Unintended consequence of ***some*** modesty teachings is distrust of men and other insights

[Tacenda]

3 hours ago, bluebell said:

Groping most often happens in public places as well.

My friend had her butt pinched by an adult man when she was 15 standing in line at a convenience store, with a female checker behind the counter and me standing off to the side staring at them waiting for her to finish checking out. This was at 2 in the afternoon and in a town of 6,000 people in a western state.

Neither one of us did anything but be shocked because we had no idea what to do about it at that age.  She turned around and looked at him in shock right after he did it, but he just smiled back at her.

It still makes our blood boil thinking about it decades later. We wish we both would have made a scene and had the checker call the cops.  But we weren’t prepared to be sexually harassed in that place so had no plan on how to deal with it. After that instance though we learned you had to be prepared for it anytime and any place.

This is the "me too" moment that some men make fun of when women look back on it and realize it wasn't acceptable. OR the "me too" movement that men out there are shrugging off. 

[Rock_N_Roll]

3 hours ago, bluebell said:

Groping most often happens in public places as well.

My friend had her butt pinched by an adult man when she was 15 standing in line at a convenience store, with a female checker behind the counter and me standing off to the side staring at them waiting for her to finish checking out. This was at 2 in the afternoon and in a town of 6,000 people in a western state.

Neither one of us did anything but be shocked because we had no idea what to do about it at that age.  She turned around and looked at him in shock right after he did it, but he just smiled back at her.

It still makes our blood boil thinking about it decades later. We wish we both would have made a scene and had the checker call the cops.  But we weren’t prepared to be sexually harassed in that place so had no plan on how to deal with it. After that instance though we learned you had to be prepared for it anytime and any place.

I’ve had my butt pinched and my crotch grabbed and groped by women numerous times while performing in night clubs. Also, had two women at work who liked to pinch and/or grab my butt. I’ve never let it bother me.

But if anyone touches my wife...well that's another thing!

Edited February 14, 2024 by Rock_N_Roll

[bluebell]

20 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

This is the "me too" moment that some men make fun of when women look back on it and realize it wasn't acceptable. OR the "me too" movement that men out there are shrugging off. 

Very much so.

[bluebell]

3 minutes ago, Rock_N_Roll said:

I’ve had my butt pinched and my crotch grabbed and groped by women numerous times while performing in night clubs. Also, had two women at work who liked to pinch and/or grab my butt. I’ve never let it bother me.

But if anyone touches my wife...well that's another thing!

I would guess that when working in a nightclub, the instances of sexual harassment goes way up.  It's not ok but from what I've heard, most men and women in those positions learn to deal with it.   It's sad.

 

[bluebell]

49 minutes ago, Vanguard said:

In my DBT (Dialectical Behavioral Therapy) men's group last night I introduced the concept of nonjudgmental stance which emphasizes the importance of not carrying preconceived or prejudiced notions about others who we do not know. Further down in the text, however, it reads - "If most men or most women have hurt you in life, judgments about that sex might keep you safe psychologically or even physically in some situations." - (underscoring mine). I will typically springboard from that into the scenario of a female who has been abused by her former boyfriend/significant other and is reluctant to date again as she does not want to run the risk of putting herself in that situation again. Her girlfriends remind her she has got to get out there and 'take a chance on love again' but she is reluctant. Finally, she does go out on a date with a new man she met but quickly squelches any chances for a 2nd date because she was triggered by the fact that his hairstyle looked similar to that of her ex's and he drove the same type of car as her ex. She concludes it is simply not in the cards for her to date again as she can really never know. In my scenario the man she went out with is not deserving of this type of prejudice against him as he never has or would abuse a female. I go on to remind the men, however, that it is entirely understandable the woman would have these issues and that I suspect 'behind her eyeballs' it is primarily a question of her very survival. Similarly, I can understand why women might (should?!) carry the concern that any man might be a potential predator/abuser and so it is best to at least be vigilant. Perhaps that stance should soften a bit as the female gets to know the male though some awareness should always remain as we know much of the abuse out there is perpetrated by those the female knows.

