A better way to talk to/about those who have left the church?

[bluebell]

6 minutes ago, Peacefully said:

One thing I didn’t mention is I used to think my choice was superior and I cried a lot over my kids’ leaving. I convinced myself that someday they would see the light, remember who they are, and come back. As time went on, my perspective started to change and I was able to make room for the idea that just because we each find God differently doesn’t mean one way is better. It doesn’t answer your question but I have been in both places and treating everyone’s beliefs as equal has worked far better for my mental health. 

That sounds like a really healthy way to handle it.   I haven't been in your shoes so honestly I'm not sure what I would do.

I grew up in a family of mostly not active (or even excommunicated) relatives and some very active ones and I never heard a bad word from one group about the other (didn't mean it didn't happen, I just never heard it) and the temple endowed and drunk family members all sat around the fire laughing together at family reunions.  But my active family members had been inactive for decades so I don't think there was any judgment from anyone, for or against.  Those are the kinds of relationships I had modeled to me growing up so that's a place where I'm pretty comfortable.  

But when it's your own kids, I'm sure all bets are off.  I feel like I would handle a child leaving ok, but it's where they landed that would cause me the most angst.  I think I would really struggle if they left for a non Christian belief system or a denomination that believes latter-day saints were going to hell, etc.  And I would definitely cry many tears if they became anti.  

[bluebell]

13 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

Dang, what a loaded question to put me on the spot! 😂

I believe that the Catholic Church was founded by Christ and that the Pope is the successor of St. Peter with his authority and keys and that the Bishops united with him are the successors of the Apostles. I believe this direct authority is only found in the Catholic Church.

So, um, yeah. But ya'll are nice folks and I like hanging with ya! 🥰

That makes complete sense to me and it doesn't bother me at all.  I would find it weird, given your beliefs, if you didn't believe that.  

What are your thoughts on how we can each continue to believe the other is following an inferior path back to God, and yet still have a peer-to-peer relationship?

[bluebell]

45 minutes ago, manol said:

Imo it can be complicated.  If we genuinely believe that another person's soul is in jeopardy as long as they do not believe what we think they should, we are likely to feel it's worth trying to persuade them, perhaps even at the risk of offending them, in order to try to get them to change.  We may even believe that we risk coming under condemnation for failing to make the effort.  

Perhaps we can arrive at honoring each other's varied decisions by prioritizing respect for the other person's free agency over demonstrating that we are right and they are wrong.  Would this be consistent with LDS teachings? 

(My own one-off belief system does not fear for anyone's soul, so the above two paragraphs are me trying to put myself in LDS shoes.)

 

I don't know how others do it, and I admire those who make an effort to find a way to see others as equal peers in spite of a belief system which teaches or implies that they are superior and others are inferior (or some such concept; imo the exact wording doesn't matter).

I believe we really are equals, each with our own "curriculum" for this earth life, and that it is not my place to judge where you are by what I believe my curriculum to be.  For all I know, that intolerant (<- that's me being judgmental!) person is aceing his curriculum (which might include "boldness"), while I am flunking mine by judging him as being intolerant! 

I like that.  I think honoring each others varied decisions rather than wanting each other to validate varied decisions makes a lot of sense.

Your first paragraph reminded me of an interview that I saw with either Penn or Teller (I never learned which was which) where he said (not quoting) that anyone who believed that his soul was in jeopardy and that his life would be better if he converted to their religious beliefs, and didn't share that with him, was not a good person and didn't care about him at all.  And then we have those who feel that anyone who does try to convince them that they are wrong and should change their beliefs, are not good people. 

It just goes to show that you really can't do anything in this life without someone feeling completely justified in criticizing you.   

Edited April 18, 2025 by bluebell

[Kenngo1969]

14 minutes ago, bluebell said:

(I was) reminded ... of an interview that I saw with either Penn or Teller (I never learned which was which) where he said (not quoting) that anyone who believed that his soul was in jeopardy and that his life would be better if he converted to their religious beliefs, and didn't share that with him, was not a good person and didn't care about him at all.  ...

Uh-oh!    Lots of Latter-day Saints (including yours truly) are in some deep trouble according to that metric!     By no means do I wish to minimize the vast importance of us reaching out to our brothers and sisters and sharing the "pearl of great price" that we (believe we) have found with them.  As much trouble as I might be in for failing to live out The Great Commission in my own life, the flip side of that coin is that I believe one's standing before God is a matter that is between God and that person, and no one else.  While I'm not trying to shirk my own responsibility, it is God who converts, and it is God who saves.  And He's really, really good at "playing the long game." 

