MormonStories in Financial Trouble

[Calm]

54 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Well said, thanks. I had believed that "Bloggernacle" would be the conservatives, creating for themselves a connection with the choir, "singing" out boldly the figurative "hymns" of the one true church, as they saw them.

 

According to wiki, it did start out as Bloggernacle Choir.  Interesting entry…

The original blog coming up with the name goes back to 2004.  Third comment down won the day…

http://archive.timesandseasons.org/2004/03/the-nameless-mormon-blogosphere/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormon_blogosphere

Quote

 In a blog post titled "The Nameless Mormon Blogosphere",[6] Wenger sought to remedy this situation and asked for suggestions for a name. Christopher Bradford posting under the name "Grasshopper" suggested "Bloggernacle Choir", the shortened version of which gained wide approval. "Bloggernacle" is a term that has been used commonly by LDS bloggers.

 

Edited December 7, 2023 by Calm

[Craig Speechly]

On 11/28/2023 at 5:12 PM, Tacenda said:

B is maybe why people don't donate, he asks so often for donations, it's a turn off. But I guess it's a full time job for a few of them, gotta pay the bills. 

Like the LDS church, which if you’ve forgotten requires 10% of one’s income to be in good standing, MS also relies on donations. I believe Dehlin only receives a small stipend.  The only difference is MS donations are completely voluntary and come with no strings attached. 

[Calm]

32 minutes ago, Craig Speechly said:

believe Dehlin only receives a small stipend.

If 236,000 in 2019 is a small stipend in your eyes, then yes, he receives only a small stipend.  Since it is almost twice what my husband makes and we do quite well, I don’t see it as a small stipend. 

[Teancum]

59 minutes ago, Calm said:

If 236,000 in 2019 is a small stipend in your eyes, then yes, he receives only a small stipend.  Since it is almost twice what my husband makes and we do quite well, I don’t see it as a small stipend. 

I agree.  It is a pretty nice salary John takes from Mormons Stories.  No way would  I call is it a small stipend.

[juliann]

On 12/9/2023 at 3:52 PM, Calm said:

If 236,000 in 2019 is a small stipend in your eyes, then yes, he receives only a small stipend.  Since it is almost twice what my husband makes and we do quite well, I don’t see it as a small stipend. 

Other discussions have analyzed that he gets more than that through other money stream categories. “ Expenses” type stuff. 

[Craig Speechly]

On 12/9/2023 at 2:52 PM, Calm said:

If 236,000 in 2019 is a small stipend in your eyes, then yes, he receives only a small stipend.  Since it is almost twice what my husband makes and we do quite well, I don’t see it as a small stipend. 

It's about the same stipend earned by LDS General Authorities minus the perks

[Craig Speechly]

On 12/9/2023 at 3:52 PM, Teancum said:

I agree.  It is a pretty nice salary John takes from Mormons Stories.  No way would  I call is it a small stipend.

President Hinckley referred to the stipend General Authorities earn as a "modest stipend".  Since both Dehlin and LDS GA's earn about the same annual stipend, I'm deferring to President Hinckley's wisdom and choice of words.

Edited December 12, 2023 by Craig Speechly

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, Craig Speechly said:

It's about the same stipend earned by LDS General Authorities minus the perks

What perks? 

And do we know what their stipend is?  Last I heard it was around $120,000 but that was a while ago?  Of course, it was a while ago when we we learned about John's "small stipend" so maybe they are comparable.

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, Craig Speechly said:

President Hinckley referred to the stipend General Authorities earn as a "modest stipend".  Since both Dehlin and LDS GA's earn about the same annual stipend, I'm deferring to President Hinckley's wisdom and choice of words.

Can you provide a reference for what the GA are provided?

[Craig Speechly]

25 minutes ago, bluebell said:

What perks? 

And do we know what their stipend is?  Last I heard it was around $120,000 but that was a while ago?  Of course, it was a while ago when we we learned about John's "small stipend" so maybe they are comparable.

Well...we have to rely on outside sources since the church chooses not to divulge this information but...here is a conservative estimate with inflation taken into account.The extra perks would be free BYU tuition for all children, Health Insurance, Car allowance, Housing allowance, Retirement contribution for non life time GA's to name just a few of the perks

https://widowsmitereport.wordpress.com/comp/

[Craig Speechly]

29 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Can you provide a reference for what the GA are provided?

