‘Heretic’ brings back scary, suffocating memories of my LDS mission (sltrib article)

[Analytics]

According to @smac97, Cathleen Mann, PhD is a qualified expert on cults who uses the word “cult” in a clinical way and was an expert witness in 15 states on this topic. 

Dr. Mann created something called the “MIND” model of cults to help explain cults and undue influence to lay audiences. The model says cults exert undue influence through Manipulation, Indoctrination, Negation, and Deception. You can read more about the model from the following site:

https://cultscults.com/the-mind-model-of-cult-dynamics/

By coincidence, there was an opinion piece in today’s Salt Lake Tribune entitled, "Opinion: ‘Heretic’ brings back scary, suffocating memories of my LDS mission: To me, the terrifying ordeal in the movie’s maze represents the institutional authority that missionaries, and especially female missionaries, are beholden to."

This might be a good case study into whether or not Manipulation, Indoctrination, Negation, and Deception take place in the missionary experience.

Quote

In the movie “Heretic,” Hugh Grant tells the two Latter-day Saint missionaries, “You will witness a miracle.”

The trailer portrays two female, or “sister,” missionaries trapped in a prison-maze house with choices of doors that are supposed to test their faith. The movie, yet to be released, strikes me as a visceral allegory, bringing to life a claustrophobic feeling I experienced as a Latter-day Saint missionary. Though I neither experienced — nor feared — being kidnapped or trapped by an unhinged stranger, I was nevertheless locked in the house, so to speak.

I listened to Grant’s words. The trailer flashes to the image of a maze, then to the women trying to escape. When I saw those images, I was transported to the suffocating feelings I had on my own mission on Salt Lake City’s Temple Square. I did not experience any literal horror movie tropes, though I did endure the ravings of one man who claimed that the Latter-day Saint prophet and apostles were part of a secret conspiracy called “The Triad.”

That’s interesting. I always imagined that a Temple Square mission had to be the cushiest mission in the Church, no one where you had “suffocating feelings” and “locked in the house."

Quote

I did, however, fantasize about suffering an injury minor enough not to maim me for life, but major enough that I would be sent home honorably. And I’m not the only one who felt that way. I’ve spoken with many former missionaries who entered into the obligation reluctantly or yearned to escape it without shame. My husband, who served in Venezuela during a coup attempt, fantasized about it devolving into a bloody civil war so that maybe he could come home early.

I think this is pretty common. 

Quote

Like the sisters in the movie, I believed my worthiness and my ability to return to the Celestial Kingdom (the highest Mormon heaven) after I die was predicated on my obedience and willingness to endure to the end. I believed in patriarchy. I believed my male church leaders had all the answers. I was trapped by my baked-in belief that I needed to listen to my priesthood leaders.

Indoctrination? 

Quote

When I was in poor physical health, I approached my mission president. He responded that I don’t have enough faith, and that everything would be OK if I would read my scriptures and pray. I prayed, read my scriptures and returned to him. I shared that I wanted to go home. He responded that I must stay unless I could find someone who wanted to marry me. He asked for a name, and I gave him one. He called this young man and returned to me stating, “Sister, he does not want to marry you.” As I heard his words, I felt the dread as if I were back in middle school and completely naked in front of my peers.

Looking back, I was clearly depressed, and caught every passing virus as a result. What began as a simple ear infection cascaded into me eating my feelings, gaining 40 pounds and cutting off all of my hair. I was breaking the rules.

Manipulation?

Quote

At the time, missionaries could only call home on Mother’s Day and on Christmas. One January, I made secret phone calls to my mom — she was not a rule breaker — who inevitably asked my brother to call the mission president and ask him to stop me from calling home.

Abandoned by my family, the visitor center became my prison. My escape was hiding in the labyrinth of tunnels under Temple Square and long trips to the bathroom, where I would sit on the floor and lock out my companion.

Sure, one could easily dismiss me and say, “Well, this is not a typical missionary experience. She was obviously mentally ill.” Go ahead. I think my experience was more common than we care to acknowledge. I did not know how to leave. I felt the walls closing in, just like I did watching the “Heretic” trailer.

I would offer that the terrifying ordeal in the movie’s maze represents the institutional authority that missionaries, and especially female missionaries, are beholden to — and their powerlessness in its face. Hugh Grant’s character is merely a channel for a test of faith and dedication that these servants of the Lord must endure. It’s a test that ultimately will sanctify them.

The feelings I had when I was a missionary seem to be the feelings missionaries have now. Though, with their access to the internet and social media, they are not as isolated. Nevertheless, it is my observation that missionaries still feel trapped. They are locked in by social pressure to not come home early, lest fellow members think they failed. The shame missionaries experience when they do go home might send them right back to the horror house.

