Unintended consequence of ***some*** modesty teachings is distrust of men and other insights

[Calm]

10 hours ago, longview said:

On the other hand, shocking in this way could end up being self-defeating. We have been subjected to ever increasing barrage of wild demands and expressions of social justice outrage for years and decades. Just to list a few examples:

• advocacy for regulations to force installation of a 3rd bathroom to accommodate various uncountable genders
• tweaking Title IX to force women athletes to share locker rooms with biological men claiming to be tran
• empowering the medical/industrial complex to perform surgical mutilations and chemical castration of under age children
• demonizing males or whatever patriarchy
• underhanded subterfuge by allowing many K-12 administrators to sidestep the rights of parents to be informed when children are being subjected to social experimentation

These things cause greater polarization. The absolutist statement would likely be considered to be divisive and would tend to shut down dialogue. Thus being prejudicial. My alternative appeals to empathy and invites further discussion. At worse, it might be considered semi-prejudicial.

It is possible it might do that.  This is something I would love to see studies on. My guess is it depends on at least three things, first the size of the group the idea is being shared with because the larger the group the less personal the sharing will come across in and my guess the more prone someone whose tendency is to debate rather than listen will shift to that approach.

I think it could also be dependent on how close someone is to the woman sharing this. If close, they will most likely view the conversation in a more personal way and it will be more about understanding why than politics, etc.

It would also likely require someone more interested in the person involved than looking on it as an argument or needing to make a point or to persuade the woman to change her mind. 

If any man does get that desire to debate as the first response to being told this by a woman they are close to, at that point I really hope they step back and keep their mouth shut for awhile so they don’t lose the chance to learn about her feelings and needs and before engaging with her to debate take the time to think about why they feel they need to change the woman’s mind more than listen to her view, her description of what she does to protect herself from danger. 

Edited February 16 by Calm

[The Nehor]

11 hours ago, longview said:

On the other hand, shocking in this way could end up being self-defeating. We have been subjected to ever increasing barrage of wild demands and expressions of social justice outrage for years and decades. Just to list a few examples:

• advocacy for regulations to force installation of a 3rd bathroom to accommodate various uncountable genders
• tweaking Title IX to force women athletes to share locker rooms with biological men claiming to be tran
• empowering the medical/industrial complex to perform surgical mutilations and chemical castration of under age children
• demonizing males or whatever patriarchy
• underhanded subterfuge by allowing many K-12 administrators to sidestep the rights of parents to be informed when children are being subjected to social experimentation

These things cause greater polarization. The absolutist statement would likely be considered to be divisive and would tend to shut down dialogue. Thus being prejudicial. My alternative appeals to empathy and invites further discussion. At worse, it might be considered semi-prejudicial.

Why not leave framing this to the people who are coping with the actual problem instead of tone policing them? Your approach doesn’t lead to dialogue. It has been tried. Even with the “shocking” framing many men have no idea it is going on. With the more milquetoast version even fewer well. I don’t think either will work. Moroni may be onto something:

“and when I speak the word of God with sharpness they tremble and anger against me; and when I use no sharpness they harden their hearts against it;”

You compare this to your paranoid transphobia which you think is all nonsense. Are you actually persuadable or are you just asking it to be toned down so it is easier to ignore?

[Calm]

PS:  please let’s not use this thread to get into transgender issues and stay focus on the topic of how to teach modesty, including the implications of what happens when we teach women to distrust men by telling women and girls the way we dress controls how men and boys think and feel to the point we need to assume responsibility for their thoughts and feelings.

Where does distrust of men lead to?

Obviously modesty teachings of this type are not the only cause of distrust of men.  Plenty of real life experience teaches distrust as well.

I think a discussion of whether the personal experience of being assaulted and harassed creates a different type of distrust and how the two might blend together to create a greater obstacle to women feeling safe and men and women connecting on a deeper level through mutual respect than either on their own.

I say this because I think the modesty teaching of women being the gatekeepers of men’s sexual feelings by our appearance, etc is dangerous because it gets applied as a weakness inherent in all men as in they will all be bad unless women protect them from theirselves as opposed to the “all men are potential rapists” adage which is not usually intended to imply there is something wrong or immoral in all men, but rather from the outside we can’t always tell the difference between good and bad men (though some may infer that from it).

 

[Calm]

23 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Are you actually persuadable or are you just asking it to be toned down so it is easier to ignore?

I think Longview is clear that he accepts the sexual assaults and harassments as real here and that his issue is how best to discuss it:

Quote

The points being made about the prevalence of sexual assaults of varying degrees are VERY sobering and real. It would be agonizing for it happen to my relatives. 

I don’t see him as wanting to ignore it, but perhaps he wants to be more comfortable with it?  Or maybe he is just being practical thinking conversations will spend more time dealing with the adage AMAPR than figuring out what to do about it.

 My problem with putting aside the shock aspect, softening the reality or making it more abstract does not appear to me to make much of a difference in that there is still a lot of those who are first and foremost concerned that they and men in general are not held responsible for what other men do or in any way grouped with them.

I know the value of AMAPR and am reluctant to sacrifice it for something I am unsure of.  It’s not like I or others use it in every conversation I have on this topic.  I mention it in this one because of one of the sources of distrust of men being mentioned in the video, distrust that is often described by AMAPR.

Edited February 16 by Calm

[SeekingUnderstanding]

29 minutes ago, Calm said:

Obviously modesty teachings of this type are not the only cause of distrust of men.  Plenty of real life experience teaches distrust as well.

I think a discussion of whether the personal experience of being assaulted and harassed creates a different type of distrust and how the two might blend together to create a greater obstacle to women feeling safe and men and women connecting on a deeper level through mutual respect than either on their own.

