A better way to talk to/about those who have left the church?

[the narrator]

1 hour ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

Thank you for proving my point.

You had a point? What was it?

[the narrator]

54 minutes ago, let’s roll said:

We are sons and daughters of God, not of a church or the Church.  Christ saves, not a church or the Church.   Spiritual power comes to God’s sons and daughters through their faith in Deity, not in a church or the Church.  God utilizes prophets.  We identify who He has chosen as His prophets by asking Him, not those who proclaim to be prophets.  The same is true regarding the teachings of those who identify as prophets.  

Yeah, it's always been that way, but:

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those are all supposed to be as instructed by The Church  and must align with The Church's doctrines or beliefs. So while God may in theory be above The Church, it is The Church who defines who God is, and what may or man not be of God.

 

[Calm]

17 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Lots of Latter-day Saints (including yours truly) are in some deep trouble according to that metric! 

Do we necessarily believe someone’s soul is in jeopardy if we don’t reach out to them?  Seems to me we believe God will judge others by the choices they make with the knowledge they are given and if they aren’t given the knowledge because of someone else’s weakness, it can’t doom their souls.  

Also we believe chances will come after death if they didn’t come in mortality.

[Calm]

On 4/17/2025 at 9:02 PM, Peacefully said:

When my son told me he wasn’t sure if there was a God, I had a twisted sense of relief that he wasn’t leaving my church for another church. It’s been many years now, and he is still agnostic and his kids are being raised without a belief in Jesus Christ or God. What I wouldn’t give to have them belong to any Christ-based church so they would have that foundation. AFAIK, all of our other kids believe in Christ and have a relationship with him. So while I don’t think of myself as superior for believing in Christ, I do feel blessed to have that knowledge and I am sad for my son and grandkids who don’t have that relationship. But I don’t think about it too much these days. I just love them as they are. 

My daughter is agnostic (which is very easy for me to understand because she hasn’t had the opportunity to understand what the spirit feels like in her adolescence and adult life since her medical issues affect her mental and emotional states so much, so how can she trust any internal state is due to something she can’t experience in other ways?).  I deeply, deeply wish it wasn’t so because the knowledge of God’s love is so comforting to me.  It is the only thing that hurts me about her not being a believer because I believe the Spirit has told me she will get to where she needs to in the end, I am not to fret over that, but to allow her to walk her own path.

I am going to add that I don’t see myself superior to her just because I believe that what I experience is the Spirit.  She is a good woman who cares about others and I believe God is supporting and guiding her even if she isn’t aware of it.  I have experienced not being able to sense the Spirit, but I never doubted God wasn’t there for me using the Spirit to help me in ways I was unaware of, so why wouldn’t it be the same for my daughter and everyone else?  Then of course there is the Light of Christ doctrine which says such is available to all.  Perhaps my daughter is even superior to me in her righteousness because she chooses to do right without the conviction of God’s love.

Edited April 19, 2025 by Calm

[Peacefully]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

My daughter is agnostic (which is very easy for me to understand because she hasn’t had the opportunity to understand what the spirit feels like since her medical issues affect her mental and emotional states so much, so how can she trust any internal state is due to something she can’t experience in other ways?).  I deeply, deeply wish it wasn’t so because the knowledge of God’s love is so comforting to me.  It is the only thing that hurts me about her not being a believer because I believe the Spirit has told me she will get to where she needs to in the end, I am not to fret over that, but to allow her to walk her own path.

I believe my son felt the spirit when he was young, but as he got older his logical mind took over and didn’t leave him any room to believe in things unseen.
 

It is not the church that gives me comfort. it is my belief and faith in Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ. My mama’s heart wishes my son also had that comfort but I guess he finds it in other ways. 

Edited April 18, 2025 by Peacefully

[Calm]

49 minutes ago, Peacefully said:

I believe my son felt the spirit when he was young, but as he got older his logical mind took over and didn’t leave him any room to believe in things unseen.

