Church sued again over how it uses tithing contributions from members

[pogi]

4 hours ago, bluebell said:

Analytics (and I think some others but I don't remember where) stated that the church is likely using 90% of its tithes to run it's yearly operations (which makes sense because tithing is what keeps the lights on in the buildings and pays for the construction of multiple temples every year and that kind of stuff). 

If that's accurate then we are talking about what to do with the other 10%.  On it's own I'm not sure that that can be described as "more than can reasonably be distributed".  But the money that results in the investment of that 10% could likely be described that way, if some were calling for it's distribution (and some are).

41 minutes ago, Calm said:

If it is taking 90% of tithing to run its current yearly operations, my guess is expanding into new areas such as Africa and Asia and continuing to grow in Latin America could end up taking up the rest of the 10% and then some.

I think the numbers are likely closer to what are being reported by the widow's mite report:

https://widowsmitereport.wordpress.com/2022flow/

5.6 B income from tithing annually.

1.1 -1.2 B of that goes to the EP fund.

That is nearly 20%, or 1/5 of total tithing income that is going to savings/investment and multiplying astronomically beyond what could reasonably be utilized.   It sounds like that has historically been a fixed rate that the church is setting aside and investing, regardless of growth.  They have lived within their means at 80% of tithing income, regardless of growth or total income.  

To put that in perspective, that is a little under what we are currently spending on total temple/chapel construction, utilities, and maintenance annually.  

With increased growth comes increased income from tithing as well, that needs to be accounted for.   In developing countries that increase will be less than in developing countries, but the expenses for construction/maintenance etc. will be much less in developing countries as well and would likely off-set each other.  

One of the chapels in one of my areas in the Philippines was literally a bamboo structure with thatch roof and dirt floor. 

 

 

[bluebell]

11 minutes ago, pogi said:

I think the numbers are likely closer to what are being reported by the widow's mite report:

https://widowsmitereport.wordpress.com/2022flow/

5.6 B income from tithing annually.

1.1 -1.2 B of that goes to the EP fund.

That is nearly 20%, or 1/5 of total tithing income that is going to savings/investment and multiplying astronomically beyond what could reasonably be utilized.   It sounds like that has historically been a fixed rate that the church is setting aside and investing, regardless of growth.  They have lived within their means at 80% of tithing income, regardless of growth or total income.  

To put that in perspective, that is a little under what we are currently spending on total temple/chapel construction, utilities, and maintenance annually.  

With increased growth comes increased income from tithing as well, that needs to be accounted for.   In developing countries that increase will be less than in developing countries, but the expenses for construction/maintenance etc. will be much less in developing countries as well and would likely off-set each other.  

One of the chapels in one of my areas in the Philippines was literally a bamboo structure with thatch roof and dirt floor. 

 

 

Maybe.

For the bolded statement, was that a while ago?

[Calm]

11 minutes ago, pogi said:

think the numbers are likely closer to what are being reported by the widow's mite report:

 

Why?

[bluebell]

2 hours ago, Leaf474 said:

Thanks ❤️ Is the 100 billion I hear sometimes the result of the 10% leftover each year?

If I understand correctly it's the result of investments of extra tithing and other moneys over many decades.

Quote

 

This may sound critical, but I'm really just trying to get information. Someone mentioned earlier, I think, that their ward collected about $350,000 to $400,000 per year.

 

Let's use 360,000 because that's easy to divide up into 30,000 a month. The bishops and other leaders at the ward level are volunteers - as I understand it - and there's no property tax, so what's left would be mostly utilities and any mortgage on the building. I don't think that would be close to $30,000 a month, so quite a bit would be left over, it looks like.

 

As I understand it tithing money is sent to church headquarters and is not handled by the ward, other than when cash tithing has to be deposited in the bank.  The bills are not handled locally.  I also don't believe that our buildings have mortgages.  The church doesn't carry loans on their property, they pay for it all outright before it is built.

Beyond that I can't really speak to Teancum's numbers.  I don't doubt them for his ward when he was a bishop but I don't know that that can be extrapolated as an average or not.

Quote

Is the idea that the Saints believe that the Church is true, and the Church says to give 10%, and that's really all there is to it?

No, we believe that God says to give 10%.  Here's an article that explains it.   

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/liahona/2022/12/10-why-we-pay-tithing?lang=eng

 

[pogi]

13 minutes ago, Calm said:

Why?