On Temple Square, I could have left and walked to the food court across the street. I was an adult. But my choices and my worthiness were predicated on my ability not only to stay on my mission but also to tell everyone it was the best 18 months of my life.

It was not the best.

Manipulation?

Quote

I wish today’s me could go back and tell the heretic, sister-missionary-me, “Walk out the door, and you will be free.”

Yep.

Thoughts?

[CV75]

Richard Dutcher auditioned for one of the leads but he couldn't master pumps.

[ZealouslyStriving]

Thoughts?

Why does the Church still own that rag?

Edited July 12, 2024 by ZealouslyStriving

[Calm]

1 minute ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

Thoughts?

Why does the Church still own that rag?

What?  Own the Trib?

[ZealouslyStriving]

3 minutes ago, Calm said:

What?  Own the Trib?

Apparently. 

[ZealouslyStriving]

Nevermind- I guess they don't, I've been mislead.

Update: They own KSL I got confused.

Edited July 12, 2024 by ZealouslyStriving

[The Nehor]

Bits of that match my mission experience. Others do not.

[Senator]

1 hour ago, Analytics said:

According to @smac97, Cathleen Mann, PhD is a qualified expert on cults who uses the word “cult” in a clinical way and was an expert witness in 15 states on this topic. 

Dr. Mann created something called the “MIND” model of cults to help explain cults and undue influence to lay audiences. The model says cults exert undue influence through Manipulation, Indoctrination, Negation, and Deception. You can read more about the model from the following site:

https://cultscults.com/the-mind-model-of-cult-dynamics/

By coincidence, there was an opinion piece in today’s Salt Lake Tribune entitled, "Opinion: ‘Heretic’ brings back scary, suffocating memories of my LDS mission: To me, the terrifying ordeal in the movie’s maze represents the institutional authority that missionaries, and especially female missionaries, are beholden to."

This might be a good case study into whether or not Manipulation, Indoctrination, Negation, and Deception take place in the missionary experience.

That’s interesting. I always imagined that a Temple Square mission had to be the cushiest mission in the Church, no one where you had “suffocating feelings” and “locked in the house."

I think this is pretty common. 

Indoctrination? 

Manipulation?

Manipulation?

Yep.

Thoughts?

 

"I shared that I wanted to go home. He responded that I must stay unless I could find someone who wanted to marry me. He asked for a name, and I gave him one. He called this young man and returned to me stating, “Sister, he does not want to marry you.” 

 

Please, please tell me this is an embellishment, or fabrication 

[Analytics]

8 minutes ago, Senator said:

 

"I shared that I wanted to go home. He responded that I must stay unless I could find someone who wanted to marry me. He asked for a name, and I gave him one. He called this young man and returned to me stating, “Sister, he does not want to marry you.” 

 

Please, please tell me this is an embellishment, or fabrication 

It sounds crazy to me, too. But all mission presidents are different, and on occasion some of them do some really weird and sometimes bad things. My wife told me some incredibly crazy stories from her mission, and I was sure she was somehow lying or embellishing the story. But then I met several of her friends from her mission, and they all corroborated the story in all its crazy details. 

I don’t know if Beth Adams is lying about this. But presumably she is a real person publishing a story in a major newspaper under her own name. It would be fair game for the Church, the mission president, or other missionaries from that mission to set the record straight if she is lying. 

Edited July 12, 2024 by Analytics

[LoudmouthMormon]

2 hours ago, Analytics said:

Thoughts?

If someone out there likes "heretic" but doesn't like "sound of freedom", I have several thoughts.  Mostly about confirmation bias and similar things humans do.

[The Nehor]

9 minutes ago, Senator said:

 

"I shared that I wanted to go home. He responded that I must stay unless I could find someone who wanted to marry me. He asked for a name, and I gave him one. He called this young man and returned to me stating, “Sister, he does not want to marry you.” 

 

Please, please tell me this is an embellishment, or fabrication 

It is horrific but I find it believable.

[The Nehor]

1 minute ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

If someone out there likes "heretic" but doesn't like "sound of freedom", I have several thoughts.  Mostly about confirmation bias and similar things humans do.

“Sound of Freedom” is schlock that pretends to be an accurate representation of a real problem and thus serves to exacerbate the problem. It is also a vanity piece made by a sex pest.

”Heretic” sounds like regular honest horror schlock.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Analytics said:

would be fair game for the Church, the mission president, or other missionaries from that mission to set the record straight if she is lying. 