And please don't get me wrong, I believe that these men should be paid and are greatly underpaid. But to malign Dehlin for making a living off of the same church as LDS GA's seems a bit disingenuous

[bluebell]

16 minutes ago, Craig Speechly said:

Well...we have to rely on outside sources since the church chooses not to divulge this information but...here is a conservative estimate with inflation taken into account.The extra perks would be free BYU tuition for all children, Health Insurance, Car allowance, Housing allowance, Retirement contribution for non life time GA's to name just a few of the perks

https://widowsmitereport.wordpress.com/comp/

So the Widow's mite is guessing that the GA's make $178,000 plus health benefits on their stipend.  But in 2019 (when the GAs would have been making less than what's being estimated they will make in 2024, Dehlin made $236,000.  I think in 2019 (or around there) they were estimating that GAs were making $120,000 a year.  I don't know that all GAs get the same perks either.  I don't believe they get a housing allowance or car allowance, but maybe I'm wrong.

Going back to the money though, that's $158,000 less than Dehlin, right?  $150,000 difference seems like a big difference.  That's like saying that someone who makes $50,000 and someone who makes $178,000 are basically making the same amount.  

That doesn't seem very comparable though.

 

[Craig Speechly]

2 hours ago, bluebell said:

So the Widow's mite is guessing that the GA's make $178,000 plus health benefits on their stipend.  But in 2019 (when the GAs would have been making less than what's being estimated they will make in 2024, Dehlin made $236,000.  I think in 2019 (or around there) they were estimating that GAs were making $120,000 a year.  I don't know that all GAs get the same perks either.  I don't believe they get a housing allowance or car allowance, but maybe I'm wrong.

Going back to the money though, that's $158,000 less than Dehlin, right?  $150,000 difference seems like a big difference.  That's like saying that someone who makes $50,000 and someone who makes $178,000 are basically making the same amount.  

That doesn't seem very comparable though.

 

 I have no idea what Dehlin earns per year nor do I know what an LDS GA is paid. My point is that both deserve to be paid and earn an income from their respective full time jobs. Why is anyone squabbling over how much anyone earns?  Dehlin is subject to market risk and donor’s goodwill if his followers like what he produces he makes money, if they don’t he’ll have to find something else to do. Fortunately today, those same forces do not concern the church nor its paid clergy. 
 

PS:  I still hold to the view that both Dehlin and LDS GA’s are similarly compensated once church perks are factored in. 

Edited December 13, 2023 by Craig Speechly

[Calm]

54 minutes ago, Craig Speechly said:

I have no idea what Dehlin earns per year nor do I know what an LDS GA is paid.

Then why make the statement as if you do have an idea?

Quote

It's about the same stipend earned by LDS General Authorities minus the perks

Quote

 

Why is anyone squabbling over how much anyone earns? 

I suspect some don’t like that Dehlin is likely quite comfortable financially (at least if he is prudent and his family don’t have any extraordinary needs) for his work that actively disrupts and even destroys families in their view.

And some probably feel the same way about church leaders.

Edited December 13, 2023 by Calm

[JAHS]

4 hours ago, Craig Speechly said:

And please don't get me wrong, I believe that these men should be paid and are greatly underpaid. But to malign Dehlin for making a living off of the same church as LDS GA's seems a bit disingenuous

The GAs are not exactly "making a living"; they have dedicated their lives to the church whether they accept the stipend or not. Dehlin, an excommunicated member, makes a living presenting things that tends to put the church in a bad light; not build it up.  This might sound a bit judgmental but to quote a scripture.
"Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre’s sake."(Titus 1:11)

[Raingirl]

4 hours ago, Calm said:

Then why make the statement as if you do have an idea?

I suspect some don’t like that Dehlin is likely quite comfortable financially (at least if he is prudent and his family don’t have any extraordinary needs) for his work that actively disrupts and even destroys families in their view.

And some probably feel the same way about church leaders.

He’s making money exploiting vulnerable people. I find that despicable.  

[Calm]

2 hours ago, Raingirl said:

He’s making money exploiting vulnerable people. I find that despicable.  

I definitely lean that way. 

[Teancum]

7 hours ago, JAHS said:

The GAs are not exactly "making a living";

Yes they do. They are paid.  They use what they are paid towards their living expenses. 

 

7 hours ago, JAHS said:

 

they have dedicated their lives to the church

So? What does this matter when discussing what they make? 

 

7 hours ago, JAHS said:

 

whether they accept the stipend or not.

My guess is most accept their salary.

 

7 hours ago, JAHS said:

 

Dehlin, an excommunicated member, makes a living presenting things that tends to put the church in a bad light; not build it up. 

So what?  People make a living doing all sorts of things.  What you call putting the church in bad light others view as honesty, transparency and informative.  

Everyone who puts themselves out in the public sphere will have critics and fans.  I have no doubt I could find you people who are grateful to the work Dehlin does.

7 hours ago, JAHS said:

 

This might sound a bit judgmental but to quote a scripture.
"Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre’s sake."(Titus 1:11)

A bit?

[Teancum]

5 hours ago, Raingirl said:

He’s making money exploiting vulnerable people. I find that despicable.  

