Church sued again over how it uses tithing contributions from members

[Leaf474]

53 minutes ago, Stormin' Mormon said:

All true.  Belief in Christ will be widespread (maybe universal?), but that doesn't mean that everyone will acknowledge the LDS Church as Christ's authorized agent on the earth. 

Since a terrestrial life does not require covenants, the earth's terrestrial existence (ie, the millennium) will include multitudes who are good and honorable, but have not entered into the covenant path (ie, have not received a baptism from an authorized agent of Christ).  It will only be after the millennium, when the earth enters it Celestial existence, that everyone on it will need to be living a celestial law (which does entail baptismal covenants made through authorized channels).

Edited to add this quote, from Joseph Fielding Smith:

 

 

Thanks for the input ❤️

But when Jesus returns, doesn't he begin setting up the New Jerusalem, probably on the border between Missouri and Kansas? Wouldn't that make it obvious that the LDS way was the right way?

[Leaf474]

49 minutes ago, Stormin' Mormon said:

From the Gospel Principles manual, Chapter 45:

 

 

Thanks 🙂 Is the $100 billion needed in part to make enough temples to do all those ordinances, then?

 

About the missionary work, will the internet still be around? Or will people have to be taught face to face or in small meetings? I'm just thinking that even today, a billion people can be reached by a single YouTube video.

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Leaf474 said:

Close to 2,000 years. How does that relate?

Well it wasn't very literal then was it, if you see it as happening "soon" as many scriptures imply.

Nobody knows in which generation it will happen if it has been the  "next" generation for 100 generations! 🤔

[bluebell]

2 hours ago, Leaf474 said:

Thanks for bolding those parts... I was reluctant to bring this up, but maybe it explains why my eyes missed those things... Isn't the second coming regarded as something that's going to happen very soon?

 

But the man in the interview says that there will be future downturns. If a significant downturn occurs maybe once every 20 or 30 years, and he's using the plural, then he's putting the second coming at least 40 years off... Probably more like 60 or 80. What's going on?

 

How much missionary work needs to be done at the second coming given Revelation 1:7

"Check it out! He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, including those who pierced him. All the tribes of the earth will mourn over him. Even so, Amen."

 

And continued thanks for the information ❤️

I don’t know about other Christian denominations, but with latter-day Saints “soon” is a very relative term.  So to answer your question, nothings going on. 😊

The second could easily still be 100 years or more away. I think the church’s perspective has always been to be ready for the second coming at any time, but to keep planting those symbolic cherry trees so we can keep harvesting and meet our needs in case it takes longer than expected.

Also, we very much believe that missionary work will continue into the millennium, but we also believe that there is still much missionary work to do before Christ will come again. We believe the gospel must be taken to every land in every people, and there are still many places in the world where that is impossible yet.

if you’d like to continue a discussion on missionary work and the millennium, it would probably be a good idea to start a new thread about it. 

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, Leaf474 said:

Close to 2,000 years. How does that relate?

 

Will they be baptizing for the dead after the second coming?

Absolutely!

Resurrections will be happening.

Mr. Wong who lived in China 4000 BC gets to learn of Jesus and be baptized.

"Every knee shall bow and tongue confess that Jesus is the Christ"

Missionaries will be everywhere, and it will be obvious that Christ exists as King, he and his wounds will be plainly visible, etc, not to mention other continuing spiritual phenomena

That is one purpose of the Millenium.  The belief is that the veil will be thin, with Christ as the King.

Much of that is said or implied in the quotes/links I have mentioned 

Edited November 29, 2023 by mfbukowski

[Leaf474]

24 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Well it wasn't very literal then was it, if you see it as happening "soon" as many scriptures imply.

Nobody knows in which generation it will happen if it has been the  "next" generation for 100 generations! 🤔

That's always a question with the Book of Revelation, isn't it? Literal or figurative, or parts of each.

