We Actually Do Know that Literal “Spirits” Aren’t Real

[MiserereNobis]

2 hours ago, teddyaware said:

It’s going to be most interesting to see the expressions on the God denying atheists’ faces when they pass through the portal of death and realize they’re still fully conscious.

You very frequently post how you are looking forward to seeing people realize they were wrong and you were right.

It's kinda childish.

[Stormin' Mormon]

I'm neither scientist nor philosopher, so take these thoughts with a grain of salt. 

In a recent lecture series I listened to on Science in the 20th Century, I was impressed by how quantum mechanics defies so much of what we think we know about the physical world.  We've got particles instantaneously moving from one nuclear orbit to another, without ever traversing the space in between. We've got subatomic particles that respond to each other's motions, even though said particles are light years apart.  We've got otherwise solid particles passing through barriers.  We've got waves that condense into a single particle as soon as they are observed.  It's all so very very weird, so very very unintuitive, so very very unlike anything in what we would otherwise call "reality."

I wouldn't go so far as to say that quantum phenomena is spirit observed, though I have toyed with the idea.  But what is without doubt is that reality has an underlying foundation that we have only begun to perceive and whose laws and mechanics behave in ways that are counterintuitive, non-deterministic, and contrary to human intuition and experience.  If such a quantum foundation can and does underly all of reality, and if that foundation is only now being perceived, measured, and understood, I am very comfortable with a belief in a spiritual foundation below even that, one that is likewise unmeasurable and non-deterministic.

Yes, my belief in spirit is unproveable, but it is also unfalsifiable. And I'm very comfortable with that notion.

[the narrator]

2 hours ago, Nofear said:

Meh. I'll let this article catch one up on the past few thousand years of divisive and no winning argument yet thoughts on the matter.
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/freewill/

My background is in philosophy. I don't need a history of the issue. I want to know how you are defining these.

[the narrator]

3 hours ago, teddyaware said:

It’s going to be most interesting to see the expressions on the God denying atheists’ faces when they pass through the portal of death and realize they’re still fully conscious.

I don't consider myself a "God denying atheist," but if I would happen to wake up after dying, my "face" (whatever that means) would "look" (again whatever that means) like complete utter horror and despair. Nothing frightens me more than the idea of living for more than  999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999 to the power of 999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999 years.

[Tacenda]

1 minute ago, the narrator said:

I don't consider myself a "God denying atheist," but if I would happen to wake up after dying, my "face" (whatever that means) would "look" (again whatever that means) like complete utter horror and despair. Nothing frightens me more than the idea of living for more than  999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999 to the power of 999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999 years.

Oh, what if we are different people and scenarios?

[rodheadlee]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

Oh so what about those that know what goes on near the operating table when they die and come back. Huh??

 Half kidding, there are some really compelling NDE's about this. Also, when my mom and MIL, passed, the hospice or caretaker have said that they are in between earth and heavenward. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hLMHf5SLOP4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t0S_VukXBog

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/lifestyle/hospice-nurse-explains-phenomena-that-happen-when-a-person-is-days-away-from-dying/5V2KLXIBRBEWNDGO2O6IPVNQOA/#:~:text=Part of experiencing visioning is,sees someone from the past.

Yes. When I died and my spirit left my body I was reading things out in the parking lot that I could not have read before while I was strapped to a gurney. There is no way my brain could have produced this effect because those  vehicles were not in the parking lot before I was strapped down. I could see them coming and going. One said Fullerton Police on the side of a black and white van.

[Nofear]

6 minutes ago, the narrator said:

My background is in philosophy. I don't need a history of the issue. I want to know how you are defining these.

Gosh, a background  in philosophy explains so much! All kidding aside, philosophy is good for precision of language.

My position is that in certain fundamental respects we have “moral agency” and that we can be held accountable for our actions. We don't have moral agency in all things but in some things.

I accept Galen Strawsen's Basic Argument. Many try to get around it but I don't find their arguments persuasive. That said, LDS theology does get around it since we posit our fundamental core  is causa sui. Nice that.

 

 

[mfbukowski]

5 hours ago, Analytics said:

On another thread, I stated in passing the title of this thread, and @Calm asked me: "Maybe another thread because I would love to know how we can know this."

 

Part 1: Introduction

I have claimed that science has proven that “spirits” don’t exist. What I mean by this is that there isn’t a “ghost in the machine” and that everything we are, including our sense of self, are the result of purely biological processes made of the mundane stuff we are made of, and that when people have an experience of floating outside of their bodies in NDEs and the like, these experiences are illusions driven by the physical processes of the brain.

I don’t particularly like this belief, and I never wanted to believe it. However, I did want to know the truth. By reading “the best of books”, I’ve found that multiple fields of science all converge on this idea: we are purely biological beings, and there isn’t and can’t be a ghost in the machine.

The predictive power of science does make learning this exciting and satisfying. An excellent example of this is how Charles Darwin predicted that the earth is very old, which prediction flew in the face of conventional wisdom that the earth couldn’t be very old because if it was, the sun would have burnt out by now. But by looking at the time required for evolution and geological processes, Darwin correctly predicted that there had to have been a then-unknown power source to the sun that caused it to be able to burn for at least many hundreds of millions of years, and that prediction turned out to be correct.

An excellent book that goes into this more is A Short History of Nearly Everything by Bill Bryson:

Bryson, Bill. A Short History of Nearly Everything: Special Illustrated Edition (pp. 105-108). Crown/Archetype. Kindle Edition.

In the following three posts, I’ll provide evidence from three different fields that all point to the same conclusion—there isn’t a ghost in the machine.

 

The experiences are not "illusions"- they are something philosophy speaks about called "Qualia".

 All the OBJECTIVE studies in the world are not taking account of the SUBJECTIVE EXPERIENCES.  That is where we live every day, fall in love, get angry on the freeway, decide what university to attend or not, and on and on.  They ARE OUR realities as we know the world.

Spirits are qualia.   "Visions" are as real as dreams, and are also a kind of qualia, I would argue.

They are "in our minds" and created as perceptions are created, in our brains and minds. 

Yet again, an example is the color RED.

You are like a blind man insisting that color doesn't exist because you cannot see it, or do not perceive the category of discussion being discussed..    Does ""RED" AS AN EXPERIENCE EXIST?   I am not talking about wavelengths of light- YES science speaks of that.

