Church sued again over how it uses tithing contributions from members

[SeekingUnderstanding]

13 hours ago, Calm said:

 

Definitely not seeing better. Extrapolating from 1960 with exponential growth seems pretty laughable to me. A very small tweak to the growth factor has huge impacts to your final number. 

[Leaf474]

15 hours ago, bluebell said:

True, but that's not exactly different than what we consider tithing today.  Christians still discussion what paying a full tithe looks like and they often disagree.  Members of the church often quibble between themselves on whether one should pay on gross or net, for example.  Regardless of what they decide they would still be considered full tithe payers by the church.

Well, giving a tenth of stuff you took from someone in battle once in your lifetime is different from giving 10% of your paycheck every pay period. That's what I'm thinking ❤️

 

15 hours ago, bluebell said:

Can you explain what you mean?  Abraham was dead long before there were any children of Levi.

The concept of giving a 10th existed long before the Israelites were told what to do regarding the Levites, that's true. But beyond that particular fraction (1/10), is it largely the same? We can talk in detail about each Bible passage where tithing occurs, if you wish. Something to ponder, again if you wish: Abraham lived in the general area of Salem. Was this the first (and only?) time he gave Melchizedek a 10th?

 

15 hours ago, bluebell said:

Which is very odd since people paid tithing long before the law of Moses existed.

Well... Possibly ❤️

 

15 hours ago, bluebell said:

Jesus being a priest according to the order of Melchizedek rather than Melchizedek being a priest after the order of the Son of God is an interpretation I don't think I've heard of before.

It's first mentioned in Psalm 110

The Lord has sworn, and will not change his mind: “You are a priest forever in the order of Melchizedek.”

(Odd situation, there: "The Lord" would be "Jehovah", but he's talking to the Messiah.)

 

Hebrews quotes that Psalm three times, the first occurrence is:

As he says also in another place, “You are a priest forever, after the order of Melchizedek.”

 

A link to the other occurrences

https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=Priest+forever+Melchizedek&resultspp=250&version=NASB&filter=65&startnumber=1

 

15 hours ago, bluebell said:

 

🙂👍

[Pyreaux]

16 hours ago, bluebell said:

I forgot to add that one reason tithing might not be mentioned in the Christian churches of the NT could be because they were living a type of consecration rather than the law of tithing.  We see this implied in the story of Ananias and Sapphira. 

I don't know of any other Christian denomination today or individual that tithes according to the Law. Tithing's only purpose was to pay in support of a Temple. Jews cannot tithe without the Temple, then most Christians today certainly cannot. Jesus critiqued the Pharisees for righteously obeying tithing as the law said to but neglecting to show mercy (Luke 11:42; Matthew 23:23). The widow's mite donated to the temple treasury was a righteous act. Jesus still thought the temple was his Father' house (Matthew 21:13). Certainly, Jewish Christians obeyed the Law, I don't know if Gentiles converts paid tithes to the Jews, though they certainly couldn't go to the Temple, being uncircumcised. Though there were many of their own buildings the Christians were calling "Temples" like in Edessa and elsewhere. The building with the Upper Room on Mt Zion was rebuilt using stones pilfered from the destroyed Temple of Harod. I think they were indeed "temples", then they'd be able to tithe.

    

http://www.centuryone.org/apostles.html

Edited November 22, 2023 by Pyreaux

[bluebell]

2 hours ago, Leaf474 said:

Very interesting, thank you ❤️

 

Thanks for the article. Most people assume the Bible talks about giving a tenth of your income to your local church. It doesn't actually say that. (I'm guessing the idea came out of the Reformation.) We can talk in detail about the Bible passages if you wish, but just as an example, the Israelites were to bring a tenth of their grain harvest and every tenth animal to the Tabernacle / Temple. An Israelite blacksmith would not have paid any tithes.

 

I see that the article doesn't talk about giving the tithes to the poor, so maybe that idea wouldn't fit after all.

 

The 100 billion that I'm hearing about, did the Church leaders prayerfully decide to invest that in the stock market? That sounds like I'm mocking, but I'm trying not to. I can't think of any non-mocking way to ask that 🙂

The 100 billion is what is (or was) the result of different types of investments. I’m not sure if they all qualify as stock market investments. I know very little about that stuff.