 

As it relates the idea of how much money the church needs for missionary work at the second coming, is it a common idea among the Saints that when Jesus returns, a lot of people will be unaware of it?

 

Matthew 24:27

For as the lightning flashes from the east, and is seen even to the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be.

 

And Yes, that is in the context of "this generation will not pass away", so, similar questions to the Book of Revelation. But your specifically about people being aware of the second coming, is it possible a lot of people won't be?

[Leaf474]

34 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I don’t know about other Christian denominations, but with latter-day Saints “soon” is a very relative term.  So to answer your question, nothings going on. 😊

The second could easily still be 100 years or more away. I think the church’s perspective has always been to be ready for the second coming at any time, but to keep planting those symbolic cherry trees so we can keep harvesting and meet our needs in case it takes longer than expected.

Also, we very much believe that missionary work will continue into the millennium, but we also believe that there is still much missionary work to do before Christ will come again. We believe the gospel must be taken to every land in every people, and there are still many places in the world where that is impossible yet.

if you’d like to continue a discussion on missionary work and the millennium, it would probably be a good idea to start a new thread about it. 

This is not intended to sound mocking in any way, but is investing in the stock market planting symbolic cherry trees?

 

Thanks for the input ❤️

[bluebell]

1 minute ago, Leaf474 said:

This is not intended to sound mocking in any way, but is investing in the stock market planting symbolic cherry trees?

 

Thanks for the input ❤️

Yes I believe it is.  If we are using today's resources to plan and provide for tomorrow's needs, it seems very much like planting cherry trees to me.  

[mfbukowski]

23 minutes ago, Leaf474 said:

That's always a question with the Book of Revelation, isn't it? Literal or figurative, or parts of each.

 

As it relates the idea of how much money the church needs for missionary work at the second coming, is it a common idea among the Saints that when Jesus returns, a lot of people will be unaware of it?

 

Matthew 24:27

For as the lightning flashes from the east, and is seen even to the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be.

 

And Yes, that is in the context of "this generation will not pass away", so, similar questions to the Book of Revelation. But your specifically about people being aware of the second coming, is it possible a lot of people won't be?

No.

It is said that all will see Him coming- it supposedly will be a clear event seen worldwide, for most Christians, at least that is my impression.

But you have quoted Matthew already. (?)

If not seen personally or spiritually can you imagine the nightly news that night??

 

Edited November 29, 2023 by mfbukowski

[Leaf474]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

Absolutely!

Resurrections will be happening.

Mr. Wong who lived in China 4000 BC gets to learn of Jesus and be baptized.

"Every knee shall bow and tongue confess that Jesus is the Christ"

Missionaries will be everywhere, and it will be obvious that Christ exists as King, he and his wounds will be plainly visible, etc, not to mention other continuing spiritual phenomena

That is one purpose of the Millenium.  The belief is that the veil will be thin, with Christ as the King.

Much of that is said or implied in the quotes/links I have mentioned 

Well, not to get nitpicky, but if the person is resurrected, does that count as being baptized for the dead? Or are only some people resurrected, and there will need to be baptisms for those who haven't been resurrected yet?

 

Anyways, having seen baptisms for the dead being done, it looks like they can be done pretty quickly. Will they be a major expense at the second coming?

[bluebell]

28 minutes ago, Leaf474 said:

Well, not to get nitpicky, but if the person is resurrected, does that count as being baptized for the dead? Or are only some people resurrected, and there will need to be baptisms for those who haven't been resurrected yet?

 

Anyways, having seen baptisms for the dead being done, it looks like they can be done pretty quickly. Will they be a major expense at the second coming?

We believe there are several resurrection periods and not all people will be resurrected at once.  Can I ask where you saw baptisms for the dead being done, since they are done in temples and only members with temple recommends are able to view or perform them?

(the cost is really the cost of the temples and genealogy work, not each baptism.  The real issue is in the time commitment, which we expect to last throughout the millennium since we are talking about billions and billions of people).