They don’t do that though except in rare, rare cases.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

If someone out there likes "heretic" but doesn't like "sound of freedom", I have several thoughts.  Mostly about confirmation bias and similar things humans do.

Sound of freedom is not about the Church except in a tangential way, it is also a very different genre and different goal and market.

Why would it occur to anyone to compare the two?

I don’t like the genre that Sound of Freedom belongs to, nor do I like manipulative hero worship or money making patriotism, and I hate watching ‘realistic’ stories where people are harmed, especially children, so there is a very good chance that I wouldn’t like SoF.  But all those dislikes do not seem to me to lean me towards liking Heretic.

Now if I was into horror, perhaps I would, but again nothing to do with why I would dislike SoF as much as I think I would.

Edited July 12, 2024 by Calm

[LoudmouthMormon]

43 minutes ago, Calm said:

Why would it occur to anyone to compare the two?

Because both movies are having people claiming it represents some sort of real life situation in some sort of identifiable way.  It's sort of a stretch, I'll admit.  But hardly an impossible stretch.

If someone is all "yeah, I really felt the same way as those sister missionaries in that horror flick, they pretty much nailed it", and they're also all "nothing in that movie has anything to do with how trafficking children has ever worked, and anyone who says otherwise is lying or manipulative", then yeah, bigtime confirmation bias.  To the extent that I'd really discount any future opinions from that person. 

 

Tangent - Again, I figure the greatest blessing that dumb trafficking movie gave the humans, is it might have inspired some people to look more deeply into the world of human trafficking, and awareness of the realities might have been highlighted.   Again, if anyone wants a brief look into the real world of human trafficking, this is an excellent trafficking 101-level read:  https://www.5280.com/girls-next-door/   Every adult interested in knowing crap that happens should read that link. 

Edited July 12, 2024 by LoudmouthMormon

[let’s roll]

The missionaries I served with as a youth who chose not to do missionary work for whatever reason spent their time going to the mall, the movies or the beach.  My mission president’s philosophy was that it was better to love them, encourage them, and pray that they would have an experience that would spark a desire to change than to shame and punish them, and that sending them home would preclude the possibility of having such an experience as a missionary.

One of the companions I had early in my mission shared with me the fact that he had done very little missionary work during the first year of his mission but rather had seen lots of movies and about a dozen Major League Baseball games, had bought a TV with rabbit ears at a yard sale and played in a soccer league on Saturdays.
 

He was one who shared with me the MP’s philosophy described above since he had both heard it and experienced it first hand because he was up front about his activities with the MP during interviews.  He also shared with me the series of experiences that led to him having a change of heart.  I remember asking him if I wanted to go to a baseball game could we go, he asked me if I wanted to go.  I said I wasn’t sure.  He said let’s work hard this week while you think about it, if at the end of the week you want to go, you can go.  

I learned a lot from that young man.

Edited July 13, 2024 by let’s roll

[bluebell]

I'm not going to comment on whether or not her experiences were accurate or not.  There is just no way to tell.  I don't really want to comment on that story at all because it could be accurate and she has a right to share it. 

But as far as her story is being used as proof that missions are about indoctrination and cult brainwashing and shaming any who come home early, I want to point out that not wanting to do something you made the choice to do, and hoping that something happens to you so that you get what you want without the consequences of having personally made the decision to leave or quit, is pretty normal and in and of itself has nothing to do with being forced to be or do anything.

We humans are really bad at confrontation and hard conversations, and we don't like being in situations where others might judge us or think less of us.  Most people don't want to be "quitters" regardless of the topic.  There are stories all over about people who didn't want to do something difficult anymore (compete in a sport, work at a certain job, graduate college, be in a relationship with someone, be married to someone, have children, etc.) where they hoped, prayed, and dreamed that something would happen to them so they could get out of that obligation or choice without being accountable for leaving or quitting.

Maybe she was brainwashed into going on a mission and maybe she would have been shamed mercilessly if she had gone home early.  None of that fits with my experiences as a missionary but people can have different experiences depending on their families and their communities.  But just because she hoped she got sick and had to go home doesn't mean she was those things.  Missions are incredibly hard.  They are emotionally hard and mentally hard and physically hard and even people who sincerely believe in what they are doing and in the gospel they are teaching (and who know they could decide to go home with no negative repercussions) sometimes still wish they could be done without making the choice themselves.

Those feelings are just a part of being human.