BUT WHAT IF WHAT YOU SEE AS RED IS ACTUALLY WHAT OTHERS SEE AS  BLUE?

IS THE SKY ON A SUNNY DAY BLUE?  "SPIRITS" exist just as blue "EXISTS" as an experience.

This is all a category error.

Suppose you want to visit UCLA my alma mater.  You will see a bunch of buildings, as you probably have this week, on the news. 

So walking around the campus you ask "But where is the school spirit?  All I see is buildings!  Science says there is no such thing."

We saw a little of the PRESENT school spirit this last week.   Ahhh, I felt like I was at home.

It's like kicking a stone to prove that stones are NOT in our minds.   Maybe not in that sense but then where is the PAIN you have in your toe?   Is THAT "REAL"?

Do you love your mother?  Most people do.  WHERE is that love?   How much does it weigh?  Is love REAL?

Find it in science.  Yes these all are brain states, and SO IS EVERYTHING.

Science and religion are different WAYS OF SEEING AND SPEAKING about the world and our experiences in it.  One is as "real" as the other.

Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy:

Quote

 

Qualia:

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/qualia/

Feelings and experiences vary widely. For example, I run my fingers over sandpaper, smell a skunk, feel a sharp pain in my finger, seem to see bright purple, become extremely angry. In each of these cases, I am the subject of a mental state with a very distinctive subjective character. There is something it is like for me to undergo each state, some phenomenology that it has. Philosophers often use the term ‘qualia’ (singular ‘quale’) to refer to the introspectively accessible, phenomenal aspects of our mental lives. In this broad sense of the term, it is difficult to deny that there are qualia. Disagreement typically centers on which mental states have qualia, whether qualia are intrinsic qualities of their bearers, and how qualia relate to the physical world both inside and outside the head. The status of qualia is hotly debated in philosophy largely because it is central to a proper understanding of the nature of consciousness. Qualia are at the very heart of the mind-body problem.

The entry that follows is divided into ten sections. The first distinguishes various uses of the term ‘qualia’. The second addresses the question of which mental states have qualia. The third section brings out some of the main arguments for the view that qualia are irreducible and non-physical. The remaining sections focus on functionalism and qualia, the explanatory gap, qualia and introspection, representational theories of qualia, qualia as intrinsic, nonrepresentational properties, relational theories of qualia and finally the issue of qualia and simple minds.

 

 

[LoudmouthMormon]

30 minutes ago, the narrator said:

Nothing frightens me more than the idea of living for more than [all those years]

Well, our story, and we're sticking with it, is that God is compassionate and loves you, and after death you'll have a much better grasp on what's good for you.  Here on earth, we're rarely qualified to have valid opinions about eternities.  We've just got speculation and emotion.  So if God is God, then your fears will swiftly fade away and be replaced with confidence and perhaps even joy at the proposition.

 

[the narrator]

42 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Oh, what if we are different people and scenarios?

Then it's not me anymore, and so I don't care.

[mfbukowski]

5 hours ago, the narrator said:

The end of my belief in traditional theism (broadly anything involving a sentient deity) largely began with a complete loss of a belief in the continuing meaningful existence of an individual spirit. Basically, it made no sense for memories to be retained after death without a brain; no "seeing" without physical eyes to respond to light; no thought without a brain; no communication without a physical medium to produce and transmit language; etc. Once that no longer made sense, the rest quickly fell apart as well.

I recently read a paper arguing that our experience of a present conscience actually occurs about half of a second after the fact. Basically, the "now" that I experience is a form of early memory as my brain creates a narrative to make sense of my experiences that it can then channel into my short-term memory. Makes sense. 

OOPS!

I just saw this topic and jumped right in, without knowing that you had already done half of the heavy work.   LOL!

Yes your point does make sense, but of course we do not "experience" making up the narrative as they are channeled into short-term memory.

I am more interested in the output, I guess than how the gizmo works.  I can leave that up to science.  But in their category, you can't beat 'em. 

I am more and more interested in the idea of "secular religion" and how humanism IS a religion and how that impacts LDS beliefs, so right now I am into more the validity of qualia than brain mechanics.

[the narrator]

35 minutes ago, Nofear said:

All kidding aside, philosophy is good for precision of language.

Even more so, I'm a Wittgensteinian (probably far more than @mfbukowski), so precision--or, rather, clarity) of language is of utmost importance.

 

57 minutes ago, Nofear said:

I accept Galen Strawsen's Basic Argument. Many try to get around it but I don't find their arguments persuasive.

I think Strawsen's problem is that he wants to maintain a notion of moral responsibility while denying the sort of free will that the notion is dependent upon. Instead, a rejection of free will needs to examine the role that "moral responsibility" has played in society regardless of there never having been a free will to begin with, and then seeing how that role is still important and actually used and evoked in society. This is something I deal with a lot when dealing with my ADHD son's emotional dysregulation and lack of impulse control--recognized that while his behaviors may be out of his control but that it is still wrong for him to hit his sister.

1 hour ago, Nofear said:

That said, LDS theology does get around it since we posit our fundamental core  is causa sui. Nice that.

I guess it is nice to just claim that free will exists, causa sui--even if it renders the whole notion of a choice or will meaningless.

[the narrator]

31 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Yes your point does make sense, but of course we do not "experience" making up the narrative as they are channeled into short-term memory.

 

Correct. As I would tell my students, we can't experience being determined, so there is no point in dwelling on it too much. Likewise, it's not like we experience making a decision either. So, basically, the Tractatus if applied to this issue.

[Nofear]

1 hour ago, the narrator said:

I think Strawsen's problem is that he wants to maintain a notion of moral responsibility while denying the sort of free will that the notion is dependent upon. Instead, a rejection of free will needs to examine the role that "moral responsibility" has played in society regardless of there never having been a free will to begin with, and then seeing how that role is still important and actually used and evoked in society.

I'm having trouble seeing this reasoning as anything other than a post hoc justification, among the very thing I alluded to when I said "many try to get around it“. But this is a rabbit hole we need not (typed “to” first, silly phone) follow.

Edited May 3, 2024 by Nofear

[smac97]

6 hours ago, Analytics said:

Believing in your religion doesn’t bug me.

Right.

6 hours ago, Analytics said:

What does bug me, however, is when certain people cherry pick what science they are going to embrace

I assume by "cherry pick" you mean "to select (data, examples, etc.) strategically so as to support a particular view or conclusion."