As He reminds us, "[M]y work is not yet finished; neither shall it be until the end of man, neither from that time henceforth and forever."  2 Nephi 29:9 (in part).  And He allows us to help Him for what that does for us.  As the Omnipotent Lord of the Universe, in no way does He need our help.  As Zephaniah wrote, it is He who is "mighty to save."  Zephaniah 3:17.  And as He, Himself told us in 2 Nephi 27:21, "I am able to do mine own work."

My $0.02, actual value much less.

 

[Peacefully]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

That sounds like a really healthy way to handle it.   I haven't been in your shoes so honestly I'm not sure what I would do.

I grew up in a family of mostly not active (or even excommunicated) relatives and some very active ones and I never heard a bad word from one group about the other (didn't mean it didn't happen, I just never heard it) and the temple endowed and drunk family members all sat around the fire laughing together at family reunions.  But my active family members had been inactive for decades so I don't think there was any judgment from anyone, for or against.  Those are the kinds of relationships I had modeled to me growing up so that's a place where I'm pretty comfortable.  

But when it's your own kids, I'm sure all bets are off.  I feel like I would handle a child leaving ok, but it's where they landed that would cause me the most angst.  I think I would really struggle if they left for a non Christian belief system or a denomination that believes latter-day saints were going to hell, etc.  And I would definitely cry many tears if they became anti.  

When my son told me he wasn’t sure if there was a God, I had a twisted sense of relief that he wasn’t leaving my church for another church. It’s been many years now, and he is still agnostic and his kids are being raised without a belief in Jesus Christ or God. What I wouldn’t give to have them belong to any Christ-based church so they would have that foundation. AFAIK, all of our other kids believe in Christ and have a relationship with him. So while I don’t think of myself as superior for believing in Christ, I do feel blessed to have that knowledge and I am sad for my son and grandkids who don’t have that relationship. But I don’t think about it too much these days. I just love them as they are. 

Edited April 18, 2025 by Peacefully

[MrShorty]

5 hours ago, JVW said:

But something that is interesting to think about is how I would behave if someone I loved joined an actual cult?

Somewhere on the extreme, it is an interesting question. At what point does real intervention become necessary? I find myself generally convinced that alcohol serves no good purpose and would like to discourage my loved ones from drinking it with or without a religious reason to do so. However, I generally find myself allowing them to decide for themselves and trusting that, if they choose to imbibe, they will do so responsibly. However, at what point (hypothetically) should I determine that they have entered the realm of alcoholic or have started mixing with harder drugs and override my live and let live attitude and intervene? I don't know. It seems clear that there is a point where my certainty that they are doing themselves (and maybe their family) real immediate harm overrides my desire to let people live their own lives. I could conceivably see the same kind of thing with a religious cult that seems destined to lead a family member into some very real harm or danger in the here and now (not just harm/danger for the next life). Maybe a balancing act between the degree of danger and the extent of consequences (losing a few dollars vs. losing their life savings) and my proximity to them and so on.

[Rain]

3 hours ago, bluebell said:

I don't think there's anything wrong with that perspective and I agree with not attempting to convince each other of our rightness if that would hurt the relationship.  It specifically seems to work for you because you sincerely believe that one decision isn't superior to the other (unless I'm completely misunderstanding you and if so I'm sorry and please set me straight).

I'm asking about those people who sincerely believe one decision is superior to the other. 

I'm not sure how to answer your question on this side of it. I just know the church teaches to sincerely pray and study to know truth, but it doesn't teach well how to deal with people who sincerely pray and study and get different answers. So it seems to come to either people end up feeling superior to others because "if you were sincere enough or prayed enough you would get my answer" or you have to be ok with the idea you don't know everything and even if your beliefs are the true ones you may be missing why a sincere, praying person my get a different answer. 

3 hours ago, bluebell said:

How do we honor each other's varied decisions while maintaining disagreeing and sometimes contradictory views of what is best?

It's easy to treat each other as equal peers when you believe everyone is right.  Where it seems like we struggle as humans is treating each other as equal peers when we believe some of us are really wrong (regardless of the topic).  Those are the circumstances where we struggle and hurt each other's feelings or get self righteous.

How do we find a better way to talk about each other's beliefs under those circumstances? 

I don't have any answers so I'm hoping we can come up with good ideas together.

