Come Follow Me (April 1-7) - Talk about chastity, no mention of polygamy

[TheTanakas]

I had some questions on this section of the Come Follow Me manual.

It deals with Jacob chapters 1 to 4.

While there is a reference to "Jacob 2:22–35; 3:10–12 God delights in chastity",
there is no mention of polygamy.  This is unlike the 2020 version which includes 
a little blurb about it on page 91.

There it states "Note that Jacob also addressed the practice of having more than 
one wife.  What do you find in Jacob 2:23-30 that helps you understand why the 
Lord has, in limited situations, commanded His people to practice plural marriage? "

The only answer to this question I could find from reading the eight verses is 
mentioned in verse 30 - "For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed 
unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things".

I find an example in Doctrine and Covenants 132:34-35 where God is said to have 
commanded someone to practice plural marriage - Abraham with Hagar. Verse 37 expands 
it further by saying Abraham received concubines and they bore him children.

"God commanded Abraham, and Sarah gave Hagar to Abraham to wife. And why did she 
do it? Because this was the law; and from Hagar sprang many people. This, therefore, 
was fulfilling, among other things, the promises".

Doctrine and Covenants 132:1 even says Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Moses also had 
many wives and concubines.  Verse 38 expands this further to include many others 
of God's servants from the beginning of creation until the time the revelation was given
(1843).

Apart from a few LDS leaders that entered into plural marriage (with wives), I 
can't find any mention of them taking many concubines. 

I don't recall seeing many descendants from LDS leaders who engaged with it
either. Was it commanded to some Latter-day leaders for some other purpose than 
raising up much seed?  How about for the early New Testament leaders?

With all the wars mentioned in the Book of Mormon where the male soldiers were 
being killed, I couldn't find a better reason for the need to "raise up seed unto 
God" and yet no Book of Mormon character was commanded to have many wives and 
concubines.  

Why is that?

[juliann]

Concubines are sex slaves. There is no way to pretty that up. If you think God is commanding that, well....  

Polygamy in ancient cultures was a practice of the rich and an accepted part of the culture. It has nothing whatsoever to do with "raising seed" since plural wives have less children per wife than monogamous wives. 

I continue to be mystified why anyone would try to bring Iron Age practices into modern life where women do just fine without husbands. 

[MustardSeed]

2 hours ago, TheTanakas said:

Why is that?

Probably because it hurts women and God loves women just like He loves men and doesn’t command things that do damage. 

[2BizE]

This brings up the question of why did the church practice polygamy when the Book of Mormon clearly forbids it?

[ZealouslyStriving]

12 minutes ago, 2BizE said:

This brings up the question of why did the church practice polygamy when the Book of Mormon clearly forbids it?

It forbade it for them in their circumstances. Why did the prophet on Josiah's court give him two wives?

Edited April 4 by ZealouslyStriving

[Tacenda]

10 minutes ago, 2BizE said:

This brings up the question of why did the church practice polygamy when the Book of Mormon clearly forbids it?

The caveat, unless needing to raise up seed.

[CV75]

3 hours ago, TheTanakas said:

I had some questions on this section of the Come Follow Me manual.

It deals with Jacob chapters 1 to 4.

While there is a reference to "Jacob 2:22–35; 3:10–12 God delights in chastity",
there is no mention of polygamy.  This is unlike the 2020 version which includes 
a little blurb about it on page 91.

There it states "Note that Jacob also addressed the practice of having more than 
one wife.  What do you find in Jacob 2:23-30 that helps you understand why the 
Lord has, in limited situations, commanded His people to practice plural marriage? "

The only answer to this question I could find from reading the eight verses is 
mentioned in verse 30 - "For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed 
unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things".

I find an example in Doctrine and Covenants 132:34-35 where God is said to have 
commanded someone to practice plural marriage - Abraham with Hagar. Verse 37 expands 
it further by saying Abraham received concubines and they bore him children.

"God commanded Abraham, and Sarah gave Hagar to Abraham to wife. And why did she 
do it? Because this was the law; and from Hagar sprang many people. This, therefore, 
was fulfilling, among other things, the promises".

Doctrine and Covenants 132:1 even says Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Moses also had 
many wives and concubines.  Verse 38 expands this further to include many others 
of God's servants from the beginning of creation until the time the revelation was given
(1843).

Apart from a few LDS leaders that entered into plural marriage (with wives), I 
can't find any mention of them taking many concubines. 

I don't recall seeing many descendants from LDS leaders who engaged with it
either. Was it commanded to some Latter-day leaders for some other purpose than 
raising up much seed?  How about for the early New Testament leaders?