I think this is true of my daughter, but she got diabetes when she was 12 which aggravated her sleep disorder and anxiety, sending her into  withdrawal and denial (about her health, not God) for several years.  By the time she shared she no longer believed it was a decade or so after that and my guess is the trauma rewrote some early memories (base this on a few other things she says that contradicts what we saw).

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. it is my belief and faith in Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ

Same here.  Though the unique teachings about the afterlife of the Church are what help me endure and not get overwhelmed by a sense of loss of all my dreams for myself and my family due to health.  Also helps me not get angry at the doctors who made it so much worse than it needed to be.  I don’t know if I would have that anticipation that it’s not too late to hold on to in other Christian faiths, though perhaps it would be replaced with it doesn’t matter because the afterlife will be so beautiful I won’t miss anything.

Edited April 18, 2025 by Calm

[Calm]

6 hours ago, JVW said:

Speaking the truth as you see it will always result in a good decision

No, it doesn’t always in my experience. You need to consider where the other person is and how they will likely receive it or even are able to receive it as well.

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The most loving way to treat people is to be honest with them.

I am not saying one should lie, but sometimes it’s better to not share everything or even very much even if you know it will lead to a misunderstanding (mainly in cases where the other’s reaction would be hurt and defensive because their experiences have led them to read certain things as threats or criticisms/attacks).

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But dude's comment about people trying to help him save his soul is anti-Christ, because He was literally describing what Christ spends every waking moment doing to help each of us.

Since he was criticizing those who wouldn’t reach out if they thought his soul was in danger of going to hell, I don’t see why you see that as anti-Christ.

Edited April 18, 2025 by Calm

[Calm]

21 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

It's interesting to read the Lord's own words on these matters.

Definitely (whether Christ talked to Joseph in English for the D&C revelation or Joseph reconstructed the knowledge he received into English through the gift of revelation as he would have to have done with the Nephite language because Christ obviously wasn’t speaking in English in his conversations with the disciples, so it’s not his actual words, but a translation).

I also know from experience everyone will get something different from reading scriptures, so I find it useful to hear people’s explanations of what they think scriptures mean when they share them rather than just having my own point of view experience so I have a better chance at seeing new and valuable ideas/teachings from these verses.

Edited April 19, 2025 by Calm

[MrShorty]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

believe the Spirit has told me she will get to where she needs to in the end, I am not to fret over that, but to allow her to walk her own path.

I think Pres. Eyring said something substantially similar in his talk this GC, too. I have found the same trust in God and His ability to redeem helpful in this topic. Sometimes I lean into universalist thinking and sometimes I lean into there are more paths to God than the narrow LDS path, and those clash with some church rhetoric, but I find that leaning into trusting God to redeem people inside and outside the church helps me frame any discussion more equally. I can say that I believe something without the need to claim that loved ones who don't believe like I do are destined for lesser kingdoms.

[Calm]

3 hours ago, MrShorty said:

I think Pres. Eyring said something substantially similar in his talk this GC, too. I have found the same trust in God and His ability to redeem helpful in this topic. Sometimes I lean into universalist thinking and sometimes I lean into there are more paths to God than the narrow LDS path, and those clash with some church rhetoric, but I find that leaning into trusting God to redeem people inside and outside the church helps me frame any discussion more equally. I can say that I believe something without the need to claim that loved ones who don't believe like I do are destined for lesser kingdoms.

I think my parents did me a solid as I don’t remember ever feeling someone who didn’t believe like I did was ultimately headed to a lesser kingdom.  Not that I never have been judgmental, I can be very judgmental and arrogant at times, especially when I was younger, but I judged the kingdoms based on how people treated others, not on their beliefs.  I think I just never believed that God wouldn’t include good, loving people when he was inviting people to exaltation.  My parents emphasized a lot that in the next life we would still be learning new things, Mom was excited about it, so I think I probably latched quite early onto Spirit Prison would provide the opportunity to hear the truth.