 

Edited April 18, 2025 by Rain

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, MrShorty said:

Somewhere on the extreme, it is an interesting question. At what point does real intervention become necessary? I find myself generally convinced that alcohol serves no good purpose and would like to discourage my loved ones from drinking it with or without a religious reason to do so. However, I generally find myself allowing them to decide for themselves and trusting that, if they choose to imbibe, they will do so responsibly. However, at what point (hypothetically) should I determine that they have entered the realm of alcoholic or have started mixing with harder drugs and override my live and let live attitude and intervene? I don't know. It seems clear that there is a point where my certainty that they are doing themselves (and maybe their family) real immediate harm overrides my desire to let people live their own lives. I could conceivably see the same kind of thing with a religious cult that seems destined to lead a family member into some very real harm or danger in the here and now (not just harm/danger for the next life). Maybe a balancing act between the degree of danger and the extent of consequences (losing a few dollars vs. losing their life savings) and my proximity to them and so on.

Intervene how?

[Robert F. Smith]

On 4/16/2025 at 4:47 PM, MrShorty said:

Since GC, I have repeatedly returned to Elder S. Mark Palmer's Sat. afternoon talk, "Return Unto Me...That I May Heal You." The theme of the talk was to encourage those who have left the LDS church to return "to your spiritual home." The central part of the talk was talking about a willow tree that blew down in a storm and the efforts to recover the tree rather than cut it up into firewood. The apparent analogy being that those who have left the church are like a blown down tree who need to return to the church in order to be healed.

........................

I thought Palmer's address particularly powerful, but don't recall what he said.  It reminded me of a very different Conference address many years ago in which Spencer Kimball pleaded "Oh, come back,...Oh, come back."

You are right about peer to peer conversations about coming back, and I recall a southern California bishop who told me that he had married a Roman Catholic woman, and regularly attended her church with her.  Till one day she said, You need to decide whether you are going to be Mormon or Catholic.  Both of them ended up LDS, and quite happy.  I laughed when he told me that, because my Roman Catholic girlfriend and I had been attending that same Catholic church.

We very much need to treat adherents of other religions (or no religion) with equanimity and respect.  We never know which direction things will go . . .

[ZealouslyStriving]

9 hours ago, bluebell said:

Since you've showed up, I think this is the perfect opportunity to ask someone who believes differently than us (not to argue with you but to understand the topic from the outside) if you see a problem with believing one faith tradition is superior to another?  It's probably not fair to ask you to represent all active and practicing Catholics but oh well.   

Do you believe that Catholicism is superior to mormonism?

I know you are not asking me, but having taken an interest in EWTN and CatholicTV- traditional, active Catholics believe that Roman Catholicism is the one true Church and the superior course of action for those wanting to fully engage in the Christian experience and receive the best God has to offer in the afterlife.

[ZealouslyStriving]

Acknowledging that the religion you adhere to is superior to others out there does not necessitate that one feels superior to others- I think that is where the confusion in this topic is coming from- the belief that one must being feeling prideful arrogance if one declares unequivocally that the Restored Gospel is the superior way, and only way to receive a fullness of God's blessings in eternity.

One can be humble yet declare the truth without compromise.

[MustardSeed]

We exist peacefully around one another, having differences of opinions and values about any and everything because of mutual respect and  avoidance of sensitive topics.

The problem with church imo is the expectation of conversion.  

eta: if I perceive that I’m displeasing  God by not bringing somebody back to Him, I’m going to feel a lot of anxiety and it may manifest in pressured conversations, and maybe even inappropriate conversations with people who are not involved with my own religion. (conversations come across as arrogant, competitive, judgmental, etc.) 

maybe the question is, how do we manage the anxiety We feel in displeasing God so that the conversations that we have don’t include arrogance or judgment

Edited April 18, 2025 by MustardSeed

[Tacenda]

12 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

Dang, what a loaded question to put me on the spot! 😂

I believe that the Catholic Church was founded by Christ and that the Pope is the successor of St. Peter with his authority and keys and that the Bishops united with him are the successors of the Apostles. I believe this direct authority is only found in the Catholic Church.

So, um, yeah. But ya'll are nice folks and I like hanging with ya! 🥰

Well you and those that are in the CoJCoLDS with the belief of the true church is only found in their churches, are on the same playing field. 

 

[Tacenda]

12 hours ago, bluebell said:

That sounds like a really healthy way to handle it.   I haven't been in your shoes so honestly I'm not sure what I would do.

I grew up in a family of mostly not active (or even excommunicated) relatives and some very active ones and I never heard a bad word from one group about the other (didn't mean it didn't happen, I just never heard it) and the temple endowed and drunk family members all sat around the fire laughing together at family reunions.  But my active family members had been inactive for decades so I don't think there was any judgment from anyone, for or against.  Those are the kinds of relationships I had modeled to me growing up so that's a place where I'm pretty comfortable.  