With all the wars mentioned in the Book of Mormon where the male soldiers were 
being killed, I couldn't find a better reason for the need to "raise up seed unto 
God" and yet no Book of Mormon character was commanded to have many wives and 
concubines.  

Why is that?

Your 3 questions at the end of your post:

It doesn’t say “much seed,” but “seed.” I take this phrasing in connection with the Abrahamic covenant, with the practice serving as an “appendage” and not as the “requisite” for raising this kind of seed.

As such, it has its fairly limited place and time for establishing the Abrahamic covenant within a community. I think in some earlier dispensations the Lord tolerated its cultural practices (plural marriage, concubinage, etc.)  among His servants just as He permitted (and still permits) divorce. A talk that gets a little more into the divorce aspect: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2007/04/divorce?lang=eng

I would say a reduction in the male population due to war was not a good enough reason by itself for the Lord to institute plural marriage among the descendants of Lehi; the Abrahamic covenant was preserved in many other ways, including the preparation and provision of the Book of Mormon itself.

Edited April 4 by CV75

[MustardSeed]

1 hour ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

It forbade it for them in their circumstances. Why did the prophet on Josiah's court give him two wives?

I hope whomever desires more than one wife gets their wishes granted 😅

[Stargazer]

10 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

I hope whomever desires more than one wife gets their wishes granted 😅

As for me, no man can serve two masters.

[Kenngo1969]

2 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

I hope whomever desires more than one wife gets their wishes granted 😅

Well, It's  like I always say:  Ya hafta "Monog" before ya kin "Polyg"! 😷

[Tacenda]

4 hours ago, CV75 said:

Your 3 questions at the end of your post:

It doesn’t say “much seed,” but “seed.” I take this phrasing in connection with the Abrahamic covenant, with the practice serving as an “appendage” and not as the “requisite” for raising this kind of seed.

As such, it has its fairly limited place and time for establishing the Abrahamic covenant within a community. I think in some earlier dispensations the Lord tolerated its cultural practices (plural marriage, concubinage, etc.)  among His servants just as He permitted (and still permits) divorce. A talk that gets a little more into the divorce aspect: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2007/04/divorce?lang=eng

I would say a reduction in the male population due to war was not a good enough reason by itself for the Lord to institute plural marriage among the descendants of Lehi; the Abrahamic covenant was preserved in many other ways, including the preparation and provision of the Book of Mormon itself.

I guess to each their own when adults living polygamy, but Joseph propositioned the young 14 year old, Helen Mar Kimball, to marry him. And in that day and age it wasn't normal, could have happened, but it wasn't the norm. So the way Joseph Smith lived polygamy is what does me in. But chalk it up to prophets not being infallible just like in the Bible.

[sunstoned]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

I guess to each their own when adults living polygamy, but Joseph propositioned the young 14 year old, Helen Mar Kimball, to marry him. And in that day and age it wasn't normal, could have happened, but it wasn't the norm. So the way Joseph Smith lived polygamy is what does me in. But chalk it up to prophets not being infallible just like in the Bible.

That is a pretty low bar for infallible.  Today it would be called illegal.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

Joseph propositioned the young 14 year old, Helen Mar Kimball, to marry him.

Not quite.  Helen said her father told her first about plural marriage and proposed the marriage to her and the next day Joseph taught her and her parents together or at least taught her with her parents present.  I don’t think it makes it better.  Just being accurate.

Quote

My father had but one Ewe Lamb, but willingly laid her upon the alter: how cruel this seamed to the mother whose heartstrings were already stretched untill they were ready to snap asunder, for he had taken Sarah Noon to wife & she thought she had made sufficient sacrafise, but the Lord required more. I will pass over the temptations which I had during the twenty four hours after my father introduced to me this principle & asked me if I would be sealed to Joseph, who came next morning & with my parents I heard him ^teach & explain the principle of [p. 1] Celestial marrage-after which he said to me, “If you will take this step, it will ensure your eternal salvation and exaltation & that of your father’s household & all of your kindred.

https://rsc.byu.edu/womans-view/appendix-one

https://josephsmithspolygamy.org/plural-wives-overview/helen-mar-kimball/

Quote

 

As Helen declared, her father brokered the union, apparently motivated by a desire to be related to the Prophet through the plural marriage. In another narrative, Helen explained: “He [her father—Heber C. Kimball] taught me the principle of Celestial marriage and having a great desire to be connected with the Prophet, Joseph, he offered me to him; this I afterwards learned from the Prophet’s own mouth.”²

Richard Anderson observed: “Helen says several times that her father took the initiative to arrange the marriage and very possibly he did so with a view to committing her to the Prophet before her budding social life produced a choice or a proposal” from someone else.³

 

 

[Pyreaux]

2 hours ago, sunstoned said:

That is a pretty low bar for infallible.  Today it would be called illegal.