 

[california boy]

Oddly enough, I went on my mission due to the belief that being gay would condem me to the worst punishment of God.  I would plead my case that at least I gave two years of my life to Him

 

But once I got on my mission, realized that a mission was really for my benefit.  I learned people skills, leadership skills, time management skills , learning about different cultures and a number of other important lessons. I loved my mission. No regrets, no trama. No flashbacks

[The Nehor]

6 hours ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

Because both movies are having people claiming it represents some sort of real life situation in some sort of identifiable way.  It's sort of a stretch, I'll admit.  But hardly an impossible stretch.

If someone is all "yeah, I really felt the same way as those sister missionaries in that horror flick, they pretty much nailed it", and they're also all "nothing in that movie has anything to do with how trafficking children has ever worked, and anyone who says otherwise is lying or manipulative", then yeah, bigtime confirmation bias.  To the extent that I'd really discount any future opinions from that person. 

 

Tangent - Again, I figure the greatest blessing that dumb trafficking movie gave the humans, is it might have inspired some people to look more deeply into the world of human trafficking, and awareness of the realities might have been highlighted.   Again, if anyone wants a brief look into the real world of human trafficking, this is an excellent trafficking 101-level read:  https://www.5280.com/girls-next-door/   Every adult interested in knowing crap that happens should read that link. 

Both are terrible representations of reality.

“Heretic” might make some former missionaries tell their own stories but none of them are going to involve the story in the movie. Even this piece is just using it as a vague metaphor. A lot of horror movies inspire metaphors about what they are about. No one is (hopefully) going to watch this movie thinking it is an accurate representation of missionary work.

”Sound of Freedom” deceives because it hints that it is an accurate representation of reality generally when it just isn’t and suggests solutions for human trafficking that largely will not work. It is also a vanity puff piece from and for a creepy sex pest.

[Tacenda]

17 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

Nevermind- I guess they don't, I've been mislead.

Update: They own KSL I got confused.

Well, you're close, a member of the LDS church owns it, Paul Huntsman.  

[Tacenda]

13 hours ago, let’s roll said:

The missionaries I served with as a youth who chose not to do missionary work for whatever reason spent their time going to the mall, the movies or the beach.  My mission president’s philosophy was that it was better to love them, encourage them, and pray that they would have an experience that would spark a desire to change than to shame and punish them, and that sending them home would preclude the possibility of having such an experience as a missionary.

One of the companions I had early in my mission shared with me the fact that he had done very little missionary work during the first year of his mission but rather had seen lots of movies and about a dozen Major League Baseball games, had bought a TV with rabbit ears at a yard sale and played in a soccer league on Saturdays.
 

He was one who shared with me the MP’s philosophy described above since he had both heard it and experienced it first hand because he was up front about his activities with the MP during interviews.  He also shared with me the series of experiences that led to him having a change of heart.  I remember asking him if I wanted to go to a baseball game could we go, he asked me if I wanted to go.  I said I wasn’t sure.  He said let’s work hard this week while you think about it, if at the end of the week you want to go, you can go.  

I learned a lot from that young man.

I don't know why, but this blows me away.

[Dario_M]

I think that we all know how these sort of things go. Some young man and girls come back home from their mission and some of them have developed trauma's. I think that the church sometimes puches these kids to much. To much pressure and some of them can't handle that. Plus they are in a strange country and need to speak in a strange language. They are far from home. I can imagine that that can give stress to some. And when they are back home after 2 years they get another type of pressure, to marry somebody as well. Pressure pressure pressure. 

[The Nehor]

17 hours ago, let’s roll said:

The missionaries I served with as a youth who chose not to do missionary work for whatever reason spent their time going to the mall, the movies or the beach.  My mission president’s philosophy was that it was better to love them, encourage them, and pray that they would have an experience that would spark a desire to change than to shame and punish them, and that sending them home would preclude the possibility of having such an experience as a missionary.

One of the companions I had early in my mission shared with me the fact that he had done very little missionary work during the first year of his mission but rather had seen lots of movies and about a dozen Major League Baseball games, had bought a TV with rabbit ears at a yard sale and played in a soccer league on Saturdays.
 

He was one who shared with me the MP’s philosophy described above since he had both heard it and experienced it first hand because he was up front about his activities with the MP during interviews.  He also shared with me the series of experiences that led to him having a change of heart.  I remember asking him if I wanted to go to a baseball game could we go, he asked me if I wanted to go.  I said I wasn’t sure.  He said let’s work hard this week while you think about it, if at the end of the week you want to go, you can go.  

I learned a lot from that young man.

The hard part in these situations is being that guy’s companion if the other missionary wants to work.

[let’s roll]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

The hard part in these situations is being that guy’s companion if the other missionary wants to work.

Exactly.  Our MP used to pair his renegades.  The only exception was when an Elder struggled to stay away from young ladies.  In those cases he’d pair them with an Elder he trusted.  I spent a couple of months on such an assignment.

