A better way to talk to/about those who have left the church?

[bluebell]

2 minutes ago, the narrator said:

I simply mean to gain some epistemic humility--to recognize that no matter how clear and privileged they may believe the certainty of their beliefs to be, that any knowledge gained through a private and thus entirely subjective experience is just that.

I'm still not sure if I understand but I'm trying.

What if they don't believe their beliefs are privileged even though they believe they are correct?  And, why does acknowledging the subjectiveness of an experience negate the ability to believe it is the best answer?

[JVW]

12 hours ago, MrShorty said:

Somewhere on the extreme, it is an interesting question. At what point does real intervention become necessary? I find myself generally convinced that alcohol serves no good purpose and would like to discourage my loved ones from drinking it with or without a religious reason to do so. However, I generally find myself allowing them to decide for themselves and trusting that, if they choose to imbibe, they will do so responsibly. However, at what point (hypothetically) should I determine that they have entered the realm of alcoholic or have started mixing with harder drugs and override my live and let live attitude and intervene? I don't know. It seems clear that there is a point where my certainty that they are doing themselves (and maybe their family) real immediate harm overrides my desire to let people live their own lives. I could conceivably see the same kind of thing with a religious cult that seems destined to lead a family member into some very real harm or danger in the here and now (not just harm/danger for the next life). Maybe a balancing act between the degree of danger and the extent of consequences (losing a few dollars vs. losing their life savings) and my proximity to them and so on.

I think the point in which you speak your mind and intervene is the point at which you believe that they are hurting themselves or being stupid. Speaking the truth as you see it will always result in a good decision. And how many times have you heard someone say "I prefer people who are jerks but are straight up with me. I wish I knew what people really thought about me instead of pretending to be nice while gossiping about me behind my back." that sort of thing. The most loving way to treat people is to be honest with them.

27 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I agree.

Last night I was looking at the "scripture of the day" on the LDS circles app and a few scriptures down (it was in D&C 63) it talked about "those who desire in their hearts, in meekness, to warn sinners to repentance..." and it seemed like one good answer to the questions of this thread.  

It's not the belief or even certainty of belief that seems to cause the problems.  It's a lack of humility and meekness in those beliefs, especially when interacting with others.

I read something in City Weekly 20 years ago that has always stuck with me. I don't know how true it is, but I like the idea behind it. The greek word for meekness was praus which was also the word used to describe a warhorse. The warhorse represented an incredible amount of power kept under rigorous control.

In our church we believe that we contain God's authority and power. Having the power of God is very risky because power corrupts. This is where meekness comes in and why God has such strict requirements in order to enter covenants with Him. If we can't prove that we are meek, then gaining power will hurt us instead of help. And if we aren't meek, then that's where the condescending attitude comes in that puts people off.

Also, Penn of Penn and Teller is an arrogant jerk (he is prideful, which is whatever, but I wouldn't want him as my neighbor). I think he is a fantastic entertainer, and they've performed some of the best magic that I've ever seen. But dude's comment about people trying to help him save his soul is anti-Christ, because He was literally describing what Christ spends every waking moment doing to help each of us.

[ZealouslyStriving]

25 minutes ago, the narrator said:

I simply mean to gain some epistemic humility--to recognize that no matter how clear and privileged they may believe the certainty of their beliefs to be, that any knowledge gained through a private and thus entirely subjective experience is just that.

Soooo... Shut up and stop making exclusive truth claims?

[the narrator]

49 minutes ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

Soooo... Shut up and stop making exclusive truth claims?

No. Simply offer them the respect that you want for yourself. But if you can't do that, then, yes, shut up if you want to still have a relationship with them.

[the narrator]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

What if they don't believe their beliefs are privileged even though they believe they are correct?

A religious belief attained through a spiritual experience is by definition a personal and privileged belief. (And I would say that a religious belief not confirmed through a spiritual [or similar] experience is not a religious belief at all.)

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

And, why does acknowledging the subjectiveness of an experience negate the ability to believe it is the best answer?

I didn't say it negates the ability for them to believe it is the best answer. Rather, that it just implies a superiority over the other by assuming that their privileged and subjective experience is greater than the others' or that the former's subject experience trumps the other's means of attaining their own beliefs due to some superiority of the religious believer.

In other words, to essentially tell someone, "God told me I am right and you are wrong" directly assumes a superiority of the other.