[Leaf474]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

No.

It is said that all will see Him coming- it supposedly will be a clear event seen worldwide, for most Christians,

Just Christians?

 

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

...at least that is my impression.

 

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

But you have quoted Matthew already. (?)

Earlier, I was quoting Revelation, the part about every eye seeing him?

 

Matthew was about how no one will need to tell you that Jesus has come, so if you hear that he's out there in the wilderness, they no attention.

 

Is that what you're asking about, with the question mark?

 

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

If not seen personally or spiritually can you imagine the nightly news that night??

 

[Leaf474]

38 minutes ago, bluebell said:

We believe there are several resurrection periods and not all people will be resurrected at once.

 

38 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Can I ask where you saw baptisms for the dead being done, since they are done in temples and only members with temple recommends are able to view or perform them?

Sure, it was a hidden cam video on YouTube. I understand that there's always a question with those videos as to whether they have been staged or in some way edited to give the wrong impression.

 

As I understand the rules here on MDDB, we can't talk about details. If you'd like to meet me another platform - Mastodon or reddit, for example - I'll be glad to PM you how to find me there 🙂

 

38 minutes ago, bluebell said:

(the cost is really the cost of the temples and genealogy work, not each baptism.  The real issue is in the time commitment, which we expect to last throughout the millennium since we are talking about billions and billions of people).

Thanks for your information ❤️

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Leaf474 said:

Well, not to get nitpicky, but if the person is resurrected, does that count as being baptized for the dead? Or are only some people resurrected, and there will need to be baptisms for those who haven't been resurrected yet?

 

Anyways, having seen baptisms for the dead being done, it looks like they can be done pretty quickly. Will they be a major expense at the second coming?

This I think misunderstands what baptism for the dead is, but that is a long story that I can't take on right now.

"Expenses" are that it is done in an expensive physical building, a temple, and yes of late, we have been building them all over the world.  

But the actual baptism is done by proxy- a living person is baptized FOR,  and under the name of the deceased. There are NO expenses for the baptism itself. Some churches get paid for sacraments, we don't EVER do that

So yes, I suppose another reason we need a big bank account is for building temples, which is going on now, and which will survive the destructions of the second coming.

So in a sense, that may be seen as a real and present preparation we are doing now in anticipation of their use both now and later.

Edited November 29, 2023 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

16 minutes ago, Leaf474 said:

Just Christians?

 

 

Earlier, I was quoting Revelation, the part about every eye seeing him?

 

Matthew was about how no one will need to tell you that Jesus has come, so if you hear that he's out there in the wilderness, they no attention.

 

Is that what you're asking about, with the question mark?

 

 

Yes it was a joke. ALL will see him as scripture says.

Edited November 29, 2023 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

@Leaf474

You made me think of something.

Our present Prophet Nelson stresses the "gathering of Israel", a pre-second coming activity ( missionary work) AND is building many temples.

PERHAPS he thinks/ knows what will happen soon?

Just my speculation!

So yes, building temples, and buying land are investments moving away from stocks toward tangible assets, both of which will be ESSENTIAL in and after the Millenium begins, and a massive economic meltdown happens.

Paper money will be just that- paper in a firestorm. (figuratively)

 

Edited November 29, 2023 by mfbukowski

[bluebell]

21 minutes ago, Leaf474 said:

 

Sure, it was a hidden cam video on YouTube. I understand that there's always a question with those videos as to whether they have been staged or in some way edited to give the wrong impression.

 

As I understand the rules here on MDDB, we can't talk about details. If you'd like to meet me another platform - Mastodon or reddit, for example - I'll be glad to PM you how to find me there 🙂

 

Thanks for your information ❤️

No, I don't need to know anything else.  I'm aware that there are unscrupulous people out there who make such videos for a willing audience.  Thanks though.