I don't think I have done that.  Rather, I am resisting what looks like your strong adherence to scientism.  That is, "an exaggerated trust in the efficacy of the methods of natural science applied to all areas of investigation (as in philosophy, the social sciences, and the humanities)."

Our grasp of "science" is incomplete, finite, biased and blinkered.  I recognize and value its utility, but to declare that "science" can presently empirically disprove, and has definitively disproved, the existence of God, spirits, the hereafter, etc., is to overstate the evidence by several country miles.

We discussed this back in 2021.  An excerpt:

Quote

Consider this December 2019 item from Scientific American:

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Although quantum theory is now the foundation of particle physics, many scientists still share Einstein’s discomfort with its implications. The theory has revealed aspects of nature that seem supernatural: the act of observing something can apparently alter its reality, and quantum entanglement can weave together distant pieces of spacetime. (Einstein derisively called it “spooky action at a distance.”) The laws of nature also put strict limits on what we can learn about the universe. We can’t peer inside black holes, for example, or view anything that lies beyond the distance that light has traveled since the start of the big bang.

And here:

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So rather than asking “Can science prove God exists?”, what about: “Are the findings of science compatible with the existence of purposeful creator?” For many scientists today, the answer to the second question is yes. Biophysicist and theologian Alister McGrath has said, “nothing that we observe in nature…proves that there is a God…For me the really important thing is that the world as we observe it corresponds with what Christians would say the world ought to be like, that there’s a correspondence between the theory and the observation.”[1] Professor Christine Done, an Astrophysicist at Durham University, writes, “for me the more we know about the vast, yet intricate and beautiful Universe we live in, the bigger and more awe-inspiring is the God who made it all.”[2] Some go even further, making statements like this: “the way the universe exhibits an ordered structure, which is open to science to investigate, points to a mind behind it.”[3]

With the question of God, I realise that we are not simply thinking beyond science into other disciplines, but making the claim that a person exists who we cannot see or sense in a physical way – which is much more challenging to defend! But a Christian will immediately point out that we believe that God did take on a physical body, as the person of Jesus, and walk the Earth for over thirty years. Professor Colin Humphreys, a Materials Scientist from the University of Cambridge, writes, “Christianity is not some vague set of beliefs: it is based upon real historical events”.[4] Exploring the eyewitness accounts of these events is beyond the scope of this article, but they are worth looking into.[5]After going through this process, Christine Done found “the evidence was enough to convince me that it was more likely than not that Christianity was true in terms of Jesus literally being raised from the dead.”[6]

That you speak of "science" in monolithic and sentient terms is, frankly, one of the biggest indicators of you having fallen into scientism and presentism.  "Science" is not a person.  It cannot speak.  It cannot make statements of fact.  It is a compendium of information and theory acquired to date.  It is studied and explored and explained by many very intelligent people, many of whom disagree with each other in ways large and small.  

You have come here and presume to declare what "science" says, what "science" has concluded, and so on.  

There are (1) facts, (2) limited and not-perfectly-understood data giving us insights as to those facts, and (3) individualized perspectives and opinions and conclusions about (1) that are predicated on (2).  But you are insisting that you have transcended the entirety of the human endeavor, that you have collapsed and circumscribed (1), (2) and (3) into a "theory that is as strong as a child of the Hulk and Godzilla," and that this theory "proves that spirits and revelation don't exist."

And here:

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Quote

Each of us need to decide if we are using philosophy to best understand reality 

I agree with this.

Quote

or using it as an excuse to ignore scientific arguments that we don't like

I don't ignore scientific principles when they are relevant and within their proper sphere.  To the contrary, I think scientific advancements are a wonderful thing.  But there are all sorts of things that "scientific argument" can neither prove nor disprove.  Among these are the things you "don't like," namely, the teachings of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, such as the existence of God, spirits, and so on.  

"Scientific arguments" about the existence of God, spirits, etc. is not a thing.  You are preaching scientism, not science.

And here:

Quote

Quote

Quote

 

Is Carroll "qualified as an expert by knowledge, skill, experience, training, or education" as to the subject matter at hand?  Namely, the existence of God, spirits, etc.?

Is Carroll's "scientific, technical, or other specialized knowledge" something that will help "the trier of fact" (me, or anyone else interesting in the existence of God, spirits, etc.) "understand the evidence or to determine a fact in issue?"

Are the "principles or methods that are underlying" in Carroll's book "reliable" in terms of helping someone like me ascertain the existence of God, spirits, etc.?

Are the "principles or methods that are underlying" in Carroll's book "based upon sufficient facts or data" regarding "the existence of God, spirits, etc."?

Has Carroll "reliably applied" the "principles or methods that are underlying" his book "to the facts?"

 

To answer these questions, the answer is no regarding "the existence of God, spirits, etc." The reason for that is that "God, spirits, etc." are undefined.

 

And yet you have characterized Carroll's theory as  "the strongest, most robust, most well-tested theory of all of science," that it is "as strong as a child of the Hulk and Godzilla," and that it "proves that spirits and revelation don't exist."

So Carroll has "proven" that these "undefined" things (God and spirits) "don't exist?"  That's what "science" can do?  Disprove the existence of something that isn't even defined?

Quote

However, I would say Carroll is a qualified expert with regards to Effective Quantum Field Theory and the experimental data supporting it, including what it implies about the likelihood of there being unknown energy or particles that can affect our day-to-day reality, including signals to or from the atoms that make up our brains. 

"What it implies about the likelihood?"  

What happened to "the strongest, most robust, most well-tested theory of all of science," that is "as strong as a child of the Hulk and Godzilla," and "proves that spirits and revelation don't exist"?

Do you see just a wee bit of difference between

(A) a theory that "provisionally" (as Carroll elsewhere put it) "implies" a "likelihood" of the non-existence of spirits

versus

(B) a theory that, as you assert, is "as strong as a child of the Hulk and Godzilla" and "proves" the non-existence of spirits?

I'm getting whiplash reading your posts.  

And here (providing excerpts of a critique of Carroll) :

Quote

Quote

Rather, he is claiming that "the laws of physics underlying everyday life are completely known." (Carroll, Sean. The Big Picture: On the Origins of Life, Meaning, and the Universe Itself (p. 178))

Wow.  And as a scientist, he has demonstrated that, has he?  It's an objective fact?  Not open for discussion or debate or disagreement?