The definition of prejudice indicates - preconceived opinion that is not based on reason or actual experience. For females to maintain some form of vigilance against all men is entirely reasonable in my view.        

I was shocked to learn of the number of morbidly obese women who have been molested and/or sexually assaulted.  The fat (and the way that it keeps away the male gaze) becomes a shield of protection for them that a lot say they didn't know they were using until they started to lose the weight, got attention from men, and began having panic attacks and suffering from PTSD because of that attention.

The human body and mind is amazing at trying to protect itself from harm.  Too bad so often it's not a healthy (physically, mentally, or emotionally) way to cope most of the time.

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, Doctor Steuss said:

My younger sister is an MFT that works predominantly with children in the foster system.  One of the things she introduced me to, is that instead of "stranger danger," we should teach about "tricky people." 

Tricky people will lure you in, make promises, and use other tactics to make you let your guard down just long enough to claim another victim.  Tricky people are just waiting for an opportunity, and will play a role until they find it.

Trigger warning (not sure it's needed given the overall theme of the tread, but just in case):  A girl I dated many moons ago was assaulted by a childhood friend and roommate.  They had known each other for about 25 years.  One night, seemingly out of nowhere, after they had gotten back from being out with some friends, he put a knife to her throat, and SA'd her.  Twenty-five years, and then the mask slipped. 

I think a lot of men would be surprised to find out just how many women in their lives have been assaulted.  If they don't know any women who have been, it might be worth some introspection on why they aren't seen as someone who could be entrusted with those traumatic experiences.

That is so horrible.  

Studies have shown that acquaintance rape is often much more psychologically damaging than stranger rape, because it impacts the woman's ability to ever feel safe in any man's presence, and to ever trust her own feelings about someone again.

Couple that with the harm that comes if she tries to report it, since there is a shocking amount of people that don't think acquaintance rape counts as actual rape.  

(I'm out of rep points or I'd give you one)

[Doctor Steuss]

14 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Couple that with the harm that comes if she tries to report it, since there is a shocking amount of people that don't think acquaintance rape counts as actual rape.  

The trauma of reporting is so hard to fully fathom.  I can't even begin to imagine all that is entailed emotionally and psychologically for women (or men) in trying to fully seek justice.  I helped a friend report a rape about 5-ish years ago.  The rape had occurred a few weeks prior, and she had finally built up the courage to report it, but needed some extra support to go through with it.  Even getting to someone to so much as take a report was exhausting.  I spent almost an hour on the phone with the rape hotline, which got us nowhere.  When we finally got an officer to take a basic report (after 5 hours of waiting), some of the questions they asked her were so calloused and accusatory.  It was surreal, watching her essentially be victimized again.  It forever altered my worldview of what women go through when they choose to come forward about their assault.

[bsjkki]

8 minutes ago, Doctor Steuss said:

The trauma of reporting is so hard to fully fathom.  I can't even begin to imagine all that is entailed emotionally and psychologically for women (or men) in trying to fully seek justice.  I helped a friend report a rape about 5-ish years ago.  The rape had occurred a few weeks prior, and she had finally built up the courage to report it, but needed some extra support to go through with it.  Even getting to someone to so much as take a report was exhausting.  I spent almost an hour on the phone with the rape hotline, which got us nowhere.  When we finally got an officer to take a basic report (after 5 hours of waiting), some of the questions they asked her were so calloused and accusatory.  It was surreal, watching her essentially be victimized again.  It forever altered my worldview of what women go through when they choose to come forward about their assault.

Maddening. 

[MustardSeed]

13 minutes ago, Doctor Steuss said:

The trauma of reporting is so hard to fully fathom.  I can't even begin to imagine all that is entailed emotionally and psychologically for women (or men) in trying to fully seek justice.  I helped a friend report a rape about 5-ish years ago.  The rape had occurred a few weeks prior, and she had finally built up the courage to report it, but needed some extra support to go through with it.  Even getting to someone to so much as take a report was exhausting.  I spent almost an hour on the phone with the rape hotline, which got us nowhere.  When we finally got an officer to take a basic report (after 5 hours of waiting), some of the questions they asked her were so calloused and accusatory.  It was surreal, watching her essentially be victimized again.  It forever altered my worldview of what women go through when they choose to come forward about their assault.

