Calm Posted February 11, 2024 Posted February 11, 2024 4 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said: Only a “Christian” would possibly attempt to call that love. I doubt that. I think it is quite human to want to see oneself as compassionate, but still justify one’s prejudices. 2
Calm Posted February 11, 2024 Posted February 11, 2024 5 hours ago, SteveO said: Did I, or did I not treat that Afghan woman in a Christlike manner? Since you asked and only since you asked…. In one sense—a very, very important sense and probably for her personally in that moment the most important one—you did act as Christ would want you to in helping her, but did you see her at first solely as a child of God? That you registered her nationality and had a negative internal response to her and are now here apparently justifying your dislike of her ethnic group, that behaviour I doubt comes anywhere near to how Christ would have responded to her. I think you harm yourself by holding on to the pain of your prior experience that is making it difficult or impossible even since you apparently have no desire to change, but almost appear to be proud of it. I think it would be better to try and forgive those who harmed you and others so you can stop reacting to total strangers in preprogrammed ways and instead let yourself like or dislike them as individuals. Or even do both. There is a close relative of mine who has done hateful things, who is emotionally abusive to their family, including me. There are also parts of them that try hard to love others, to give of themselves as they can. Recognizing that humans are complex beings and most are a combination of likeable and dislikeable qualities is being realistic, imo, allows us to both protect ourselves and not lock ourselves into treating any others as less than our very extended family. 4
Danzo Posted February 11, 2024 Posted February 11, 2024 29 minutes ago, Calm said: Since you asked and only since you asked…. In one sense—a very, very important sense and probably for her personally in that moment the most important one—you did act as Christ would want you to in helping her, but did you see her at first solely as a child of God? That you registered her nationality and had a negative internal response to her and are now here apparently justifying your dislike of her ethnic group, that behaviour I doubt comes anywhere near to how Christ would have responded to her. I think you harm yourself by holding on to the pain of your prior experience that is making it difficult or impossible even since you apparently have no desire to change, but almost appear to be proud of it. I think it would be better to try and forgive those who harmed you and others so you can stop reacting to total strangers in preprogrammed ways and instead let yourself like or dislike them as individuals. Or even do both. There is a close relative of mine who has done hateful things, who is emotionally abusive to their family, including me. There are also parts of them that try hard to love others, to give of themselves as they can. Recognizing that humans are complex beings and most are a combination of likeable and dislikeable qualities is being realistic, imo, allows us to both protect ourselves and not lock ourselves into treating any others as less than our very extended family. I think the situation, as he described it, shows he is trying to follow the counsel of "love they enemies". Doing good things only for someone you like . . well even the heathens do that. Takes a special commitment to love people who are your (perceived) enemies 3
SteveO Posted February 11, 2024 Posted February 11, 2024 39 minutes ago, Calm said: did you see her at first solely as a child of God? I believe I would not have done what I did if I saw her any other way 31 minutes ago, Calm said: apparently justifying your dislike of her ethnic group I don’t think this is accurate. I said it was something I struggle with and am aware of. 31 minutes ago, Calm said: since you apparently have no desire to change I don’t think this is accurate I think you’re reading too much into this. I didn’t share that story to put myself on a pedestal. I shared it, because I don’t believe the church is a place where we all “like” one another. The entire structure of the church is to worship, work, and progress with people we normally would not. And that’s kind of the point. I’m of the mind of Eugene England on the matter. https://www.eugeneengland.org/why-the-church-is-as-true-as-the-gospel So when a member of the LGBT community comes to church, how am I supposed to show them love, other than act like a decent person to them, and set aside our differences in standards? To look past that and work towards personal growth? As I said, I feel like I’m being lectured to for something I’m not doing, but am quite sure I am. 3
SeekingUnderstanding Posted February 11, 2024 Posted February 11, 2024 (edited) 59 minutes ago, Calm said: I doubt that. I think it is quite human to want to see oneself as compassionate, but still justify one’s prejudices. I do agree it’s quite human to see oneself as compassionate. But here we have a person who seems very fine with their prejudice. Wants to proclaim their prejudice out loud in capital letters. Apparently sees nothing wrong with their dislike of people with no knowledge of their character. At the same time this person believes love is a commandment. Instead of reflecting on their bigotry, they have redefined love so that they can have their cake and eat it too. I personally have a strong dislike of Dallin Oaks. If I found him stranded and in need of help, I would help him graciously. But in no way shape or form would I think that act of kindness means that I love him. It wouldn’t cross my mind. I dislike him. I don’t love him. There is no cognitive dissonance there for me because I’m under no divine command to love. Edited February 11, 2024 by SeekingUnderstanding