Meanwhile, I thought this critique of his claim was interesting:

Quote

Now, why the adjective poetic is standing there in front of naturalism is an important question we shall consider shortly. First, however, I should note that Carroll is a physicist, and I am not. My academic fields are the philosophy of science and evolutionary biology. Thus, when Carroll asserts that “the laws of physics underlying everyday life are completely known” (p. 178), the “audacious claim” (his description) for which Carroll is arguably best known, my lowly status as a physics tyro compels me to answer, with a polite nod, “Well, if you say so, Sean.”

For the sake of argument, let us grant this point to Carroll. Repeat after me: the laws of physics underlying everyday life are completely known. For ease of reference, I’ll call this claim complete physics, with the caveat that by complete physics, Carroll means only those aspects of physical law that bear on (for instance) flying in airplanes, mountain erosion, cell biology, the behavior of roulette wheels, or why your mobile phone grows warm after long use. Carroll is not claiming, therefore, “that all the laws of physics are known, only a restricted set that suffices to describe what happens at the level underlying everyday life” (179).

Huh.  So Carroll's claim is not quite as "comprehensive" as it sounds, or as you characterized it.

Quote

The Incompleteness of Complete Physics. But what follows from complete physics? Carroll thinks a great deal; from my reading of Big Picture, however, I have to say — almost nothing. Not strictly nothing, to be sure; indeed, quite the opposite: the hard-won body of scientific knowledge that comprises our current understanding of physics makes possible technologies that would have seemed frankly magical to our great-grandparents, not to mention anyone who lived before them. That warm cell phone in your hand, on which you are texting with a friend thousands of miles away, is the prodigious child of highly reliable physical knowledge, painstakingly coaxed from nature herself over centuries, when that knowledge is mated with human creativity.

But Carroll thinks complete physics tells us that our consciousness “emerges from the collective behavior of particles and forces” (158), that “there is no life after death” (218), that “there is no overarching purpose to human lives” (220), and that the origin of life is “a matter of solving puzzles within the known laws of nature, not calling for help from outside of them” (270). These conclusions, however, are not supported by a bridge of sturdy argument, starting with complete physics, which would enable us to walk alongside Carroll, as he signals back to our location from the other side of the philosophical chasm where he is presently standing. Put another way, we can agree with complete physics — we just did so, in fact, two paragraphs ago — and yet wonder how Carroll knows that his own consciousness emerges from particles and forces, or that the origin of life occurred by the known laws of nature. How exactly did Carroll get over there, to poetic naturalism, where he is waving for us to join him? We started with him on the premise of complete physics, but we are still standing where we began — whereas Carroll now claims to know a whole lot of other stuff as well.

Yeah, that's my question as well.  My law degree, my training and experience as an attorney, certainly informs my worldview, including my perspective of things outside the law.  I have often found principles of law helpful in creating analogies and analytical frameworks for other aspects of life, including the Restored Gospel and our understanding of it.  I feel pretty comfortable in doing such things because I am not trying to declare that my sphere of advanced and specialized knowledge - modern American real property and business law - carries within it the Be-All-End-All answers to God, the Universe and Everything.  This body of knowledge is helpful, but not definitive or sufficient.  

And here (same link) :

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A Poetic Problem. Suppose you own a precious metals mining company, and are looking for new sites to develop. I come to you with what I claim is a valuable lead for gold ore — a lead worth many millions of dollars, actually. So we draw up a contract, and on the appointed day, in your office, with a smile and a whisper, I triumphantly reveal what I know: “The crust of the Earth contains many atoms of gold.” Then I hold out my hand for your check.

Should you pay me? After all, what I said is perfectly true. It is also perfectly useless. Dig somewhere on this planet. You knew that.

Is this a fair characterization of Carroll's argument?  Is he telling us "Here are the specific coordinates, down to degrees, minutes and seconds, where you will hit paydirt," or is he instead using high-falootin' mumbo jumbo, bolstered by a jumble of academic credentials after his name, to tell us something that, in the end, is "perfectly useless?"

We report, you decide!

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Complete physics may be true, but after we accept its truth, we are no better off — with respect to solving the problem of the origin of life, or consciousness, for example, using only known physical laws — than we were before we accepted it. The uncompromising details of what cells need to exist, such as their incredibly specific instructions for building hundreds of different proteins, are nowhere contained in complete physics. If those details were there, Carroll could turn the gears of current physical theory, show how cells arose from nonliving chemical constituents, and win himself at least a couple of Nobel prizes. Carroll’s chapters on the origin of life in Big Picture don’t do that, and it would have been flat-out miraculous if they did.

What?!  Carroll can't even explain something as simplistic as how life began on this Big Blue Marble?  Surely if he has the Answers to Everything, explaining and demonstrating the origins of life should be well within his wheelhouse.  And yet...

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The scientific details for understanding the origin of life aren’t there in complete physics, and they never will be, because the latter is the wrong level of scientific description and explanation. A cell is an organism, and the rules and principles that govern organisms simply have no counterparts down among the nuts and bolts of electromagnetism or atomic theory. You don’t expect the guy who fixes your car to know about quantum field theory, although way, way down in the atomic lattice of the metal alloys composing the engine block and pistons, that theory applies. You want the mechanic to know how a fuel injector works. Starting down at the bottom, however, with quantum field theory alone, or even complete physics, one could never derive, or deduce, the existence of a fuel injector. It would be madness to try.

...

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From one critical perspective, we could say that poetic is thus pastel-colored bubble wrap surrounding the icy and brutal truth of naturalism. Eventually the bubble wrap must come off, as it did for Matthew Arnold in the last stanza of his heartbreaking poem “Dover Beach” (1867):

Ah, love, let us be true
To one another! for the world, which seems
To lie before us like a land of dreams,
So various, so beautiful, so new,
Hath really neither joy, nor love, nor light,
Nor certitude, nor peace, nor help for pain;
And we are here as on a darkling plain
Swept with confused alarms of struggle and flight,
Where ignorant armies clash by night.

