends that I think will never experience either.

On 8/31/2025 at 6:37 PM, CV75 said:

I know that may seem an unusual interpretation but that is my experience and understanding of the immediacy of God's blessing. The closer I am to Him, the better my relationship, the more immediate He is, regardless of my circumstance. Similarly, the "constant companionship" of the Holy Ghost refers as much as His unchanging reliability, dedication, devotion and loyalty toward us as it does to His immediacy (He is there when we are ready to be so blessed). This is what I report back to others.

It doesn't seem to be enough.

On 8/31/2025 at 6:37 PM, CV75 said:

With regards to blessings of another kind, those that are viewed as such on our desires and terms, King Benjamin does qualify: "ye may be blessed, prospered, and preserved..." (v. 36).

I appreciate your skepticism, whether it is for the sake of discussion or your personality.

It is usually both of them.

On 8/31/2025 at 7:03 PM, ZealouslyStriving said:

Let's examine what King Benjamin says-

Mosiah 2:24

"And secondly, he doth require that ye should do as he hath commanded you; for which if ye do, he doth immediately bless you; and therefore he hath paid you. And ye are still indebted unto him, and are, and will be, forever and ever; therefore, of what have ye to boast?"

** What is the blessing being referred to here? I would posit mercy and forgiveness- not some tangible, physical blessing like a problem-free life, high paying job, perfect health, etc...

Careful friend, sounds like you are saying that following the commandments means you have earned forgiveness and mercy.

There is a variation of this scripture in my patriarchal blessing. I haven't found either version to be a lot of help.

[CV75]

9 hours ago, The Nehor said:

If this body is a rental I want my money back.

I think I have only experienced that when I was very ignorant.

I have too many friends that I think will never experience either.

It doesn't seem to be enough.

In reply to each, "So far"  

[JVW]

On 8/29/2025 at 4:53 PM, Calm said:

Why would God heal all wounds but his own?

I agree with your sentiment except I wanted to point out that He didn't heal all of His own wounds. He left the scars.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, JVW said:

I agree with your sentiment except I wanted to point out that He didn't heal all of His own wounds. He left the scars.

And he had people touching them…apparently without pain because I don’t think people would have been willing to do it otherwise.  To me that counts as healing though I accept others might not see it that way.

[Kenngo1969]

On 8/21/2025 at 2:35 PM, JVW said:

Yeah lately when people ask me "Why do bad things happen to good people?" My (serious, not joking) answer is now, "Because God loves them."

Yeah, I think, actually, there is a lot to that idea.  After all, Paul did tell the Hebrews, "For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth" (Hebrews 12:6).  And as Paul wrote to the Romans, "(B)ut we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; And patience, experience; and experience, hope: And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us."  Romans 5:3-5.   And John the Revelator did tell us that the Lord said, "As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent” (Revelation 3:19).

And in modern revelation, He said, "And my people must needs be chastened until they learn obedience, if it must needs be, by the things which they suffer” (D&C 105:6).  And, “My people must be tried in all things, that they may be prepared to receive the glory that I have for them, even the glory of Zion; and he that will not bear chastisement is not worthy of my kingdom” (D&C 136:31).  And, “For all those who will not endure chastening, but deny me, cannot be sanctified” (D&C 101:5).

And from the Book of Mormon, "Nevertheless the Lord seeth fit to chasten his people; yea, he trieth their patience and their faith.  Nevertheless—whosoever putteth his trust in him the same shall be lifted up at the last day. Yea, and thus it was with this people” (Mosiah 23:21–22).

I got these scriptures from the following address: Elder D. Todd Christofferson (April 2011) "As Many as I Love, I Rebuke and Chasten," Ensign, accessed on line at the following address, this and other links last accessed on September 6, 2025: 

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2011/04/as-many-as-i-love-i-rebuke-and-chasten?lang=eng.  For the original source of Elder Christofferson's account of President Hugh B. Brown [and the currant bush] as reprinted in The Liahona (March 2002), see The New Era (January 1973) at the following link:  https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/liahona/2002/03/the-currant-bush?lang=eng

I like this, too, from C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity, via GoodReads, last accessed September 6, 2025:

Quote

Imagine yourself as a living house. God comes in to rebuild that house. At first, perhaps, you can understand what He is doing. He is getting the drains right and stopping the leaks in the roof and so on; you knew that those jobs needed doing and so you are not surprised. But presently He starts knocking the house about in a way that hurts abominably and does not seem to make any sense. What on earth is He up to? The explanation is that He is building quite a different house from the one you thought of - throwing out a new wing here, putting on an extra floor there, running up towers, making courtyards. You thought you were being made into a decent little cottage: but He is building a palace. He intends to come and live in it Himself.

 

Edited September 6, 2025 by Kenngo1969

[JVW]

On 9/6/2025 at 5:59 AM, Kenngo1969 said:

Yeah, I think, actually, there is a lot to that idea.  After all, Paul did tell the Hebrews, "For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth" (Hebrews 12:6).  And as Paul wrote to the Romans, "(B)ut we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; And patience, experience; and experience, hope: And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us."  Romans 5:3-5.   And John the Revelator did tell us that the Lord said, "As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent” (Revelation 3:19).