I see that a lot in my work as a therapist. 

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, bluebell said:

Sad but true.  I think it would probably be more accurate to say "almost always" because most recognize that they have to hide their deviancy (at least from the public and from women in the beginning) if they want to continue to have access to their prey. 

Also, there was a study done (I can get the particulars for anyone that is interested but I'm not going to go and grab the book and look it up right now) where a man studied men who rape without them really knowing that's what he was studying.  Because of the way that he put the questions, he got them to be incredibly candid about how they treated women.

One guy was a college senior and he talked in length about how he and his buddies would target certain college girls throughout the week (usually the freshmen and sophomores because they weren't as wary yet), pretend to be interested in them, get them to come to a frat party, get them blackout drunk, and then have sex with them.  He spoke about how most of the time the girls were unconscious but sometimes they would try to resist but he would just ignore them and keep doing what he wanted.  He talked about how it was the perfect system and he and his buddies thought they were so smart to have come up with it.

But he did not consider himself to be a rapist and he didn't believe that he had ever raped anyone.  Sexual predators even hide from themselves.

 

I read one bit where a researcher said he could get guys like this to agree on what constituted rape, agree that what he did met the criteria, but still denied that it was rape. There is a lot of ‘it is only rape if a bad person does it and I am not bad’ rationalizing.

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

I would guess that when working in a nightclub, the instances of sexual harassment goes way up.  It's not ok but from what I've heard, most men and women in those positions learn to deal with it.   It's sad.

They do. If straight guys want to understand this visit a gay club with this kind of atmosphere. It is much easier to understand the problem when you have been the target of it. One of my friends liked to go to gay clubs because it meant she could focus on dancing and not defense. She took her husband but only once. He asked if that is what women face all the time. Yep.

Swinger clubs are often bad too. Strip clubs are a mix based on enforcement.

Many kink clubs are almost paradoxically better since most restrict alcohol (due to safety issues) and have an emphasis on consent.

Some of the most common minor incidents are the ones discussed where the predator just does something invasive and relies on everyone being too confused or shocked to do anything.

[Raingirl]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

That is so horrible.  

Studies have shown that acquaintance rape is often much more psychologically damaging than stranger rape, because it impacts the woman's ability to ever feel safe in any man's presence, and to ever trust her own feelings about someone again.

Couple that with the harm that comes if she tries to report it, since there is a shocking amount of people that don't think acquaintance rape counts as actual rape.  

(I'm out of rep points or I'd give you one)

I previously worked at a Catholic university, where I was part of the support team that responded to sexual assault on campus.  One of the priests,who lived in the dorms, also took the training. He was genuinely baffled by the reality that most assaults are committed by an acquaintance or family member.  He didn’t think that was possible. He’s teaching at a university, living on campus, and didn’t understand that date rape is a reality. 

[The Nehor]

50 minutes ago, Doctor Steuss said:

The trauma of reporting is so hard to fully fathom.  I can't even begin to imagine all that is entailed emotionally and psychologically for women (or men) in trying to fully seek justice.  I helped a friend report a rape about 5-ish years ago.  The rape had occurred a few weeks prior, and she had finally built up the courage to report it, but needed some extra support to go through with it.  Even getting to someone to so much as take a report was exhausting.  I spent almost an hour on the phone with the rape hotline, which got us nowhere.  When we finally got an officer to take a basic report (after 5 hours of waiting), some of the questions they asked her were so calloused and accusatory.  It was surreal, watching her essentially be victimized again.  It forever altered my worldview of what women go through when they choose to come forward about their assault.

And the sad truth is that often the report doesn’t accomplish anything.

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, Raingirl said:

I previously worked at a Catholic university, where I was part of the support team that responded to sexual assault on campus.  One of the priests,who lived in the dorms, also took the training. He was genuinely baffled by the reality that most assaults are committed by an acquaintance or family member.  He didn’t think that was possible. He’s teaching at a university, living on campus, and didn’t understand that date rape is a reality. 

