Church sued again over how it uses tithing contributions from members

[mfbukowski]

58 minutes ago, Leaf474 said:

Two questions:

Why do baptisms for the dead have to be done in temples? It looks like baptisms for the living can be done anywhere; John the Baptist was baptizing in the Jordan.

 

If temples are required, why do they have to be expensive? As I read the Bible account, God was happy living in a tent.

There you go!

Start a thread!

 

[CV75]

1 hour ago, Leaf474 said:

Sure, if you wish ❤️

The OP presents the idea that someone is sueing the Church, which I believe led us to the question of what is the proper use of Church funds, especially the $100 billion currently invested. One answer is that the Church has to have a lot of temples, which are expensive to build and maintain, in order to perform lots of baptisms for the dead at the second coming.

 

Two questions:

Why do baptisms for the dead have to be done in temples? It looks like baptisms for the living can be done anywhere; John the Baptist was baptizing in the Jordan.

 

If temples are required, why do they have to be expensive? As I read the Bible account, God was happy living in a tent.

It's amazing to me that the $100B figure is taken for granted as correct. But what is the lowest figure that would generate connections to the cost of temples?

QI: D&C 124

Q2: Googled estimates for the construction cost of the tabernacle in the wilderness range from $60 - 200M in today's dollars.

[Leaf474]

5 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

There you go!

Start a thread!

Thanks for the invitation ❤️ I'm planning to spend more time on Reddit and Mastodon. (Though, I also said that on a site called Christian Forums, and I've ended up posting there a lot recently 😄 ) I find the rules here a little bit stifling to open conversation, the recent discussion about Temple procedures being a case in point. I think I understand the reasons for the rules, though.

 

I do plan to poke my nose back in here occasionally, though. I feel like I've made some great internet friendships!

 

And I do !super-duper! appreciate all the time that all of the people have put into responding to me ❤️❤️❤️

[Leaf474]

8 minutes ago, CV75 said:

It's amazing to me that the $100B figure is taken for granted as correct. But what is the lowest figure that would generate connections to the cost of temples?

QI: D&C 124

Q2: Googled estimates for the construction cost of the tabernacle in the wilderness range from $60 - 200M in today's dollars.

Thanks for the input ❤️

[Calm]

15 hours ago, Leaf474 said:

Are they doing that now? Thanks for your input ❤️

Many of the things they do could be seen in that light, such as the purchase of land for farming and ranching. 

[Leaf474]

11 hours ago, Calm said:

Many of the things they do could be seen in that light, such as the purchase of land for farming and ranching. 

I didn't know that ❤️ How much land have they purchased so far?

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Leaf474 said:

I didn't know that ❤️ How much land have they purchased so far?

Just to be clear, while some of the farming ranching land is part of the welfare arm of the Church, producing food that is canned, etc. and then available in the various Bishop Storehouses or shipped to where it is needed, these days probably most of the agricultural land owned by the Church is currently for profit operations (this is a guess on my part given the massive Deseret Ranches and the latest purchase, but I could be wrong).

https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/how-deseret-ranches-of-florida-one-of-the-largest-us-cow-calf-ranching-operations-looks-to-sustain-its-legacy

https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/sacred-island-soil-how-a-church-farm-in-hawaii-is-feeding-bodies-and-souls

https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/church-wheat-supply-provides-food-home-storage-humanitarian-efforts

This is 20 years old and likely some land has been sold and some bought, like the recent massive purchase in Wyoming discussed in another thread, but useful to understand the spread.  This also just may refer to the Welfare Farms and not the for profit land.

https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/church-helps-drought-stricken-australian-farmers

Quote

The Church's Kooba Station in Griffith, NSW, is the source of the funds. The farm is one of a network of Church-owned properties worldwide from which humanitarian aid donations can come. There are Church-owned farms in 39 states of the USA and in Canada, New Zealand, England, Argentina, Mexico and Australia.

"In spite of some recent rains along the east coast, the national drought is still particularly severe and funds are still needed to alleviate the difficulties of farmers throughout the country," said Elder Johnson.

"We like to think that this gift represents one farmer helping another in a time of need. Because we are experiencing the same drought conditions at Kooba Station as other farmers, we well understand their plight."

Since its purchase by the Church a few years ago, Kooba Station has contributed to many projects as part of the Church's worldwide humanitarian program. From 1985 to 2002, the Church provided approximately $A 800 million in humanitarian and charitable aid internationally.

