‘Heretic’ brings back scary, suffocating memories of my LDS mission (sltrib article)

[bluebell]

15 hours ago, Analytics said:

I would suggest that everyone deserves the benefit of the doubt when telling their own stories; there really isn’t any reason for her to make this stuff up.

Based on what I’ve read from Dr. Cathleen Mann and others, there is in fact a difference between trying to influence others and manipulation. I wouldn’t say that this is “proof that missions are about indoctrination and cult brainwashing,” but I would say that some manipulation happened to her:

• She was continuously indoctrinated that missions would be the best 18-months of her life, and stories she heard were selected based on how faith-promoting they were rather than how representative they were of the overall mission experience.
• She was indoctrinated that her mission call was literally from God--the Church’s bureaucracy generating the mission call meant that God Himself personally and specifically wanted her to go on that mission.
•  She was forbidden from spending time alone to think, from reading or listening to things that could help her see what was really going on, and from having one-on-one conversations with people who could give her independent psychological help
• She was indoctrinated to believe that her mission president was God’s representative to her--if her mission president was using his priesthood authority and calling to tell her that she had to stay on her mission unless she could find somebody to marry her, that mean God wanted her to stay on the mission He called her on unless the higher calling of marriage was imminent. 
• She was indoctrinated to believe that if her mission president told her she was sick because she didn’t have enough faith, that meant God thought she was sick because she didn’t have enough faith.
• The Church taught her to go to her mission president for help, and didn’t give her any other options.

Yes, in a sense she chose to go on a mission and thus had to deal with the consequences. Likewise, it was her choice to make the bad decision of going to her mission president for help regarding her health, and it was her choice to follow his bad advice.

But that doesn’t mean she wasn’t manipulated. 

 

I've read a couple books about Navy SEALS. Before starting BUD/S training, they are told how hard it is going to be. And the first thing they are told is how to quit--they are told that at any time, they can go “ring the bell,” lay their helmet down by the bell, and then have a warm meal, hot shower, and then sleep in a nice bed. As they go through the training, and especially through hell week, the instructors tempt them to quit. They ask them to. They beg them to. That is so different than going to a mission president for medical help and being told that the problem is about faith and the solution is to pray harder rather than the truth: the problem was an ear infection and the solution was antibiotics. 

She went to the mission president and said she wanted to quit. She wasn’t able to because of the manipulation. The result was a downward spiral of depression.

It also depends upon your own physical and mental health, what areas you are in, the idiosyncrasies of your mission president, and who your companion is. Every mission experience is unique. Sometimes you go to your mission president for medical advice, and he gives you great advice and gets you in touch with the appropriate healthcare provider. Sometimes you go the the mission president for medical advice and he tells you that he hates Sister missionaries because they are too fragile and are always making up health issues to avoid working and the mission program would be better if they all weren’t there (that is what my wife’s mission president told her). And other mission presidents tell you that the reason you have an ear infection is because you don’t have enough faith, and the solution is to pray harder. In once sense that last one isn’t very believable, but if you take the Church’s truth claims seriously and the blessings that God Himself promises to missionaries, why wouldn’t He in his omnipotence heal the servants He called and the ones He promised to take care of?

Every experience is different, and I’m glad yours was a great one. But that doesn’t mean there isn’t manipulation.

We've hashed this out repeatedly already and I don't feel the need to do it again.  She might have been manipulated (controlled or influenced dishonestly) but you and I disagree enough on the definition of manipulation that I take your conclusions on that topic with a grain of salt.

We disagree and that's fine.

My post wasn't about whether or not she was manipulated anyway.  It was on how using one aspect of her story (that she hoped to get sick or hurt so she would be sent home) as evidence she was being manipulated or controlled doesn't work.

 

[ZealouslyStriving]

A story of someone who had a difficult time on her mission, but had a different outcome:

 

 

[Tacenda]

40 minutes ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

A story of someone who had a difficult time on her mission, but had a different outcome:

 

 

They both were professionally kidnapped!!!!????

What is it about LDS parents, this seems to be epidemic. I remember with my first child, a daughter, that I thought she needed to live somewhere else, get treatment whatever. I am disgusted that I had those thoughts. She wasn't a bad girl, she had some issues. She did some cutting, she disobeyed but very normal things. She was actually very normal and going through the normal changes. I think my reactions to her, made her behave worse. 