Plus it just has never made sense to me that anyone would refuse to accept God or reject offered blessings, why would they choose to suffer instead of repent when they knew the truth.  I can theoretically discuss why people might not fully accept the Atonement, but it still feels like nonsense.  Given eternity, surely even hate and arrogance wears out and people will look for something better and start opening up to love?  Satan and the others extending rebellion throughout eternity is just stupid behaviour and surely even they will be smart enough to eventually give it up if only because of boredom.

 I also don’t understand how one would choose to do or be evil, be so willing to hurt others (I don’t think I have ever wanted to hurt someone, though I know that some of my choices will and still make those choices because of greater need), so when evil happens my gut reasoning is it must be a mental or emotional defect due to mortality because God wouldn’t make our spirits broken and if so, it will of course be absent in the next life and they won’t take pleasure in people’s pain.

I am not saying I am right, just that I am unable to understand how I could be wrong (like not being sure if I understand how to solve a math problem rather than assuming the answer provided is wrong because the answer I think is right is different).  I am definitely not assuming I know enough to understand people’s eternal natures.

Edited April 19, 2025 by Calm

[Bernard Gui]

 In these matters it always comes down to

 

Quote

 

It is important to note that prior to the organization of the Church, heavenly messengers had conferred the Aaronic and Melchizedek Priesthoods upon the Prophet Joseph and had given him keys of both priesthoods. These keys gave Joseph Smith authority to organize the Church in 1830.

Then in the Kirtland Temple in 1836, the conferral of these three additional priesthood keys—namely, keys of the gathering of Israel, keys of the gospel of Abraham, and keys of the sealing power—was essential. These keys authorized Joseph Smith—and all succeeding Presidents of the Lord’s Church—to gather Israel on both sides of the veil, to bless all covenant children with the blessings of Abraham, to place a ratifying seal on priesthood ordinances and covenants, and to seal families eternally. The power of these priesthood keys is infinite and breathtaking.

Consider how your life would be different if priesthood keys had not been restored to the earth. Without priesthood keys, you could not be endowed with the power of God.Without priesthood keys, the Church could serve only as a significant teaching and humanitarian organization but not much more. Without priesthood keys, none of us would have access to essential ordinances and covenants that bind us to our loved ones eternally and allow us eventually to live with God.

Priesthood keys distinguish The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints from any other organization on earth. Many other organizations can and do make your life better here in mortality. But no other organization can and will influence your life after death.

Priesthood keys give us the authority to extend all of the blessings promised to Abraham to every covenant-keeping man and woman. Temple work makes these exquisite blessings available to all of God’s children, regardless of where or when they lived or now live. Let us rejoice that priesthood keys are once again on the earth!  Russel M Nelson, April 2024

It always comes down to Priesthood keys.

 

[bluebell]

22 hours ago, the narrator said:

It's always been that way, but also: 

 

We'll have to agree to disagree on that.   

[bluebell]

22 hours ago, the narrator said:

No. Maybe I haven't been clear, but I'm not discussing holding beliefs, but rather that way that one asserts those beliefs against another. So if Mis is constantly telling you that they are right and you are wrong because God told them, then I'd say they would need to humble themselves and respect that others can have different and opposing subject experience justifying their beliefs, for which there is no objective measure to arbitrate between the two--except for maybe a battle over whose prayers can quickest ignite a bushel of wood.

Ok, I think this is where the confusion for me has come from.  Because from the beginning of our interaction--the post about people who sincerely believe one path is better than another--I never implied that those people were asserting their beliefs in an overbearing way.  So I was confused about why you claimed they needed to work on empathy and humility just for believing.

I understand now that you assumed I meant "constantly telling you that they are right and you are wrong, etc." but that was not where I was coming from when I asked that question.

[MrShorty]

4 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

It always comes down to Priesthood keys.

In what way? It often seems to me that the alleged existence of some kind of special key given by God to a group is the source of the arrogance and such that leads to the problem. Think of the Zoramites and their Rameumptom and their prayer extolling their own privileged position over their neighbors. Consider Mis belief that those same priesthood keys were past down through the ages Pope to Pope and currently reside in Pope Francis, contrary to our own beliefs about apostasy and the need for restoration of those same keys.

