Was Joseph at the Savior's Crucifixion?

[nuclearfuels]

Or did the Jews' violence - or insistence on the Roman use of violence, their favorite SOP - such that Joseph also would have lost his life if he had been there? 

 

[blackstrap]

I think Joseph was out of the picture , otherwise why give Mary's care to John ?

[bluebell]

I think most people assume that Joseph had died by that point, since Jesus entrusted his mother to John.  If Joseph had still been alive I don't think that would have been necessary.

[mfbukowski]

Is this about time travel or history?

There are at least 3 Josephs that come immediately to mind....

 

[blackstrap]

29 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

There are at least 3 Josephs that come immediately to mind....

It is possible that all three watched from a distance.

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, blackstrap said:

It is possible that all three watched from a distance.

If that's possible, so is ANY possible answer to the question.

It needs just a little clarification, plus some context.  If any were there and yelling to stop the crucifixion there would be different consequences than if they were hiding in the anonymous crowd of observers.

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, blackstrap said:

It is possible that all three watched from a distance.

Everyone says they were at the crucifixion. It is a thing.

 

[blackstrap]

Consider: Joseph Smith JR. watching from the premortal spirit world.

                  Joseph of Egypt watching from the post mortal Spirit world. 

                   Joseph the carpenter father watching from a hill or keeping Joseph of Egypt company. 

Let's not forget Joseph Smith Sr. and Nephi's brother Joseph and the tomb owner Joseph and all the Josès elsewhere in the world. 😁

[Pyreaux]

The tradition in Catholicism is Joseph was older, about 40 when he wed Mary and had died by the time Jesus was 30. He's nowhere after losing Jesus in the temple, and we don't suppose his death would be premature with Jesus around.

[mfbukowski]

 

40 minutes ago, blackstrap said:

Consider: Joseph Smith JR. watching from the premortal spirit world.

                  Joseph of Egypt watching from the post mortal Spirit world. 

                   Joseph the carpenter father watching from a hill or keeping Joseph of Egypt company. 

Let's not forget Joseph Smith Sr. and Nephi's brother Joseph and the tomb owner Joseph and all the Josès elsewhere in the world. 😁

 So the question is : would even the deceased Josephs or any possible future Josephs have lost their lives by Roman violence, even if they were already deceased had they been at the crucifixion?

OMGosh... 

Them Romans killing people already dead, and those not born yet?

MAN Zeus must have been a powerful dude to pull that off...

Toodlie doo! 🤯

Edited December 14, 2023 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

Everyone says they were at the crucifixion. It is a thing.

Even Mick Jagger!

"Please allow me to introduce myself
I'm a man of wealth and taste
I've been around for a long, long years
Stole million man's soul an faith

And I was 'round when Jesus Christ
Had his moment of doubt and pain
Made damn sure that Pilate
Washed his hands and sealed his fate

Pleased to meet you
Hope you guess my name
But what's puzzling you
Is the nature of my game"

 

-  "Sympathy For The Devil", Rolling Stones.

Edited December 14, 2023 by mfbukowski

[nuclearfuels]

St. Joseph in Apocrypha

 

Oblates of St. Joseph

https://osjusa.org › st-joseph › apocrypha

 

 

 

Strong and alert until the age of 111, he confesses his sinfulness on his deathbed and is consoled by Jesus and Mary. Jesus beckons the archangels Michael and ...

 

 

Apocrypha: Joseph the Carpenter

 

Interfaith.org

https://www.interfaith.org › christianity › apocrypha-j...

 

 

 

It happened one day, when the Saviour, our Master, God, and Saviour Jesus Christ, was sitting along with His disciples, and they were all assembled on the Mount ...

 

 

The Testament of Joseph: Chapter I

 

Sacred-Texts

https://sacred-texts.com › bib › fbe › fbe292

 

 

 

CHAP. I. Joseph, the eleventh son of Jacob and Rachel, the beautiful and beloved. His struggle against the Egyptian temptress. THE ...

[webbles]

17 minutes ago, nuclearfuels said:

St. Joseph in Apocrypha

 

Oblates of St. Joseph

https://osjusa.org › st-joseph › apocrypha

 

 

 

Strong and alert until the age of 111, he confesses his sinfulness on his deathbed and is consoled by Jesus and Mary. Jesus beckons the archangels Michael and ...

 

 

Apocrypha: Joseph the Carpenter

 

Interfaith.org

https://www.interfaith.org › christianity › apocrypha-j...

