Alchohol - Cancer Warning like Cigarettes?

[california boy]

I was at a party last night.  My partner and I carpooled with a friend to get there.  He brought a couple of bottles of non-alcoholic wine.  My partner asked about the wines and just how good they were.  Our friend said they are better than most alcoholic wines, but still not really that good.  I don't like or drink wine.  But I suggested the Welch label as maybe being the best non-alcoholic wine on the market today.  

No, it didn't work.  So maybe if someone could develop good non-alcoholic like drinks it would move the needle more.  Don't know if that is even possible since I know very little about alcoholic drinks.  But maybe a warning label would help move people in that direction.

[bluebell]

My husband and I own a motorsports dealership and a couple of days ago I walked into the women's restroom and knew right away that someone had been smoking in there.  Sure enough, there was the butt of a cigarette sitting right on top of all the paper towel trash in the garbage can.  It was kind of shocking really, since I hardly ever see people smoking in public anymore and most customers are only in the building for a few minutes anyway.  So who the heck would need to take a smoke break in our bathroom?!  Days later I'm still annoyed about it and it still smells awful in there.

One woman had been in the store that whole morning, and it was an older lady (it seems like it's the older people who are still smoking cigarettes rather than vaping) so it must have been her.  None of our employees smoke.  My best guess is that she didn't want to stand outside in the snowstorm to smoke so decided the bathroom was the next best option.  But why she couldn't wait until she was back in her own vehicle, I don't know.

Smoking is just gross and i'm glad it's gone out of favor.  I guess one thing that alcohol has going for it is that it's usually not acceptable to be doing out in public unless you are somewhere designated for it.

[bluebell]

7 minutes ago, california boy said:

I was at a party last night.  My partner and I carpooled with a friend to get there.  He brought a couple of bottles of non-alcoholic wine.  My partner asked about the wines and just how good they were.  Our friend said they are better than most alcoholic wines, but still not really that good.  I don't like or drink wine.  But I suggested the Welch label as maybe being the best non-alcoholic wine on the market today.  

No, it didn't work.  So maybe if someone could develop good non-alcoholic like drinks it would move the needle more.  Don't know if that is even possible since I know very little about alcoholic drinks.  But maybe a warning label would help move people in that direction.

I'm a fan of martinelli's non-alcoholic pretend wine.  I think it's more like pretend champagne since it's carbonated I guess.  It's apple juice based rather than grape juiced based and I think it's much much tastier.  The welches stuff is not very good.

[BlueDreams]

1 hour ago, california boy said:

I was at a party last night.  My partner and I carpooled with a friend to get there.  He brought a couple of bottles of non-alcoholic wine.  My partner asked about the wines and just how good they were.  Our friend said they are better than most alcoholic wines, but still not really that good.  I don't like or drink wine.  But I suggested the Welch label as maybe being the best non-alcoholic wine on the market today.  

No, it didn't work.  So maybe if someone could develop good non-alcoholic like drinks it would move the needle more.  Don't know if that is even possible since I know very little about alcoholic drinks.  But maybe a warning label would help move people in that direction.

I noticed at a smaller grocery chain more and more de-alcoholized wines and similar drinks. While in Belgium I tried a dealcoholized beer..and couldn't finish it. I know beer is known for not tasting great, but I have to believe there's some that taste better than what I had (it was sooooo bitter). But it was a reputable brand in a country known for its beers. 

 

Probably partially for the Belgium experience and partially for the price tag, I haven't tried the wines. I'm still curious though and may one day try it out. But I partially assume that part of the draw of alcoholic drink is the alcohol itself...or that it adds specific flavors that aren't easily replicated. Foods that had alcohol to cook with tend to have a taste I don't like that's very similar, which fuels my hunch. Add that and the lack of the same effect and it's just not the same. 

 

 

Edited January 4, 2025 by BlueDreams

[Calm]

57 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I'm a fan of martinelli's non-alcoholic pretend wine.  I think it's more like pretend champagne since it's carbonated I guess.  It's apple juice based rather than grape juiced based and I think it's much much tastier.  The welches stuff is not very good.

My favorite is IKEA’s carbonated pear.  More subtle, not too sweet.  Tried Welch’s pear this Christmas and it was like drinking canned pear slurry, I am not fond of canned pears.  We used to have pear fake wine every holiday and then couldn’t find it anywhere.  I had completely forgotten we got it at IKEA until my son mentioned it.  I don’t drive up there anymore and just order stuff online.  So no chance to drift through the food section and pickup our usuals anymore.

I looked it up on IKEA’s website and either they have changed to brand or just the label….so until I get a chance to taste it again I can’t guarantee it as the one I like so much.  
 