So sad!  And tragic because he would not be a safe space for someone who had been raped by an acquaintance.  

[Calm]

10 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

I’m sorry that this is shocking news to some.  It’s a reality that I don’t think about consciously every minute of every day but it’s a latent awareness constantly that becomes more clear when the topic arises.  Many women know and understand.  Some men understand, but will never know.  Many men just don’t know or understand- it’s a shocking reality and very sad indeed.  Until more seek to understand, reality cannot be altered. 

I think some men might be able to get it if they were abused as children though I do wonder if it is even possible. I doubt that sense of vulnerability, being weak and unable to resist physically at least successfully, ever goes away. But there is a different component of the male experience and female experience due to how society approaches them differently and I don’t know if they overlap enough to be shared. A man may feel personally weak and vulnerable, but culture doesn’t teach him he is that way because of his sex.  A male doesn’t grow up with the refrain of being of the “weaker sex” with all its variations in his face all the time nor does culture push on him a responsibility to please others by smiling all the time, being nice, etc.  There are probably some men told by a mother or grandmother to smile more, but I doubt strangers tell boys or men that even 1/100 times as much.   There are other emotional expectations that are different as well that complicate the experience and make the totality of it harder to convey. 

I am not saying women have it worse as I think some of culture’s expectations for males not to show suffering or to devalue many of their emotions are so unhealthy and dangerous for males and I am grateful those are not pushed into my sex group as well. I am just saying the experiences are different enough I am not sure a male even on the ‘weak’ end of the male social spectrum, someone who has been bullied all their life and expect to be bullied till they die would have the same sense of restriction/expectations of behaviour that sets a woman in our culture up to too easily to be a victim that thinks they deserve their pain, etc. 

I think the difficulty in understanding what cultural expectations do to a group is very hard to convey because it is like asking someone to explain what air is like and breathing as one doesn’t usually pay close attention to it. There are aspects easy to describe like the chemical makeup of it, but how to describe the feels of air and the sensation when deprived of it to someone who hasn’t experienced it?    I use “air” here instead of the usual “what does salt taste like” because the experience of air is constant, everywhere, relevant to every moment of existence even if awareness of air is barely there at the back of one’s mind…and for many women that is similar to the experience of vulnerability to abuse/violence.

And it doesn’t help we can’t climb inside someone’s skull to make sure they understand how we want them to understand and just have words to exchange that may mean very different things to each…and that may not even be recognized just as the difference in interpretation and therefore implications of “all men are potential rapists” does not seem to be recognized by some in this thread and insistence it can only reasonably mean one thing is blocking comprehension of what others are saying, imo. 

Edited February 15, 2024 by Calm

[Calm]

9 hours ago, Rain said:

This is WAY too long, but...  "You can't always tell the difference between a sexual assaulter and a safe man ahead of time. Or between a dangerous place and a safe one."

The problem for me with this type of phrasing is what is needed is the equivalent of the shocking redness and bold words of a stop sign, imo, to keep us reacting instinctively and quickly.  I believe we need something short and easy to remember so as to plug into our protective routines easily and without thinking as we spend so much energy just having to be careful that to have to spend even more to tiptoe around the subject so that others feel less threatened by our need to protect ourselves is asking too much for many women. 

We don’t need to broadcast it constantly to use it as a survival mechanism…as evidenced by the men who have been unaware of this being part of many women’s mentality for decades.  

Bringing it up in conversations though is also useful if people are willing to allow others to frame their experience in their own terms because it can grab attention and open doors of others’ minds if they go to “what in that woman’s experience has led her to take such a position?” rather than needing to correct that perspective. 