SeekingUnderstanding Posted February 11, 2024 Posted February 11, 2024 (edited) 17 minutes ago, Danzo said: I think the situation, as he described it, shows he is trying to follow the counsel of "love they enemies". Doing good things only for someone you like . . well even the heathens do that. Takes a special commitment to love people who are your (perceived) enemies Doing good things for those that you despise does not mean you love them. It might be a good first step to change how you feel about them. But good deeds does not equal love. Edited February 11, 2024 by SeekingUnderstanding 2
SteveO Posted February 11, 2024 Posted February 11, 2024 14 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said: Doing good things for those that you despise does not mean you love them. It might be a good first step to change how you feel about them. But good deeds does not equal love. What if I slapped you across the face. And then told you that I loved you. Would you believe me? If no, how would you be able to justify that belief? 19 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said: At the same time this person believes love is a commandment. It is a commandment. And if it were easy to do, we wouldn’t be commanded to do it. 2
Popular Post MiserereNobis Posted February 11, 2024 Popular Post Posted February 11, 2024 While reading the news articles about Cline, I saw there was a previous time she was reprimanded by posting a picture of an LDS building with a pride flag. She captioned it: "the world is too much with us" Now, I don't know if she was making an allusion or if it was just coincidence, but as a lover and teacher of literature I immediately thought of the first line in William Wordsworth's sonnet "London, 1802." Here it is, in its full glory: Quote The world is too much with us; late and soon, Getting and spending, we lay waste our powers;— Little we see in Nature that is ours; We have given our hearts away, a sordid boon! This Sea that bares her bosom to the moon; The winds that will be howling at all hours, And are up-gathered now like sleeping flowers; For this, for everything, we are out of tune; It moves us not. Great God! I’d rather be A Pagan suckled in a creed outworn; So might I, standing on this pleasant lea, Have glimpses that would make me less forlorn; Have sight of Proteus rising from the sea; Or hear old Triton blow his wreathèd horn. Notice the poem is critiquing materialism and the disconnect it creates with the natural world. "The world" here is not identity politics, cultural wars, or some such. It is the desire for money, for financial success, for a life that pushes us away from nature. Wealth, power, greed, and the oppression of people it takes to get those things is much more the world that Christ warned us about. In Catholicism, there are four sins that cry to heaven: murder, sodomy, oppression of the poor, and defrauding workers of their wages. We all pretty much agree that the first is bad. Too many people focus on the second and forget the third and fourth. Wealth, power, and greed lead to oppression of the poor and defrauding works of their wages. I wish more Catholics and Christians in America would fight against the 3rd and 4th sins with as much enthusiasm as they fight against the 2nd. Unfortunately, many seem to think that we just have to accept #3 and #4 because that's part of capitalism and capitalism is the best option we've got. The Catholic Church teaches that both capitalism and collectivism (communism) are wrong. Sometimes I think Americans think capitalism and a free-market economy is divinely ordered by God. I know I'm on a tangent here, but I find it interesting that Joseph Smith taught a different economic system. Anyways. If the world is too much with us, it is because all we care about are "getting and spending." 5
Calm Posted February 11, 2024 Posted February 11, 2024 (edited) 1 hour ago, SteveO said: te. I said it was something I struggle with and am aware of. My apologies for not giving that part of what you said prominence. That is what is important imo. If we are in the process of trying to change, that is so different than being complacent about our current inability to openly accept, etc. I did not go back and reread your post as I typically will when responding in a more personal way due to being called to dinner. I think it was the capitals at the end of the post that left an impression that you were self satisfied with your current state, but I should have not rushed my post (I hate to leave a post unfinished when going off to do other things) so I had the time to better comprehend yours. Quote I DO NOT HAVE TO LIKE YOU. I DO NOT HAVE TO ACCEPT YOUR LIFE CHOICES. Quote other than act like a decent person to them, and set aside our differences in standards? I think the best and possibly only way to truly turn dislike and discomfort amd even hate to pure love/charity is through service, both in giving and receiving as this gives us opportunities to get to know people and in receiving humble ourselves, which opens us up in many ways like nothing else, imo (which is why God finds it a useful tool imo). Edited February 11, 2024 by Calm 2
Calm Posted February 11, 2024 Posted February 11, 2024 1 hour ago, SeekingUnderstanding said: Doing good things for those that you despise does not mean you love them. It might be a good first step to change how you feel about them. But good deeds does not equal love. They can certainly be done for other reasons, such as wanting to feel good about oneself or not wanting to look like a jerk (not saying this is why SteveO did his, in his description of the woman and child, it appears to me he had compassion for their state). 1
Calm Posted February 11, 2024 Posted February 11, 2024 57 minutes ago, SteveO said: What if I slapped you across the face. And then told you that I loved you. Would you believe me? If no, how would you be able to justify that belief? Can you clarify your point in the above as I am missing it, don’t see the connection?