I think beyond this, men hearing this message shift blame for their own thoughts and actions onto women. Talks like this:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/2014/03/the-lords-standard-of-morality?lang=eng

Leading to situations like this one:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-9986891/amp/Man-told-bikini-clad-teens-beach-cover-bodies-pornography-FIRED.html
 

 

[longview]

12 hours ago, Calm said:

If any man does get that desire to debate as the first response to being told this by a woman they are close to, at that point I really hope they step back and keep their mouth shut for awhile so they don’t lose the chance to learn about her feelings and needs and before engaging with her to debate take the time to think about why they feel they need to change the woman’s mind more than listen to her view, her description of what she does to protect herself from danger. 

So true. It seems women deal with greater complexity whereas men tend to oversimply things. Let the woman talk out the complexity. Physiological fact: women have more hemispheric brain connections but men have one puny thread connection.

1 hour ago, Calm said:

I say this because I think the modesty teaching of women being the gatekeepers of men’s sexual feelings by our appearance, etc is dangerous because it gets applied as a weakness inherent in all men as in they will all be bad unless women protect them from theirselves as opposed to the “all men are potential rapists” adage which is not usually intended to imply there is something wrong or immoral in all men, but rather from the outside we can’t always tell the difference between good and bad men (though some may infer that from it).

Agree. Even among moslem women wearing the niqab, they are still subjected to rape and violence. Some men do it for thrill, power or something. 
That said, it still is important to try to reduce divisive rhetoric among all parties.

[Calm]

2 hours ago, longview said:

So true. It seems women deal with greater complexity whereas men tend to oversimply things. Let the woman talk out the complexity. Physiological fact: women have more hemispheric brain connections but men have one puny thread connection.

Agree. Even among moslem women wearing the niqab, they are still subjected to rape and violence. Some men do it for thrill, power or something. 
That said, it still is important to try to reduce divisive rhetoric among all parties.

Unofficial rep point or two for you.  And I do think one should take care where and when using the AMAPR adage.  I feel okay using it here because I am given as much space and time to explain myself to anyone willing to listen.  I probably won’t with anyone I had a limited time to discuss it with.

Edited February 16 by Calm

[Calm]

5 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

I think beyond this, men hearing this message shift blame for their own thoughts and actions onto women. Talks like this:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/2014/03/the-lords-standard-of-morality?lang=eng

Leading to situations like this one:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-9986891/amp/Man-told-bikini-clad-teens-beach-cover-bodies-pornography-FIRED.html
 

 

Quote

Women particularly can dress modestly and in the process contribute to their own self-respect and to the moral purity of men. In the end, most women get the type of man they dress for.

If the moral purity of a man is dependent on the way women dress around him, he better become a monk in a monastery that allows no contact with women and no TV, etc.  (Assuming the Catholics are willing to let him in. )Our culture is awash in what is viewed as immodest dress in the Church.

And the “in the end most women get the type of man they dress for….” Ugh because of what he appears to intend with it tying it to modesty.

But at least he included “most”.  And he is probably right in the sense that people tend to wear similar clothing to the people they hang out with, so married couples probably overlap a lot in style.  A woman who wears tshirts and jeans a lot is less likely to hook up with a man who wears suits every day.

 But it translates too easily to if you got a well dressed man who beats you, there was probably something wrong with the way you dressed rather than the guy deceived you and it has nothing to do with your clothing and everything to do with him being a …..

Edited February 16 by Calm

[bluebell]

3 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

I think beyond this, men hearing this message shift blame for their own thoughts and actions onto women. Talks like this:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/2014/03/the-lords-standard-of-morality?lang=eng

Leading to situations like this one:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-9986891/amp/Man-told-bikini-clad-teens-beach-cover-bodies-pornography-FIRED.html
 

 

We had a bad decade for modesty and girls and I'm so glad that we are coming out of it.  The whole idea of 'walking pornography' was so incredibly damaging.

[Tacenda]

6 hours ago, bluebell said:

We had a bad decade for modesty and girls and I'm so glad that we are coming out of it.  The whole idea of 'walking pornography' was so incredibly damaging.

I wonder if it is a problem, this happened in the last few years. My friend who I play PB with said when they were at girls' camp, I think a year or so ago, and she rolled up her sleeves a little but not past her garment sleeve and got told to roll down her sleeve by a male leader. Maybe several of the YW leaders rolled them, not sure. But basically got shamed into unrolling their short sleeve. This sounds crazy I know, but this is what she said. Pretty sure it was more recent then even 5 years. 

Edited February 17 by Tacenda

[Tacenda]

dbl post

Edited February 17 by Tacenda

[Calm]

9 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I wonder if it is a problem, this happened in the last few years. My friend who I play PB with said when they were at girls' camp I think a year or so ago she rolled up her sleeves a little but not past her garment sleeve and got told to roll down her sleeve by a male leader. Maybe several of the YW leaders rolled them, not sure. But basically got shamed into unrolling their short sleeve. This sounds crazy I know, but this is what she said. Pretty sure it was more recent then even 5 years. 

Some hang on to foolish traditions. 

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

I wonder if it is a problem, this happened in the last few years. My friend who I play PB with said when they were at girls' camp, I think a year or so ago, and she rolled up her sleeves a little but not past her garment sleeve and got told to roll down her sleeve by a male leader. Maybe several of the YW leaders rolled them, not sure. But basically got shamed into unrolling their short sleeve. This sounds crazy I know, but this is what she said. Pretty sure it was more recent then even 5 years. 

Oh that man would have not liked me.  I hope she didn't do it!

Some people (especially the older people) are still stuck in those bad decades.