Richard Dawkins strips away the Victorian elegance of Arnold’s poem while keeping its bleak message. “The universe we observe,” he writes, “has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, and no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.”
...
...{L}ook at the date of Matthew Arnold’s poem — it’s 1867, although the poem was probably written well before its publication date. The current theories of physics that Carroll extols could not have been imagined by Arnold, or any of his contemporaries, but in the mid-nineteenth century, naturalism was flourishing as a worldview. The philosophy, poetic or not, has been around for a long time, indeed. One can find all of its major claims in antiquity, in the writings of the Greek atomists, hundreds of years before the birth of Christ. Naturalism does not need, and never has required, the support of physics, because naturalism is not a scientific proposition at all. Any connection to genuine science is secondary and incidental — like red dye in the cake batter, or air freshener sprayed last night that lingers in the corners of the room.

And that explains how Carroll can go from complete physics — we let him have that, remember? — to “there is no life after death” (218) and “there is no overarching purpose to human lives” (220). Complete physics did not tell him that. It can’t.

Science will not tell us what only philosophy can, and philosophies — true, false, coherent, incoherent — need to be engaged on a different playing field. Carroll could have saved himself about 450 pages. I learned some physics from reading this book, and I am thankful for that, but naturalism can be learned in its entirety from the four stanzas and 37 lines of “Dover Beach.”

Good stuff.

See also here:

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Pinker's triumphalist tall tales continue on page 385 where he quotes a bogus brag by physicist Sean Carroll, who claimed that the laws of physics underlying everyday life are “completely known.” Pinker says, “It's hard to disagree that this is 'one of the greatest triumphs in human intellectual history.'” But there is no basis other than egotism and hubris for claiming that the laws of physics underlying everyday life are completely known. Future physicists will look back on such a statement with scorn. As discussed here, we don't even understand why the space surrounding us isn't vastly denser than steel as predicted by quantum field theory, which predicts a cosmological constant at least 10⁶⁰ times greater than the one we observe. 

The flaw in postulating an absolute is, well, this.

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{Analytics} He is claiming that the most robust theories in all of science offer compelling, positive evidence that if anything like "spiritual matter" existed and was strong enough to have even the subtlest of influence on the neurons in the human brain, physicists would have discovered it by now.

"Physicists would have discovered it by now?"  How does he know this?

When did the deadline pass?  Date and time, please, so I can check for myself.

What are your thoughts about "dark matter?"  As I understand it, we currently have difficulty declaring success in having detected it (though efforts such as DAMA/Nal, DAMA/LIBRA, ANAIS and other experiments offer some scintillating information).  Can we deny the existence of "dark matter" by declaring that, as of March 11, 2021 "physicists would have discovered it by now?"  Ought we?  Or perhaps . . . we should keep an open mind?

I think we kid ourselves if we think we have a complete and pristinely accurate understanding and command of "science."  We regularly come across compilations and lists of things we do not yet know, or fully know, via "science":

• 10 Scientific Questions Science Still Hasn't Answered
• 10 Things About the World Physicists Can’t Explain
• 10 Scientific Questions We Can't Answer Yet
• The 11 Greatest Unanswered Questions of Physics
• Reality guide: Six problems physics can't explain
• The 7 Biggest Unanswered Questions in Physics
• 10 mysteries that physics can't answer... yet
• List of unsolved problems in physics

Roger, one of the reasons I have a hard time taking your absolutist confidence seriously is that you have a track record of exhibiting unwarranted and unearned bravado, and in not being entirely accurate in your characterizations, and in never really walking back any of your overblown claims. 

For example, back in 2021 you cited Carroll's theories as being "as strong as a child of the Hulk and Godzilla."  And that turned out . . . not well.

In another instance, you declared, with supreme confidence, the following:

Quote

Your fixation on Jeremy Runnells and Jeff Lindsay's theory about "big lists" is really missing the mark here. As a chess analogy, I'm not a very good chess player. At all. But if you put me in the middle of a game with a strong enough position, I could beat any Grand Master or chess supercomputer. The Grand Masters could write hundreds of books about chess, but that wouldn't change the fact that if the pieces are arranged in such a way that even a dimwit like me can see the endgame, I will win.

As an example of what I mean, our own consiglieri is an extremely well-read ex-apologist now critic. He has a very articulate and accessible podcast called "Radio Free Mormon". A recent episode is called "The Amazingly Subversive Terryl Givens," which goes through Givens's latest book and shows how it is subversive in the sense that it contains dozens of concessions of anti-Mormon claims that you'd find on a "big list." Givens thinks the end result is beautiful and expresses it all from a perspective of admiration in erudite language, but if you have the patience and intellect to read what he is actually saying and compare it to what the church teaches in manuals and in conference, then one inescapably comes to the conclusion that Givens is admitting it isn't true--it is a fraud. A beautiful inspiring fraud for Givens, but a fraud nonetheless. Listen to the podcast. 

So your characterizations of Terryl Givens were pretty bold:

• "Givens's latest book ... is subversive ... {and} contains dozens of concessions of anti-Mormon claims that you'd find on a 'big list.'"
• "Givens thinks the end result is beautiful and expresses it all from a perspective of admiration in erudite language,"
• "if you have the patience and intellect to read what he is actually saying and compare it to what the church teaches in manuals and in conference, then one inescapably comes to the conclusion that Givens is admitting it isn't true--it is a fraud."
• "A beautiful inspiring fraud for Givens, but a fraud nonetheless."
• "Listen to the podcast."

Your characterizations were also, as it turns out, pretty flagrantly wrong.  I responded:

Quote

So I listened to most of the podcast (it's a bit tedious).  

I also sent an email to Terryl Givens.  I quoted (verbatim) the second paragraph above, and asked him if he would agree with your characterization/conclusion (that he is conceding that the Pearl of Great Price is "a fraud").  He responded within minutes and categorically rejected your characterization (calling "patently false" your allegation that he believes or implies the PoGP is a "fraud").

Given that Givens is perhaps the world's leading expert on what he believes, and given how massively incorrect you were in reaching a purportedly "inescapabl{e}" conclusion derived from applying "patience and intellect to read what he is actually saying," I think you'll understand which of the two sources I will find more persuasive.  

Elsewhere I said this: "I just now went back and looked at the email I received from Bro. Givens.  Not only did he call your claim about him 'patently false,' he also said this: 'I dont believe any careful reader of the entire book could reasonably conclude such a thing.'"

You never disputed my statement above, nor did you ever challenge my quote from Bro. Givens.  So your various characterizations of him were, I think, demonstrably falsified, and yet you just shrugged it off.  You responded:

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Thank you for listening to the podcast and for giving Dr. Givens an opportunity to respond to my characterization. And thank you for considering my views on this. 