There is a claim that the Church owns at least 1.7 million acres in the US alone from a year or two ago, but I understand this is a guesstimate based on how many chapels it owns and listings that appear to be connected to the Church, that may or may not have been educated guesses.  There were known additional holdings that were not included, so unknown how accurate this is.

For farming…

Quote

Perhaps the most impressive of the church’s lands in terms of acreage are some of its gargantuan food-production and cattle-growing operations, run by its farming subsidiaries, Farmland Reserve and AgReserve.

The database documents farm holdings worth at least $2.3 billion, with notably huge sections of it in Nebraska, rural Montana, Florida, Texas and Utah. Farms, ranches, pastures, orchards and other agricultural lands under church ownership stretch horizon to horizon, with tens of thousands of contiguous acres in many cases.

(John Raoux | AP) A sign for the LDS Church-owned Deseret Ranch offices in Deseret Ranch, Fla., in 2015.

A church subsidiary called AgriNorthwest recently outbid a Bill Gates-owned company with an offer of $209 million to buy Easterday ranch properties in eastern Washington out of bankruptcy proceedings. The working ranch included 12,000 acres of potato, onion and cattle lands as well as valuable water rights.

Based on acreage, agriculture makes the church one of the nation’s largest holders of farmland and ranchland — and the country’s largest nut producer, centered on expansive orchards in Northern California. Its cattle operations brand it among the largest beef suppliers to the McDonald’s restaurant chain.

Though some of the food is sold commercially, it’s unknown just how much of the production is income-generating and how much goes toward the church’s far-reaching humanitarian operations and support for members worldwide. Nor is it clear what income is generated by its commercial properties, including substantial leasing income from office and retail tenants.

 

https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2022/04/05/new-database-gives-widest/#

Edited November 30, 2023 by Calm

[Leaf474]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

Just to be clear, while some of the farming ranching land is part of the welfare arm of the Church, producing food that is canned, etc. and then available in the various Bishop Storehouses or shipped to where it is needed, these days probably most of the agricultural land owned by the Church is currently for profit operations (this is a guess on my part given the massive Deseret Ranches and the latest purchase, but I could be wrong).

https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/how-deseret-ranches-of-florida-one-of-the-largest-us-cow-calf-ranching-operations-looks-to-sustain-its-legacy

https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/sacred-island-soil-how-a-church-farm-in-hawaii-is-feeding-bodies-and-souls

https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/church-wheat-supply-provides-food-home-storage-humanitarian-efforts

This is 20 years old and likely some land has been sold and some bought, like the recent massive purchase in Wyoming discussed in another thread, but useful to understand the spread.  This also just may refer to the Welfare Farms and not the for profit land.

https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/church-helps-drought-stricken-australian-farmers

There is a claim that the Church owns at least 1.7 million acres in the US alone from a year or two ago, but I understand this is a guesstimate based on how many chapels it owns and listings that appear to be connected to the Church, that may or may not have been educated guesses.  There were known additional holdings that were not included, so unknown how accurate this is.

For farming…

https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2022/04/05/new-database-gives-widest/#

Thanks for that research ❤️ I'm thinking that church leaders must expect that land ownership records will survive - and be respected after - any coming apocalypse(s)?

[Calm]

24 minutes ago, Leaf474 said:

Thanks for that research ❤️ I'm thinking that church leaders must expect that land ownership records will survive - and be respected after - any coming apocalypse(s)?

Even if records don’t survive, in the Millennium Christ will be king, the righteous are the ones who will have survived, the Church will not be viewed as an enemy and I suspect there will be much less conflict over such things because people will be honest and respectful of others in general.

Now if there are multiple disasters and a prolonged apocalypse after economic collapse, such records might be meaningless in a might makes right society, but as Saints we believe we will be led by our leaders who will be inspired by God as well as God protecting those who seek his protection righteously (meaning plenty of nonmembers included) so whether leaders will have gathered Saints in crucial places to protect productive holdings in order to provide for those in need or even create strong communities centered around these holdings or God protects his people in miraculous ways, we anticipate surviving intact and in ways we can help God protect and serve our own people and others who seek out Zion even before the Millennium.

