Church sued again over how it uses tithing contributions from members

[Teancum]

On 11/21/2023 at 3:00 PM, InCognitus said:

I was a "facilitator" for two different self reliance groups a few years ago (using the church's self reliance programs), and one of the topics I was assigned to facilitate was the one on "Starting and Growing My Business".

The manual for Starting and Growing My Business helps people sort out how to distinguish what is relevant for tithing and what is not.  This comes from page 124 of the PDF:

This sets the stage for how to know how tithing should be calculated, from page 125 of the PDF:

This is basic accounting, and I like that the church's resource makes this clear.   But by using these instructions, those who own their own businesses really don't pay tithing any differently than any other employee.

Except technically, an owner of a sole proprietorship or and LLC/Partnership, is not allowed to take a salary per IRS rules.  But they can take a draw which is like a salary.  As a partner in a CPA firm when I tithed, I tithed on my monthly draw plus bonuses paid out at year end.  Any portion of earnings allocated to me, that was left in the partnership, I did not tithe on.  So essentially I did what you outlined.

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Leaf474 said:

If that's going to be done through human means

(as opposed to something like the manna in the wilderness)

then it seems like laying up treasures on Earth would be necessary.

Yes, agree!

AND I think anything else opposes our overall view of a God who decided long ago to act naturalistically, sacrificing his transcendence to become fully "Human" himself. Anything else  would reduce our agency, and even perhaps call into question God's Humanistic nature.

So yes, I think that forces us to see it as a problem we get to fix for ourselves, as Adam & E. had to resolve the puzzle of replenishing the earth AND remaining "transcendent", or "Super"-natural as opposed to becoming a natural man- carnal and an alleged "enemy to God".

Agency is the key. 

No Deus ex machina snapping his fingers and reversing the coils!

We made the problem, we fix the problem! 

 

 

[MiserereNobis]

5 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

No Deus ex machina snapping his fingers and reversing the coils!

We made the problem, we fix the problem! 

Christianity is literally Deus Ex Machina. 

I can’t fix the problems I’ve made. Only God can. 

Perhaps your humanist philosophy is overshadowing the foundation of Christianity?

Edited November 23, 2023 by MiserereNobis

[mfbukowski]

6 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

Christianity is literally Deus Ex Machina. 

I can’t fix the problems I’ve made. Only God can. 

Perhaps your humanist philosophy is overshadowing the foundation of Christianity?

Hmmm.  Now what was the reason God had to become human to fix humanity again? Yes, that's the only way He COULD fix men!

That's what I THOUGHT I was saying...

DANG that ambiguity AGAIN ? 🥺

 

[Leaf474]

14 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Yes, agree!

AND I think anything else opposes our overall view of a God who decided long ago to act naturalistically, sacrificing his transcendence to become fully "Human" himself. Anything else  would reduce our agency, and even perhaps call into question God's Humanistic nature.

So yes, I think that forces us to see it as a problem we get to fix for ourselves, as Adam & E. had to resolve the puzzle of replenishing the earth AND remaining "transcendent", or "Super"-natural as opposed to becoming a natural man- carnal and an alleged "enemy to God".

Agency is the key. 

No Deus ex machina snapping his fingers and reversing the coils!

We made the problem, we fix the problem! 

Are you saying no more miracles?

 

If so, that's an interesting view 🙂

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Leaf474 said:

Are you saying no more miracles?

 

If so, that's an interesting view 🙂

Good question, but I did not want to bring it up earlier because it would have just muddied the waters.

Technically we do not believe in "miracles"!

God uses natural means beyond our comprehension- at this time- to complete his purposes.

Imagine a TV in 4000 BC.!  Speaking with others thousands of miles away, images and voices from a little box!

Electricity! Light all night, no fire! Pluck a guy from 4k BC and take a walk with him down the Vegas Strip!

Airplanes! 

Cars!

Did God use a mini-nuke to take out Sodom?

I'm sure you get the point!

Miracles

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/2001/06/miracles?lang=eng

 

 

Edited November 23, 2023 by mfbukowski
Added link

[bluebell]

On 11/22/2023 at 10:16 AM, Leaf474 said:

Thanks for the article ❤️

I noticed that Presiding Bishop Gérald Caussé talked a lot about general concepts but not very many dollar figures. A detailed financial statement would help imo.