I might go so far as to say that priesthood keys are tangential to the issue I'm seeing here. How does one both believe that God has granted them special privileges, keys, authority, or whatever, without developing an arrogant or overbearing attitude? How does one believe that God has granted them special status, and treat neighbors, friends, dissentors, etc. as peers and equals who may also be redeemed by God?

[MrShorty]

40 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Because from the beginning of our interaction--the post about people who sincerely believe one path is better than another--I never implied that those people were asserting their beliefs in an overbearing way. 

Maybe at the end of the day, the two things are not mutually exclusive? Can one sincerely believe in the superiority of their path, and treat others as equals whose paths are valid even if subordinate to theirs? What might that look like?

To me, it often seems that, for LDS anyway, this looks like all other "lesser" paths will eventually intersect with ours (in the next life, if necessary). Perhaps I am trying to lean to much into this quasi-universality, but I wonder if we could/should lean more into this. Of course, there are some, like Jews who object to blanket baptisms for the dead of non-relatives, who can still take exception to our private beliefs, but does trusting that God eventually brings everyone to our path help at all?

[bluebell]

14 minutes ago, MrShorty said:

Maybe at the end of the day, the two things are not mutually exclusive? Can one sincerely believe in the superiority of their path, and treat others as equals whose paths are valid even if subordinate to theirs? What might that look like?

To me, it often seems that, for LDS anyway, this looks like all other "lesser" paths will eventually intersect with ours (in the next life, if necessary). Perhaps I am trying to lean to much into this quasi-universality, but I wonder if we could/should lean more into this. Of course, there are some, like Jews who object to blanket baptisms for the dead of non-relatives, who can still take exception to our private beliefs, but does trusting that God eventually brings everyone to our path help at all?

Maybe part of the problem is talking about it as if it's "our" path?  It's God's path and we should probably be more careful to infer that.  Because it's not about bring people to our path, it's about how God brought us to His path and how He'll do the same for everyone else too if that's what they want.

I think the problem is when the emphasis is on being right.  Ultimately it's not about whose path God is on, it's about trying to be on God's path.  But we are humans and flawed and it's a struggle to hold such a nuanced perspective without falling into pride and self righteous territory.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

think the problem is when the emphasis is on being right.  Ultimately it's not about whose path God is on, it's about trying to be on God's path.  But we are humans and flawed and it's a struggle to hold such a nuanced perspective without falling into pride and self righteous territory.

I think this distinction is essential.  If someone believes their current path is God’s only road to heaven that others eventually need to intersect with rather than the best path available at this point and future adjustments will be needed to move even their path to the destination God desires for us, I think this can lead to a lack of self examination/questioning, which lack tends to support our human inclinations for arrogance and self righteousness.  If otoh, someone sees their path as good, even the best available, but still expects it’s going to need correction/improvement as time goes on, I think this belief tends to support humility and openness, both to the Spirit and to others….though one might hold the idea correction/improvement is only going to come from God and anyone not of their same beliefs has nothing of value to add to their path and that could lead to arrogance, etc.

Edited April 19, 2025 by Calm

[the narrator]

2 hours ago, bluebell said:

I understand now that you assumed I meant "constantly telling you that they are right and you are wrong, etc." but that was not where I was coming from when I asked that question.

Any confusion was probably the fault of my end. I've only been jumping in here periodically and haven't had time to read through the full thread for better context.

[Bernard Gui]

3 hours ago, MrShorty said:

In what way? It often seems to me that the alleged existence of some kind of special key given by God to a group is the source of the arrogance and such that leads to the problem. Think of the Zoramites and their Rameumptom and their prayer extolling their own privileged position over their neighbors. Consider Mis belief that those same priesthood keys were past down through the ages Pope to Pope and currently reside in Pope Francis, contrary to our own beliefs about apostasy and the need for restoration of those same keys.