And in modern revelation, He said, "And my people must needs be chastened until they learn obedience, if it must needs be, by the things which they suffer” (D&C 105:6).  And, “My people must be tried in all things, that they may be prepared to receive the glory that I have for them, even the glory of Zion; and he that will not bear chastisement is not worthy of my kingdom” (D&C 136:31).  And, “For all those who will not endure chastening, but deny me, cannot be sanctified” (D&C 101:5).

And from the Book of Mormon, "Nevertheless the Lord seeth fit to chasten his people; yea, he trieth their patience and their faith.  Nevertheless—whosoever putteth his trust in him the same shall be lifted up at the last day. Yea, and thus it was with this people” (Mosiah 23:21–22).

I got these scriptures from the following address: Elder D. Todd Christofferson (April 2011) "As Many as I Love, I Rebuke and Chasten," Ensign, accessed on line at the following address, this and other links last accessed on September 6, 2025: 

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2011/04/as-many-as-i-love-i-rebuke-and-chasten?lang=eng.  For the original source of Elder Christofferson's account of President Hugh B. Brown [and the currant bush] as reprinted in The Liahona (March 2002), see The New Era (January 1973) at the following link:  https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/liahona/2002/03/the-currant-bush?lang=eng

I like this, too, from C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity, via GoodReads, last accessed September 6, 2025:

 

A few weeks ago I sang this little tidbit at church that I think goes nicely with that Book of Mormon verse you shared. From a hymn, "Nearer, my God, to thee, nearer to thee! E'en though it be a cross that raiseth me" Isn't that just lovely imagery. I'm a little closer to heaven because I'm lifted up on a cross. Cheers!

[manol]

2 hours ago, JVW said:

A few weeks ago I sang this little tidbit at church that I think goes nicely with that Book of Mormon verse you shared. From a hymn, "Nearer, my God, to thee, nearer to thee! E'en though it be a cross that raiseth me" Isn't that just lovely imagery. I'm a little closer to heaven because I'm lifted up on a cross. Cheers!

This is why you have to use something other than "it came to me through the LDS Church" as your litmus test.

Does the thought expressed in that hymn, as it hits you, invite or entice you to love God?  (Moroni 7:13)

If not then discard it, because it offers you nothing of value. 

God doesn't want you to hate yourself.  <- Imo that's SCRIPTURE even if it's not (yet) canonized.  Nor does God want you to be filled with hopelessness and despair and bitterness and resentment.   Don't invite darkness to sit at your table just because it showed up dressed as religion. 

In my opinion. 

Edited September 8, 2025 by manol

[JVW]

16 hours ago, manol said:

This is why you have to use something other than "it came to me through the LDS Church" as your litmus test.

That Hymn isn't LDS. I'm sure you're aware that it was played on the Titanic as the ship was going down. That's kind of funny in its own way because their "being lifted" was sinking into the depths.

16 hours ago, manol said:

Does the thought expressed in that hymn, as it hits you, invite or entice you to love God?  (Moroni 7:13)

It invites humility, and I think humility is a necessary prerequisite to loving God or learning how to love Him. But no, I don't think I felt invited to love God, though it is a beautiful hymn it is somewhat somber. It's like when I requested closing my mom's funeral with "God Be With You Till We Meet Again" (also not an exclusively LDS hymn). Does that hymn invite me to love God? Not necessarily. Does it make me cry and has the tune grown on me over the years? Absolutely.

16 hours ago, manol said:

If not then discard it, because it offers you nothing of value.

Agreed.

16 hours ago, manol said:

God doesn't want you to hate yourself.  <- Imo that's SCRIPTURE even if it's not (yet) canonized. 

I'm glad that's been a helpful notion for you.

16 hours ago, manol said:

Nor does God want you to be filled with hopelessness and despair and bitterness and resentment.  

How do you figure that?

16 hours ago, manol said:

Don't invite darkness to sit at your table just because it showed up dressed as religion. 

For not wanting anyone to be filled with hopelessness or despair or bitterness or resentment He sure allows a lot of people to feel that way for many years. He even let Jesus feel despair on the cross when He cried out, "Father, Father, why have you forsaken me?". He did it with Alma the younger in the Book of Mormon when he was "harrowed up" to the greatest degree and was in the depths of despair before being rescued. Even in Joseph Smith's sacred grove experience, before He (allegedly) appeared to Joseph, the devil covered Joseph in darkness and bound his tongue.

Even excepting all of that, I'm reminded of a really great man, Matt, I met on my mission. He was a homicide detective and was married to a Messianic Jew. One time he read to me from Ether 12 starting in verse 23. Moroni was complaining about being bad at writing to which God responds with the famous verse, "If men come unto me I will show them their weakness. I give unto men weakness that they may be humble ... etc." and then Moroni is comforted and remarks about the power of faith and how God laid down His life for the world. Matt then stated this general sentiment, "I see death every day. We will all die. Moroni was complaining about his inability to write and God responded with, 'that's nice, but you have a bigger problem. One day you're going to die, but don't worry, I took care of that for you.' After Moroni gains that perspective you will notice that he doesn't focus anymore on his writing, he focuses on the greatness of God."

