MormonStories in Financial Trouble

[Nofear]

1 hour ago, Raingirl said:

If I didn’t believe he was exploiting vulnerable people, I wouldn’t have said so. Duh. 
 

I’m not in this thread to discuss tithing or any of the church’s actions.  Or anyone’s actions other than Dehlin. What another person or entity does or doesn’t do has no bearing on the actions of Dehlin that I’m referring to. Just because someone else does something questionable, does not make Dehlin’s actions okay.  

If you cannot understand how preying on vulnerable people is a bad thing, then there is nothing more I can say to you. 

Indeed, besides the spiritual, the mental, social, and health benefits most members experience (by just about every social metric the Church does a great job) are some of the benefits of being an active tithe paying member. Additionally it is also a financial safety net (as JAHS nicely points out). Dehlin is none of those. It is a place for those who feel disenfranchised by the Church to feel… justified. Buh for some that is worth the lucre they donate to him.

[california boy]

4 hours ago, Raingirl said:

If I didn’t believe he was exploiting vulnerable people, I wouldn’t have said so. Duh. 
 

I’m not in this thread to discuss tithing or any of the church’s actions.  Or anyone’s actions other than Dehlin. What another person or entity does or doesn’t do has no bearing on the actions of Dehlin that I’m referring to. Just because someone else does something questionable, does not make Dehlin’s actions okay.  

If you cannot understand how preying on vulnerable people is a bad thing, then there is nothing more I can say to you. 

Neither am I going to defend what Delhin is doing.  And I understand why you feel that way.  Because you and others that have commented support what the Church is doing and feel like it adds value in your lives.  People who donate to Delhin obviously believe his podcast is of value to them, which is why they donate as well.  Many of them are grateful for the information he has provided to them exposing information that in some cases the Church actively hid from them.  They feel betrayed by what the Church did.  It is that feeling of betrayal that has led them to be vulnerable.  The Church is not an innocent bystander.

You belong to an institution that a lot of people in this world would make the same accusations of preying on the vulnerable by pressuring them to give 10% of their income to an institution that has literally over 100 billion dollars sitting in a stock portfolio.  An institution that tells them to pay the church first, even before buying food for their families.  Growing up, the Church preached to its members that the Church that they had donated so much too was the last resource they should call upon if they needed help.  Dismissing those sacrifices they have made by stating that some have received help from the Church as not playing a part in making them vulnerable is dismissing the things that put them in that position.  Being vulnerable does not just come from a lack of financial resources.  I personally was extremely vulnerable while growing up with men like Spencer W. Kimball telling me I was an abomination simply because I was gay.  How do you think that made me feel when despite false promised by Church leaders that if I only got married I would no longer be gay?  You can't even imagine the impact and feeling of betrayal that has caused me in my own personal life.  If there was someone throwing out a lifeline, telling me it was ok to be gay.  That I was not an abomination.  That I could have a happy and healthy life, I would have happily donated to their cause.

You and others that have commented seem to have NO problem with anything the Church has done to create that vulnerability that doesn't go away with a box of food.  Those donating to Delhin feel like your Church played a direct part in their loss of faith.  Many former members of the Church. have huge problems with what the Church has done and the role it played in causing them to loose their faith.  So don't play the innocent, we didn't do anything to cause those people to loose their faith.  

I am just saying your statement Is a big BEAM in your eye while judging someone else's spec.  One you find despicable, the other you find praiseworthy.  NOT everyone sees things the same as you.  As you  judge so harshly what Delins is doing, you might want to take a step back and consider those donating to Delhin have a very different view on who is exploiting the vulnerable.

[Teancum]

On 12/13/2023 at 11:27 AM, Calm said:

Yes, I do from what I have heard from spouses and parents and even children as well as those who saw themselves as vulnerable. And the issue was for most of them he took away their faith and hope (and messed up relationships by doing so) and gave them nothing to replace it. 

Sorry. I don't buy it.  Dehlin does not force anyone  to support his podcast or listen. People find it, listen, find it useful, or not.  HE took away their faith?  How does someone take away someone else's faith. John may be more strident now then in times past.  But he is not taking advantage of anyone.  He offers material.  Individuals can accept or reject it. 

 

On 12/13/2023 at 11:27 AM, Calm said:

The Church provides support, including if necessary financial support, for those who need it in the community to help balance the sacrifice if tithing for the poor.  They also help with training and finding of jobs, education and other services that can lead to better financial stability for families. 

Yes.  But @california boymade the point that regardless of the above tithing is required to get to the place to get the ordinances needed for the highest heaven.  Church doctrine and commandments can be a heavy burden for many as far as perfectionism goes. Time requirements from members are high.  For a devote Latter day Saint the Church is the center of everything and all activity.  And church assistance is a crap shoot based on leadership roulette.  My son in law's parents who live in Brazil are very poor.  They pay their meager tithing no matter what. Yet often they have been refused FO assistance. So the Church does not always provide support. 