[mfbukowski]

12 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Interest is understood to mean income

Unfortunately that just uses one ambiguous word to try to explain another!

I suppose it means "what COMES IN" to the home/ person/entity.

But that just moves the ambiguity to different words.  That's why prayer is so important.

Government tax codes are hundreds of pages long , if not thousands, but they are still ambiguous. But they do help sometimes on tax matters even for church.

Tax payments you have made for example are deductible from your "income", says the government.  If THEY allow that, are they more or less greedy than God?

Does God allow for "adjusted gross income" ?  We get to figure that out, regarding tithing, for ourselves. 😳

Edited November 22, 2023 by mfbukowski

[Leaf474]

17 hours ago, bluebell said:

I agree it is a matter of the OT, including continuing to exist after the Law of Moses was implemented.  And I agree that it is nowhere explicitly taught in the New Testament (though it is not explicitly taught as having been fulfilled with the Law of Moses either). 

For Latter-day saints it's also a matter of the restoration and revelation. 

D&C 119's preface says:

Revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Far West, Missouri, July 8, 1838, in answer to his supplication: “O Lord! Show unto thy servants how much thou requirest of the properties of thy people for a tithing.” The law of tithing, as understood today, had not been given to the Church previous to this revelation. The term tithing in the prayer just quoted and in previous revelations (64:23; 85:3; 97:11) had meant not just one-tenth, but all free-will offerings, or contributions, to the Church funds. The Lord had previously given to the Church the law of consecration and stewardship of property, which members (chiefly the leading elders) entered into by a covenant that was to be everlasting. Because of failure on the part of many to abide by this covenant, the Lord withdrew it for a time and gave instead the law of tithing to the whole Church. The Prophet asked the Lord how much of their property He required for sacred purposes. The answer was this revelation.

1 Verily, thus saith the Lord, I require all their surplus property to be put into the hands of the bishop of my church in Zion, 2 For the building of mine house, and for the laying of the foundation of Zion and for the priesthood, and for the debts of the Presidency of my Church. 3 And this shall be the beginning of the tithing of my people. 4 And after that, those who have thus been tithed shall pay one-tenth of all their interest annually; and this shall be a standing law unto them forever, for my holy priesthood, saith the Lord.

 

Thanks for the information ❤️

 

I don't see anything about the poor in that revelation, so maybe that's not a proper destination for tithing.

[mfbukowski]

42 minutes ago, bluebell said:

The 100 billion is what is (or was) the result of different types of investments. I’m not sure if they all qualify as stock market investments. I know very little about that stuff.

Imo, the church is very good in their choice of investments.  They have a lot of commercial real estate also, obviously, farm land, etc.

You can also invest in commercial real estate in small amounts, without buying a shopping center  by investing in REITS- real estate investment trusts- in the form of stocks, on the stock market.  Google REIT for more info.

[Leaf474]

17 hours ago, bluebell said:

@Leaf474

You've probably already read this but in case you missed it, it provides some more information (it's from 2020).

https://www.deseret.com/faith/2020/2/14/21133740/mormon-church-finances-billions-presiding-bishopric-ensign-peak-tithing-donations-byu-real-estate

Thanks for the article ❤️

I noticed that Presiding Bishop Gérald Caussé talked a lot about general concepts but not very many dollar figures. A detailed financial statement would help imo.

 

On the idea of saving up large amounts for a future crisis, Matthew 6 came to mind. The whole passage is great, two particular quotes:

Don’t lay up treasures for yourselves on the earth, where moth and rust consume, and where thieves break through and steal.

 

See the birds of the sky, that they don’t sow, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns. Your heavenly Father feeds them. Aren’t you of much more value than they?

[mfbukowski]

20 minutes ago, Leaf474 said:

Thanks for the information ❤️

 

I don't see anything about the poor in that revelation, so maybe that's not a proper destination for tithing.

We also have another donation option specifically for the poor called " fast offerings" which are over and above tithing we are expected to pay.