Edited April 18, 2025 by the narrator

[california boy]

If we are suppose to pattern our lives after Christ, I have a question to all of those who seem to think that organized religion and "their church" is paramount in how they live their lives.  The question I have is,  do you believe Christ attended church every week?  Was participating in organized religion a key part of the example He left?  Even after the organization that you think of as "Christ's Church", what do you think his participation in that church was like?

Just trying to understand what you believe church was to Christ?  How did he teach us to live that part of your life?

[Bernard Gui]

2 Nephi 31

1 And now I, Nephi, make an end of my prophesying unto you, my beloved brethren. And I cannot write but a few things, which I know must surely come to pass; neither can I write but a few of the words of my brother Jacob.

2 Wherefore, the things which I have written sufficeth me, save it be a few words which I must speak concerning the doctrine of Christ; wherefore, I shall speak unto you plainly, according to the plainness of my prophesying.

3 For my soul delighteth in plainness; for after this manner doth the Lord God work among the children of men. For the Lord God giveth light unto the understanding; for he speaketh unto men according to their language, unto their understanding.

4 Wherefore, I would that ye should remember that I have spoken unto you concerning that prophet which the Lord showed unto me, that should baptize the Lamb of God, which should take away the sins of the world.

5 And now, if the Lamb of God, he being holy, should have need to be baptized by water, to fulfil all righteousness, O then, how much more need have we, being unholy, to be baptized, yea, even by water!

6 And now, I would ask of you, my beloved brethren, wherein the Lamb of God did fulfil all righteousness in being baptized by water?

7 Know ye not that he was holy? But notwithstanding he being holy, he showeth unto the children of men that, according to the flesh he humbleth himself before the Father, and witnesseth unto the Father that he would be obedient unto him in keeping his commandments.

8 Wherefore, after he was baptized with water the Holy Ghost descended upon him in the form of a dove.

9 And again, it showeth unto the children of men the straitness of the path, and the narrowness of the gate, by which they should enter, he having set the example before them.

10 And he said unto the children of men: Follow thou me. Wherefore, my beloved brethren, can we follow Jesus save we shall be willing to keep the commandments of the Father?

11 And the Father said: Repent ye, repent ye, and be baptized in the name of my Beloved Son.

12 And also, the voice of the Son came unto me, saying: He that is baptized in my name, to him will the Father give the Holy Ghost, like unto me; wherefore, follow me, and do the things which ye have seen me do.

13 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, I know that if ye shall follow the Son, with full purpose of heart, acting no hypocrisy and no deception before God, but with real intent, repenting of your sins, witnessing unto the Father that ye are willing to take upon you the name of Christ, by baptism—yea, by following your Lord and your Savior down into the water, according to his word, behold, then shall ye receive the Holy Ghost; yea, then cometh the baptism of fireand of the Holy Ghost; and then can ye speak with the tongue of angels, and shout praises unto the Holy One of Israel.

14 But, behold, my beloved brethren, thus came the voice of the Son unto me, saying: After ye have repented of your sins, and witnessed unto the Father that ye are willing to keep my commandments, by the baptism of water, and have received the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost, and can speak with a new tongue, yea, even with the tongue of angels, and after this should deny me, it would have been better for you that ye had not known me.

15 And I heard a voice from the Father, saying: Yea, the words of my Beloved are true and faithful. He that endureth to the end, the same shall be saved.

16 And now, my beloved brethren, I know by this that unless a man shall endure to the end, in following the example of the Son of the living God, he cannot be saved.

17 Wherefore, do the things which I have told you I have seen that your Lord and your Redeemer should do; for, for this cause have they been shown unto me, that ye might know the gate by which ye should enter. For the gate by which ye should enter is repentance and baptism by water; and then cometh a remission of your sins by fire and by the Holy Ghost.

18 And then are ye in this strait and narrow path which leads to eternal life; yea, ye have entered in by the gate; ye have done according to the commandments of the Father and the Son; and ye have received the Holy Ghost, which witnesses of the Father and the Son, unto the fulfilling of the promise which he hath made, that if ye entered in by the way ye should receive.

19 And now, my beloved brethren, after ye have gotten into this strait and narrow path, I would ask if all is done? Behold, I say unto you, Nay; for ye have not come thus far save it were by the word of Christ with unshaken faith in him, relying wholly upon the merits of him who is mighty to save.