 

[Teancum]

On 12/13/2023 at 2:35 PM, Raingirl said:

If I didn’t believe he was exploiting vulnerable people, I wouldn’t have said so. Duh. 
 

I’m not in this thread to discuss tithing or any of the church’s actions.  Or anyone’s actions other than Dehlin. What another person or entity does or doesn’t do has no bearing on the actions of Dehlin that I’m referring to. Just because someone else does something questionable, does not make Dehlin’s actions okay.  

If you cannot understand how preying on vulnerable people is a bad thing, then there is nothing more I can say to you. 

Then how does Dehlin prey on "vulnerable" people?  How can he force and make anyone donate to his NFP?  How can he make anyone listen to his podcasts? I can tell you this much.  In 2007 while I was still a bishop and found my faith in the church falling apart I felt desperately alone.  I am not sure how I ran across Mormon Stories but I did and it helped me. I even reached out to Dehlin and talked to him.  Not once did he encourage me to leave the church or do anything drastic.  He was there then and at least someone I could talk to.  I certainly appreciate the man for that.

[Teancum]

On 12/13/2023 at 4:00 PM, Nofear said:

Dehlin is none of those. It is a place for those who feel disenfranchised by the Church to feel… justified. Buh for some that is worth the lucre they donate to him.

Since you are comparing Dehlin to the church how about we do a point by point comparison and see who really exploits and preys on vulnerable people. 

Is Mormon Stories a place for those who have concluded the church is false and not what the claim a place to feel justified? I don't think so. But I know members certainly need to build that paradigm because legitimate reason for rejecting Mormonism can cause the still believer's testimony to be shaken.  I donate to Mormon Stories and well as Bill Reel's and Corbin RFM (Don't recall last name) Mormonism Live and Radio Free Mormon because I find some (not all) of the content useful and entertaining at times.  Honestly your comment above  is ludicrous and offensive.  Mormonism has so many holes in it that are large enough to drive a semi  through that there is no need to listen to other's criticism of it to feel justified in abandoning it.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Teancum said:

Sorry. I don't buy it.  Dehlin does not force anyone  to support his podcast or listen. People find it, listen, find it useful, or not.  HE took away their faith?  How does someone take away someone else's faith. John may be more strident now then in times past.  But he is not taking advantage of anyone.  He offers material.  Individuals can accept or reject it. 

I see it as similar to someone choosing to build a bar next to a rehab place, though my view of him is more influenced by his less public actions, how he operates in his personal relationships from what I have heard and seen online (how he treats volunteers and others), much that gets deleted by him.

Edited December 15, 2023 by Calm

[Tacenda]

2 hours ago, Teancum said:

Since you are comparing Dehlin to the church how about we do a point by point comparison and see who really exploits and preys on vulnerable people. 

Is Mormon Stories a place for those who have concluded the church is false and not what the claim a place to feel justified? I don't think so. But I know members certainly need to build that paradigm because legitimate reason for rejecting Mormonism can cause the still believer's testimony to be shaken.  I donate to Mormon Stories and well as Bill Reel's and Corbin RFM (Don't recall last name) Mormonism Live and Radio Free Mormon because I find some (not all) of the content useful and entertaining at times.  Honestly your comment above  is ludicrous and offensive.  Mormonism has so many holes in it that are large enough to drive a semi  through that there is no need to listen to other's criticism of it to feel justified in abandoning it.

And I heard a statistic that approximately 20 percent of all the members are even active. I will need to find the link. So maybe 3.5 million.

[Nofear]

15 hours ago, Teancum said:

Honestly your comment above  is ludicrous and offensive.

I suppose my hypothesis (to feel justified) about why people listen to the likes of Dehlin could be in error (or a minor factor). I don't have any data to support that assertion.
As for the other stuff, statistics and facts are frequently found to be offensive when they contradict one's worldview. /shrug

[bluebell]

12 hours ago, Tacenda said:

And I heard a statistic that approximately 20 percent of all the members are even active. I will need to find the link. So maybe 3.5 million.

I think it’s been reported at 30%. Not sure how long ago that was though or were the information came from.

[Diamondhands69]

14 hours ago, Tacenda said:

And I heard a statistic that approximately 20 percent of all the members are even active. I will need to find the link. So maybe 3.5 million.

20% average may be about right. Anecdotally,  in the morridor and before Covid we had roughly 250-300 people in attendance each week in sacrament meeting. Now??? 
 

<100. I don’t know how many people are assigned to our ward but it should be the same as before Covid since the boundaries have not changed.
 

Our ward boundary is just half of this subdivision. My street alone has at least 15 member households on it. Only half of them show up and I see them nearly every day. People are doing a sloooow fade. 
 

 

[Diamondhands69]

3 hours ago, Diamondhands69 said:

Duplicate

Edited December 15, 2023 by Diamondhands69

[InCognitus]

4 hours ago, bluebell said:

I think it’s been reported at 30%. Not sure how long ago that was though or were the information came from.

I think it may be higher than that.  I've heard that average sacrament meeting attendance is about 40 to 45%.