Every 1st Sunday of the month we fast for at least two meals and donate the amount equivalent to the cost of those two meals, specifically earmarked to go straight to the poor, and indeed that is where it goes per the Bishop's direction.

Very often the amount actually donated is quite higher than two meals worth, as it should be imo.

That donation is over and above tithing.

AND of course no one in the church is paid for their service to God, except general authorities who work full time for the church 

Not even the organist.

 

[Leaf474]

3 hours ago, Tacenda said:

It'd be nice if the church would provide numbers so Widow's Mite doesn't have to. And if they get it wrong we could compare it to the church's stats. 

👍

[mfbukowski]

37 minutes ago, Leaf474 said:

Thanks for the article ❤️

I noticed that Presiding Bishop Gérald Caussé talked a lot about general concepts but not very many dollar figures. A detailed financial statement would help imo.

 

On the idea of saving up large amounts for a future crisis, Matthew 6 came to mind. The whole passage is great, two particular quotes:

Don’t lay up treasures for yourselves on the earth, where moth and rust consume, and where thieves break through and steal.

 

See the birds of the sky, that they don’t sow, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns. Your heavenly Father feeds them. Aren’t you of much more value than they?

You can actually see this as PRO- tithing imo.

How does heavenly father pay the rent today?  Does he just create currency like the govt.? 😏

From tithes and offerings in many cases!  I used to be a stake auditor, and I can testify, seeing rent receipts corresponding every time to expenditures, if there IS anything odd the Bishop is about to get yet another headache from the stake!!

And so we tithe payers become the "birds of the sky" BECAUSE we know we also have access to those funds if we come up short!

The auditor comes in quarterly and looks at every payment vs evidence for every expense, sniffing around for anything improper.

Edited November 22, 2023 by mfbukowski

[Pyreaux]

30 minutes ago, Leaf474 said:

On the idea of saving up large amounts for a future crisis, Matthew 6 came to mind. The whole passage is great, two particular quotes:

Don’t lay up treasures for yourselves on the earth, where moth and rust consume, and where thieves break through and steal.

See the birds of the sky, that they don’t sow, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns. Your heavenly Father feeds them. Aren’t you of much more value than they?

There is a distinction you've missed. Tithes are to be stored for the Temple. That scripture is about the idea of a fulltime minister like Apostles needing to build up wealth to serve. As the Levites ministered in the Temple, and had no land of inheritance, was supported by the other Israelites. The Apostles likewise were told by Jesus they need not labor for money, the church freely gave to them in order to support their ministry (2 Cor. 11:8-9; 1 Cor. 9:6-18). One could not have expected them to have a day-to-day occupation when traveling around the region preaching the gospel. Though they needed not store money, the church stored money in its coffers for them.

Edited November 22, 2023 by Pyreaux

[Stormin' Mormon]

44 minutes ago, Leaf474 said:

On the idea of saving up large amounts for a future crisis, Matthew 6 came to mind. The whole passage is great, two particular quotes:

Don’t lay up treasures for yourselves on the earth, where moth and rust consume, and where thieves break through and steal.

 

See the birds of the sky, that they don’t sow, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns. Your heavenly Father feeds them. Aren’t you of much more value than they?

On the idea of saving up large amounts for a future crisis, Luke 16 comes to mind:

 

Quote

 

9 And I say unto you, Make to yourselves friends of the mammon of unrighteousness; that, when ye fail, they may receive you into everlasting habitations.

10 He that is faithful in that which is least is faithful also in much: and he that is unjust in the least is unjust also in much.

11 If therefore ye have not been faithful in the unrighteous mammon, who will commit to your trust the true riches?

12 And if ye have not been faithful in that which is another man’s, who shall give you that which is your own?

 

 

[Teancum]

On 11/20/2023 at 1:48 PM, smac97 said:

The proposal is to for the Church to give away 5% of its reserve funds every year.  That is the benchmark.  Billions and billions of dollars flowing . . . somewhere.  Every year.  Teancum can't or won't say where.  He just makes broad declarations about the Church hiring "smart people" to do this.  