20 Wherefore, ye must press forward with a steadfastness in Christ, having a perfect brightness of hope, and a love of God and of all men. Wherefore, if ye shall press forward, feasting upon the word of Christ, and endure to the end, behold, thus saith the Father: Ye shall have eternal life.

21 And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the way; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen.

[the narrator]

5 minutes ago, california boy said:

If we are suppose to pattern our lives after Christ, I have a question to all of those who seem to think that organized religion and "their church" is paramount in how they live their lives.  The question I have is,  do you believe Christ attended church every week?  Was participating in organized religion a key part of the example He left?  Even after the organization that you think of as "Christ's Church", what do you think his participation in that church was like?

Just trying to understand what you believe church was to Christ?  How did he teach us to live that part of your life?

This touches on something that I was thinking about recently: that despite the common refrain (or at least it was once common) that traditional Christians worship an immaterial and impersonal deity (rather than an embodied and personal one), I think it is a significantly degree true that Latter-day Saints do in fact worship an immaterial and impersonal deity--that is, The Church. Saints are encouraged to testify about The Church, pay tithes to The Church, devote themselves to The Church, follow what The Church teaches, defend The Church, stay in The Church, learn from The Church, be mediated with God through The Church, be loyal to The Churc, etc. Yes, they are also taught to have their own relationship with God and Christ, to pray, etc., but those are all supposed to be as instructed by The Church  and must align with The Church's doctrines or beliefs. So while God may in theory be above The Church, it is The Church who defines who God is, and what may or many not be of God.

[Peacefully]

2 hours ago, the narrator said:

This definitely needs to go both ways. I very much understand various reasons why someone may feel hurt, angry, or betrayed by the Church, and for this reason may wish that others not participate as well. However, I too often see persons relentlessly and daily mocking the Church and it's beliefs and then complain that their family doesn't want to talk to them anymore.

And likewise, active members complaining that their family members have distanced themselves after "leaving" but not taking into account either their unending, invasive, and unwanted attempts to bring them back or their constant expression of disapproval. (One day I noticed that my dad would almost always precede kind comments about me and my wife with "I don't always agree with you, but..." The last time he did this was "I don't always agree with you, but we think you and [my wife] are doing an amazing job raising your kids and our grandchildren." I had to tell him, "Dad, you don't need to tell me that you don't agree with before saying something nice. You can just say the nice thing." I can't pinpoint it exactly, but this tendency/need to make moral disapproval clear seems so Mormon.

Great point! No need to preface with our disapproval. Maybe some people think it will be a black mark against them in heaven if they don’t make it clear. 

[Peacefully]

1 hour ago, MustardSeed said:

I was raised to think and believe that only people who believe in God can truly be happy.
Life has shown me differently. I know plenty people who believe in God who are completely miserable, and I know plenty of people who do not believe in God who are peaceful and joyful and loving. 
I have come to understand that I know very little about anything. One of the impacts of that understanding is that I am much less critical of others and much less compelled to manipulate anybody else into thinking differently than they think.
 

Sometimes I go into panic mode and then I realize it is my old programming.

I trust things will work themselves out. That is a very happy and peaceful place for me to remain.

 

I understand the panic mode well. I think I am finally in the place where I trust things will work themselves out. 

[stelf]

14 minutes ago, the narrator said:

This touches on something that I was thinking about recently: that despite the common refrain (or at least it was once common) that traditional Christians worship an immaterial and impersonal deity (rather than an embodied and personal one), I think it is a significantly degree true that Latter-day Saints do in fact worship an immaterial and impersonal deity--that is, The Church. Saints are encouraged to testify about The Church, pay tithes to The Church, devote themselves to The Church, follow what The Church teaches, defend The Church, stay in The Church, learn from The Church, be mediated with God through The Church, be loyal to The Churc, etc. Yes, they are also taught to have their own relationship with God and Christ, to pray, etc., but those are all supposed to be as instructed by The Church  and must align with The Church's doctrines or beliefs. So while God may in theory be above The Church, it is The Church who defines who God is, and what may or many not be of God.

You have almost perfectly captured and expressed one of my great struggles right now. Loyalty to the church seems to be the real measure of our relationship with God as well as our personal righteousness. 

[MustardSeed]

4 minutes ago, Peacefully said:

I understand the panic mode well. I think I am finally in the place where I trust things will work themselves out. 