Vulnerable?    How about what the church does to exploit vulnerable people? He offers something people find useful. The people who listen to his podcasts and/or donate $ are adults.  They can choose.  At a minimum. Dehlin does not do what he does claiming the endorsement of God unlike those who represent the "Only True and Living Church."

Edited December 13, 2023 by Teancum

[Tacenda]

7 hours ago, Raingirl said:

He’s making money exploiting vulnerable people. I find that despicable.  

Just like I wish the church would spend more of it's money on charity, I hope John Dehlin does the same. I know they offered certain events, forgot the name. I attended one a while back, but it only cost 25.00, and free if you couldn't come up with that. So I guess that's good. 

[california boy]

8 hours ago, Raingirl said:

He’s making money exploiting vulnerable people. I find that despicable.  

I don't really get involved in these arguments about who is making more money.  People have free will to donate to what organizations they want to and which ones they choose to join.  It is really none of my concern.  But this statement really got to me.  You think Dehlin is exploiting vulnerable people?  Seriously?  While the Church has no problem requiring 10% of the income to stay worthy of membership into their church from every member, including the very very poor using threats of their own personal salvation if they don't obey what they are selling as a direct commandment from God????

Please. That was a very poor point of criticism.  If you find Dehlins totally voluntary contributions with no threats of personal salvation as being despicable, what do you call the explotation of vulnerable church members by your Church?  Love to hear how you defend that.

[Calm]

17 minutes ago, california boy said:

You think Dehlin is exploiting vulnerable people?

Yes, I do from what I have heard from spouses and parents and even children as well as those who saw themselves as vulnerable. And the issue was for most of them he took away their faith and hope (and messed up relationships by doing so) and gave them nothing to replace it. 

The Church provides support, including if necessary financial support, for those who need it in the community to help balance the sacrifice if tithing for the poor.  They also help with training and finding of jobs, education and other services that can lead to better financial stability for families. 

[Tacenda]

31 minutes ago, california boy said:

I don't really get involved in these arguments about who is making more money.  People have free will to donate to what organizations they want to and which ones they choose to join.  It is really none of my concern.  But this statement really got to me.  You think Dehlin is exploiting vulnerable people?  Seriously?  While the Church has no problem requiring 10% of the income to stay worthy of membership into their church from every member, including the very very poor using threats of their own personal salvation if they don't obey what they are selling as a direct commandment from God????

Please. That was a very poor point of criticism.  If you find Dehlins totally voluntary contributions with no threats of personal salvation as being despicable, what do you call the explotation of vulnerable church members by your Church?  Love to hear how you defend that.

And at one time 10% wasn't required to go to the temple, along with living the WoW. Seems to be more policy than from God.

[Raingirl]

3 hours ago, california boy said:

I don't really get involved in these arguments about who is making more money.  People have free will to donate to what organizations they want to and which ones they choose to join.  It is really none of my concern.  But this statement really got to me.  You think Dehlin is exploiting vulnerable people?  Seriously?  While the Church has no problem requiring 10% of the income to stay worthy of membership into their church from every member, including the very very poor using threats of their own personal salvation if they don't obey what they are selling as a direct commandment from God????

Please. That was a very poor point of criticism.  If you find Dehlins totally voluntary contributions with no threats of personal salvation as being despicable, what do you call the explotation of vulnerable church members by your Church?  Love to hear how you defend that.

If I didn’t believe he was exploiting vulnerable people, I wouldn’t have said so. Duh. 
 

I’m not in this thread to discuss tithing or any of the church’s actions.  Or anyone’s actions other than Dehlin. What another person or entity does or doesn’t do has no bearing on the actions of Dehlin that I’m referring to. Just because someone else does something questionable, does not make Dehlin’s actions okay.  

If you cannot understand how preying on vulnerable people is a bad thing, then there is nothing more I can say to you. 

[JAHS]

3 hours ago, california boy said:

I don't really get involved in these arguments about who is making more money.  People have free will to donate to what organizations they want to and which ones they choose to join.  It is really none of my concern.  But this statement really got to me.  You think Dehlin is exploiting vulnerable people?  Seriously?  While the Church has no problem requiring 10% of the income to stay worthy of membership into their church from every member, including the very very poor using threats of their own personal salvation if they don't obey what they are selling as a direct commandment from God????

Please. That was a very poor point of criticism.  If you find Dehlins totally voluntary contributions with no threats of personal salvation as being despicable, what do you call the explotation of vulnerable church members by your Church?  Love to hear how you defend that.

If a member has the right attitude about tithing, it is not the church that is asking for tithes it is God himself asking for it. And yes it is a direct commandment from God; not being sold as such.  When members have the right attitude about it they give it freely and faithfully without hesitation knowing that, if necessary, the church will help them if they are in financial trouble. I have been a recipient of that help on a few occasions. I have written hundreds of checks as a financial clerk for such members.