For one, it is not just a random guess.  It seems to be the most comprehensive and reasonable analysis that I can find available with a pretty extensive list of references.  List of sources:

https://widowsmitereport.wordpress.com/sources/

From their site:

Quote

 

Through an increasingly crowdsourced effort, we seek to compile, link, reconcile and analyze all known sources of Church financial information and then present that information in a format that is easy to understand.

All of our reports are intended to be as verifiable as possible by relying only on public information. Every estimate in our reports is reviewed for reasonableness by experienced finance professionals. The project has benefitted from many anonymous thoughtful & skilled contributors.

What if I see an error or know about a public source you missed?

Please reach out. No critical analysis is too small or harsh to be considered for revisions. Every overlooked source will be carefully evaluated and reconciled. Models & reports will be updated accordingly, where appropriate, and the new links or references will be added to our list of sources.

 

If anyone knows of a more comprehensive, referenced and detailed analyses, I'd be happy to see it. 
 

[bluebell]

2 hours ago, Leaf474 said:

That's true, however, it's not clear whether Abraham was giving a tenth of his increase (the spoils of war) or his total assets, which is a very different idea of what we think of tithing today.

True, but that's not exactly different than what we consider tithing today.  Christians still discussion what paying a full tithe looks like and they often disagree.  Members of the church often quibble between themselves on whether one should pay on gross or net, for example.  Regardless of what they decide they would still be considered full tithe payers by the church.   

Quote

 

That's true for the time of Abraham. According to the law of Moses,

Numbers 18:21

“To the children of Levi, behold, I have given all the tithe in Israel for an inheritance, in return for their service which they serve, even the service of the Tent of Meeting.

 

Can you explain what you mean?  Abraham was dead long before there were any children of Levi.  

Quote

Definitely! If one looks at their reasoning, it's usually tied to the law of Moses.

Which is very odd since people paid tithing long before the law of Moses existed.

Quote

The remaining three are from Hebrews 7, which appears to be talking about how Melchizedek was a greater priest than Aaron. Thus, Jesus being a priest according to the order of Melchizedek is greater than the levitical priests.

Jesus being a priest according to the order of Melchizedek rather than Melchizedek being a priest after the order of the Son of God is an interpretation I don't think I've heard of before.

Quote

Great discussion, by the way ❤️

 

Edited November 21, 2023 by bluebell

[pogi]

28 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Maybe.

For the bolded statement, was that a while ago?

That was 20 years ago.  But I have contacted more recent missionaries who have served there and have confirmed that the same chapel was being used as of a couple years ago.   It was in a really remote jungle location with no roads.  Only single-track walking/hiking trails.  The church has since discouraged proselytizing in such remote and distant locations, but there are still active members who attend. 

[bluebell]

1 minute ago, pogi said:

That was 20 years ago.  But I have contacted more recent missionaries who have served there and have confirmed that the same chapel was being used as of a couple years ago.   It was in a really remote jungle location with no roads.  Only single-track walking/hiking trails.  The church has since discouraged proselytizing in such remote and distant locations, but there are still active members who attend. 

That would make sense why the building would need to be able to be built without heavy machinery.

[pogi]

4 minutes ago, bluebell said:

That would make sense why the building would need to be able to be built without heavy machinery.

Yep.  The chapels in the larger cities were not much to write home about either though.  Basic cinderblock construction with tin roofs.  They are going to try and match their surroundings no matter where they build.  So, in developing countries growth and construction is really cheap with basic structures and cheap labor and materials. 

[bluebell]

2 hours ago, Leaf474 said:

Not to belabor this part, but tithing is a matter of the law of Moses / Old Testament - which of course, is all Jesus and the scribes had at the time.

I agree it is a matter of the OT, including continuing to exist after the Law of Moses was implemented.  And I agree that it is nowhere explicitly taught in the New Testament (though it is not explicitly taught as having been fulfilled with the Law of Moses either). 

For Latter-day saints it's also a matter of the restoration and revelation. 

D&C 119's preface says:

Revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Far West, Missouri, July 8, 1838, in answer to his supplication: “O Lord! Show unto thy servants how much thou requirest of the properties of thy people for a tithing.” The law of tithing, as understood today, had not been given to the Church previous to this revelation. The term tithing in the prayer just quoted and in previous revelations (64:23; 85:3; 97:11) had meant not just one-tenth, but all free-will offerings, or contributions, to the Church funds. The Lord had previously given to the Church the law of consecration and stewardship of property, which members (chiefly the leading elders) entered into by a covenant that was to be everlasting. Because of failure on the part of many to abide by this covenant, the Lord withdrew it for a time and gave instead the law of tithing to the whole Church. The Prophet asked the Lord how much of their property He required for sacred purposes. The answer was this revelation.