It’s sad that at one time I believed the panic was a message from God- I could not be more wrong imo. 

[california boy]

17 minutes ago, the narrator said:

This touches on something that I was thinking about recently: that despite the common refrain (or at least it was once common) that traditional Christians worship an immaterial and impersonal deity (rather than an embodied and personal one), I think it is a significantly degree true that Latter-day Saints do in fact worship an immaterial and impersonal deity--that is, The Church. Saints are encouraged to testify about The Church, pay tithes to The Church, devote themselves to The Church, follow what The Church teaches, defend The Church, stay in The Church, learn from The Church, be mediated with God through The Church, be loyal to The Churc, etc. Yes, they are also taught to have their own relationship with God and Christ, to pray, etc., but those are all supposed to be as instructed by The Church  and must align with The Church's doctrines or beliefs. So while God may in theory be above The Church, it is The Church who defines who God is, and what may or many not be of God.

I am beginning to wonder the same thing.  Just reading through all these posts, the Church seems to take center stage for many members.  What takes place outside of Church seems to take a back seat.  Members seem to have a problem with anything not authorized by the Church as coming from God.  Is that really the vision Christ had of how we are to live our lives?  

[Bernard Gui]

3 Nephi 27

1 And it came to pass that as the disciples of Jesus were journeying and were preaching the things which they had both heard and seen, and were baptizing in the name of Jesus, it came to pass that the disciples were gathered together and were united in mighty prayer and fasting.

2 And Jesus again showed himself unto them, for they were praying unto the Father in his name; and Jesus came and stood in the midst of them, and said unto them: What will ye that I shall give unto you?

3 And they said unto him: Lord, we will that thou wouldst tell us the name whereby we shall call this church; for there are disputations among the people concerning this matter.

4 And the Lord said unto them: Verily, verily, I say unto you, why is it that the people should murmur and dispute because of this thing?

5 Have they not read the scriptures, which say ye must take upon you the name of Christ, which is my name? For by this name shall ye be called at the last day;

6 And whoso taketh upon him my name, and endureth to the end, the same shall be saved at the last day.

7 Therefore, whatsoever ye shall do, ye shall do it in my name; therefore ye shall call the church in my name; and ye shall call upon the Father in my name that he will bless the church for my sake.

8 And how be it my church save it be called in my name? For if a church be called in Moses’ name then it be Moses’ church; or if it be called in the name of a man then it be the church of a man; but if it be called in my name then it is my church, if it so be that they are built upon my gospel.

9 Verily I say unto you, that ye are built upon my gospel; therefore ye shall call whatsoever things ye do call, in my name; therefore if ye call upon the Father, for the church, if it be in my name the Father will hear you;

10 And if it so be that the church is built upon my gospel then will the Father show forth his own works in it.

11 But if it be not built upon my gospel, and is built upon the works of men, or upon the works of the devil, verily I say unto you they have joy in their works for a season, and by and by the end cometh, and they are hewn down and cast into the fire, from whence there is no return.

12 For their works do follow them, for it is because of their works that they are hewn down; therefore remember the things that I have told you.

13 Behold I have given unto you my gospel, and this is the gospel which I have given unto you—that I came into the world to do the will of my Father, because my Father sent me.

14 And my Father sent me that I might be lifted up upon the cross; and after that I had been lifted up upon the cross, that I might draw all men unto me, that as I have been lifted up by men even so should men be lifted up by the Father, to stand before me, to be judged of their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil—

15 And for this cause have I been lifted up; therefore, according to the power of the Father I will draw all men unto me, that they may be judged according to their works.

16 And it shall come to pass, that whoso repenteth and is baptized in my name shall be filled; and if he endureth to the end, behold, him will I hold guiltless before my Father at that day when I shall stand to judge the world.

17 And he that endureth not unto the end, the same is he that is also hewn down and cast into the fire, from whence they can no more return, because of the justice of the Father.

18 And this is the word which he hath given unto the children of men. And for this cause he fulfilleth the words which he hath given, and he lieth not, but fulfilleth all his words.

19 And no unclean thing can enter into his kingdom; therefore nothing entereth into his rest save it be those who have washed their garments in my blood, because of their faith, and the repentance of all their sins, and their faithfulness unto the end.