 

On the idea of saving up large amounts for a future crisis, Matthew 6 came to mind. The whole passage is great, two particular quotes:

Don’t lay up treasures for yourselves on the earth, where moth and rust consume, and where thieves break through and steal.

 

See the birds of the sky, that they don’t sow, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns. Your heavenly Father feeds them. Aren’t you of much more value than they?

I’m out of town until Sunday (yesterday was an eight hour car ride) and only have my phone. Which is not the funnest to try to type on. So we’ll have to take this discussion back up again on Monday. Happy Thanksgiving!

[Leaf474]

6 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Good question, but I did not want to bring it up earlier because it would have just muddied the waters.

Technically we do not believe in "miracles"!

God uses natural means beyond our comprehension- at this time- to complete his purposes.

Imagine a TV in 4000 BC.!  Speaking with others thousands of miles away, images and voices from a little box!

Electricity! Light all night, no fire! Pluck a guy from 4k BC and take a walk with him down the Vegas Strip!

Airplanes! 

Cars!

Did God use a mini-nuke to take out Sodom?

I'm sure you get the point!

 

Okay, I'll reword my earlier post...

 

If the Church is going to provide for everyone on Earth through natural means that we can currently comprehend

(as opposed to means that we cannot currently comprehend, such as manna in the wilderness)

then it seems like laying up treasures on Earth would be necessary.

[Leaf474]

4 hours ago, bluebell said:

I’m out of town until Sunday (yesterday was an eight hour car ride) and only have my phone. Which is not the funnest to try to type on. So we’ll have to take this discussion back up again on Monday. Happy Thanksgiving!

Happy Thanksgiving to you as well!

 

As a side note, I use only my phone for foruming. I use Google voice typing and find it actually much easier than a full size keyboard. And I won typing awards in school!

[bluebell]

23 minutes ago, Leaf474 said:

Happy Thanksgiving to you as well!

 

As a side note, I use only my phone for foruming. I use Google voice typing and find it actually much easier than a full size keyboard. And I won typing awards in school!

I use voice to text often, but if I’m trying to respond to a long post that I need to divide up then it is such a huge pain in the rear if I’m not on my laptop.

[blackstrap]

On 11/22/2023 at 4:53 PM, Leaf474 said:

ammunition could be the hot commodity in a significant collapse

and toilet paper, don't forget toilet paper. 

[blackstrap]

I wonder if there were those in the days of Moses who questioned the idea of burnt offerings where flocks were literally turned into ash when the meat could have been used to feed the poor. Yes, I know some offerings were used to feed the priests and others . 

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Leaf474 said:

Okay, I'll reword my earlier post...

 

If the Church is going to provide for everyone on Earth through natural means that we can currently comprehend

(as opposed to means that we cannot currently comprehend, such as manna in the wilderness)

then it seems like laying up treasures on Earth would be necessary.

Oops. I misunderstood I guess!

Thanks!

[Leaf474]

13 hours ago, blackstrap said:

I wonder if there were those in the days of Moses who questioned the idea of burnt offerings where flocks were literally turned into ash when the meat could have been used to feed the poor. Yes, I know some offerings were used to feed the priests and others . 

Some of the tithes was eaten by the poor as well. I believe that's in the latter part of Deuteronomy 14 iirc.

[Kenngo1969]

On 11/19/2023 at 3:09 PM, Buckeye said:

My wife began wearing pants to church this year. She had some concern that she’d be judged, but nary a comment so far. Just a call to join the ward YW presidency. 

Dang!   Welp, that backfired bigtime, didn't it?!

(Just having a little fun with you Buckeye.  Best to you and to your wife, and to all of yours.)

[bluebell]

On 11/22/2023 at 10:16 AM, Leaf474 said:

Thanks for the article ❤️

I noticed that Presiding Bishop Gérald Caussé talked a lot about general concepts but not very many dollar figures. A detailed financial statement would help imo.

 

It definitely would help all of us armchair quarterbacks to know if our arguments make any sense or not. Still, not having one hasn't stopped us from making them. 