1 Verily, thus saith the Lord, I require all their surplus property to be put into the hands of the bishop of my church in Zion, 2 For the building of mine house, and for the laying of the foundation of Zion and for the priesthood, and for the debts of the Presidency of my Church. 3 And this shall be the beginning of the tithing of my people. 4 And after that, those who have thus been tithed shall pay one-tenth of all their interest annually; and this shall be a standing law unto them forever, for my holy priesthood, saith the Lord.

 

[bluebell]

7 minutes ago, pogi said:

Yep.  The chapels in the larger cities were not much to write home about either though.  Basic cinderblock construction with tin roofs.  They are going to try and match their surroundings no matter where they build.  So, in developing countries growth and construction is really cheap with basic structures and cheap labor and materials. 

That also makes sense.

[bluebell]

@Leaf474

You've probably already read this but in case you missed it, it provides some more information (it's from 2020).

https://www.deseret.com/faith/2020/2/14/21133740/mormon-church-finances-billions-presiding-bishopric-ensign-peak-tithing-donations-byu-real-estate

[Teancum]

On 11/18/2023 at 3:59 PM, Rain said:

Do you mind if I reccomend a couple? I understand if you don't go with them.

Casa Alitas , which I talked about above is in Tucson.

Catholic Charities Refugee Services in Phoenix.

Thank you!

[helix]

1 hour ago, pogi said:

5.6 B income from tithing annually.

Just chiming in that I take Widows Mite with a grain of salt. The authors have a clear bent against the church, they routinely and openly refuse to cite their sources, they routinely estimate without any justification why, and the few times they do justify their estimate they often make bizarre low-ball justifications. Out of all the estimations I've seen from various folks, theirs is the lowest. (Which appears to be by design, in my opinion.) They want to present an aura of professionalism, but their methdology is an amateur hack job.

A better methodology is to use the last known public figures and extrapolate forward in time. If we do that, we're more than double the Widows Mite estimate. This paper describes that process: https://journal.interpreterfoundation.org/through-a-glass-darkly-examining-church-finances/. They conclude an estimate of $12 billion in 2010.

Edited November 22, 2023 by helix

[mfbukowski]

6 hours ago, InCognitus said:

I was a "facilitator" for two different self reliance groups a few years ago (using the church's self reliance programs), and one of the topics I was assigned to facilitate was the one on "Starting and Growing My Business".

The manual for Starting and Growing My Business helps people sort out how to distinguish what is relevant for tithing and what is not.  This comes from page 124 of the PDF:

This sets the stage for how to know how tithing should be calculated, from page 125 of the PDF:

This is basic accounting, and I like that the church's resource makes this clear.   But by using these instructions, those who own their own businesses really don't pay tithing any differently than any other employee.

Great advice- been doing this and, you have to have balance between God and the world, I do my spiritual check mentioned earlier after the  numbers are done. It becomes even more important if you have a corporation- you NEVER MIX FUNDS between a Corp or personal money; that can cause the Corp Liabilities to become personal liabilities.  As you are starting up, SPIRITUALLY perhaps you do it as I suggested, but that does not work as your business grows  because there are other considerations that take over.

Watch every detail your accountant does- I have found errors they have made, because you have used them because they are ward friends, etc.

But spiritually it is between you and the Lord only.  You gotta be honest BOTH between Caesar AND God, or you don't understand the plan.

Again it is Pragmatism leading to a peaceful life.

 

Edited November 22, 2023 by mfbukowski

[bluebell]

4 hours ago, Leaf474 said:

Tithing is not instructed in the New Testament.

I forgot to add that one reason tithing might not be mentioned in the Christian churches of the NT could be because they were living a type of consecration rather than the law of tithing.  We see this implied in the story of Ananias and Sapphira. 

Edited November 22, 2023 by bluebell

[Calm]

1 hour ago, helix said:

they routinely and openly refuse to cite their sources, t

Are you sure it is the same site?  I thought they said all sources had to be publicly available, etc.  It doesn’t sound like the same site.

[SeekingUnderstanding]

1 hour ago, helix said:

A better methodology is to use the last known public figures and extrapolate forward in time.

Why is that better? When was the last known public figures? 1960? 60+ years ago?

[Calm]

21 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Why is that better? When was the last known public figures? 1960? 60+ years ago?