20 Now this is the commandment: Repent, all ye ends of the earth, and come unto me and be baptized in my name, that ye may be sanctified by the reception of the Holy Ghost, that ye may stand spotless before me at the last day.

21 Verily, verily, I say unto you, this is my gospel; and ye know the things that ye must do in my church; for the works which ye have seen me do that shall ye also do; for that which ye have seen me do even that shall ye do;

22 Therefore, if ye do these things blessed are ye, for ye shall be lifted up at the last day.

[bluebell]

45 minutes ago, the narrator said:

A religious belief attained through a spiritual experience is by definition a personal and privileged belief. (And I would say that a religious belief not confirmed through a spiritual [or similar] experience is not a religious belief at all.)

I didn't say it negates the ability for them to believe it is the best answer. Rather, that it just implies a superiority over the other by assuming that their privileged and subjective experience is greater than the others' or that the former's subject experience trumps the other's means of attaining their own beliefs due to some superiority of the religious believer.

In other words, to essentially tell someone, "God told me I am right and you are wrong" directly assumes a superiority of the other.

So do you believe that Mis, our resident Catholic, needs to humble himself and get some empathy because he believes he is right and I am wrong?

(not a gotcha question. I’m still trying to figure out if I understand you right and I’m using your answer to this example to help me engage that)

[bluebell]

41 minutes ago, california boy said:

If we are suppose to pattern our lives after Christ, I have a question to all of those who seem to think that organized religion and "their church" is paramount in how they live their lives.  The question I have is,  do you believe Christ attended church every week?  Was participating in organized religion a key part of the example He left?  Even after the organization that you think of as "Christ's Church", what do you think his participation in that church was like?

Just trying to understand what you believe church was to Christ?  How did he teach us to live that part of your life?

We have scripture record that he attended the synagogue, and kept the law of Moses. But that’s really all we know.

[bluebell]

29 minutes ago, the narrator said:

This touches on something that I was thinking about recently: that despite the common refrain (or at least it was once common) that traditional Christians worship an immaterial and impersonal deity (rather than an embodied and personal one), I think it is a significantly degree true that Latter-day Saints do in fact worship an immaterial and impersonal deity--that is, The Church. Saints are encouraged to testify about The Church, pay tithes to The Church, devote themselves to The Church, follow what The Church teaches, defend The Church, stay in The Church, learn from The Church, be mediated with God through The Church, be loyal to The Churc, etc. Yes, they are also taught to have their own relationship with God and Christ, to pray, etc., but those are all supposed to be as instructed by The Church  and must align with The Church's doctrines or beliefs. So while God may in theory be above The Church, it is The Church who defines who God is, and what may or many not be of God.

This is not the message that I got from General conference, being the last time our leadership spoke to us.  Everything was very much Christ centered. So I don’t really know how to consider your post because it’s so opposite from what I’m hearing.

[the narrator]

3 minutes ago, bluebell said:

So do you believe that Mis, our resident Catholic, needs to humble himself and get some empathy because he believes he is right and I am wrong?

 

No. Maybe I haven't been clear, but I'm not discussing holding beliefs, but rather that way that one asserts those beliefs against another. So if Mis is constantly telling you that they are right and you are wrong because God told them, then I'd say they would need to humble themselves and respect that others can have different and opposing subject experience justifying their beliefs, for which there is no objective measure to arbitrate between the two--except for maybe a battle over whose prayers can quickest ignite a bushel of wood.

[the narrator]

12 minutes ago, bluebell said:

This is not the message that I got from General conference, being the last time our leadership spoke to us.  Everything was very much Christ centered. So I don’t really know how to consider your post because it’s so opposite from what I’m hearing.

It's always been that way, but also: 

Quote

Yes, they are also taught to have their own relationship with God and Christ, to pray, etc., but those are all supposed to be as instructed by The Church  and must align with The Church's doctrines or beliefs. So while God may in theory be above The Church, it is The Church who defines who God is, and what may or many not be of God.

 

[CV75]

Reading the talk today, I found it interesting that his intended analogy was that the tree represents Jesus Christ and His gospel, the object of faith that is nurtured or abandoned: "Rather than discarding their faith and belief like worthless firewood, instead they [they respond] to spiritual promptings and loving invitations to return." 