Quote

 

On the idea of saving up large amounts for a future crisis, Matthew 6 came to mind. The whole passage is great, two particular quotes:

Don’t lay up treasures for yourselves on the earth, where moth and rust consume, and where thieves break through and steal.

See the birds of the sky, that they don’t sow, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns. Your heavenly Father feeds them. Aren’t you of much more value than they?

 

I think our leaders are more of a 'use the seven years of plenty so that people can last through the seven years of famine' scripture passage group. 

Besides that, I think the passage in matthew is specific to the context and time that it was given (to the 12 heading out to spread the gospel) and is not meant to be taken as general financial advice to Christians where Christ is teaching that they shouldn't work or save because God will provide for them.

[bluebell]

On 11/22/2023 at 9:54 AM, Leaf474 said:

Thanks for the information ❤️

 

I don't see anything about the poor in that revelation, so maybe that's not a proper destination for tithing.

I don't remember if I ever responded to this one, but the poor is taken care of through "offerings".  Those are separate donations from tithing.

[bluebell]

On 11/22/2023 at 9:03 AM, Leaf474 said:

Well, giving a tenth of stuff you took from someone in battle once in your lifetime is different from giving 10% of your paycheck every pay period. That's what I'm thinking ❤️

True, but paying tithing on net is different from paying tithing on gross too.  

Plus, tithing has always been different depending on the era.  Paychecks are very very recent developments in history. 

 

 

Quote

The concept of giving a 10th existed long before the Israelites were told what to do regarding the Levites, that's true. But beyond that particular fraction (1/10), is it largely the same? We can talk in detail about each Bible passage where tithing occurs, if you wish. Something to ponder, again if you wish: Abraham lived in the general area of Salem. Was this the first (and only?) time he gave Melchizedek a 10th?

We could go into detail but I don't think it's necessary.  I'm just saying that Abraham and his posterity paid tithing before the Israelites existed, so the practice's purpose cannot be tied soley to them and the law of Moses.

 

Well... Possibly ❤️

Quote

 

It's first mentioned in Psalm 110

The Lord has sworn, and will not change his mind: “You are a priest forever in the order of Melchizedek.”

(Odd situation, there: "The Lord" would be "Jehovah", but he's talking to the Messiah.)

 

Hebrews quotes that Psalm three times, the first occurrence is:

As he says also in another place, “You are a priest forever, after the order of Melchizedek.”

 

A link to the other occurrences

https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=Priest+forever+Melchizedek&resultspp=250&version=NASB&filter=65&startnumber=1

 

🙂👍

 

Aw, I see where you are coming from.  Yes, taken literally that passage doesn't make much sense.

[Leaf474]

13 hours ago, bluebell said:

It definitely would help all of us armchair quarterbacks to know if our arguments make any sense or not. Still, not having one hasn't stopped us from making them. 

First off, I'm glad you're back, and I hope you had a happy Thanksgiving trip ❤️

_______

Do the leaders give a reason as to why they don't produce detailed financial statements?

 

13 hours ago, bluebell said:

I think our leaders are more of a 'use the seven years of plenty so that people can last through the seven years of famine' scripture passage group.

Well, a few observations:

Genesis 41 about the seven fat years and so on is a specific prophecy. Pharaoh has two particular dreams, Joseph interprets. Have the leaders given a specific prophecy in this situation regarding why they are saving the $100 billion?

 

Should the passage be taken as a general truth? We should always be laying up treasure on Earth when times are good to prepare for when times are bad?

 

I took away from @mfbukowski that the Saints are expecting a massive worldwide apocalypse, and the $100 billion was to provide for the world at that time. That comes to around $15 per person. Is that the plan? I'm trying not to sound critical, just looking for information. If that's the plan, so be it 🙂

 

13 hours ago, bluebell said:

Besides that, I think the passage in matthew is specific to the context and time that it was given (to the 12 heading out to spread the gospel) and is not meant to be taken as general financial advice to Christians where Christ is teaching that they shouldn't work or save because God will provide for them.