Quote

I applaud Quinn’s efforts, but my concerns involve his method and assumptions for estimating tithing receipts 1960 to 2010. Quinn used published Church data from 1950 to 1960 (121) to derive a 12.9 percent annual growth in tithing. He then applies that number to estimate Church tithing receipts from 1960 to 2010. Changes in tithing collections are a function of several variables: the annual rate of change in nominal income; the rate of change in prices (inflation), membership growth; age profiles among youth, wage-earning adults, and the elderly; and changes in voluntary compliance among members.

His calculation of a 12.9 percent growth in tithing receipts during the 1950s resulted primarily from a 5‒6 percent annual growth in  [Page 130]nominal income per capita (of which almost 2 percent was due to inflation), and about 4.2 percent growth in membership during the 1950s,13 therefore requiring only 2 percent either from increases in adult population or greater commitment to the payment of tithes.

Projecting the next 50 years based on that early decade of the 1950s involves major assumptions. During each subsequent decade, major changes took place, some of which favored Quinn’s 12.9 percent assumption, while others would bring it into question. For example, in the decade of the 1960s, membership was growing by almost 7 percent. Therefore, it would have taken small changes in inflation or income for tithing to have grown by 12.9 percent. Similarly, during the 1970s and 1980s, substantial growth of tithing was attainable but for very different reasons. Inflation almost tripled to over 6.5 percent per year, thereby requiring only small increases in income and membership for tithing to grow by 12.9 percent per year.

However, during the 20 years from 1990‒2010, inflation averaged only 2.5 percent, and growth in Church membership was falling from 6 to 4 and then to 2 percent per year. In fact, in 2016, the growth rate in membership dropped to 1.59 percent, the lowest percentage growth since 1937.14 Also, working against rapid growth in tithing receipts is the increasing proportion of members living in lower-income countries, the long trend of declining birth rates and the aging of populations.

The effect of “voluntary compliance” is the unknown in all these calculations. Quinn shows a doubling of tithing paid per capita from 1950 to 1960 (141), but this includes the income effect as well as possible increases in voluntary payments. Since we do not know the direction or amount of any change in compliance, it is best to assume that it has been constant.

Therefore, given what we know regarding the declining rates of membership, inflation, and income, it is possible that the growth rate in tithing donations fell from Quinn’s 12.9 to 8 percent 30 years later (1990‒1999) and perhaps as low as 6 percent during the next 11 years (2000‒2010). If those lower rates of tithing receipts are accurate, they [Page 131]imply that tithing in 2010 may have been closer to $12 billion rather than $33 billion.15 Such a conclusion has considerable implications for several of Quinn’s results in his Chapter 3 on Church finances.

 

[helix]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

Are you sure it is the same site?  I thought they said all sources had to be publicly available, etc.  It doesn’t sound like the same site.

Proper citations give some kind of superscript or square bracket numerical indicator. You can then look at the bottom of that page, or look at the end of the report, to link up exactly what that refers to. If liberty is taken with estimates, the footnotes should explain the why liberties were taken.

Instead, this often what you get: https://widowsmitereport.wordpress.com/sources/

Look at that link above. It's literally just a link dump. I can't read any of their analyses and figure out what source they refer to. It's like pointing to a town library and saying "That's my sources". 

That's if you're lucky. Often they don't even list the resource anywhere, they just assert something with no reference. I've gone after one of the contributors before for asserting something unreferenced. The contributor went back and added another URL to the bottom of that sources and insisted that was good enough, because now it's sourced. How frustratingly amateur.

Sometimes they do provide a bit more detail, but they leave out critical information. For example, they will provide an estimate, then divide that estimate in half, then run with that number. But they never argue or explain why they just cut a number in half. I talk about it more here: https://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/75311-irs-whistleblower-david-a-nielsen-to-appear-on-60-minutes/?do=findComment&comment=1210149003

 

[Calm]

7 minutes ago, helix said:

Proper citations give some kind of superscript or square bracket numerical indicator. You can then look at the bottom of that page, or look at the end of the report, to link up exactly what that refers to. If liberty is taken with estimates, the footnotes should explain the why liberties were taken.

Instead, this often what you get: https://widowsmitereport.wordpress.com/sources/

Look at that link above. It's literally just a link dump. I can't read any of their analyses and figure out what source they refer to. It's like pointing to a town library and saying "That's my sources". 

That's if you're lucky. Often they don't even list the resource anywhere, they just assert something with no reference. I've gone after one of the contributors before for asserting something unreferenced. The contributor went back and added another URL to the bottom of that sources and insisted that was good enough, because now it's sourced. How frustratingly amateur.