His comments are directed at what people can do for themselves: "Focusing your faith on Jesus Christ and His gospel—the trunk and the roots—will give you the hope and the courage to take that first step back." "Be patient as your faith and testimony grow." "You will nourish your faith and your testimony..." "...stay sensitive to the feelings and the witness of the Spirit."

As with the various interpretations of an analogy, people extrapolate from the talk some alleged sense of superiority among those who invite them to return. Avoiding that attitude is a no-brainer. I don't see him or his talk acting like that at all.

Of course I am an active member because I think that is better than not being one, but my invitations to others (through attitude, word and deed) to return are from a place of charity, not superiority. 

I have told people who have left the Church, when the subject came up (by them, mind you, not me) that I never tell anyone to ignore their prompting from the Lord to leave the Church, knowing that sometimes they say that because they mean it, sometimes they say it to put a wall up. In either case, any invitation is still from a place of love and not superiority.

[CV75]

54 minutes ago, the narrator said:

This touches on something that I was thinking about recently: that despite the common refrain (or at least it was once common) that traditional Christians worship an immaterial and impersonal deity (rather than an embodied and personal one), I think it is a significantly degree true that Latter-day Saints do in fact worship an immaterial and impersonal deity--that is, The Church. Saints are encouraged to testify about The Church, pay tithes to The Church, devote themselves to The Church, follow what The Church teaches, defend The Church, stay in The Church, learn from The Church, be mediated with God through The Church, be loyal to The Churc, etc. Yes, they are also taught to have their own relationship with God and Christ, to pray, etc., but those are all supposed to be as instructed by The Church  and must align with The Church's doctrines or beliefs. So while God may in theory be above The Church, it is The Church who defines who God is, and what may or many not be of God.

Given the role of the light of Christ, I think we all worship the same being whether it be a stone, a tree, the sun, an ancestor, YHWH, Allah or Christ -- you name it. The light of Christ just manifests differently in different creations (both God's and our own). We have the agency to appreciate, use and apply the light of Christ and at various degrees of fulness and glory. We even use it to for evil.

So, it is all the same God, just different understanding and application. The Church merely reflects one level of understanding and glory, and each person decides what and how they worship, even if they never recognize their feelings and objects of veneration are creations of God. At least the Church recognizes she is a creation of God and the means of worship, not the object of worship.

Edited April 18, 2025 by CV75

[Bernard Gui]

D&C 1

1 Hearken, O ye people of my church, saith the voice of him who dwells on high, and whose eyes are upon all men; yea, verily I say: Hearken ye people from afar; and ye that are upon the islands of the sea, listen together.

2 For verily the voice of the Lord is unto all men, and there is none to escape; and there is no eye that shall not see, neither ear that shall not hear, neither heart that shall not be penetrated.

3 And the rebellious shall be pierced with much sorrow; for their iniquities shall be spoken upon the housetops, and their secret acts shall be revealed.

4 And the voice of warning shall be unto all people, by the mouths of my disciples, whom I have chosen in these last days.

5 And they shall go forth and none shall stay them, for I the Lord have commanded them.

6 Behold, this is mine authority, and the authority of my servants, and my preface unto the book of my commandments, which I have given them to publish unto you, O inhabitants of the earth.

7 Wherefore, fear and tremble, O ye people, for what I the Lord have decreed in them shall be fulfilled.

8 And verily I say unto you, that they who go forth, bearing these tidings unto the inhabitants of the earth, to them is power given to seal both on earth and in heaven, the unbelieving and rebellious;

9 Yea, verily, to seal them up unto the day when the wrath of God shall be poured out upon the wicked without measure—

10 Unto the day when the Lord shall come to recompense unto every man according to his work, and measure to every man according to the measure which he has measured to his fellow man.

11 Wherefore the voice of the Lord is unto the ends of the earth, that all that will hear may hear:

12 Prepare ye, prepare ye for that which is to come, for the Lord is nigh;

13 And the anger of the Lord is kindled, and his sword is bathed in heaven, and it shall fall upon the inhabitants of the earth.

14 And the arm of the Lord shall be revealed; and the daycometh that they who will not hear the voice of the Lord, neither the voice of his servants, neither give heed to the words of the prophets and apostles, shall be cut off from among the people;

15 For they have strayed from mine ordinances, and have broken mine everlasting covenant;

16 They seek not the Lord to establish his righteousness, but every man walketh in his own way, and after the image of his own god, whose image is in the likeness of the world, and whose substance is that of an idol, which waxeth old and shall perish in Babylon, even Babylon the great, which shall fall.