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

(the cost is really the cost of the temples and genealogy work, not each baptism. 

Nailed it

I guess in a sense baptisms ARE an "expense,"!!

[Leaf474]

6 minutes ago, bluebell said:

No, I don't need to know anything else.  I'm aware that there are unscrupulous people out there who make such videos for a willing audience.  Thanks though.

Well... There are at least some ex-LDS who are still good moral people, I believe. I suspect that YouTube comment sections or other things online would contain corrections by these people.

 

Kind of like if one person says that Jehovah's Witnesses sometimes fudge their publisher reports when they go door to door, that's one thing. But if a bunch of people are saying it, it's probably true.

 

But I'm fine not talking about it anymore, if you wish 🙂

[mfbukowski]

12 minutes ago, Leaf474 said:

But I'm fine not talking about it anymore, if you wish 🙂

Please also understand that much of this is highly sacred, and personal, and even speaking about in economic or worldly terms feels quite uncomfortable.

It objectifies sacred experiences a bit.

But let's stay on it, your way! It's important for you to learn the way you think!

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, Leaf474 said:

Well... There are at least some ex-LDS who are still good moral people, I believe. I suspect that YouTube comment sections or other things online would contain corrections by these people.

 

Kind of like if one person says that Jehovah's Witnesses sometimes fudge their publisher reports when they go door to door, that's one thing. But if a bunch of people are saying it, it's probably true.

 

But I'm fine not talking about it anymore, if you wish 🙂

Plenty of them are very moral.  In my opinion, not the ones who lie and film temple content though.

(To clarify, these people are unscrupulous and dishonest because a person has to lie and deceive in order to film temple ordinances.)

Corrections of what?  I’m not sure what you mean by that.

Edited November 29, 2023 by bluebell

[Leaf474]

2 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Please also understand that much of this is highly sacred, and personal, and even speaking about in economic or worldly terms feels quite uncomfortable.

It objectifies sacred experiences a bit.

But let's stay on it, your way! It's important for you to learn the way you think!

Sure, if you wish ❤️

The OP presents the idea that someone is sueing the Church, which I believe led us to the question of what is the proper use of Church funds, especially the $100 billion currently invested. One answer is that the Church has to have a lot of temples, which are expensive to build and maintain, in order to perform lots of baptisms for the dead at the second coming.

 

Two questions:

Why do baptisms for the dead have to be done in temples? It looks like baptisms for the living can be done anywhere; John the Baptist was baptizing in the Jordan.

 

If temples are required, why do they have to be expensive? As I read the Bible account, God was happy living in a tent.

[Leaf474]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

Plenty of them are very moral.  In my opinion, not the ones who lie and film temple content though.

(To clarify, these people are unscrupulous and dishonest because a person has to lie and deceive in order to film temple ordinances.)

Corrections of what?  I’m not sure what you mean by that.

Corrections of the allegedly staged or selectively edited hidden cam videos. Ex-LDS who are still good moral people would, I assume, want the church to be criticized fairly. While they may be no longer supporting the Church, neither would they want it to be portrayed unfairly, since they are good moral people.

 

One would expect, then, to find corrections from them in the comment sections of these YouTube videos. Maybe something like, "No, that's not what it's actually like."

[bluebell]

42 minutes ago, Leaf474 said:

Corrections of the allegedly staged or selectively edited hidden cam videos. Ex-LDS who are still good moral people would, I assume, want the church to be criticized fairly. While they may be no longer supporting the Church, neither would they want it to be portrayed unfairly, since they are good moral people.

 

One would expect, then, to find corrections from them in the comment sections of these YouTube videos. Maybe something like, "No, that's not what it's actually like."

Who has alleged anything being staged or selectively edited?

[Leaf474]

4 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Who has alleged anything being staged or selectively edited?

Well, no one has stated that... But if the videos are giving an accurate portrayal, baptisms for the dead can be done fairly quickly.