 

 

 

It happened one day, when the Saviour, our Master, God, and Saviour Jesus Christ, was sitting along with His disciples, and they were all assembled on the Mount ...

 

The first link is just summarizing the second link.  In the apocrypha, t has Joseph's ages at various points in his life in verse 14.

Quote

He lived forty years unmarried; thereafter his wife remained under his care forty-nine years, and then died. And a year after her death, my mother, the blessed Mary, was entrusted to him by the priests, that he should keep her until the time of her marriage. She spent two years in his house; and in the third year of her stay with Joseph, in the fifteenth year of her age, she brought me forth on earth by a mystery which no creature can penetrate or understand, except myself, and my Father and the Holy Spirit, constituting one essence with myself.

It has him at age 90 when he met Mary.  Mary gave birth to Christ when he was 93.  He died when he was 111 so Christ would have been 18 at Joseph's death.

19 minutes ago, nuclearfuels said:

The Testament of Joseph: Chapter I

 

Sacred-Texts

https://sacred-texts.com › bib › fbe › fbe292

 

 

 

CHAP. I. Joseph, the eleventh son of Jacob and Rachel, the beautiful and beloved. His struggle against the Egyptian temptress. THE ...

This is about Joseph in Egypt.  I don't see anything in here that talks about Christ.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

On 12/14/2023 at 11:43 AM, nuclearfuels said:

Or did the Jews' violence - or insistence on the Roman use of violence, their favorite SOP - such that Joseph also would have lost his life if he had been there? 

 

I hope his Father did not have to see what his son endured. 

[InCognitus]

Joseph (of Arimathea) was definitely there.  (Matt 27:57, Mark 15:43, Luke 23:51, John 19:38)

[nuclearfuels]

On 12/14/2023 at 3:30 PM, Pyreaux said:

The tradition in Catholicism is Joseph was older, about 40 when he wed Mary and had died by the time Jesus was 30. He's nowhere after losing Jesus in the temple, and we don't suppose his death would be premature with Jesus around.

THank you @Pyreaux. Do you and @MiserereNobis concur with the theory that Joseph was a widower?

Modern positions on the question of the relationship between Joseph and the Virgin Mary vary. The Eastern Orthodox Church, which names Joseph's first wife as Salome, holds that Joseph was a widower and betrothed to Mary, and that references to Jesus' "brothers" were children of Joseph from a previous marriage.

 

Saint Joseph - Wikipedia

[MiserereNobis]

4 minutes ago, nuclearfuels said:

THank you @Pyreaux. Do you and @MiserereNobis concur with the theory that Joseph was a widower?

Modern positions on the question of the relationship between Joseph and the Virgin Mary vary. The Eastern Orthodox Church, which names Joseph's first wife as Salome, holds that Joseph was a widower and betrothed to Mary, and that references to Jesus' "brothers" were children of Joseph from a previous marriage.

 

Saint Joseph - Wikipedia

The idea that Joseph was a widower is an apocryphal story. You can believe it or not believe it. I personally don't care one way or another.

I didn't know that the Eastern Orthodox Church held it to be true (if wikipedia is to be trusted here).

[Calm]

44 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

The idea that Joseph was a widower is an apocryphal story. You can believe it or not believe it. I personally don't care one way or another.

I didn't know that the Eastern Orthodox Church held it to be true (if wikipedia is to be trusted here).

If Joseph was not a widower, who are the brothers of Jesus in your view?  Relatives (I know some family terms can stand for more than one type of relationship?

Edited December 18, 2023 by Calm

[MiserereNobis]

39 minutes ago, Calm said:

If Joseph was not a widower, who are the brothers of Jesus in your view?  Relatives (I know some family terms can stand for more than one type of relationship?

Yes, relatives. Cousins perhaps? In the play Cyrano de Bergerac (1897) Cyrano tells Christian upon their first meeting this:

Quote

 

CYRANO:
Come, embrace! I am her brother.

CHRISTIAN:
Whose brother?

CYRANO:
Hers i’ faith! Roxane’s!

CHRISTIAN (rushing up to him):
O heavens!
Her brother. . .?

CYRANO:
Cousin—brother!. . .the same thing!

 

My only belief concerning this is that the Blessed Virgin Mary was a perpetual virgin. I don't have a strong opinion on how it all worked out with the familial relationships. (gosh, I've been rather noncommittal in my posts the past couple of days, ha. It's all a mystery!)