I presume you see my point, and with that, I'll bow out of the conversation.

And "bow out" you did.  No retraction.  No revision.  No acknowledgment of rank and flagrant error on your part.  You just withdrew from the discussion and carried on.

In yet another instance, from just last year, you wildly mischaracterized the position of a large number of Latter-day Saints on this board (regarding what they understand is, and is not, "tithing").  And once again, when you were caught doing this, there was no retraction, no revision, no acknowledgment of error.  You just carried on.

This seems like a pretty consistent thing with you.  Serene and supreme - and unearned - confidence in your perspective on and interpretation of this or that topic.  I am not saying this to insult you, but to explain why I do not find you to be a reliable or trustworthy guide. 

By way of illustration:

• 1. A few weeks ago I was in a mediation which involved another attorney ("Jared") who has been practicing a long time and has, shall we say, a reputation for making bold and unequivocal declarations about facts being beyond dispute when they actually are in dispute.  The mediator was a retired judge who had extensive experience with Jared. 
• 2. During the mediation, Jared repeatedly insisted that a deceased party relevant to the lawsuit had been adjudicated as mentally incompetent by a judge.  Since the will of this deceased person was central to the legal dispute, and since I had never heard this claim before, both the mediator and I pressed Jared for details.  Jared said that this had taken place during a conservatorship hearing where another attorney was present, and that the judge had made specific findings regarding the decedent's mental competency on the record after an extended hearing, and that the judge had put those findings in a written ruling. 
• 3. Jared repeatedly asserted that "there's no doubt in my mind" about his recollection of the foregoing matters.
• 4. I checked the court docket for that conservatorship hearing, and found that no such order had been issued.  I also found that the court had not conducted any hearings of any appreciable length (the longest one had been about 15 minutes, which would have been far too short for a judge to receive evidence, have witnesses examined, etc., and then make factual findings about a person's mental competency). 
• 5. We also called the other attorney ("Gil") who, according to Jared, had been present at this supposed hearing.  We (me, Jared and the mediator) put Gil on speakerphone, and Gil promptly denied everything that Jared had said.  No hearing.  No findings of mental incompetency.  No written ruling.  Jared responded with "Thanks, Gil.  Have a good day," and then hung up the phone and turned to me and said "Yeah, it was actually in a hearing in the stalking injunction case where the judge made the findings and entered the order."  I responded: "No, Jared, it wasn't.  Because I attended that hearing, and the judge never said any such thing.  And he certainly never entered a ruling, because I have the docket right here on my laptop."  I turned my laptop around and showed it to both Jared and the mediator.  There was no order listed anywhere on it.  Jared just shrugged and walked out of the room, leaving me and the mediator alone together.
• 6. The mediator and I looked at each other in silence for about thirty seconds.  The mediator was, I think, somewhat flabbergasted at A) how utterly confident Jared had been five minutes before the call, and B) how indifferent Jared was right after the call when his mischaracterizations were laid bare.

I later related the above anecdote to a friend, a fellow attorney who has litigated against Jared a lot.  He (my friend) responded with something like this: "I'm not surprised.  Jared has a bad habit of saying something that just aren't so, or else mischaracterizing or overstating it, but saying it forcefully, as if there is no question about his claim, and then acting like anyone who disagrees with his statement is just being ignorant or dishonest."

This is how I feel about the absolutist statements you present on this board.  

Your absolutist characterization of Carroll's theories as being "as strong as a child of the Hulk and Godzilla" was overblown and inaccurate.  

Your absolutist characterization of Terryl Givens, that we must "inescapably" conclude that he views The Book of Mormon as "a fraud," which assertion Givens himself rejected as "patently false."

Your more recent characterizations of a large number of Latter-day Saints on this board regarding what they understand is, and is not, "tithing" was overblown and inaccurate.  

Your absolutist statement in this thread, that "we actually do know that literal 'spirits' aren't real" appears to be a retread of your prior overblown reliance on Carroll.

You - not unlike "Jared" in the above anecdote - have a tendency to assert, with absolute confidence, that matters are not in dispute and/or have been empirically proven/disproven, when in truth such matters are very much in dispute, or else are not empirically testable, .  It's a habit that substantially weakens your credibility.

6 hours ago, Analytics said:

and what science they are going to ignore,

I'm keen on following the tenets of science.  Scientism, not so much.

From one of the above-quoted articles: "But there is no basis other than egotism and hubris for claiming that the laws of physics underlying everyday life are completely known. Future physicists will look back on such a statement with scorn."  I find this a far more plausible statement of things than your overblown rhetoric.

6 hours ago, Analytics said:

embrace cultural wars,

Says the guy who came to a message board populated with faithful Latter-day Saints and confidently declared: "We actually do know that literal 'spirits' aren't real."

I didn't start this little corner of the Culture Wars.  You did. 

Moreover, I don't think me and mine ought to just roll over and ignore the Culture Wars when you and yours bring them to our doorstep.  To paraphrase Aragorn from The Two Towers: "{The Culture Wars} are upon {us}, whether {we} would risk it or not."

6 hours ago, Analytics said:

willfully misrepresent their opponents with ridiculous strawmen,

I did not do this.  I was, in the other thread, speaking of real-world issues wherein biological males are being treated as women for purposes of women's-only spaces (bathrooms, sports, prisons, etc.), and where people are saying - with a straight face - that sex is merely a construct "assigned at birth," that the sexual binary does not exist, that a biological male's inner-held feeling that he is a woman somehow makes him a woman, and so on.

And I concluded by, in reference to people with DSD, Gender Dysphoria, etc., as follows: "We all should be treated with respect, decorum, compassion, etc., particularly in a medical context.  This does not extend to denying biological reality."

6 hours ago, Analytics said:

and then belittle those strawmen by saying they are denying biological reality.

I think a person who says that a biological male can "become" a woman because of inner-held feelings is denying biological reality.

I think a person who advocates for biological males to have access to women-only spaces (bathrooms, sports, prisons, etc.) is denying biological reality.

I think a person who says that "sex" is merely a construct "assigned at birth" is denying biological reality.

I think a person who says that there are more than two sexes is denying biological reality.  

6 hours ago, Analytics said:

Personally, I don’t care whether somebody denies biological reality or not.