Edited February 15, 2024 by Calm

[Calm]

9 hours ago, Doctor Steuss said:

I think a lot of men would be surprised to find out just how many women in their lives have been assaulted.  If they don't know any women who have been, it might be worth some introspection on why they aren't seen as someone who could be entrusted with those traumatic experiences

There are a lot of good men out there (from what I know of them at least) I would trust to tell if the need arose, but the need hasn’t and likely never will, so I wouldn’t assume something is lacking in a man who hasn’t been told of trauma as they just may know lucky women…though if they believe they are close to a number of women they should take the time to seriously examine themselves why it hasn’t come up one way or another given the frequency of such experiences.  And if they care about being a resource for healing, they can look into what kind of language and attitudes convey that so if a female friend or relative does end up needing support, they are ready as they can be  

Men should definitely not assume that because a woman hasn’t shared with them that it hasn’t happened to that individual.  First off, appropriate times to bring up the experiences are pretty rare (the value of the #Metoo movement). One would need to create the opportunity and if one is going to do that, there needs to be a payoff because there is risk that sharing will result in changes in behaviour that are not desired (most women don’t want to be treated as a victim needing to be coddled, we want the assaults and harassment to stop and space given us to heal, but we don’t need or even want a ton of people involved in that healing). 

A lot of women are also programmed to put others’ emotional needs first and therefore it isn’t useful to them to upset others as part of their healing process, they will prefer to limit sharing to those who won’t make it their own problem they need to fix…an attribute of self centered individuals, but also of many caring men and women whose desire to fix things or at least help is valuable in some situations such as when a person is incapacitated and unable to care for oneself, but destructive when what the individual needs is to find out what works for them and not get imposed upon by what others think they need or for the other to take the issue and make it about them and their reaction rather than keeping it focused where it should be (I am highly concerned about this kind of behaviour being prone to it myself because of my mother’s need to reframe everything that she encountered as “what does this mean for me”).

And there are a lot of women who don’t want to share because it refreshes the pain for them, especially if the other reacts with strong emotion. They have coped by putting distance between them and the trauma, sometimes even managed to mostly forget it by rewriting it as not that big of a deal.

Edited February 15, 2024 by Calm

[Calm]

7 hours ago, Rock_N_Roll said:

I’ve never let it bother me.

Do you attempt to get them to stop?  If you do, I applaud you. If you don’t because you see it as no big deal…

Maybe you should let it bother you for the sake of others who experience that as trauma for whatever reason (perhaps they were abused as children and being assaulted takes them back there)?

You have a right to be bothered by it. I would say even a duty (though perhaps I am wrong) where it is possible to act without creating greater harm to yourself because it won’t stop until people say to stop.

You not reacting (if that is what happens) conveys the message to the predator that it is safe for them to assault others. I assume that is not a message you want to send. 
 

It may not be possible to do much but at least not smiling and laughing about it, conveying dismissiveness surely is possible?  What would happen if your face at least showed anger or you told them to stop?

I probably should not lecture on behaviour in a place I have never been in and now never want to. 

Edited February 15, 2024 by Calm

[Calm]

19 hours ago, longview said:

The points being made about the prevalence of sexual assaults of varying degrees are VERY sobering and real. It would be agonizing for it happen to my relatives.

However the prefix "all men" is still too jarring. The word "potentially" is utterly a blanket condemnation. Would it be better to use non-absolutist terms? How about this? "Women have a very real dread of any man that could suddenly make an assault any time any place."

After all, there is a significant percentage (hopefully) of men who have NEVER degraded women and would "shake at the appearance of evil."

That is not a bad way of describing the why.  And there are plenty of conversations where I do not see the “all men are potential rapists” as useful and it can even mess up understanding.

I just believe it works for two very limited purposes, both of which are about grabbing attention almost instinctively.

For me the “all men are potential rapists” serves a very real and necessary purpose by its very ability to shock, it tells me and other women we should never become complacent first off…it is unfortunate, but a real necessity as you can see by the examples of groping described above that we need to stay alert so where possible we can call someone to accountability as that is going to be the only way the pervasiveness of harassment and assault is going to decrease (it’s not the only needed solution, attitudes need to change as well) or at least to remove ourselves as soon as possible from danger, we need to know who did it in order to best remove ourselves from their vicinity.