We all have one foot in the grave. God designed life to be that way. It is part of the human condition. And it leads many to hopelessness, despair, bitterness, and resentment. As a seeker of truth and disciple of Jesus, would I rather die by being cast into a figurative pit, burned at a figurative stake, or raised up on a figurative cross? So, to me, those song lyrics were just addressing this cruel reality we live in, I didn't feel particularly dreary because of them, at least not any more than I have been in this wrestle with God that I've been having.

16 hours ago, manol said:

In my opinion. 

Right back at'cha.

[manol]

23 hours ago, JVW said:

That Hymn isn't LDS. I'm sure you're aware that it was played on the Titanic as the ship was going down. That's kind of funny in its own way because their "being lifted" was sinking into the depths.

I thought you had heard it in an LDS church. My bad.

 

23 hours ago, JVW said:

How do you figure that?

My conclusions largely come from applying Moroni Chapter 7 and Alma Chapter 32 to ideas which originate outside the LDS canon. Send me a private message if you'd like specifics.

I think each of us has been called to be "the light of the world", at least to the extent we are able to in the moment.  And I don't think we can give what we do not have.  So I don't think God wants us to be filled darkness in the form of hopelessness, despair, bitterness, and resentment.  Obviously this doesn't mean we never experience these (and other) forms of darkness!  Imo I think it means we don't take the path of least resistance and allow them to be our "default mode"; and if (when) that happens, we choose again. 

 

23 hours ago, JVW said:

For not wanting anyone to be filled with hopelessness or despair or bitterness or resentment He sure allows a lot of people to feel that way for many years. He even let Jesus feel despair on the cross when He cried out, "Father, Father, why have you forsaken me?". He did it with Alma the younger in the Book of Mormon when he was "harrowed up" to the greatest degree and was in the depths of despair before being rescued. Even in Joseph Smith's sacred grove experience, before He (allegedly) appeared to Joseph, the devil covered Joseph in darkness and bound his tongue.

Even excepting all of that, I'm reminded of a really great man, Matt, I met on my mission. He was a homicide detective and was married to a Messianic Jew. One time he read to me from Ether 12 starting in verse 23. Moroni was complaining about being bad at writing to which God responds with the famous verse, "If men come unto me I will show them their weakness. I give unto men weakness that they may be humble ... etc." and then Moroni is comforted and remarks about the power of faith and how God laid down His life for the world. Matt then stated this general sentiment, "I see death every day. We will all die. Moroni was complaining about his inability to write and God responded with, 'that's nice, but you have a bigger problem. One day you're going to die, but don't worry, I took care of that for you.' After Moroni gains that perspective you will notice that he doesn't focus anymore on his writing, he focuses on the greatness of God."

In my opinion: If there is something we need to learn through, we will have that lesson.  I think this applies: “All things give you experience, and work together for your good.”

Imo everything that happens to us, and even everything that we observe, offers us the opportunity to choose how we will respond to it.  In each of the instances you cited, the person chose to respond to what was happening to them in what was perhaps the highest way they could in the moment.  We can do that under far more mundane circumstances.  Every little time we choose light over darkness, or choose love over fear, or choose healing over retribution, to the best of our ability in the moment, is imo a huge victory. 

Just to be clear, it is not my place to say what constitutes “the best of someone's ability in the moment.” That is above my pay grade. I have no idea what challenges a person may have chosen to experience in their earth life.

[The Nehor]

On 9/2/2025 at 8:36 AM, CV75 said:

In reply to each, "So far"  

True. Anyone who can look at a situation and say that it can’t get any worse clearly just lacks imagination.

[Kenngo1969]

On 9/8/2025 at 2:15 PM, JVW said:

A few weeks ago I sang this little tidbit at church that I think goes nicely with that Book of Mormon verse you shared. From a hymn, "Nearer, my God, to thee, nearer to thee! E'en though it be a cross that raiseth me" Isn't that just lovely imagery. I'm a little closer to heaven because I'm lifted up on a cross. Cheers!

And [while in no way am I attempting to discount your insight, which I think is valid and a good one], perhaps most importantly, because Someone Else was lifted up upon a cross, as well!  

[teddyaware]

On 9/8/2025 at 4:15 PM, JVW said:

A few weeks ago I sang this little tidbit at church that I think goes nicely with that Book of Mormon verse you shared. From a hymn, "Nearer, my God, to thee, nearer to thee! E'en though it be a cross that raiseth me" Isn't that just lovely imagery. I'm a little closer to heaven because I'm lifted up on a cross. Cheers!

The idea and the image of being crucified with Christ is not a new one. It comes straight out of the New Testament. And not coincidentally, it’s the veritable theme of the higher ordinances of the gospel.

6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. (Romans 6)

20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. (Galatians 2)

24 And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. (Galatians 5)

27 And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple. (Luke 14)

And there are at least 8 more verses of scripture based on the theme.