Right.  

6 hours ago, Analytics said:

But hypocrisy bugs me.

"Hypocrisy" is "the practice of claiming to have moral standards or beliefs to which one's own behavior does not conform," or else "the practice of feigning to be what one is not or to believe what one does not."

I really do believe in in the "moral standards and beliefs" which I advocate.  And although I am far from perfect, I strive to conform to those standards/beliefs.  

You are here using "hypocrisy" for its lazily pejorative, rather than descriptive, value.

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited May 3, 2024 by smac97

[LoudmouthMormon]

15 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Our grasp of "science" is incomplete, finite, biased and blinkered.  I recognize and value its utility, but to declare that "science" can presently empirically disprove, and has definitively disproved, the existence of God, spirits, the hereafter, etc., is to overstate the evidence by several country miles.

I'm a fan of science and the scientific method.  

It's a rational path to knowledge, which will occasionally make life better for humans.  And yet, when you get humans doing science, you end up with the results that you get when humans get their wet little brains and bodies involved in the pure pursuit of knowledge:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Replication_crisis

Quote

The replication crisis (also called the replicability crisis and the reproducibility crisis) is an ongoing methodological crisis in which the results of many scientific studies are difficult or impossible to reproduce. Because the reproducibility of empirical results is an essential part of the scientific method,[2] such failures undermine the credibility of theories building on them and potentially call into question substantial parts of scientific knowledge.

Quote

A study published in 2018 in Nature Human Behaviour replicated 21 social and behavioral science papers from Nature and Science, finding that only about 62% could successfully reproduce original results.

Quote

In a 2012 paper, C. Glenn Begley, a biotech consultant working at Amgen, and Lee Ellis, a medical researcher at the University of Texas, found that only 11% of 53 pre-clinical cancer studies had replications that could confirm conclusions from the original studies.

Quote

A 2016 survey by Nature on 1,576 researchers who took a brief online questionnaire on reproducibility found that more than 70% of researchers have tried and failed to reproduce another scientist's experiment results (including 87% of chemists, 77% of biologists, 69% of physicists and engineers, 67% of medical researchers, 64% of earth and environmental scientists, and 62% of all others)

And economic studies are THE WORST!

Quote

A 2016 study in the journal Science replicated 18 experimental studies published in two leading economics journals, The American Economic Review and the Quarterly Journal of Economics, between 2011 and 2014. It found that about 39% failed to reproduce the original results. About 20% of studies published in The American Economic Review are contradicted by other studies despite relying on the same or similar data sets.

 

It truly pains me to understand such problems exist with our body of scientific knowledge.  I've been following truth since my late teens.  When arguing with folks, I appreciate the value of sources and published studies claiming this or that.  But I have to take even the most credentialled of studies with a grain of salt.  There's more wishing and hoping in science than people want to admit.   Because scientists are as human as religionists. 

[LoudmouthMormon]

8 hours ago, Analytics said:

Sean Carroll

BTW, I'm a huge fan of this guy.  I am not bright.  I struggle with complex topics and big words.  But I got a copy of his 2006 book Endless Forms Most Beautiful: The New Science of Evo Devo and pushed my brain harder than it wanted to be pushed into this breathtaking field of science.  Life starts a single cell, which divides and divides into a crapton of other cells, which eventually turn into living organisms.  A butterfly wing grows in ways that cells divide into pink ones and blue ones, forming patterns replicated in mirror-image by the other wing.  Something tells the dividing cells when to change color.

Something tells lizards to grow legs, and snakes to not-grow legs.   Something informs the growing spinal column how many vertebra to create, and when to stop.  And science gives us insight into the hows and whys.  And surprises the heck out of us, by providing insight into evolution at the same time.  This science, (unlike this thread's claims to "know spirits aren't real"), does produce compelling proofs that force the rational mind to accept certain knowledge about evolution.

I got the book and made it through a full 4 chapters in 4 months, until I had exhausted my poor weak brain and couldn't understand the paragraphs any more.  

Big fan of Carroll.  Even though in his forward/introduction, there was the sort of breathless crowing about having finally emerged from the dark ages of religion and superstition.  My experience reading his book was quite different.  I was gaining insight into the details about how God has life happen.  The author was breathlessly excited about how little God he found in the science.  I am breathlessly excited about how my testimony of the greatness and perfectness of God grows the more I learn.  

 

By the way, this video got me interested in the topic and directed me to Carrol's book.  It's much more weak-brain friendly, I'm spending a period of time trying to memorize this song, line by line, looking up summaries of all the big words, to expand my knowledge and understanding.  

 

Edited May 3, 2024 by LoudmouthMormon

[smac97]

2 hours ago, the narrator said:

I don't consider myself a "God denying atheist," but if I would happen to wake up after dying, my "face" (whatever that means) would "look" (again whatever that means) like complete utter horror and despair. Nothing frightens me more than the idea of living for more than  999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999 to the power of 999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999 years.

Several of my children, now young adults, regularly comment about how difficult "adulting" is.  Some of them were reluctant to move out on their own because the prospect seemed daunting, even overwhelming, to them.  I told them that this was so only because they were on the outside of the experience, that things would change for them once they actually dive in and start "adulting," and that the difficulties, while real, are not insurmountable.

I occasionally consider the kinds of legal work I am doing now - with 20 years of experience in practicing law - compared to the stuff I tried in law school and during the first few years of practice.  The difference is . . . substantial.  The attorney I was twenty years ago was simply not equipped with the experience, additional learning, etc. from which I now draw when doing legal stuff.  What would have been daunting/overwhelming 20 years ago is well within my competency now.

Madam Curie put it well: "Nothing in life is to be feared, it is only to be understood. Now is the time to understand more, so that we may fear less."

Thanks,

-Smac

[SeekingUnderstanding]

3 hours ago, the narrator said:

I don't consider myself a "God denying atheist," but if I would happen to wake up after dying, my "face" (whatever that means) would "look" (again whatever that means) like complete utter horror and despair. Nothing frightens me more than the idea of living for more than  999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999 to the power of 999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999 years.

There’s only so many Jeremy Bearimy’s that you can take. 