Matthew 6 is actually part of the sermon on the Mount. It's not really related to the sending out of the 12 imo. The sermon closes with "Everyone therefore who hears these words of mine and does them, I will liken them to a wise person who built their house on a rock."

And

"When Jesus had finished saying these things, the multitudes were astonished at his teaching."

(They are some truly astonishing teachings!)

 

Myself, I do see it as general financial advice. At the same time, I do have some savings (partly because the savings aren't mine alone, but are my wife's as well). Yet looking back over the years, I have felt the most joy and freedom when I've have the least amount of money.

Matthew 13:22

What was sown among the thorns, these are the ones who hear the word, but the cares of this age and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and they become unfruitful.

[Leaf474]

14 hours ago, bluebell said:

True, but paying tithing on net is different from paying tithing on gross too.  

Plus, tithing has always been different depending on the era.  Paychecks are very very recent developments in history. 

Right, I think it's a matter of the degree of difference.

 

Giving a tenth of stuff you took from other people in battle once in your lifetime looks to me way, way different than giving a tenth of stuff you earned every pay period. But that's from my perspective 🙂

 

14 hours ago, bluebell said:

We could go into detail but I don't think it's necessary.  I'm just saying that Abraham and his posterity paid tithing before the Israelites existed, so the practice's purpose cannot be tied soley to them and the law of Moses.

The practice of giving a tenth, that's true. But it looks to me like what Abraham does is so wildly different than what people think of today that it can't really be called the same practice.

 

14 hours ago, bluebell said:

Well... Possibly ❤️

If Abraham only gave a tenth of something he got on a particular day or two once in his lifetime and never gave to that particular person/organization again, looks different to me 🙂

 

14 hours ago, bluebell said:

Aw, I see where you are coming from.  Yes, taken literally that passage doesn't make much sense.

❤️

#####

The story of Jacob in Genesis 28 is interesting for another pre-Moses perspective:

Jacob vowed a vow, saying, “If God will be with me, and will keep me in this way that I go, and will give me bread to eat, and clothing to put on, 21 so that I come again to my father’s house in peace, and the Lord will be my God, 22 then this stone, which I have set up for a pillar, will be God’s house. Of all that you will give me I will surely give a tenth to you.”

 

The "tenth" idea is there, but this time it's conditional - "if you do x, I will do y".

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Leaf474 said:

I took away from @mfbukowski that the Saints are expecting a massive worldwide apocalypse, and the $100 billion was to provide for the world at that time. That comes to around $15 per person. Is that the plan? I'm trying not to sound critical, just looking for information. If that's the plan, so be it 🙂

If you are really interested, look up "lds zion" and also "lds new jerusalem"

Also this is a start:

Preparation for the Second Coming

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2004/04/preparation-for-the-second-coming?lang=eng

Also

Zion

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/gs/zion?lang=eng

Joseph Smith papers

https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/topic/new-jerusalem

These are some church sources which confirm, but do not sensationalize the belief, for obvious reasons. But clearly "gathering Israel"- VERY popular with President Nelson- imo is a buzz word for this literal gathering to a central city, ruled by Christ personally, which will unite the good against evil.  And traditionally the location of the city will be around the Missouri/ Kansas border right here in the US.

It is what it is; but the church will need a few bucks and a lot of real estate to pull it off.😳

[bluebell]

3 hours ago, Leaf474 said:

Giving a tenth of stuff you took from other people in battle once in your lifetime looks to me way, way different than giving a tenth of stuff you earned every pay period. But that's from my perspective 🙂

 

The practice of giving a tenth, that's true. But it looks to me like what Abraham does is so wildly different than what people think of today that it can't really be called the same practice.

 

If Abraham only gave a tenth of something he got on a particular day or two once in his lifetime and never gave to that particular person/organization again, looks different to me 🙂

I thought that Abraham declined to accept the spoils?  

But, it's not just Abraham that we have record of paying tithes.  As you noted Jacob also covenanted to tithe in Genesis 28.  A covenant is by definition a two way promise.  I read Jacob's words as agreeing to a covenant where God has obligations and so does Jacob.  I guess in that way you could say that any time we make a covenant with God our promises to follow Him are conditional.  

Our covenant to tithe today is "conditional" in the same way that Jacob's was.