A bit cheap and erroneous. Massachusetts and New Hampshire allow marriages of 14-year-olds today.

[Amulek]

8 hours ago, Pyreaux said:

Massachusetts and New Hampshire allow marriages of 14-year-olds today.

Actually, Massachusetts changed their laws in 2022 to prohibit marriage of minors: https://malegislature.gov/Laws/GeneralLaws/PartII/TitleIII/Chapter207/Section7

However, you are correct about there being states still to this day which have no official minimum age requirement for marriage. My understanding is that they all require parental consent, court approval, or both.

But if Helen Mar Kimball wanted to be sealed to Joseph Smith today, she would be able to do so in California, Mississippi, New Mexico, or Oklahoma.

 

Edited April 5 by Amulek

[ZealouslyStriving]

https://ldsanswers.org/did-joseph-smith-marry-a-14-year-old-girl/

[Tacenda]

22 minutes ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

https://ldsanswers.org/did-joseph-smith-marry-a-14-year-old-girl/

No, 14 was not a normal age in the 1800's. The author of the article here is hiding that fact. https://hammondharwoodhouse.org/18th-century-marriage/#:~:text=In 18th-century America%2C the,enjoy some freedom and power.

[CV75]

11 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I guess to each their own when adults living polygamy, but Joseph propositioned the young 14 year old, Helen Mar Kimball, to marry him. And in that day and age it wasn't normal, could have happened, but it wasn't the norm. So the way Joseph Smith lived polygamy is what does me in. But chalk it up to prophets not being infallible just like in the Bible.

And to each their own on what does them in!

Whatever the facts turn out to be in relation to Joseph and Helen, my remarks still seem to apply:

The practice is an “appendage” to the Abrahamic covenant as a means of concentrating priesthood priority within a community under certain circumstances, and is not “requisite” for keeping the covenant. It is reasonable to believe that is the case in Joseph Smith's dispensation.

It is also reasonable to believe that the Lord tolerated Joseph's interpretation just as he had the cultural practices (plural marriage, concubinage, etc.) among His servants in earlier dispensations. After all, He permitted Moses' practice of divorce.

Joseph's practice obviously had nothing to do with a reduction in the male population due to war, so this is a restoration and preservation of the Abrahamic covenant in another way, as evidenced by the progress Zion has seen since those early days of the Restoration.

 

[CV75]

10 hours ago, sunstoned said:

That is a pretty low bar for infallible.  Today it would be called illegal.

And this falls below an even lower bar for critiquing the events surrounding Joseph and Helen.

[Tacenda]

19 hours ago, Pyreaux said:

A bit cheap and erroneous. Massachusetts and New Hampshire allow marriages of 14-year-olds today.

Just isn't the norm, as has been put forth in factual articles. Maybe for the 14 year old that got pregnant perhaps?

Edited April 6 by Tacenda

[Pyreaux]

16 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Just isn't the norm, as has been put forth in factual articles. Maybe for the 14 year old that go pregnant perhaps?

My only argument against presentism is the PreCrime police arresting historic figures of crimes that weren't crimes then, by saying they are illegal today, when they are not illegal today. I don't know what you imagined I said, or what article I posted.

[ZealouslyStriving]

39 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

No, 14 was not a normal age in the 1800's. The author of the article here is hiding that fact. https://hammondharwoodhouse.org/18th-century-marriage/#:~:text=In 18th-century America%2C the,enjoy some freedom and power.

And the Restoration itself wasn't/isn't the norm. Not being the norm doesn't=precluded.

[MustardSeed]

6 minutes ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

And the Restoration itself wasn't/isn't the norm. Not being the norm doesn't=precluded.

It’s not in the norm  to defend an adult marrying a child but here we are. 

[ZealouslyStriving]

Just now, MustardSeed said:

It’s not in the norm  to defend an adult marrying a child but here we are. 

King Josiah was given two wives by the prophet when he was about 12. Judging former times by modern sensibilities is myopic.

[Tacenda]

29 minutes ago, Pyreaux said:

My only argument against presentism is the PreCrime police arresting historic figures of crimes that weren't crimes then, by saying they are illegal today, when they are not illegal today. I don't know what you imagined I said, or what article I posted.

I was referring to this article and many others I read about the average ages in the 1800's. https://hammondharwoodhouse.org/18th-century-marriage/#:~:text=In 18th-century America%2C the,enjoy some freedom and power.