[Analytics]

On 7/12/2024 at 8:32 PM, bluebell said:

I'm not going to comment on whether or not her experiences were accurate or not.  There is just no way to tell.  I don't really want to comment on that story at all because it could be accurate and she has a right to share it. 

I would suggest that everyone deserves the benefit of the doubt when telling their own stories; there really isn’t any reason for her to make this stuff up.

On 7/12/2024 at 8:32 PM, bluebell said:

But as far as her story is being used as proof that missions are about indoctrination and cult brainwashing and shaming any who come home early, I want to point out that not wanting to do something you made the choice to do, and hoping that something happens to you so that you get what you want without the consequences of having personally made the decision to leave or quit, is pretty normal and in and of itself has nothing to do with being forced to be or do anything.

Based on what I’ve read from Dr. Cathleen Mann and others, there is in fact a difference between trying to influence others and manipulation. I wouldn’t say that this is “proof that missions are about indoctrination and cult brainwashing,” but I would say that some manipulation happened to her:

• She was continuously indoctrinated that missions would be the best 18-months of her life, and stories she heard were selected based on how faith-promoting they were rather than how representative they were of the overall mission experience.
• She was indoctrinated that her mission call was literally from God--the Church’s bureaucracy generating the mission call meant that God Himself personally and specifically wanted her to go on that mission.
•  She was forbidden from spending time alone to think, from reading or listening to things that could help her see what was really going on, and from having one-on-one conversations with people who could give her independent psychological help
• She was indoctrinated to believe that her mission president was God’s representative to her--if her mission president was using his priesthood authority and calling to tell her that she had to stay on her mission unless she could find somebody to marry her, that mean God wanted her to stay on the mission He called her on unless the higher calling of marriage was imminent. 
• She was indoctrinated to believe that if her mission president told her she was sick because she didn’t have enough faith, that meant God thought she was sick because she didn’t have enough faith.
• The Church taught her to go to her mission president for help, and didn’t give her any other options.

Yes, in a sense she chose to go on a mission and thus had to deal with the consequences. Likewise, it was her choice to make the bad decision of going to her mission president for help regarding her health, and it was her choice to follow his bad advice.

But that doesn’t mean she wasn’t manipulated. 

 

On 7/12/2024 at 8:32 PM, bluebell said:

We humans are really bad at confrontation and hard conversations, and we don't like being in situations where others might judge us or think less of us.  Most people don't want to be "quitters" regardless of the topic.  There are stories all over about people who didn't want to do something difficult anymore (compete in a sport, work at a certain job, graduate college, be in a relationship with someone, be married to someone, have children, etc.) where they hoped, prayed, and dreamed that something would happen to them so they could get out of that obligation or choice without being accountable for leaving or quitting.

I've read a couple books about Navy SEALS. Before starting BUD/S training, they are told how hard it is going to be. And the first thing they are told is how to quit--they are told that at any time, they can go “ring the bell,” lay their helmet down by the bell, and then have a warm meal, hot shower, and then sleep in a nice bed. As they go through the training, and especially through hell week, the instructors tempt them to quit. They ask them to. They beg them to. That is so different than going to a mission president for medical help and being told that the problem is about faith and the solution is to pray harder rather than the truth: the problem was an ear infection and the solution was antibiotics. 

She went to the mission president and said she wanted to quit. She wasn’t able to because of the manipulation. The result was a downward spiral of depression.

On 7/12/2024 at 8:32 PM, bluebell said:

Maybe she was brainwashed into going on a mission and maybe she would have been shamed mercilessly if she had gone home early.  None of that fits with my experiences as a missionary but people can have different experiences depending on their families and their communities....

It also depends upon your own physical and mental health, what areas you are in, the idiosyncrasies of your mission president, and who your companion is. Every mission experience is unique. Sometimes you go to your mission president for medical advice, and he gives you great advice and gets you in touch with the appropriate healthcare provider. Sometimes you go the the mission president for medical advice and he tells you that he hates Sister missionaries because they are too fragile and are always making up health issues to avoid working and the mission program would be better if they all weren’t there (that is what my wife’s mission president told her). And other mission presidents tell you that the reason you have an ear infection is because you don’t have enough faith, and the solution is to pray harder. In one sense that last one isn’t very believable, but if you take the Church’s truth claims seriously and the blessings that God Himself promises to missionaries, why wouldn’t He in his omnipotence heal the servants He called and the ones He promised to take care of?

Every experience is different, and I’m glad yours was a great one. But that doesn’t mean there isn’t manipulation.

Edited July 14, 2024 by Analytics