Calm Posted February 11, 2024 Posted February 11, 2024 56 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said: Sometimes I think Americans think capitalism and a free-market economy is divinely ordered by God. There are some that do in my experience. They believe it will still operate when Christ comes. I don’t understand this for Saints given we had Joseph attempting to have his people live the United Order, but usually the response is their interpretation of the United Order is quite different than mine.
Popular Post Rain Posted February 11, 2024 Popular Post Posted February 11, 2024 7 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said: It’s not possible. Step 1: stop disliking them. Especially for things they didn’t choose and aren’t responsible for. Only a “Christian” would possibly attempt to call that love. In 2021 I was part of a group who were desperately working to get Afghans out before the taliban took over. I still often think of one little family who were hiding in a different place every night and the father's last email to me before we had the close communication for their safety. It haunts me a little to think they might not have got put. I sometimes check names of families coming to Phoenix to see if maybe, just maybe they finally made it here. I also am working on an art program to do with refugees and one of the things I hope it does is help me make a connection with Afghans. I tell you this so you can see I feel very differently than Steve does. When I fist started back in 2016 the leader of an organization I am with told me when I run across people who express fear over possible terrorism from refugees to not engage with them. That fear is natural and arguing against them doesn't help them let go of it. I found her advice to be solid. As I recognize their feelings as valid and understand their fears I find that they are able to put down their swords and shields and sometimes that fear softens. Steve told us that his feelings come from when he was there. It doesn't matter to me what happened to him or what he went through, but there is something there that he hasn't been able to let go of. Would I like him to like good Afghan people? You bet I would. Would I like him to let go of his dislike for his sake? Definitely. But sometimes it isn't as simple as "stop disliking them". Sometimes people carry very heavy burdens we never see. 7
SteveO Posted February 11, 2024 Posted February 11, 2024 41 minutes ago, Calm said: Can you clarify your point in the above as I am missing it, don’t see the connection? He said 1 hour ago, SeekingUnderstanding said: But good deeds does not equal love. Well, you could not rightfully assume that I love you based on my negative action of hitting you. How could you possibly reconcile the two? How then can you turn around and say, a good action also means I don’t love you? The parable of the Good Samaritan isn’t an inner monologue of the Samaritan’s personal struggles of bigotry and finally overcoming them. It’s a story of a man who acted and showed his love and charity through action. The atonement is the single greatest act of love in human history. Show your love. Its absurd to say otherwise 1
SteveO Posted February 11, 2024 Posted February 11, 2024 1 hour ago, Calm said: . I think it was the capitals at the end of the post that left an impression that you were self satisfied with your current state, I’ll use italics next time. I wasn’t yelling or shouting, but emphasizing 1
MustardSeed Posted February 11, 2024 Posted February 11, 2024 If love is a verb, you loved. If love is a thought, perhaps you did it. If love is a feeling, you have work to do. 4
Tacenda Posted February 11, 2024 Posted February 11, 2024 I think the reason SteveO reacted to my post vehemently was the word love in my post. I was all about loving others etc. yada yada. And now see it more clearly how that could be taken like SteveO. I can definitely agree that it would be hard to love all people and it's so easy, NOT. I know SteveO did seem very racist, well he did to me, but he's who he is and there may be some reason to it as Rain shared. Christ mentions to love thy enemies, and I believe SteveO did that, so if you can do that despite your feelings for a certain people, then I'm great with that. In fact it may have been a more difficult thing for him to do since he has these feelings. And showing that kindness as an example for his son as well. So not particularly loving them, but being kind can count as well. 2
Rain Posted February 11, 2024 Posted February 11, 2024 43 minutes ago, Tacenda said: I think the reason SteveO reacted to my post vehemently was the word love in my post. I was all about loving others etc. yada yada. And now see it more clearly how that could be taken like SteveO. I can definitely agree that it would be hard to love all people and it's so easy, NOT. I know SteveO did seem very racist, well he did to me, but he's who he is and there may be some reason to it as Rain shared. I want to be clear that I didn't say there is some reason he is "racist". I said, "there is something there that he hasn't been able to let go of." 43 minutes ago, Tacenda said: Christ mentions to love thy enemies, and I believe SteveO did that, so if you can do that despite your feelings for a certain people, then I'm great with that. In fact it may have been a more difficult thing for him to do since he has these feelings. And showing that kindness as an example for his son as well. So not particularly loving them, but being kind can count as well. There are times when I wonder if it's harder to love those close to you! Love is a funny thing I'm finding. Sometimes I think I'm getting good at it and then I'm presented with a situation that blows that belief apart! But little by little we can get there when we try. 1
Tacenda Posted February 11, 2024 Posted February 11, 2024 24 minutes ago, Rain said: I want to be clear that I didn't say there is some reason he is "racist". I said, "there is something there that he hasn't been able to let go of." There are times when I wonder if it's harder to love those close to you! Love is a funny thing I'm finding. Sometimes I think I'm getting good at it and then I'm presented with a situation that blows that belief apart! But little by little we can get there when we try. I'm sorry, if it looked like that, I mean't the part that you said there might be a reason he feels the way he does. I'm the one who thought it a bit racist what he said. And I coupled that with what you said that there might be reasons he feels the way he does.