However, the Church has made an effort to protect records of all kinds, spending quite a bit of money to go into countries and save genealogical records for decades.  Back when I was a kid, the mountain vault those records were kept in was considered a marvel.  I still remember the picture of it in the church magazine.  We were commanded to keep a history of the Church early on, therefore the Church has quite an extensive historical document collection (the Joseph Smith Papers Project was massive, for example).  I suspect great care is exercised with other types of records as well.

https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/granite-mountain-records-vault

https://thirdhour.org/blog/faith/family-history/mountain-records-vault/

Edited November 30, 2023 by Calm

[Calm]

This is a pretty good collection of the limited beliefs the Church teaches about pre and post Second Coming.  This is the more traditional view of prophecies, which tends to be more literal in interpretation rather than viewing some of the descriptions as symbolic.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Coming_in_Mormonism

Edited December 1, 2023 by Calm

[Leaf474]

33 minutes ago, Calm said:

Even if records don’t survive, in the Millennium Christ will be king, the righteous are the ones who will have survived, the Church will not be viewed as an enemy and I suspect there will be much less conflict over such things because people will be honest and respectful of others in general.

Now if there are multiple disasters and a prolonged apocalypse after economic collapse, such records might be meaningless in a might makes right society, but as Saints we believe we will be led by our leaders who will be inspired by God as well as God protecting those who seek his protection righteously (meaning plenty of nonmembers included) so whether leaders will have gathered Saints in crucial places to protect productive holdings in order to provide for those in need or even create strong communities centered around these holdings or God protects his people in miraculous ways,

 

33 minutes ago, Calm said:

we anticipate surviving intact...

Yes, that's what I was thinking, but thanks for fleshing it out ❤️

 

33 minutes ago, Calm said:

...and in ways we can help God protect and serve our own people and others who seek out Zion even before the Millennium.

However, the Church has made an effort to protect records of all kinds, spending quite a bit of money to go into countries and save genealogical records for decades.  Back when I was a kid, the mountain vault those records were kept in was considered a marvel.  I still remember the picture of it in the church magazine.  We were commanded to keep a history of the Church early on, therefore the Church has quite an extensive historical document collection (the Joseph Smith Papers Project was massive, for example).  I suspect great care is exercised with other types of records as well.

https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/granite-mountain-records-vault

https://thirdhour.org/blog/faith/family-history/mountain-records-vault/

 

[Leaf474]

21 minutes ago, Calm said:

This is a pretty good collection of the limited beliefs the Church teaches about pre and post Second Coming.  This is the more traditional view of prophecies, which tends to be more literal in interpretation rather than viewing some of the descriptions as symbolic.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Coming_in_Mormonism

Thanks! Funny thing, I had read the below article earlier to research this topic

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apocalyptic_beliefs_among_Latter-day_Saints

[Calm]

19 minutes ago, Leaf474 said:

Thanks! Funny thing, I had read the below article earlier to research this topic

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apocalyptic_beliefs_among_Latter-day_Saints

The food storage, getting out of debt etc stuff has been pushed in the past in my experience as much for financial stability and preparation for family emergencies such as lost jobs and current natural disasters as for preparation for the Second Coming.  These days the focus is much more on current life needs than the Second Coming.  Talks about how food storage help a family survive loss of employment due to sickness or termination as well as going back to school to get a better job or even sharing with extended family or friends who had such needs are shared sometimes from the pulpit or in church magazines.

https://providentliving.churchofjesuschrist.org/food-storage?lang=eng

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/food-storage?lang=eng#title8

Samt thing with getting out of debt, getting an education, etc.  While there is anticipation of future needs as in the ‘end of times’, it is much more about living wisely and being prepared for what life can throw at you in the here and now.

Overall the wiki article created the impression for me that the premillennial trials, concerns about signs of the time, etc are a preeminent concern in the Church.  I don’t think it is for most Saints and leaders’ talks usually only refer to it in passing before focusing on more immediate needs, but there is a subset of Saints that focus heavily on this, have even gone so far as to create their own communities with hedge prophets with detailed visions on what is to come and others and at times end up getting excommunicated because they have gone to extremes.  I have no clue what the percentage is, but even if highly noticeable at times, I do believe it is a small minority.

Edited December 1, 2023 by Calm

[Leaf474]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

The food storage, getting out of debt etc stuff has been pushed in the past in my experience as much for financial stability and preparation for family emergencies such as lost jobs and current natural disasters as for preparation for the Second Coming.  These days the focus is much more on current life needs than the Second Coming.  Talks about how food storage help a family survive loss of employment due to sickness or termination as well as going back to school to get a better job or even sharing with extended family or friends who had such needs are shared sometimes from the pulpit or in church magazines.

https://providentliving.churchofjesuschrist.org/food-storage?lang=eng

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/food-storage?lang=eng#title8

Samt thing with getting out of debt, getting an education, etc.  While there is anticipation of future needs as in the ‘end of times’, it is much more about living wisely and being prepared for what life can throw at you in the here and now.