[Pyreaux]

There are many real things that fit the description of a "spirit". Even among Atheists, they also believe all that is you exists in an aethereal form called "information", we are but an aspect of an “existentially unified” cosmos that will persist after our death. The mind or “spirit,” consists of information, eternal and indestructible, one of the deepest principles of quantum theory, called “unitarity,” forbids the disappearance of information. So with the right technology, it might be retrievable and can even maintain its immaterial existence in a computer simulation or even resurrected. Though Stephen Hawking stressed them out when he suggested information could be destroyed in a blackhole, though in his next book he reversed it saying information may survive by coming out the other side of it. 

Though there is another sort of spirit, a refined matter (energy), via electric signals in the brain causing thoughts and animates the body. One might say someone crazy has secondary misfiring signals, which some may describe such a person as "possessed". There is even a God Center of the brain, which Neurotheologians argue that spirituality involves the brain, and spiritual experience not as something apart from the physical human but rather bound up with human matter, that is, the matter of the brain. Thus, matter and spirit are no longer seen to be opposed but are indeed mutually related, if not one and the same. The LDS "soul", if you will.

Edited May 4, 2024 by Pyreaux

[CV75]

He who lives by biology dies by biology.

[Analytics]

7 hours ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

You can't know something if you might be wrong.  And proof compels the mind to accept something as true.  I don't think ya got either.  What you have is evidence, perhaps strong evidence, possibly conclusive evidence.  But you're lacking proof, and neither you nor your sources reach knowledge....  

You are arguing about nomenclature. It reminds me of what Steven Pinker said in his style guide:

"If someone tells you that Liz wants to move out of Seattle because it’s a rainy city, you don’t interpret him as claiming that it rains there twenty-four hours a day seven days a week just because he didn’t qualify his statement with relatively rainy or somewhat rainy. As Thomas and Turner explain, “Accuracy becomes pedantry if it is indulged for its own sake. A classic writer will phrase a subordinate point precisely but without the promise that it is technically accurate. The convention between writer and reader is that the writer is not to be challenged on these points because they are mere scaffolding.”10 Any adversary who is unscrupulous enough to give the least charitable reading to an unhedged statement will find an opening to attack the writer in a thicket of hedged ones anyway."

Pinker, Steven. The Sense of Style: The Thinking Person's Guide to Writing in the 21st Century (pp. 62-63). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition. 

[Analytics]

8 hours ago, Nofear said:

I can respect using science. My theology is very much informed by science. Similarly, for me, I believe my understanding of science is deepened by my theology.

What do I mean? One of the most profound limitations of a science theory is that it cannot observe anything outside of that theory. It can only observe anomalies in the context of the measurands of the theory and not something outside it. I can speak better to cosmology than neurology. The current scientific models have nothing of spirit matter. Consequently, it cannot observe it. Our current cosmological models have no room for spirit matter. Hence, it cannot observe it...

Sean Carroll disagrees with you on this point. He says:

Quote

 

Science should be interested in determining the truth, whatever that truth may be—natural, supernatural, or otherwise. The stance known as methodological naturalism, while deployed with the best of intentions by supporters of science, amounts to assuming part of the answer ahead of time. If finding the truth is our goal, that is just about the biggest mistake we can make.

Fortunately, it’s also an inaccurate characterization of what science actually is. Science isn’t characterized by methodological naturalism but by methodological empiricism—the idea that knowledge is derived from our experience of the world, rather than by thought alone. Science is a technique, not a set of conclusions. The technique consists of imagining as many different ways the world could be (theories, models, ways of talking) as we possibly can, and then observing the world as carefully as possible.... 

There’s nothing in the practice of science that excludes the supernatural from the start. Science tries to find the best explanations for what we observe, and if the best explanation is a non-natural one, that’s the one science would lead us to. We can easily imagine situations in which the best explanation scientists could find would reach beyond the natural world. The Second Coming could occur; Jesus could return to Earth, the dead could be resurrected, and judgment could be passed.

 

Carroll, Sean M. . The Big Picture: On the Origins of Life, Meaning, and the Universe Itself (pp. 133-134). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition. 

Regarding his specific arguments about spirits, he doesn’t assume that spirits don’t exist. Rather, he points out that Quantum Field Theory tells us exactly how to find any force that could be strong enough to have a subtle influence on the brain functionality. We’ve conducted massive and exhaustive experiments looking for such particles, and there simply aren’t any plausible forces or particles outside of ordinary matter that are strong enough or last long enough or exert forces over distances long enough to have any impact on our brain.

[Analytics]

8 hours ago, Calm said:

It seems to me logically and scientifically the best you can say is everything we are and experience can be explained without appealing to a spirit. I don’t see how you can prove the absence of one.  Off to swimming so not reading the other posts yet, so maybe I will change my mind.  
 

PS:  thanks for investing the time and effort, always interesting to hear how different people see the world in a more detailed way 

I hope you enjoyed your time at the pool--that is definitely a better use of your time than reading anything I have to say.

Another way of explaining Carroll’s point is that if you know how to look and where to look and how to notice something if it is there, then absence of evidence is evidence of absence. If you suspect there might an intruder in your house, if you call the police and they systemically and carefully look throughout the house and don’t find anything, that can be pretty strong evidence that an intruder really isn’t there.

Likewise, if we assume “spirits” have the property of somehow interacting with our physical bodies, then quantum field theory tells us exactly how to detect their influence. Those experiments have been done, and nothing was found.

Anyway, thank you for your interest in my thoughts on this. 

[Analytics]

7 hours ago, OGHoosier said:

As usual, @Analytics, your posts inspire a fruitful sharpening of concepts. I'm gonna quote a lot of articles, with emphasis, all of which is mine.

I'm not as confident that Gazzaniga's evidence shows what he claims it to show. Gazzaniga claims that the halves of the brain, when split by commissurotomy, form two conscious entities with separate senses of self. This is derived from experimental findings like those described in the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy's article on Unity of Consciousness: 

I'm quite hesitant to believe that on the subject of neuroscience, anything written in the Encyclopedia of Philosophy takes precedence over the analysis of a preeminent neuroscience.

Anyway, I didn’t seek out this book because I thought it would reassure me of my preexisting philosophical positions. Rather, I happened to read it because I read books about mainstream science written by mainstream scientists. I’m just a layman, and don’t have any interest in arguing about this stuff with you. But if you know of any good science books on mainstream science geared towards a lay audience, I’d be interested in hearing your recommendations. If you take issue with Gazzaniga’s research, I hope you write about it in the appropriate journals.