Not that hordes will now descend on IKEA to raid their stash on my say so, lol.

Personally though, if I am going to drink any bubbly, give me extra strong ginger beer (nonalcoholic).  It’s the only soda these days that doesn’t read ‘sugar water’ for me.  Current favorite is Fever Tree’s Tropical Ginger Beer.  Their regular Ginger Beer rates second.  Trying to shift my craving to homemade ginger and lemon tea.  Carbonation and sugar are not my friends.  I miss the carbonation more than I miss the sugar.  Maybe will start adding some cayenne pepper for a bit more burn.

[Maestrophil]

I can't tell you the amount of times my ex-member family has triumphantly sent me articles extolling the virtues of wine as an anti-oxidant etc.  They have no idea how often I refrain from sending them articles like this one.  🙂. 

[MustardSeed]

At this price I’m disinclined to satisfy my own curiosity, as I’m no foodie.  But I’ve heard it’s a winner.  

 

 

 

 

 

[bluebell]

14 minutes ago, Calm said:

My favorite is IKEA’s carbonated pear.  More subtle, not too sweet.  Tried Welch’s pear this Christmas and it was like drinking canned pear slurry, I am not fond of canned pears.  We used to have pear fake wine every holiday and then couldn’t find it anywhere.  I had completely forgotten we got it at IKEA until my son mentioned it.  I don’t drive up there anymore and just order stuff online.  So no chance to drift through the food section and pickup our usuals anymore.

I looked it up on IKEA’s website and either they have changed to brand or just the label….so until I get a chance to taste it again I can’t guarantee it as the one I like so much.  
 

Not that hordes will now descend on IKEA to raid their stash on my say so, lol.

Personally though, if I am going to drink any bubbly, give me extra strong ginger beer (nonalcoholic).  It’s the only soda these days that doesn’t read ‘sugar water’ for me.  Current favorite is Fever Tree’s Tropical Ginger Beer.  Their regular Ginger Beer rates second.  Trying to shift my craving to homemade ginger and lemon tea.  Carbonation and sugar are not my friends.  I miss the carbonation more than I miss the sugar.  Maybe will start adding some cayenne pepper for a bit more burn.

My husband loves Ginger beer and more power to you guys.   I think that is some of the most horrible stuff ever.  But I know a lot of people love it.  

[MustardSeed]

52 minutes ago, bluebell said:

My husband loves Ginger beer and more power to you guys.   I think that is some of the most horrible stuff ever.  But I know a lot of people love it.  

🤢

[The Nehor]

People talked about how Prohibition failed and in many ways it did but alcohol drinking never went back to pre-Prohibition levels. 1800s America was drinking a LOT of alcohol. So it was kind of a success.

When a lot of people have decided vaccines are bad and that polio and mumps and measles are cool and good for some reason I don’t think warning labels are going to help much.

[Dario_M]

Even if you eat en drink Healthy you still can get cancer. How many people have i seen who got cancer while they where living a healthy lifestyle before. 

[Nofear]

On 1/4/2025 at 6:10 PM, The Nehor said:

People talked about how Prohibition failed and in many ways it did but alcohol drinking never went back to pre-Prohibition levels. 1800s America was drinking a LOT of alcohol. So it was kind of a success.

Wait, what? The Nehor and I agreed on something?!

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, Nofear said:

Wait, what? The Nehor and I agreed on something?!

I am scared too.

 

Prohibition was a weirdly progressive movement. It was also a feminist movement.

Sadly the movement was then hijacked by some real weirdos.

 

[Analytics]

On 1/3/2025 at 11:19 AM, Nofear said:

US Surgeon General says alcohol should have a warning like cigarettes do. https://gizmodo.com/alcohol-should-come-with-cancer-warning-label-like-cigarettes-u-s-surgeon-general-says-2000545354

I was going to think that the alcohol cancer risk is much less than the cigarette cancer risk, but it turns out the subject is complex (https://www.icr.ac.uk/research-and-discoveries/cancer-blogs/detail/science-talk/when-it-comes-to-cancer-how-does-alcohol-compare-to-smoking). But, what really got me was that the alcohol related cancer deaths outnumber the drunk driving fatalities (about 1/3 of all traffic fatalities).

“Alcohol is a well-established, preventable cause of cancer responsible for about 100,000 cases of cancer and 20,000 cancer deaths annually in the United States—greater than the 13,500 alcohol-associated traffic crash fatalities per year in the U.S.—yet the majority of Americans are unaware of this risk,” said Murthy in a statement.