Calm Posted February 11, 2024 Posted February 11, 2024 (edited) 11 hours ago, SteveO said: He said Well, you could not rightfully assume that I love you based on my negative action of hitting you. How could you possibly reconcile the two? How then can you turn around and say, a good action also means I don’t love you? That is not what he is saying. He is saying a good deed doesn’t have to mean “I love you”. There are rich people who give money away-a good deed as seen by others-because of tax breaks and good PR, not because they really care about the needy. A good deed can also be done so the person feels good about themselves. A con man might perform a good deed to endear him to his victim. I think I could add quite a few more reasons good deeds get done that have little to do with any type of love except self love. Edited February 11, 2024 by Calm 1
SeekingUnderstanding Posted February 11, 2024 Posted February 11, 2024 13 hours ago, Rain said: But sometimes it isn't as simple as "stop disliking them". Sometimes people carry very heavy burdens we never see. I don’t disagree with anything you said. But here is my issue. If you strongly dislike someone just because they come from Afghanistan, or to the thread because they are trans, don’t pretend to love them. A strong dislike and love cannot coexist.
Nofear Posted February 11, 2024 Posted February 11, 2024 Not siding with Cline or anything lxke that. The issue is more complex than most give it credit for (from both ideological sides). An interseting nytimes oped. https://archive.is/Lb2g5
Calm Posted February 11, 2024 Posted February 11, 2024 (edited) 11 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said: A strong dislike and love cannot coexist. I disagree. I love my relative that is abusive. I remember what they used to be like and I am sure that part of them is still there. I don’t know whether it was abandonment issues (somethings that couldn’t be avoided as they were hospitalized as a toddler) or brain chemistry, but something drastically changed in their teens. I also strongly dislike them at this point in time. They made my parents suffer badly (after being generously cared for while they got back on their feet after a personal crisis) at a time of life my parents should have been supported. They also destroyed their own family (as did their spouse, it breaks my heart what their children went through). Humans are complicated. Contradicting feelings can coexist within us. Edited February 11, 2024 by Calm 3
SteveO Posted February 11, 2024 Posted February 11, 2024 (edited) 11 hours ago, Tacenda said: SteveO reacted to my post vehemently That was not my intention. I was an infantryman in the army, oilfield worker, and construction. I work in semiconductors now, and in my view, it’s the first and only “professional” job I’ve ever had. The rest were…character building. My post is just me being very blunt and to the point. It comes across as abrasive. But no one should read my posts on here with the understanding that they come from a place of anger. 1 hour ago, Calm said: That is not what he is saying. He is saying a good deed doesn’t have to mean “I love you”. There are rich people who give money away-a good deed as seen by others-because of tax breaks and good PR, not because they really care about the needy. A good deed can also be done so the person feels good about themselves. A con man might perform a good deed to endear him to his victim. I think I could add quite a few more reasons good deeds get done that have little to do with any type of love except self love. Okay…yes that is all true. But within the context of the discussion, I think they are irrelevant. We’re talking about Christian Love here. The reason I shared the story, and volunteered the additional information, which no one else would ever know unless I told them, was to specifically negate any accusations of self interest or selfishness. It went against my natural inclinations. The identities of the Samaritan and the Jew in the parable aren’t there for irrelevant story detail… I did what I did because as disciples of Christ, we are commanded to. Should I have wanted To do it? Yes, absolutely. I should want to pay tithing, but lately, it’s been a little more painful than it was a couple years ago. I keep doing it because we’re commanded to. If I treat a person decently, and with compassion and Christlike love, what more can you ask of me? The hang up here, seems to be that people are saying my thoughts and feelings are not in harmony while I do it. Well, you’d never know unless I told you, and besides, it’s no one’s business. It’s between me and God. That’s for me to work on. I’ve done right by the person I showed love to. What else am I expected to do for them? So far, the only response appears to be that I’m supposed to underscore every charitable action with a “BTW, I’m doing this not because Christ commanded me, Im doing it because I truly like you for you.” And that’s the point I’m making. I think the general population, again with some weird expectations like the OP, are welcoming, generous, and loving as best they know how. The hang up, here, I don’t believe is how we treat others. It’s the standards. It’s not enough it seems, to treat people decently, I have to affirm as well. Edited February 11, 2024 by SteveO 2
SeekingUnderstanding Posted February 11, 2024 Posted February 11, 2024 12 minutes ago, Calm said: Humans are complicated. Contradicting feelings can coexist within us. Fair enough. As long as we are acknowledging that they contradict each other. 1
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