Right.  Because our discussion was not how and where to give.  It was about how much to give.  Unlike you I think the church leaders and management are capable of setting up a organization to explore where and how to give more. You seem to think they are incapable in this area. Not sure why because you act like they are nigh to perfect in most other instances.  This is not my area of expertise. But there are expert.  And you comment that there are to few reputable organizations to give to is what is facile.  And the church could set up many of its own charities to manage additional giving if they wanted to. It is odd that you find so many reasons for the church not to do more.  

 

On 11/20/2023 at 1:48 PM, smac97 said:

I think it is facile and unreasonable to bandy about proposals involving the disposition of many billions of dollars on an annualized basis with no coherent explanation of where the money would actually go, or what the Church should do if it cannot find appropriate "vectors" for such humanitarian giving.

Good lord man.  Give it a rest. Nobody said that tomorrow the church should go out and just start giving 5 billion more away per year. Neither myself or @Analyticsare arguing for that.  And you keep putting words in our mouths.

On 11/20/2023 at 1:48 PM, smac97 said:

I think the Church really is interested in helping in humanitarian efforts, but it is substantially limited in finding effective "vectors" for such help, difficulties which "mega-wealthy" billionaires are likewise facing.  I think Roger and Teancum are refusing to address this because conceding this point would inexorably lead to the question of what should the Church do if it can't find such vectors, and the answer would be . . . what the Church is doing now.  Can't have that.

Well we are addressing it now. We both have said it is not easy but it is doable. 

[Leaf474]

29 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

You can actually see this as PRO- tithing imo.

How does heavenly father pay the rent today?  Does he just create currency like the govt.? 😏

From tithes and offerings in many cases!  I used to be a stake auditor, and I can testify, seeing rent receipts corresponding every time to expenditures, if there IS anything odd the Bishop is about to get yet another headache from the stake!!

And so we tithe payers become the "birds of the sky" BECAUSE we know we also have access to those funds if we come up short!

The auditor comes in quarterly and looks at every payment vs evidence for every expense, sniffing around for anything improper.

Sorry, I'm not following how that relates to what I wrote. Are you saying that individuals shouldn't lay up treasures on Earth but the Church, the body of Christ, should?

[Leaf474]

36 minutes ago, Pyreaux said:

There is a distinction you've missed. Tithes are to be stored for the Temple.

For the Temple only, not local meeting places? If so, we basically agree in concept. I'd clarify it as it was for the Levites and the priests. God commanded the building of the tent in the wilderness. I don't think he actually commanded the building of any temples as far as the Biblical record goes. (Though I suppose the prophet Haggai indicates that God wanted the temple rebuilt after the exile.)

 

36 minutes ago, Pyreaux said:

That scripture is about the idea of a fulltime minister like Apostles needing to build up wealth to serve.

Matthew 6 is only about apostles, not "regular" people?

 

36 minutes ago, Pyreaux said:

As the Levites ministered in the Temple, and had no land of inheritance, was supported by the other Israelites. The Apostles likewise were told by Jesus they need not labor for money, the church freely gave to them in order to support their ministry (2 Cor. 11:8-9; 1 Cor. 9:6-18). One could not have expected them to have a day-to-day occupation when traveling around the region preaching the gospel. Though they needed not store money, the church stored money in its coffers for them.

 

Edited November 22, 2023 by Leaf474

[Leaf474]

22 minutes ago, Stormin' Mormon said:

On the idea of saving up large amounts for a future crisis, Luke 16 comes to mind:

 

 

Definitely! And I'm thinking that making friends for yourself with the Mammon of unrighteousness is giving money away?

[pogi]

18 hours ago, helix said:

Just chiming in that I take Widows Mite with a grain of salt. The authors have a clear bent against the church, they routinely and openly refuse to cite their sources, they routinely estimate without any justification why, and the few times they do justify their estimate they often make bizarre low-ball justifications. Out of all the estimations I've seen from various folks, theirs is the lowest. (Which appears to be by design, in my opinion.) They want to present an aura of professionalism, but their methdology is an amateur hack job.