 

[Calm]

2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

They both were professionally kidnapped!!!!????

Need more context please…or roundabout timestamp?

Edited July 15, 2024 by Calm

[Tacenda]

13 hours ago, Calm said:

Need more context please…or roundabout timestamp?

Starting about 22 minutes in, she mentions her brother was professionally kidnapped, not her. So I misspoke. But the host was herself kidnapped that way as well. When I posted previously I had to go somewhere so I couldn't finish out the podcast. Now I will, and I can further discuss if you want.

[Calm]

8 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Starting about 22 minutes in, she mentions her brother was professionally kidnapped, not her. So I misspoke. But the host was herself kidnapped that way as well. When I posted previously I had to go somewhere so I couldn't finish out the podcast. Now I will, and I can further discuss if you want.

Just need clarification on what is meant by professionally kidnapped…as in held for ransom and released when paid?  On their missions?  

[Tacenda]

15 minutes ago, Calm said:

Just need clarification on what is meant by professionally kidnapped…as in held for ransom and released when paid?  On their missions?  

I'm so sorry, it means when parents get help from treatment centers like this one in Utah. But I know they're elsewhere, but Utah ones seem prevalent, I may be wrong. Seems a few celebrities have been treated at these institutions. https://www.apmreports.org/story/2022/03/08/how-teenagers-get-to-utah-youth-treatment-programs

Edited July 16, 2024 by Tacenda

[The Nehor]

4 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I'm so sorry, it means when parents get help from treatment centers like this one in Utah. But I know they're elsewhere, but Utah ones seem prevalent, I may be wrong. Seems a few celebrities have been treated at these institutions. https://www.apmreports.org/story/2022/03/08/how-teenagers-get-to-utah-youth-treatment-programs

These centers are often seriously screwed up. If you want a dramatic comic about a boy put into one of the more messed up ones and how political and economic forces supported what amounted to child torture programs then enjoy.

https://elan.school

Or don’t enjoy. It is a dark story.

[MustardSeed]

I had lunch with a new friend who shared with me that she had had her child taken away to go to one of these teen corrective camps. She claims that it was the last resort and that it was traumatic, but that it turned out to be really positive for them And then it saved her child. Child is now 40 and they pinpoint the event is being a turning point. So interesting. 

[bluebell]

53 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

These centers are often seriously screwed up. If you want a dramatic comic about a boy put into one of the more messed up ones and how political and economic forces supported what amounted to child torture programs then enjoy.

https://elan.school

Or don’t enjoy. It is a dark story.

I feel for parents who are desperate enough that they turn to these kinds of places. 

There really isn't any help for parents who have out of control teenagers and when drugs and illegal activities (things that can lead to death or ruin a kid's entire life) are a part of it, these places are going to seem like a valid option.  Hopefully there are some out there that actually do help kids but most of them seem to be about making money and exerting control and force. 

By requiring the parents to blindly trust their process and not intervene, and isolating kids from the outside world with no oversight, they are able to do whatever they want and the kids have no rights and no way out.  It's a model that is way more likely to go off the rails than not.  I'm glad that adults who suffered through places like this are speaking out and trying to get some justice.

[Daniel2]

On 7/12/2024 at 11:00 PM, california boy said:

Oddly enough, I went on my mission due to the belief that being gay would condem me to the worst punishment of God.  I would plead my case that at least I gave two years of my life to Him

 

But once I got on my mission, realized that a mission was really for my benefit.  I learned people skills, leadership skills, time management skills , learning about different cultures and a number of other important lessons. I loved my mission. No regrets, no trama. No flashbacks

This is 100% reflective of my mission experience, as well. Loved my mission and have no regrets. Ditto to everything you said, California Boy. 

[Tacenda]

5 hours ago, Calm said:

Just need clarification on what is meant by professionally kidnapped…as in held for ransom and released when paid?  On their missions?  

I neglected to include, this wasn't on a mission. Sorry for the derail I made. 

[Tacenda]

38 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

I had lunch with a new friend who shared with me that she had had her child taken away to go to one of these teen corrective camps. She claims that it was the last resort and that it was traumatic, but that it turned out to be really positive for them And then it saved her child. Child is now 40 and they pinpoint the event is being a turning point. So interesting. 