I might go so far as to say that priesthood keys are tangential to the issue I'm seeing here. How does one both believe that God has granted them special privileges, keys, authority, or whatever, without developing an arrogant or overbearing attitude? How does one believe that God has granted them special status, and treat neighbors, friends, dissentors, etc. as peers and equals who may also be redeemed by God?

Arrogance:

Quote

Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

And [Jesus] said unto the children of men,”Follow thou me.”

The Father said, “Repent ye, repent ye, and be baptized in the name of my Beloved Son.”

The Son [said] unto me, “He that is baptized in my name, to him will the Father give the Holy Ghost, like unto me; wherefore, follow me, and do the things which ye have seen me do.”

The voice of the Son [said ]unto me, “After ye have repented of your sins, and witnessed unto the Father that ye are willing to keep my commandments, by the baptism of water, and have received the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost, and can speak with a new tongue, yea, even with the tongue of angels, and after this should deny me, it would have been better for you that ye had not known me.”

A voice from the Father [said], “Yea, the words of my Beloved are true and faithful. He that endureth to the end, the same shall be saved.”

Wherefore, if ye shall press forward, feasting upon the word of Christ, and endure to the end, behold, thus saith the Father,” Ye shall have eternal life.”

This is the way; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end.

 

Edited April 19, 2025 by Bernard Gui
,

[Senator]

8 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Arrogance:

 

How is your response relevant to MrShorty’s comments?

[Bernard Gui]

9 minutes ago, Senator said:

How is your response relevant to MrShorty’s comments?

Is it not arrogant to claim to be the only way, truth, and life?

[let’s roll]

On 4/18/2025 at 1:52 PM, the narrator said:

On 4/18/2025 at 12:57 PM, let’s roll said:

We are sons and daughters of God, not of a church or the Church.  Christ saves, not a church or the Church.   Spiritual power comes to God’s sons and daughters through their faith in Deity, not in a church or the Church.  God utilizes prophets.  We identify who He has chosen as His prophets by asking Him, not those who proclaim to be prophets.  The same is true regarding the teachings of those who identify as prophets.  

Yeah, it's always been that way, but:

Quote

  Quote

those are all supposed to be as instructed by The Church  and must align with The Church's doctrines or beliefs. So while God may in theory be above The Church, it is The Church who defines who God is, and what may or man not be of God.

 

You may have missed, or misunderstood, the last sentence of my comment.  We identify the truth of teachings and doctrine of churches, including the Church, by asking Him.  No church, and no church leader, is the final arbiter of truth.  A leader may be asked by God to share a message from Deity and with that message state “thus sayeth the Lord.”  In such cases, it is a manifestation of worship and discipleship, not a demonstration of a lack of faith, to take that message to Him and ask it to be imprinted upon our hearts.  Mortals, including prophets, must align with Deity, not vice versa.  And since life eternal is defined as knowing Deity, I trust Church leaders understand that their teachings and goods works are never meant to supplant the personal relationship with Deity that God and His Son desire for each of us.

[Rain]

27 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Is it not arrogant to claim to be the only way, truth, and life?

Arrogant: having or revealing an exaggerated sense of one's own importance or abilities.

Are you saying you believe He was exagerating his own importance when He said that?

Edited April 19, 2025 by Rain

[MustardSeed]

IMO arrogance is often in the delivery.  I can know I’m the best there is and still be open hearted to others and their skills and knowledge. Most of the time arrogance is accompanied by guardedness and a certain tone. It’s way more fun to do life without the air of arrogance- imo. 

[manol]

1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

Is it not arrogant to claim to be the only way, truth, and life?

Regarding Christ's claim of being "the way, the truth, and the life":

Of course it's not arrogant for Christ to make that claim.

Imo it is a VERY DIFFERENT THING for a religion to claim or imply that they are the only ones who offer "the way, the truth, and the life". 

To be more specific, imo that scripture neither says nor implies that "the covenant path of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is, or is the only way to access, the way, the truth, and the life." 

My understanding is that Christ employs no gate-keeper (2 Nephi 9:41). 

Edited April 19, 2025 by manol