But when it's your own kids, I'm sure all bets are off.  I feel like I would handle a child leaving ok, but it's where they landed that would cause me the most angst.  I think I would really struggle if they left for a non Christian belief system or a denomination that believes latter-day saints were going to hell, etc.  And I would definitely cry many tears if they became anti.  

I have had the same experience of not seeing my fellow LDS disparage other's religions or faith walk. And your last paragraph made me think of my friend that is going through something that I don't really want to display here but it has something to do with a member in my friend's family that is wanting her to leave the LDS church before something can happen in their family. 

[the narrator]

15 hours ago, bluebell said:

But what if someone sincerely believes that there are no legitimate reasons for why someone might stop attending?  What then?

Then they need to get over themselves and learn empathy and understanding. 

[Rain]

3 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

Acknowledging that the religion you adhere to is superior to others out there does not necessitate that one feels superior to others- I think that is where the confusion in this topic is coming from- the belief that one must being feeling prideful arrogance if one declares unequivocally that the Restored Gospel is the superior way, and only way to receive a fullness of God's blessings in eternity.

One can be humble yet declare the truth without compromise.

This is what I was speaking to.  The beliefs could be correct, but it seems people deal with it in 2 ways: judgment or humility. I would say there is a third way and that would be trusting in God with agency, but that really works through humility so it seems to come back to 2 ways.

[bluebell]

33 minutes ago, the narrator said:

Then they need to get over themselves and learn empathy and understanding. 

To take specific churches out of it, Christians sincerely believe that Jesus is the Christ, and the only way back to God and that there is no legitimate reason for someone to leave that belief behind.  What, in your view, necessitate someone needing to "get over themselves" and "learn empathy and understanding" in that belief?

I'm not sure I understand where you are coming from with this comment.

Edited April 18, 2025 by bluebell

[bluebell]

3 minutes ago, Rain said:

This is what I was speaking to.  The beliefs could be correct, but it seems people deal with it in 2 ways: judgment or humility. I would say there is a third way and that would be trusting in God with agency, but that really works through humility so it seems to come back to 2 ways.

I agree.

Last night I was looking at the "scripture of the day" on the LDS circles app and a few scriptures down (it was in D&C 63) it talked about "those who desire in their hearts, in meekness, to warn sinners to repentance..." and it seemed like one good answer to the questions of this thread.  

It's not the belief or even certainty of belief that seems to cause the problems.  It's a lack of humility and meekness in those beliefs, especially when interacting with others.

[the narrator]

14 hours ago, Peacefully said:

 I honor my kids’ varied decisions for leaving and they honor my decisions for staying. This seems like a logical way to look at it. One decision isn’t superior to the other and we don’t attempt to convince each other of our rightness. 

This definitely needs to go both ways. I very much understand various reasons why someone may feel hurt, angry, or betrayed by the Church, and for this reason may wish that others not participate as well. However, I too often see persons relentlessly and daily mocking the Church and it's beliefs and then complain that their family doesn't want to talk to them anymore.

And likewise, active members complaining that their family members have distanced themselves after "leaving" but not taking into account either their unending, invasive, and unwanted attempts to bring them back or their constant expression of disapproval. (One day I noticed that my dad would almost always precede kind comments about me and my wife with "I don't always agree with you, but..." The last time he did this was "I don't always agree with you, but we think you and [my wife] are doing an amazing job raising your kids and our grandchildren." I had to tell him, "Dad, you don't need to tell me that you don't agree with before saying something nice. You can just say the nice thing." I can't pinpoint it exactly, but this tendency/need to make moral disapproval clear seems so Mormon.

[teddyaware]

4 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

Acknowledging that the religion you adhere to is superior to others out there does not necessitate that one feels superior to others- I think that is where the confusion in this topic is coming from- the belief that one must being feeling prideful arrogance if one declares unequivocally that the Restored Gospel is the superior way, and only way to receive a fullness of God's blessings in eternity.

One can be humble yet declare the truth without compromise.

One cannot truly know and comprehensively understand that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is the Lord’s one true church without simultaneously realizing that only an ignorant fool would brag about it. Broken hearts and contrite spirits, born of the realization that we are nothing without Christ, combine to instill a humble reverence that banishes the spiritually immature inclination to boast.