Sometimes they do provide a bit more detail, but they leave out critical information. For example, they will provide an estimate, then divide that estimate in half, then run with that number. But they never argue or explain why they just cut a number in half. I talk about it more here: https://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/75311-irs-whistleblower-david-a-nielsen-to-appear-on-60-minutes/?do=findComment&comment=1210149003

 

I agree, that is very problematic for an analytical report.

I assumed if they went to the trouble of listing sources, they would footnote them and provide methodology. Without that it might as well be me putting up references, lol.

Edited November 22, 2023 by Calm

[Tacenda]

4 hours ago, bluebell said:

I agree it is a matter of the OT, including continuing to exist after the Law of Moses was implemented.  And I agree that it is nowhere explicitly taught in the New Testament (though it is not explicitly taught as having been fulfilled with the Law of Moses either). 

For Latter-day saints it's also a matter of the restoration and revelation. 

D&C 119's preface says:

Revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Far West, Missouri, July 8, 1838, in answer to his supplication: “O Lord! Show unto thy servants how much thou requirest of the properties of thy people for a tithing.” The law of tithing, as understood today, had not been given to the Church previous to this revelation. The term tithing in the prayer just quoted and in previous revelations (64:23; 85:3; 97:11) had meant not just one-tenth, but all free-will offerings, or contributions, to the Church funds. The Lord had previously given to the Church the law of consecration and stewardship of property, which members (chiefly the leading elders) entered into by a covenant that was to be everlasting. Because of failure on the part of many to abide by this covenant, the Lord withdrew it for a time and gave instead the law of tithing to the whole Church. The Prophet asked the Lord how much of their property He required for sacred purposes. The answer was this revelation.

1 Verily, thus saith the Lord, I require all their surplus property to be put into the hands of the bishop of my church in Zion, 2 For the building of mine house, and for the laying of the foundation of Zion and for the priesthood, and for the debts of the Presidency of my Church. 3 And this shall be the beginning of the tithing of my people. 4 And after that, those who have thus been tithed shall pay one-tenth of all their interest annually; and this shall be a standing law unto them forever, for my holy priesthood, saith the Lord.

 

If only it stuck with this wording, because I'm skeptical if interest is income. But set me straight if wrong. I'm sure someone has done this in the past, but I have a poor memory.

 

My people … shall pay one-tenth of all their interest annually; and this shall be a standing law unto them forever” (Doctrine and Covenants 119:3–4). Interest is understood to mean income. Your tithes are holy to the Lord, and you honor Him by paying tithing.

[Leaf474]

15 hours ago, ksfisher said:

Members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints believe that the church today is led by prophets and apostles who speak with and for the Lord.  We believe that the Lord reveals his will to prophets, apostles, as well as local leaders and individuals.  In that regard it doesn't really matter is the bible commands members of the church to pay tithing.  The bible is not the source or commandment or revelation, it is the Lord himself.

What do the prophets and apostles today say is the destination of the tithe? What is it to be used for?

[Leaf474]

14 hours ago, bluebell said:

If I understand correctly it's the result of investments of extra tithing and other moneys over many decades.

As I understand it tithing money is sent to church headquarters and is not handled by the ward, other than when cash tithing has to be deposited in the bank.  The bills are not handled locally.  I also don't believe that our buildings have mortgages.  The church doesn't carry loans on their property, they pay for it all outright before it is built.

Beyond that I can't really speak to Teancum's numbers.  I don't doubt them for his ward when he was a bishop but I don't know that that can be extrapolated as an average or not.

Very interesting, thank you ❤️

 

14 hours ago, bluebell said:

No, we believe that God says to give 10%.  Here's an article that explains it.   

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/liahona/2022/12/10-why-we-pay-tithing?lang=eng

Thanks for the article. Most people assume the Bible talks about giving a tenth of your income to your local church. It doesn't actually say that. (I'm guessing the idea came out of the Reformation.) We can talk in detail about the Bible passages if you wish, but just as an example, the Israelites were to bring a tenth of their grain harvest and every tenth animal to the Tabernacle / Temple. An Israelite blacksmith would not have paid any tithes.

 

I see that the article doesn't talk about giving the tithes to the poor, so maybe that idea wouldn't fit after all.

 

The 100 billion that I'm hearing about, did the Church leaders prayerfully decide to invest that in the stock market? That sounds like I'm mocking, but I'm trying not to. I can't think of any non-mocking way to ask that 🙂

[Tacenda]

12 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Why is that better? When was the last known public figures? 1960? 60+ years ago?

It'd be nice if the church would provide numbers so Widow's Mite doesn't have to. And if they get it wrong we could compare it to the church's stats.