Thanks for this viewpoint, I've only ever heard the negative. Glad for your friend and their child now adult child!

[Tacenda]

On missions....I believe my son benefited from his mission in Oakland California, albeit he had some harrowing situations. I'm glad he's alive, haha. 

*hit by a car, luckily didn't require hospitalization

*chased by pitbulls

*swat team questioned them at a home because they looked suspicious at a home that was being observed

*got punched in the face by his companion for asking for the phone back because companion was under a blanket with the phone talking to girl friend back in 2007

*injured playing basketball and required stitches

 

 

[ZealouslyStriving]

Too soon?

 

[The Nehor]

42 minutes ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

Too soon?

 

Child abuse is funny.

lol

[ZealouslyStriving]

1 minute ago, The Nehor said:

Child abuse is funny.

lol

Humor has always been used by societies to deal with their darker issues.

[The Nehor]

4 minutes ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

Humor has always been used by societies to deal with their darker issues.

I am more creeped out by how according to the story this level of abuse would be okay as long as the kids ‘deserved’ it and the dark implication that if there is no parent they can do whatever they want.

lol

Laugh through the horror!

[ZealouslyStriving]

1 minute ago, The Nehor said:

I am more creeped out by how according to the story this level of abuse would be okay as long as the kids ‘deserved’ it and the dark implication that if there is no parent they can do whatever they want.

lol

Laugh through the horror!

I like how it is a subtle critique of hyper-moral parenting where things normal teenagers do are seen as a sure road to criminality and in need of "intervention".

[The Nehor]

On 7/16/2024 at 5:31 PM, ZealouslyStriving said:

I like how it is a subtle critique of hyper-moral parenting where things normal teenagers do are seen as a sure road to criminality and in need of "intervention".

I agree but the tacit acceptance that this would be acceptable if the kids were ‘truly bad’ is pretty tragic.

[Bernard Gui]

When I hear about stressful missions, I remember reading my great-uncle Lorenzo’s missionary journal in the Southern States Mission in 1902-04. Walking across the Blue Ridge Mountains numerous times, etc. One of his few complaints was when they couldn’t get “entertainment” (a place to eat or sleep for the night) and had to “sleep with Uncle Sam” on the bare ground and contend with “those humbleful bugs” (chiggers). Now that mission was stressful. Makes me blush that I thought mine was tough.

[Rain]

4 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

When I hear about stressful missions, I remember reading my great-uncle Lorenzo’s missionary journal in the Southern States Mission in 1902-04. Walking across the Blue Ridge Mountains numerous times, etc. One of his few complaints was when they couldn’t get “entertainment” (a place to eat or sleep for the night) and had to “sleep with Uncle Sam” on the bare ground and contend with “those humbleful bugs” (chiggers). Now that mission was stressful. Makes me blush that I thought mine was tough.

I don't know what yours was like, but if you thought yours was tough then I believe it was. Things don't cease to be hard just because someone had it harder or seemed to have it harder.

 When I was pregnant with my daughter my husband wasn't getting paid for several months and then went to half pay. My blood sugar went dangerously low several times - once I woke up to 7 paramedics/police in my bedroom because of it. I had her 5 weeks early after being on bed rest because I had preeclampsia and my kidneys and liver were shutting down.  Then after having her I had post partem psychosis.

One day I was so upset with myself because why was I having such a hard time when I had it better than others did?  God gently told me that I was having a hard time and it was ok to feel like it was hard. And THAT started my healing process.

Since then I've seen that others need that as well.  To know it is ok to find something as hard. It doesn't make you bad.  It makes you human dealing with a hard mortal life.

 

Edited July 24, 2024 by Rain

[MustardSeed]

It’s not a race. 

[mbh26]

On 7/13/2024 at 2:10 PM, The Nehor said:

The hard part in these situations is being that guy’s companion if the other missionary wants to work.

Yeah, I had companions like that too

[mbh26]

It amazes me how some missionaries are happy all the time.  I'm not sure I want to be happy if it means straining to smile to spare anyone else noticing the fact that I may be sleep deprived, sick, or overworked.  I think what I really wanted was to enter into the Lird's rest, paradise if you will, where everything isn't so difficult.