[mfbukowski]

On 12/17/2023 at 4:33 PM, MiserereNobis said:

The idea that Joseph was a widower is an apocryphal story. You can believe it or not believe it. I personally don't care one way or another.

I didn't know that the Eastern Orthodox Church held it to be true (if wikipedia is to be trusted here).

Also the idea that he was an old man, I think, was created to enhance the notion that Mary was a perpetual virgin, as if even marital sex is somehow wrong, perhaps justifying an unmarried clergy.  IMO!

[Stargazer]

On 12/18/2023 at 2:13 AM, MiserereNobis said:

Yes, relatives. Cousins perhaps? In the play Cyrano de Bergerac (1897) Cyrano tells Christian upon their first meeting this:

My only belief concerning this is that the Blessed Virgin Mary was a perpetual virgin. I don't have a strong opinion on how it all worked out with the familial relationships. (gosh, I've been rather noncommittal in my posts the past couple of days, ha. It's all a mystery!)

I have a lot of respect for the Catholic Church, but this notion that virginity, per se, is so noble and wonderful just falls flat for me. The first commandment given to man was to multiply and replenish the earth. To me, procreation for a woman is the most noble thing she can do -- to sacrifice herself to serve the aims of God by providing bodies for His children to occupy. And that cannot be done as a virgin.

But who am I to complain.

[Calm]

I don’t see it intended as an idolization in general of virginity/celibacy, but more of the dedication/consecration to the Creator that goes with it…but I may be wrong.  Hopefully Catholic posters will add their views.

The virginity of Mary served a purpose.  Because of her Immaculate Conception, she was free from original sin.  Her vow of virginity may have kept her innocent and pure.  Not sure on that.

https://www.newadvent.org/summa/3152.htm

[Calm]

20 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

The first commandment given to man was to multiply and replenish the earth.

Quote

Reply to Objection 1. A precept implies a duty, as stated above (II-II:122:1). Now there are two kinds of duty. There is the duty that has to be fulfilled by one person; and a duty of this kind cannot be set aside without sin. The other duty has to be fulfilled by the multitude, and the fulfilment of this kind of duty is not binding on each one of the multitude. For the multitude has many obligations which cannot be discharged by the individual; but are fulfilled by one person doing this, and another doing that. Accordingly the precept of natural law which binds manto eat must needs be fulfilled by each individual, otherwise the individual cannot be sustained. On the other hand, the precept of procreation regards the whole multitude of men, which needs not only to multiply in body, but also to advance spiritually. Wherefore sufficient provision is made for the human multitude, if some betake themselves to carnal procreation, while others abstaining from this betake themselves to the contemplation of Divine things, for the beauty and welfare of the whole human race. Thus too in an army, some take sentry duty, others are standard-bearers, and others fight with the sword: yet all these things are necessary for the multitude, although they cannot be done by one person.

https://www.newadvent.org/summa/3152.htm

[Stargazer]

25 minutes ago, Calm said:

https://www.newadvent.org/summa/3152.htm

That's a pretty neat sidestep! The philosophies of men take the foremost! 😃

But who says who must do it, and who is excused? 

It's as if God said to Adam and Eve: "Be fruitful and multiply -- but only if you feel called to it."

My answer to this nice little sidestep is "What part of the word commandment implies there's an exception?" And these were commandments, not recommendations. And who is arguing that not everyone is called to do it? Just some guy with a degree in Theology from the University of Eisegesis.

The only excuse for not obeying a positive commandment (i.e. one that requires initiation) is inability. I suppose that's my opinion, but I don't find that bringing sentry duty into the equation strengthens the argument against universal procreation. I was a soldier once (and young), and by golly, every soldier who ever lived stood sentry duty at least once during his career. Everyone with the ability to do it, CAN do it. And therefore SHOULD do it. So what if sentry duty isn't performed by everyone at once? Besides that, sentry duty isn't procreation. Talk about red herrings.

[Calm]

8 hours ago, Stargazer said:

The only excuse for not obeying a positive commandment (i.e. one that requires initiation) is inability.

Apostles have spoken of there being a time and season for commandments, that sometimes one commandment may prevent the fulfilling of another (such as young mothers don’t need to feel guilty about neglecting family history or students food storage), so I think there are more reasons to put some commandments on hold than inability.

Quote

It's as if God said to Adam and Eve: "Be fruitful and multiply -- but only if you feel called to it."

The reasoning to me sounded more like ‘be fruitful and multiply unless I call you to something else’.

Edited December 20, 2023 by Calm