To add some context to this, in 2023 Congress asked the National Academy of Sciences, Engineering, and Medicine to undertake an independent review of all of the research that relates to the relationship between alcohol and health. They wanted to do this because alcohol consumption is discussed in the Dietary Guidelines for Americans, which is the primary source of dietary guidance used by the Federal Government.

After about 18 months of study by a large team of superlatively qualified medical researchers, their report, Review of Evidence on Alcohol and Health (2025), came out on December 17, 2024, just two weeks before the surgeon general said alcohol should have a warning label like tobacco's. 

The Consensus Study Report has many findings, including many research gaps. But the biggest finding is that, "the report concludes with moderate certainty that compared with never consuming alcohol, moderate alcohol consumption is associated with lower all-cause mortality. All-cause mortality refers to the total number of deaths in a population due to any cause."

This suggests that for people who consume it moderately, the benefits of alcohol can outweigh the risks.

[Okrahomer]

And then there is this from WHO:

”Dec 28, 2022, 12:59 PM:  The risks and harms associated with drinking alcohol have been systematically evaluated over the years and are well documented. The World Health Organization has now published a statement in The Lancet Public Health: when it comes to alcohol consumption, there is no safe amount that does not affect health…Moreover, there are no studies that would demonstrate that the potential beneficial effects of light and moderate drinking on cardiovascular diseases and type 2 diabetes outweigh the cancer risk associated with these same levels of alcohol consumption for individual consumers.”

[Peacefully]

On 1/4/2025 at 2:54 PM, bluebell said:

I'm a fan of martinelli's non-alcoholic pretend wine.  I think it's more like pretend champagne since it's carbonated I guess.  It's apple juice based rather than grape juiced based and I think it's much much tastier.  The welches stuff is not very good.

My husband likes O’Doul’s when we go out. I never liked the taste of beer very much so I settle for a virgin Pina Colada or frozen Margarita. 

[BlueDreams]

On 1/4/2025 at 3:12 PM, Maestrophil said:

I can't tell you the amount of times my ex-member family has triumphantly sent me articles extolling the virtues of wine as an anti-oxidant etc.  They have no idea how often I refrain from sending them articles like this one.  🙂. 

You're nicer than my sibs are to each other. When my bro was going on his mish and decided to try out his mission skills on my non-believer bro, the non-believer obstensibly got up, opened his fridge, and made a show of drinking in front of us. Later when the articles started popping out I definitely sent it his way in a group chat with other bro. We also later made fun of him for proving the word of wisdom for getting alcohol poisoning and completely stop drinking for a couple years after that. That teasing made him decide he should drink again from time to time 😯 

 

We're at a healthy medium with teasing and taunting nowadays. He drinks super rarely (once  or twice a year) and I commend him for a healthier balance than his 20's. But then I tease him about him getting cancer from damage from the heavy drinking years. He lovingly points out he's a little younger and could outlive me and then he'd be the one laughing at my grave. 

 

It's some solid sibling dynamics. 

 

With luv, 

BD

Edited January 8, 2025 by BlueDreams

[Nofear]

20 hours ago, Analytics said:

This suggests that for people who consume it moderately, the benefits of alcohol can outweigh the risks.

"Research Gaps

Throughout its review of current literature, the committee identified a consistent set of research gaps that, if addressed, could strengthen the existing evidence on moderate alcohol consumption and health outcomes. Overarching limitations in alcohol and health research include abstainer bias; a lack of standard definitions of alcohol consumption levels and a lack of standardized cutoffs for exposure categories; underreporting of alcohol consumption by participants; lack of data stratified by smoking status, age, sex, and genetic ancestry to evaluate possible interactions with alcohol consumption and health outcomes; and limitations of observational studies. The report urges that all studies addressing the impacts of alcohol on human health speak to these limitations and consider including menopausal status as well as postpartum women and their infants when possible."

Strengthen, destroy, confirm, eliminate, reduce, alter,  minimize, etc. ... pick an adjective that matches one's bias.

Given that alcohol is literally a toxin for the human body and that it is factually the  most abused substance in the US responsible for more social woes than any other toxin, the statement that "the benefits of alcohol outweigh the risks" is a comment that suggests [censored].

[Analytics]

2 hours ago, Nofear said:

...alcohol is literally a toxin for the human body...

Yet the fact remains that we know with moderate certainty that compared with never consuming alcohol, moderate alcohol consumption is associated with lower all-cause mortality. If alcohol is as toxic as you imply, why do moderate drinkers outlive teetotalers? 