 

[mfbukowski]

3 hours ago, Leaf474 said:

I took away from @mfbukowski that the Saints are expecting a massive worldwide apocalypse, and the $100 billion was to provide for the world at that time. That comes to around $15 per person. Is that the plan? I'm trying not to sound critical, just looking for information. If that's the plan, so be it 🙂

Here's a good reference also

New Jerusalem

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/gs/new-jerusalem?lang=eng

And this is from the ARTICLES OF FAITH - it's a little hard to NOT see what it plainly says, or pretend it is not Doctrine.

Every little child learns this:

"10 We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory."

 

Edited November 28, 2023 by mfbukowski

[bluebell]

3 hours ago, Leaf474 said:

First off, I'm glad you're back, and I hope you had a happy Thanksgiving trip ❤️

_______

Do the leaders give a reason as to why they don't produce detailed financial statements?

I don't know, I've never checked.

Quote

Genesis 41 about the seven fat years and so on is a specific prophecy. Pharaoh has two particular dreams, Joseph interprets. Have the leaders given a specific prophecy in this situation regarding why they are saving the $100 billion?

First, it's probably important to note that it was $100 at the time of that specific information release.  It's worth is always changing though because investments lose money and gain it over time.  It's not a static number.  It doesn't even actually exist accept on paper.  Much of it is data on a computer screen and not liquid assets.  The last I've seen it mentioned, it had lost quite a bit of money during the economic downturn.

The SLT Tribune reported:

"The church investments have seen a 23% decline for 2022 as of September, faring a little worse than the blue-chip-oriented Dow, down 21% over the same period, as global investors reacted to record-high inflation, U.S. interest rate hikes, layoffs by major technology companies and the ongoing war in Ukraine."

So we probably aren't talking about $100bn anymore.

But no, I don't believe there is any specific prophecy spurring them except to be a wise steward of the resources the Lord provides.

Quote

Should the passage be taken as a general truth? We should always be laying up treasure on Earth when times are good to prepare for when times are bad?

It probably depends on what you mean by 'treasure'.  Should we always try to have savings?  I think yes, that's a part of being a wise steward of our resources.  Should we hoard money or make "laying up treasures for ourselves" our main goal in life?  No.  Should our hearts be set upon treasure rather than the things of God? No.  

It all comes down to the focus and the "why".

Quote

I took away from @mfbukowski that the Saints are expecting a massive worldwide apocalypse, and the $100 billion was to provide for the world at that time. That comes to around $15 per person. Is that the plan? I'm trying not to sound critical, just looking for information. If that's the plan, so be it 🙂

I don't know what mfb has said about it I haven't read any of his posts.  But no I don't think the plan is to use that money to take care of individual people.

Quote

 

Matthew 6 is actually part of the sermon on the Mount. It's not really related to the sending out of the 12 imo. The sermon closes with "Everyone therefore who hears these words of mine and does them, I will liken them to a wise person who built their house on a rock."

And

"When Jesus had finished saying these things, the multitudes were astonished at his teaching."

(They are some truly astonishing teachings!)

 

Sorry, I thought you were referring to the passages in Luke 9 and 12.  

In those passages it seems clear that Jesus is teaching against covetousness, greed, and selfishness and letting worldly cares stop you from doing God's work.  I don't think any of them apply to what the church is doing.

[Leaf474]

4 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

If you are really interested, look up "lds zion" and also "lds new jerusalem"

Also this is a start:

Preparation for the Second Coming

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2004/04/preparation-for-the-second-coming?lang=eng

Also

Zion

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/gs/zion?lang=eng

Joseph Smith papers

https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/topic/new-jerusalem

These are some church sources which confirm, but do not sensationalize the belief, for obvious reasons. But clearly "gathering Israel"- VERY popular with President Nelson- imo is a buzz word for this literal gathering to a central city, ruled by Christ personally, which will unite the good against evil.  And traditionally the location of the city will be around the Missouri/ Kansas border right here in the US.

It is what it is; but the church will need a few bucks and a lot of real estate to pull it off.😳

Is the $100 billion, then, just to support Zion, a city yet to come sometime in the future here in the US? Or the entire world?