A better methodology is to use the last known public figures and extrapolate forward in time. If we do that, we're more than double the Widows Mite estimate. This paper describes that process: https://journal.interpreterfoundation.org/through-a-glass-darkly-examining-church-finances/. They conclude an estimate of $12 billion in 2010.

I think it is probably wise to take any estimate with a grain of salt.  

The projection methodology has it's limits as well, as you can see when you compare Quinn's numbers to the numbers this paper concludes.  Those differences are significant.   The methodology in this paper does not have good citations or notes either.  Why 6% instead of 8%, for example?  Why not lower than 6%?  How and why did they land on 6%?  Seems pretty random.

From the paper:

Quote

Therefore, given what we know regarding the declining rates of membership, inflation, and income, it is possible that the growth rate in tithing donations fell from Quinn’s 12.9 to 8 percent 30 years later (1990‒1999) and perhaps as low as 6 percent during the next 11 years (2000‒2010). If those lower rates of tithing receipts are accurate, they [Page 131]imply that tithing in 2010 may have been closer to $12 billion rather than $33 billion.15

Quote

15. Obviously, using the 12.9 percent from 1960 to 1989, I obtain almost the same tithing as Quinn for that later year: tithing of $2.978 billion. Using 8 percent from 1990 to 1999 gives me $6.429 billion rather than his $8.872 billion. The large difference comes when you apply a 6 percent for the last decade (2000‒2010) rather than 12.9. The statistical Rule of 72 predicts that a value increasing at 12.9 percent will double in 5.6 years; therefore, $8.9 is almost quadrupling in 11 years, while increasing at 6 percent takes 12 years to double.

 Does this number take into account the data points from widow's mite site?  Why or why not?    

It seems to me that the Widows Mite uses more data points and inputs to calculate their numbers:

Quote

Annual tithes and offerings estimated by reconciliation of 4 model inputs: 1) active membership & geographic household income analysis.

That seems like important data to assess in calculating tithing income that the projection method doesn't seem to include in detail. 

Quote

2) surveys of current and former bishops regarding tithing and fast offering averages.

I wish they cited this better, but seems like important info to know.  Of course we would need global surveys as I am sure tithing rates differ in different regions.  However, most tithing income will be from developing countries.  

Quote

3) bottom-up Church expenses analysis reconciled with surplus tithing and EPA asset accumulation data.

4) range as estimated by senior EPA official in (source 28)

You are right, I would like to see better notes and citations, but I don't see how the projection method is better in that regard and includes fewer data points to consider. 

Edited November 22, 2023 by pogi

[CV75]

The Enoch-Zion and Melchizedek-Salem religio-economic complices evidently followed some very successful tithing and wealth management practices!

 

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Leaf474 said:

Sorry, I'm not following how that relates to what I wrote. Are you saying that individuals shouldn't lay up treasures on Earth but the Church, the body of Christ, should?

No.

God provides to the needy through the church.

When we are financially stressed, members of the church AND OTHERS can go to the church and receive food, rent, bills paid etc. without fear of legitimate emergencies.  And so they are similar to the birds of the field without worry. 

You are seeing it as a LACK of the church, not doing enough, while I am seeing it as one receiving help.

2 sides of the same coin, yet again= the Caeser vs God issue.

[Leaf474]

31 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

No.

God provides to the needy through the church.

When we are financially stressed, members of the church AND OTHERS can go to the church and receive food, rent, bills paid etc. without fear of legitimate emergencies.  And so they are similar to the birds of the field without worry.

 

31 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

You are seeing it as a LACK of the church, not doing enough, while I am seeing it as one receiving help.

I don't think I'm seeing it as a lack of the Church. I'm saying that if the Church wanted to give away more, it probably could. I also think that it would be great if the Church would publish detailed financial records, then people wouldn't have to speculate.

 

I also think that regarding the article below, the idea that the Church needs to have large reserves because of a possible large financial crisis in the future doesn't fit with Jesus' teachings imo.

https://www.deseret.com/faith/2020/2/14/21133740/mormon-church-finances-billions-presiding-bishopric-ensign-peak-tithing-donations-byu-real-estate

31 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

2 sides of the same coin, yet again= the Caeser vs God issue.