[Doctor Steuss]

29 minutes ago, Analytics said:

Yet the fact remains that we know with moderate certainty that compared with never consuming alcohol, moderate alcohol consumption is associated with lower all-cause mortality. If alcohol is as toxic as you imply, why do moderate drinkers outlive teetotalers? 

I haven't read the National Academy report (thank you for sharing it).  If you had a chance to go through it, in the meta-analysis, did they mention how they were able to filter out the significant number of people who don't drink alcohol because they were advised not to under the direction of a doctor due to an underlying health condition?  From what I've found (in my amateurish review of studies), this seems to be one of the most significant flaws in most of the alcohol studies.  When even a small part of your non-drinker data set are literally dying from a condition that is the reason they don't drink, it can significantly skew mortality.

[Nofear]

36 minutes ago, Doctor Steuss said:

I haven't read the National Academy report (thank you for sharing it).  If you had a chance to go through it, in the meta-analysis, did they mention how they were able to filter out the significant number of people who don't drink alcohol because they were advised not to under the direction of a doctor due to an underlying health condition?  From what I've found (in my amateurish review of studies), this seems to be one of the most significant flaws in most of the alcohol studies.  When even a small part of your non-drinker data set are literally dying from a condition that is the reason they don't drink, it can significantly skew mortality.

I doubt it. The meta-analysis clearly states its limitations and gaps which include not having any standardized definition of non-consumer, what "moderate" means, factors to verify self-reporting, etc.

[Analytics]

1 hour ago, Doctor Steuss said:

I haven't read the National Academy report (thank you for sharing it).  If you had a chance to go through it, in the meta-analysis, did they mention how they were able to filter out the significant number of people who don't drink alcohol because they were advised not to under the direction of a doctor due to an underlying health condition?  From what I've found (in my amateurish review of studies), this seems to be one of the most significant flaws in most of the alcohol studies.  When even a small part of your non-drinker data set are literally dying from a condition that is the reason they don't drink, it can significantly skew mortality.

I know that is a hypothesis that has gone around for a while, and I recall reading (perhaps 10 years ago) about a study that debunked it.

Regarding this paper, I skimmed through this section, and it seems this isn't the issue. The comparison they are looking at is people who never drank to those who drink moderately. I don't know exactly how they categorize somebody who had been a drinker and then stopped once they became mortally sick, but I'm confident they aren't categorized as a "never drinker."

It's worth pointing out that this study is done based upon research that was published between 2019 and 2024, and these results are consistent with the results from the research 5 years earlier, and 5 years before that, and 5 years before that, and 5 years before that. This consistency of seeing the same results across time is one of the reasons they say they are "moderately certain" about this result.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Analytics said:

Yet the fact remains that we know with moderate certainty that compared with never consuming alcohol, moderate alcohol consumption is associated with lower all-cause mortality. If alcohol is as toxic as you imply, why do moderate drinkers outlive teetotalers? 

Does “never consuming” mean “never ever used” or “no longer using”?

[Calm]

7 minutes ago, Analytics said:

The comparison they are looking at is people who never drank to those who drink moderately. I don't know exactly how they categorize somebody who had been a drinker and then stopped once they became mortally sick, but I'm confident they aren't categorized as a "never drinker."

Trying to think of factors that should get eliminated to be sure nothing is confusing this finding in the research.

It would be interesting to separate out those who never drink who had parents and grandparents that did to see if that makes a difference.

I wonder if there could be enough of a significance from those who chose not to drink because of seeing the harm done in family members.  Perhaps alcohol damages those already vulnerable in health areas more so there are never ever drinkers that were horrified at what happened to love ones that are naturally more vulnerable to health issues to begin with than the general population.   It sounds unlikely that would be significant though.

Anyone know of research on overall health habits of never drinkers vs moderate drinkers?  Perhaps nondrinkers drink more soda and its sugar intake that raises mortality rate?  Maybe because we don’t have a ritual of weekly drinks with friends, we don’t develop other socializing habits and stay at home more, sitting in front of our screens.  Perhaps people chose not to drink because they already had enough health issues.

What I would love to see is studies that matched health backgrounds and lifestyles as much possible to rule out everything as a variable besides drinking. 

Edited January 8, 2025 by Calm

[Calm]

Also have they separated out those who drink only wine among moderate drinkers from those who drink less potentially beneficial varieties of alcohol?

Compared those who drink wine to those who drank grape juice?

If it’s a benefit one can get from nonalcoholic sources, it surely would make sense not to drink to avoid the dangerous aspects of drinking while making sure one gets the benefits from maybe drinking grape juice or just eating a lot of grapes to be sure and get those skins and eating kimchi or something else fermented if the fermentation adds anything.