Demographics can change over time in a ward boundary area as well.  In my last ward we had a lot of members that moved to other parts of the city where housing was cheaper and there were other younger families.  That caused our ward membership to change in ways that had nothing to do with the person's activity in the church.

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, InCognitus said:

I think it may be higher than that.  I've heard that average sacrament meeting attendance is about 40 to 45%.

Demographics can change over time in a ward boundary area as well.  In my last ward we had a lot of members that moved to other parts of the city where housing was cheaper and there were other younger families.  That caused our ward membership to change in ways that had nothing to do with the person's activity in the church.

Agreed.  Before our ward was split we had a very young ward and attendence was actually around 60%.  After it split and became a lot smaller and a lot older, it's probably down to around 35%-40% now.  

[rodheadlee]

Just because you don't attend doesn't mean you're inactive. Many of us old folks can't get out of bed and get to church in time. We still read scripture, pray and pay tithes.

[bluebell]

3 minutes ago, rodheadlee said:

Just because you don't attend doesn't mean you're inactive. Many of us old folks can't get out of bed and get to church in time. We still read scripture, pray and pay tithes.

I think it’s very valid for the church to keep people on their rolls even if they aren’t attending regularly.  It bugs the critics but oh well. 

[Teancum]

17 hours ago, rodheadlee said:

Just because you don't attend doesn't mean you're inactive. Many of us old folks can't get out of bed and get to church in time. We still read scripture, pray and pay tithes.

I think such situations are not the norm for inactivity.

[Tacenda]

17 hours ago, rodheadlee said:

Just because you don't attend doesn't mean you're inactive. Many of us old folks can't get out of bed and get to church in time. We still read scripture, pray and pay tithes.

That's so true, so inactive isn't the would that should be used. Maybe PIMO that some use on reddit, it's physically in mentally out. So although they attend they don't believe. Naw, that doesn't work. Hmmm.

[Stargazer]

On 12/15/2023 at 10:40 PM, rodheadlee said:

Just because you don't attend doesn't mean you're inactive. Many of us old folks can't get out of bed and get to church in time. We still read scripture, pray and pay tithes.

I keep attendance for our elders quorum, and I count as attending a few of our brethren who cannot attend because they are physically unable. This is because I know them, and they would if they could. We just had the funeral of one of them on Friday. He hadn't been able to attend church (or even leave his apartment) for the last four or five years, but still had a valid temple recommend, and along with him is another brother who is creeping slowly up to the same destination, who seriously wants to come to church, but can't. So I mark him as attending, and I think he attends via Zoom, too. We bring the sacrament to a few of our brothers and sisters at least once a month. 

Our ward used to have a lot more attending sacrament meeting, but the demographics have changed and we have a large proportion of elderly now (which includes me, I guess, but I'm not not seriously elderly yet).

[carbon dioxide]

On 12/16/2023 at 7:43 AM, Teancum said:

I think such situations are not the norm for inactivity.

Who knows.  I guess I am technically inactive as I work in a hospital so I can't go to church every other weekend.  Inactivity does not mean lack of belief or testimony.

[Calm]

3 hours ago, carbon dioxide said:

Who knows.  I guess I am technically inactive as I work in a hospital so I can't go to church every other weekend.  Inactivity does not mean lack of belief or testimony.

I believe if you attend once every three months you are not considered inactive or less active, not sure what the official term is now.

[Tacenda]

20 minutes ago, Calm said:

I believe if you attend once every three months you are not considered inactive or less active, not sure what the official term is now.

I think I might try that, it's been awhile, but I'm needing something and going to church might help. 

[bluebell]

21 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I think I might try that, it's been awhile, but I'm needing something and going to church might help. 

If you aren't comfortable going to your own ward right now come with me to mine.   

[Tacenda]

47 minutes ago, bluebell said:

If you aren't comfortable going to your own ward right now come with me to mine.   

That's so kind of you bluebell! My husband has been wanting to go to church but was afraid to tell me, until I mentioned I wanted to go. He's been praying and even had his brothers give him a blessing for some health problems dealing with his receding gums and recently had one whole side done with gum grafts and has stomach pain. We'll see how it goes, we could probably go to our friends' ward that is in our stake if it doesn't work at our ward. But thank you for the offer! ❤️ 

[InCognitus]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

I think I might try that, it's been awhile, but I'm needing something and going to church might help. 

Next Sunday is the one hour Christmas sacrament meeting (no second hour meeting), so it's short and relevant to the holiday.  You should at least to go to that, and then maybe again at Easter.  (Except then someone might call you a Chreaster - so maybe you could attend on some other Sunday in addition to Easter ). 

[Tacenda]

1 minute ago, InCognitus said:

Next Sunday is the one hour Christmas sacrament meeting (no second hour meeting), so it's short and relevant to the holiday.  You should at least to go to that, and then maybe again at Easter.  (Except then someone might call you a Chreaster - so maybe you could attend on some other Sunday in addition to Easter ). 

That was my plan, haha. It wouldn't look too out of the normal, lol.  Since a lot of people come out of the woodwork for Christmas.