Overall the wiki article created the impression for me that the premillennial trials, concerns about signs of the time, etc are a preeminent concern in the Church.  I don’t think it is for most Saints and leaders’ talks usually only refer to it in passing before focusing on more immediate needs, but there is a subset of Saints that focus heavily on this, have even gone so far as to create their own communities with hedge prophets with detailed visions on what is to come and others and at times end up getting excommunicated because they have gone to extremes.  I have no clue what the percentage is, but even if highly noticeable at times, I do believe it is a small minority.

Thanks for your input and the articles ❤️

[Tacenda]

https://www.fox13now.com/news/local-news/local-non-profit-provides-tool-to-provide-fresh-water-all-over-the-world?fbclid=IwAR17kspqwNiraFjdvOf1x_VfeMZrEHxZaCOgjRzEsD6W_0--lZpi9dcftqI

"One little company, I’ll just shout them out, is Redmond Salt," said Anderson. "Their employees do a little $5-a-month match. Last year, we were able to put in three wells in Africa, brought clean water to 3,000 people, right from just our little hometown company here in Utah.
 
To date, over 13,500 wells are spread out across this world in 40 different countries, and the organization claims it's finishing about 3-to-4 wells a day every single day."

 

If this one family accomplished this, imagine what the church could do. I do know the church has done this, but could it do more? Or does the church do this on an ongoing basis?

 

https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/clean-water-projects#:~:text=In 2002%2C The Church of,systems or water purification systems.

[Calm]

It is still one of the major projects. 
 

https://philanthropies.churchofjesuschrist.org/humanitarian-services/funds/clean-water/

In 2014, it had already reached 4 million in just Africa, while working in over 100 countries. 
 

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/2014/05/news-of-the-church/clean-water-initiative-aids-millions-in-africa?lang=eng

 

[Calm]

https://assets.churchofjesuschrist.org/e1/cd/e1cd71b7b39511edbbe0eeeeac1eab7e44942d10/welfare_caring_for_those_in_need_2022_annual_report.pdf

156 clean water projects for 2022, it is mentioned in several places in the global initiatives section

Edited December 5, 2023 by Calm

[Tacenda]

21 minutes ago, Calm said:

https://assets.churchofjesuschrist.org/e1/cd/e1cd71b7b39511edbbe0eeeeac1eab7e44942d10/welfare_caring_for_those_in_need_2022_annual_report.pdf

156 clean water projects for 2022, it is mentioned in several places in the global initiatives section

I'm so sorry to have stolen moments from your life Calm, I was such a lazy person by not researching better. Good to know though, happy about this!

[Calm]

43 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I'm so sorry to have stolen moments from your life Calm, I was such a lazy person by not researching better. Good to know though, happy about this!

I have a lot of spare time most of my days…you are helping fill hours with interesting study rather than playing solitaire, lol

[Leaf474]

10 hours ago, Tacenda said:

https://www.fox13now.com/news/local-news/local-non-profit-provides-tool-to-provide-fresh-water-all-over-the-world?fbclid=IwAR17kspqwNiraFjdvOf1x_VfeMZrEHxZaCOgjRzEsD6W_0--lZpi9dcftqI

"One little company, I’ll just shout them out, is Redmond Salt," said Anderson. "Their employees do a little $5-a-month match. Last year, we were able to put in three wells in Africa, brought clean water to 3,000 people, right from just our little hometown company here in Utah.
 
To date, over 13,500 wells are spread out across this world in 40 different countries, and the organization claims it's finishing about 3-to-4 wells a day every single day."

 

If this one family accomplished this, imagine what the church could do. I do know the church has done this, but could it do more? Or does the church do this on an ongoing basis?

 

https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/clean-water-projects#:~:text=In 2002%2C The Church of,systems or water purification systems.

👍👍👍

[Leaf474]

10 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I'm so sorry to have stolen moments from your life Calm, I was such a lazy person by not researching better. Good to know though, happy about this!

❤️

[Tacenda]

15 hours ago, Calm said:

I have a lot of spare time most of my days…you are helping fill hours with interesting study rather than playing solitaire, lol

I appreciate that you are understanding, but I still think I'm lazy, haha.

BTW, it looks like it's part of the Light the World campaign. 

https://us.wateraid.org/give/360749/?fbclid=IwAR1ytzJlwfayHgr94RSGEabeU8Lek6x7hn6uK78efA9y2MU00ioDGKNmieY#!/donation/checkout?c_src=lds-soc&c_src2=fbp-v2