Edited April 18, 2025 by teddyaware

[bluebell]

11 hours ago, Rain said:

I'm not sure how to answer your question on this side of it. I just know the church teaches to sincerely pray and study to know truth, but it doesn't teach well how to deal with people who sincerely pray and study and get different answers. So it seems to come to either people end up feeling superior to others because "if you were sincere enough or prayed enough you would get my answer" or you have to be ok with the idea you don't know everything and even if your beliefs are the true ones you may be missing why a sincere, praying person my get a different answer. 

 

I agree.  The church doesn't teach us how to deal with that scenario.  I wish leaders would acknowledge the possibility that included in the idea of "God's ways are not our ways" is the concept that He could lead someone out of the church.  I think it was Elder Oaks (but I could be wrong) who gave a talk years ago about how the leaders deal with the generalities but there are often exceptions.  

The exceptions don't negate the rule but acknowledging them can be so beneficial for everyone.

 

 

[bluebell]

12 hours ago, Peacefully said:

When my son told me he wasn’t sure if there was a God, I had a twisted sense of relief that he wasn’t leaving my church for another church. It’s been many years now, and he is still agnostic and his kids are being raised without a belief in Jesus Christ or God. What I wouldn’t give to have them belong to any Christ-based church so they would have that foundation. AFAIK, all of our other kids believe in Christ and have a relationship with him. So while I don’t think of myself as superior for believing in Christ, I do feel blessed to have that knowledge and I am sad for my son and grandkids who don’t have that relationship. But I don’t think about it too much these days. I just love them as they are. 

I could see myself doing the same if I were in your shoes in that moment.  I can see how adding grandkids in changes everything.

[JVW]

14 hours ago, bluebell said:

I'm asking about those people who sincerely believe one decision is superior to the other.  How do we honor each other's varied decisions while maintaining disagreeing and sometimes contradictory views of what is best?

It's easy to treat each other as equal peers when you believe everyone is right.  Where it seems like we struggle as humans is treating each other as equal peers when we believe some of us are really wrong (regardless of the topic).  Those are the circumstances where we struggle and hurt each other's feelings or get self righteous.

How do we find a better way to talk about each other's beliefs under those circumstances? 

I don't have any answers so I'm hoping we can come up with good ideas together.

Here's how I have it worked out, and it works pretty well for me. My beliefs are the best beliefs, they are better than everyone else's. If they weren't then I would believe something else. I think everyone believes that what they believe is the best, because if they didn't, or they believed that their beliefs were equal to someone else, then they would be flip-flopping often about what they choose to believe and their life would lack stability. We will all default to using our best judgment about what we think is best, and all feel like we make the best decisions and the best choices about what to believe.

Keeping that in mind, here is the flipside that leads me to be tolerant. We all deserve to go to hell. We all suck. We're all full of crap. The line that determines good and evil runs through the center of every human heart. And nobody has any idea what's going on (this last point is especially easy to believe as a parent).

So I may think that my beliefs are the best beliefs, but that doesn't mean that I'm better than you. Regardless of what someone believes we are all going to hell and/or many of us already live there. And we all have a bunch of self-deception piled on internally that's getting in the way of our own happiness. I promise I'm a cheerful kind of guy offline.

13 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

Dang, what a loaded question to put me on the spot! 😂

I believe that the Catholic Church was founded by Christ and that the Pope is the successor of St. Peter with his authority and keys and that the Bishops united with him are the successors of the Apostles. I believe this direct authority is only found in the Catholic Church.

So, um, yeah. But ya'll are nice folks and I like hanging with ya! 🥰

I am so offended right now!

[the narrator]

24 minutes ago, bluebell said:

To take specific churches out of it, Christians sincerely believe that Jesus is the Christ, and the only way back to God and that there is no legitimate reason for someone to leave that belief behind.  What, in your view, necessitate someone needing to "get over themselves" and "learn empathy and understanding"?

I simply mean to gain some epistemic humility--to recognize that no matter how clear and privileged they may believe the certainty of their beliefs to be, that any knowledge gained through a private and thus entirely subjective experience is just that.

[MustardSeed]

1 minute ago, bluebell said:

I could see myself doing the same if I were in your shoes in that moment.  I can see how adding grandkids in changes everything.

I was raised to think and believe that only people who believe in God can truly be happy.
Life has shown me differently. I know plenty people who believe in God who are completely miserable, and I know plenty of people who do not believe in God who are peaceful and joyful and loving. 
I have come to understand that I know very little about anything. One of the impacts of that understanding is that I am much less critical of others and much less compelled to manipulate anybody else into thinking differently than they think.
 

Sometimes I go into panic mode and then I realize it is my old programming.

I trust things will work themselves out. That is a very happy and peaceful place for me to remain.