17 Wherefore, I the Lord, knowing the calamity which should come upon the inhabitants of the earth, called upon my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., and spake unto him from heaven, and gave him commandments;

18 And also gave commandments to others, that they should proclaim these things unto the world; and all this that it might be fulfilled, which was written by the prophets—

19 The weak things of the world shall come forth and break down the mighty and strong ones, that man should notcounsel his fellow man, neither trust in the arm of flesh—

20 But that every man might speak in the name of God the Lord, even the Savior of the world;

21 That faith also might increase in the earth;

22 That mine everlasting covenant might be established;

23 That the fulness of my gospel might be proclaimed by the weak and the simple unto the ends of the world, and before kings and rulers.

24 Behold, I am God and have spoken it; these commandments are of me, and were given unto my servants in their weakness, after the manner of their language, that they might come to understanding....

29 And after having received the record of the Nephites, yea, even my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., might have power to translate through the mercy of God, by the power of God, the Book of Mormon.

30 And also those to whom these commandments were given, might have power to lay the foundation of this church, and to bring it forth out of obscurity and out of darkness, the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth, with which I, the Lord, am well pleased, speaking unto the church collectively and not individually—

31 For I the Lord cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance;

32 Nevertheless, he that repents and does the commandments of the Lord shall be forgiven;

33 And he that repents not, from him shall be taken even the light which he has received; for my Spirit shall not always strive with man, saith the Lord of Hosts.

34 And again, verily I say unto you, O inhabitants of the earth: I the Lord am willing to make these things knownunto all flesh;

35 For I am no respecter of persons, and will that all men shall know that the day speedily cometh; the hour is not yet, but is nigh at hand, when peace shall be taken from the earth, and the devil shall have power over his own dominion.

36 And also the Lord shall have power over his saints, and shall reign in their midst, and shall come down in judgment upon Idumea, or the world.

37 Search these commandments, for they are true and faithful, and the prophecies and promises which are in them shall all be fulfilled.

38 What I the Lord have spoken, I have spoken, and I excuse not myself; and though the heavens and the earth pass away, my word shall not pass away, but shall all be fulfilled, whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same.

39 For behold, and lo, the Lord is God, and the Spirit beareth record, and the record is true, and the truth abideth forever and ever. Amen.

[Bernard Gui]

It's interesting to read the Lord's own words on these matters.

[ZealouslyStriving]

2 hours ago, the narrator said:

A religious belief attained through a spiritual experience is by definition a personal and privileged belief. (And I would say that a religious belief not confirmed through a spiritual [or similar] experience is not a religious belief at all.)

I didn't say it negates the ability for them to believe it is the best answer. Rather, that it just implies a superiority over the other by assuming that their privileged and subjective experience is greater than the others' or that the former's subject experience trumps the other's means of attaining their own beliefs due to some superiority of the religious believer.

In other words, to essentially tell someone, "God told me I am right and you are wrong" directly assumes a superiority of the other.

Thank you for proving my point.

[let’s roll]

45 minutes ago, the narrator said:

It's always been that way,

Or it’s never been that way, but that’s the way you’ve always understood it.

 

1 hour ago, the narrator said:

This touches on something that I was thinking about recently: that despite the common refrain (or at least it was once common) that traditional Christians worship an immaterial and impersonal deity (rather than an embodied and personal one), I think it is a significantly degree true that Latter-day Saints do in fact worship an immaterial and impersonal deity--that is, The Church. Saints are encouraged to testify about The Church, pay tithes to The Church, devote themselves to The Church, follow what The Church teaches, defend The Church, stay in The Church, learn from The Church, be mediated with God through The Church, be loyal to The Churc, etc. Yes, they are also taught to have their own relationship with God and Christ, to pray, etc., but those are all supposed to be as instructed by The Church  and must align with The Church's doctrines or beliefs. So while God may in theory be above The Church, it is The Church who defines who God is, and what may or many not be of God.

We are sons and daughters of God, not of a church or the Church.  Christ saves, not a church or the Church.   Spiritual power comes to God’s sons and daughters through their faith in Deity, not in a church or the Church.  God utilizes prophets.  We identify who He has chosen as His prophets by asking Him, not those who proclaim to be prophets.  The same is true regarding the teachings of those who identify as prophets.