 

Edited November 22, 2023 by Leaf474

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Leaf474 said:

 

I don't think I'm seeing it as a lack of the Church. I'm saying that if the Church wanted to give away more, it probably could. I also think that it would be great if the Church would publish detailed financial records, then people wouldn't have to speculate.

 

I also think that regarding the article below, the idea that the Church needs to have large reserves because of a possible large financial crisis in the future doesn't fit with Jesus' teachings imo.

https://www.deseret.com/faith/2020/2/14/21133740/mormon-church-finances-billions-presiding-bishopric-ensign-peak-tithing-donations-byu-real-estate

 

It is hard for you, I think, to understand that taking care of the poor is NOT the top priority here, one must look at ALL the other priorities mentioned  in the article, that you do not see a need for, like, say, building temples.

We actually believe that one day WE will have the responsibility to establish Zion, a world wide nation- state, headed by Jesus himself, and provide for everyone on on earth still living, and MORE in the process of resurrection living much like those poor folks now experiencing the Israeli/ Hamas conflict, but on a worldwide basis.

I know that probably sounds ridiculous.

But read the article you suggested closely, and you WILL see what the priorities are. I think that article reinforces what I am attempting to present much better than what I could ever come up with!

It is not for others who do not fully understand AND BELIEVE IN the church's priorities to judge what they are doing with their assets!

I can clearly climb back to my earlier modes of thinking to be able to understand you, I think, but my perspectives have changed. 

[pogi]

2 hours ago, Leaf474 said:

I also think that regarding the article below, the idea that the Church needs to have large reserves because of a possible large financial crisis in the future doesn't fit with Jesus' teachings imo.

Nor does it make sense to have large financial reserves in the stock market to hedge against a financial crisis on the scale that is being talked about.  It would become useless.  

[Leaf474]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

It is hard for you, I think, to understand that taking care of the poor is NOT the top priority here, one must look at ALL the other priorities mentioned  in the article, that you do not see a need for, like, say, building temples.

I don't think it's hard to understand. Someone had referenced a revelation from Joseph Smith saying that the tithes were to cover Church operations, or words to that effect. Giving to the poor wasn't mentioned.

 

Earlier in the thread, I was discussing the idea of how an organization could give away $100 billion dollars if they wanted to.

 

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

We actually believe that one day WE will have the responsibility to establish Zion, a world wide nation- state, headed by Jesus himself, and provide for everyone on on earth still living, and MORE in the process of resurrection living much like those poor folks now experiencing the Israeli/ Hamas conflict, but on a worldwide basis.

If that's going to be done through human means

(as opposed to something like the manna in the wilderness)

then it seems like laying up treasures on Earth would be necessary.

 

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

I know that probably sounds ridiculous.

Not at all 🙂

 

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

But read the article you suggested closely, and you WILL see what the priorities are. I think that article reinforces what I am attempting to present much better than what I could ever come up with!

Well, you have to go with what the prophets, seers, and revelators say, as I understand the situation 🙂

 

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

It is not for others who do not fully understand AND BELIEVE IN the church's priorities to judge what they are doing with their assets!

I don't believe I was judging, unless it was judging to say that it looked to me that it was contrary to the teachings of Jesus as recorded in the New Testament. That was my opinion.

 

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

I can clearly climb back to my earlier modes of thinking to be able to understand you, I think, but my perspectives have changed. 

❤️

[Leaf474]

21 minutes ago, pogi said:

Nor does it make sense to have large financial reserves in the stock market to hedge against a financial crisis on the scale that is being talked about.  It would become useless.  

Very true! I have a good friend who sincerely believes the USA will have a civil war in the next few years. We often talk about the best way he can prepare for it. If there's hyperinflation, money in the bank is useless. If the economy crashes, the stock market will likely crash as well. Cryptocurrency is a possibility, but that only has value if the internet survives. Gold bullion is a possibility, but then you'd basically need an army to defend it. To use Jesus' words, "thieves break in steal."

 

Oddly enough, his research indicates that ammunition could be the hot commodity in a significant collapse 😀