Its ability to shock has also been successful in my experience in getting men’s attention as well and getting them to pay attention and has led to men vocalizing to me and other women from what these women have said (though this isn’t something that has happened a lot as this doesn’t come up that often) and comments by men I have read over the years that their mindset towards harassment and assault has changed drastically as a result of conversations like we are having in this thread.  #Metoo had a similar effect.

So while the precision loving, slogan hating person that I am highly dislikes using this kind of thing, this is imo one of the rare times it is not only justified imo, but needed.

I am willing to be convinced I am wrong, but the possible alternatives that have been given in the thread are more distracting from alertness to danger than the infamous “all men potential rapist” phrase, imo.  Think of it as the difference between reading the description of the look and purpose of a stop sign in a manual vs the experience of seeing a stop sign while out driving.  One thing my Fibro brain has taught me is that thinking takes energy, energy that can be used to digest the words or used to act.  Most of the time I am all for a balanced approach as I don’t believe living on auto pilot is embracing life (except where intentionally done with useful routines like cleaning and exercise).  When it comes to safety, making it as easy and as least stressful as possible is best imo.  

I think it is a useful mantra, a useful conversation starter, and at times a useful lever for getting perspectives to shift.  Problems with it as far as I have seen is when context is ignored because the phrase itself becomes a target to attack or when used as a weapon to bludgeon the other (like the rare feminist who takes the phrase to “all men are rapists”).

For me, a stop sign is very useful because I hate look of the sign…it is so intrusive.  I have to pay attention.  “All men are potential rapists” is useful as a safety measure because it too is very intrusive.

Edited February 15, 2024 by Calm

[california boy]

I will throw this into the mix.  I know women who purposefully hang out with gay men.  The go to gay bars, or hang out in the gay section of a beach. or music festivals, or often adopt a gay buddy to hang out with them.  If the person is truly gay, then seems like there is a certain trust that they are in a safe environment.  

I have been in situations were I have actually felt women coming next to where I was and striking up a conversation.  I could tell that they felt uncomfortable about something and though I would be a safe haven.  If they still feel nervous, I may tell them about my partner and how much in love we are.  If he is there, I might even kiss him in front of her.  

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, california boy said:

I will throw this into the mix.  I know women who purposefully hang out with gay men.  The go to gay bars, or hang out in the gay section of a beach. or music festivals, or often adopt a gay buddy to hang out with them.  If the person is truly gay, then seems like there is a certain trust that they are in a safe environment.  

I have been in situations were I have actually felt women coming next to where I was and striking up a conversation.  I could tell that they felt uncomfortable about something and though I would be a safe haven.  If they still feel nervous, I may tell them about my partner and how much in love we are.  If he is there, I might even kiss him in front of her.  

Yeah, thinking back now I may have sometimes been an unwelcome surprise in such environments. In my younger wild and sinful days of yore I dated another bisexual guy and we would often hang out in gay spaces. Sometimes women would come and talk to us and want to hang out with the cute gay couple. We would flirt with them a little and it often took them a while to realize we weren’t just play-flirting and were actually attracted to her.

[BlueDreams]

21 hours ago, bluebell said:

I was shocked to learn of the number of morbidly obese women who have been molested and/or sexually assaulted.  The fat (and the way that it keeps away the male gaze) becomes a shield of protection for them that a lot say they didn't know they were using until they started to lose the weight, got attention from men, and began having panic attacks and suffering from PTSD because of that attention.

The human body and mind is amazing at trying to protect itself from harm.  Too bad so often it's not a healthy (physically, mentally, or emotionally) way to cope most of the time.

I had a similar experience when I was heavily pregnant. I walked out of an event with a friend. We were both big with baby, it was in downtown salt lake, and we needed to walk by a bar where two men were outside. Instinctively I tensed, knowing circumstances like this usually would give me unwanted attention that left me feeling at risk or intruded on. Instead we had a nice question about where we got some cookies we were holding. The response stuck out to me because of how weird it was from my usual experiences. It was so nice to not be noticed. The release of that weight was palpable. Who cares if my hips constantly hurt. 

Another time a few years before while not pregnant, I was walking down the street in sandy UT to a local Target with my study cards and my full body therapist business attire. It was all of a mile away from my office in broad daylight. I got honked/catcalled twice and a man in a truck tried to see if I wanted into his vehicle in a manner that felt very solicity. After that, I tried to avoid the main road, especially during lunch hour. 

Speaking of prejudices, I have a firm distrust of male truck drivers. Almost every man who has honked, leered, or catcalled me as a pedestrian has been in one.

 

With luv, 

BD 

 

[Doctor Steuss]

16 hours ago, Calm said:

There are a lot of good men out there (from what I know of them at least) I would trust to tell if the need arose, but the need hasn’t and likely never will, so I wouldn’t assume something is lacking in a man who hasn’t been told of trauma as they just may know lucky women…though if they believe they are close to a number of women they should take the time to seriously examine themselves why it hasn’t come up one way or another given the frequency of such experiences.  And if they care about being a resource for healing, they can look into what kind of language and attitudes convey that so if a female friend or relative does end up needing support, they are ready as they can be  

Men should definitely not assume that because a woman hasn’t shared with them that it hasn’t happened to that individual.  First off, appropriate times to bring up the experiences are pretty rare (the value of the #Metoo movement). One would need to create the opportunity and if one is going to do that, there needs to be a payoff because there is risk that sharing will result in changes in behaviour that are not desired (most women don’t want to be treated as a victim needing to be coddled, we want the assaults and harassment to stop and space given us to heal, but we don’t need or even want a ton of people involved in that healing). 

A lot of women are also programmed to put others’ emotional needs first and therefore it isn’t useful to them to upset others as part of their healing process, they will prefer to limit sharing to those who won’t make it their own problem they need to fix…an attribute of self centered individuals, but also of many caring men and women whose desire to fix things or at least help is valuable in some situations such as when a person is incapacitated and unable to care for oneself, but destructive when what the individual needs is to find out what works for them and not get imposed upon by what others think they need or for the other to take the issue and make it about them and their reaction rather than keeping it focused where it should be (I am highly concerned about this kind of behaviour being prone to it myself because of my mother’s need to reframe everything that she encountered as “what does this mean for me”).

And there are a lot of women who don’t want to share because it refreshes the pain for them, especially if the other reacts with strong emotion. They have coped by putting distance between them and the trauma, sometimes even managed to mostly forget it by rewriting it as not that big of a deal.

Thank you Calm for taking the time to share this perspective, and helping me to shift my view.

[Tacenda]

5 hours ago, Doctor Steuss said:

Thank you Calm for taking the time to share this perspective, and helping me to shift my view.

I think women are embarrassed to share things happened to them in the past. I've been that way. I don't even want to discuss with my husband because weirdly I worry he'll blame me for some things. It's really strange and I don't know if it's a thing, but thinking I'm not alone in my worrying thanks to Calm. 

Edited February 15, 2024 by Tacenda

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On 2/14/2024 at 6:51 PM, Calm said:

And there are plenty of conversations where I do not see the “all men are potential rapists” as useful and it can even mess up understanding.
I just believe it works for two very limited purposes, both of which are about grabbing attention almost instinctively.
For me the “all men are potential rapists” serves a very real and necessary purpose by its very ability to shock, it tells me and other women we should never become complacent first off…it is unfortunate, but a real necessity as you can see by the examples of . . .

On the other hand, shocking in this way could end up being self-defeating. We have been subjected to ever increasing barrage of wild demands and expressions of social justice outrage for years and decades. Just to list a few examples:

• advocacy for regulations to force installation of a 3rd bathroom to accommodate various uncountable genders
• tweaking Title IX to force women athletes to share locker rooms with biological men claiming to be tran
• empowering the medical/industrial complex to perform surgical mutilations and chemical castration of under age children
• demonizing males or whatever patriarchy
• underhanded subterfuge by allowing many K-12 administrators to sidestep the rights of parents to be informed when children are being subjected to social experimentation

These things cause greater polarization. The absolutist statement would likely be considered to be divisive and would tend to shut down dialogue. Thus being prejudicial. My alternative appeals to empathy and invites further discussion. At worse, it might be considered semi-prejudicial.