Church sued again over how it uses tithing contributions from members

[Teancum]

4 hours ago, Leaf474 said:

 

I've read only a few posts on this thread, but this thought came to my mind about giving away big $$$.

 

I wouldn't know where to give a billion dollars, which charity could handle it. But I can find a way to give away $1,000, probably even 10,000.

Well they don't need to give $1 billion to one organization.

4 hours ago, Leaf474 said:

 

So one answer is to send the excess back to the local wards, and let them distribute it locally.

Interesting idea.

[Leaf474]

3 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Well they don't need to give $1 billion to one organization.

Exactly!

 

3 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Interesting idea.

 

[Teancum]

23 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

o, consider donating to a Catholic charity. The charity watch ratings are high, the financials are transparent, and they serve all regardless of religious affiliation. (I certainly don't mean to donate to a Catholic charity instead of LDS, but if you're looking for a place to give more, it's not a bad choice).

I will do so.  I do a large % of my annual donations at the end of the year.  I can do this because a large bulk of my income comes at the end of the calendar year,  after the firm closes its books (We have a September year end).  Do you have a few specific Catholic charities you would recommend so I can look them over?

[Teancum]

On 11/17/2023 at 1:56 PM, Tacenda said:

That is good to know! How about the budgets in your ward, are members spending their own money for functions? Because it seems a big portion of tithes go back to headquarters. I remember doing that and my husband, paying out of pocket because of ward budgets. Hoping the budgets are better now. Sure members can donate time and money, but sometimes it seems the church doesn't do enough in this instance. But I'm sure, like bluebell and others, I will be set straight. Not meaning in a bad way though. I just feel like no matter what I say or others say, the church will always be given the benefit of always being right. I just don't believe that's the church that was put in place at the beginning of it's existence, I think the consensus of the membership had more say on how money is spent, IMHO. 

When I was a bishop our ward collected around $350 to $400k annually.  We received around $15k back for our annual ward budget. But as I am sure you know, all bills for managing the building, utilities, cost of the building and so on>  And we were in a brand new magnificent LDS stake center that had a lot of added extras because it became the new Stake Center for the Palmyra NY stake. And it also housed only one ward, the Palmyra ward.  So that was a pretty large outlay for the church.  How much of the tithes from our ward went out to fund other activities of the church as well as how much of the was "excess" and went into EPA, well who knows.  We were able to run our ward activities quite well with $15k per year and think we had good programs and activites.

[Rain]

1 hour ago, Teancum said:

I will do so.  I do a large % of my annual donations at the end of the year.  I can do this because a large bulk of my income comes at the end of the calendar year,  after the firm closes its books (We have a September year end).  Do you have a few specific Catholic charities you would recommend so I can look them over?

Do you mind if I reccomend a couple? I understand if you don't go with them.

Casa Alitas , which I talked about above is in Tucson.

Catholic Charities Refugee Services in Phoenix.

[Rain]

4 hours ago, Leaf474 said:

Awesome! So for those who are math inclined:

Let's take the 17 million Saints, and assume that about a fifth of them have an active Temple recommend at any given time. (I'm using Temple recommend here because I think we could reasonably assume that they would be considered to be people of good moral character.)

 

So a fifth of 17, well let's go with 3 million.

 

Give each of those three million $1,000, 10,000, whatever they think they could handle to distribute to local charity organizations or just plain homeless people.

 

Repeat that every few months, or whatever seems reasonable for the people involved.

 

I don't think it would go through 100 billion in a year, but it would start making a serious dent. imo.

I think an easier way would "every few months" have people give their tithing money to a charitable cause and then those particular months the invested money would pay for all the things tithing would normally pay for. Then the ward doesn't need to worry about 100s of extra money transactions. It would also work better where $1000/$10,000 might be a real concern - "it's mormon charity month again. They might have lots of cash on them!"

There might be a concern that those charities in wealthier areas might benefit more, but a list of rotating charities around the world could be provided. 

[Leaf474]

8 minutes ago, Rain said:

I think an easier way would "every few months" have people give their tithing money to a charitable cause and then those particular months the invested money would pay for all the things tithing would normally pay for. Then the ward doesn't need to worry about 100s of extra money transactions. It would also work better where $1000/$10,000 might be a real concern - "it's mormon charity month again. They might have lots of cash on them!"

There might be a concern that those charities in wealthier areas might benefit more, but a list of rotating charities around the world could be provided. 

Awesome idea!

[bluebell]

25 minutes ago, Rain said:

I think an easier way would "every few months" have people give their tithing money to a charitable cause and then those particular months the invested money would pay for all the things tithing would normally pay for. Then the ward doesn't need to worry about 100s of extra money transactions. It would also work better where $1000/$10,000 might be a real concern - "it's mormon charity month again. They might have lots of cash on them!"

There might be a concern that those charities in wealthier areas might benefit more, but a list of rotating charities around the world could be provided. 

It’s an intriguing idea.

I think I might struggle because for me tithing money is the Lord’s money and giving it to a charity wouldn’t feel like tithing to me. It would feel like an offering (which I do see as different than tithing).  And like something I could skip that month if money was tight, unlike my view of tithing.

But my struggles with the idea doesn’t mean it’s a bad one. Just my initial thoughts about it off the top of my head.

[MiserereNobis]

4 hours ago, Teancum said:

I will do so.  I do a large % of my annual donations at the end of the year.  I can do this because a large bulk of my income comes at the end of the calendar year,  after the firm closes its books (We have a September year end).  Do you have a few specific Catholic charities you would recommend so I can look them over?

One cool thing about Catholic charities is there are huge networks, so you can poke around and look at various locations and then the services they offer. It doesn't take much time and then it can match what you'd like to accomplish with your donation.

Here is the website for Catholic charities in the US. This link can take you to your local Catholic charity website and then you can see what they offer and what you'd like to support:

https://www.catholiccharitiesusa.org/find-help/

If you are looking to help internationally, Catholic Relief Services is the way to go. They have the top rating from Charity Watch and do a lot of good. Here's their website:

https://www.crs.org

One charity I personally donate to is the St. Francis Leprosy Guild. It is based in the UK but works throughout the world. When I first looked into Catholicism, I was interested in St. Francis and read a biography about him. He was very much into helping people suffering from leprosy. At the time, I was surprised to find out that it's still an issue worldwide. I also like the immediate connection to the healings done by Jesus.

https://www.stfrancisleprosy.org

 

 

 

[Calm]

6 hours ago, Leaf474 said:

Give each of those three million $1,000, 10,000, whatever they think they could handle to distribute to local charity organizations or just plain homeless people.

Homeless people are often homeless because they have difficulty managing money, so probably best not to hand over the money directly to them, especially since this could make them a target once the effort becomes known.

[Rain]

2 hours ago, bluebell said:

It’s an intriguing idea.

I think I might struggle because for me tithing money is the Lord’s money and giving it to a charity wouldn’t feel like tithing to me. It would feel like an offering (which I do see as different than tithing).  And like something I could skip that month if money was tight, unlike my view of tithing.

But my struggles with the idea doesn’t mean it’s a bad one. Just my initial thoughts about it off the top of my head.

I can see that for some people, but if it were that way I suspect the leader's would say something like, "The Lord taught when I was a stranger ye took me in... and when ye have done it unto the least of these..."

"We have always taught that we give 10% back to the Lord.  This month the Lord asks something different of the money you give him.  He would like you to pay your tithing to him by giving it unto the least of these.

The Lord has opened up the blessings of heaven to the church and we invite you to keep open those blessings by continuing to pay. If you counsel with him this month he will direct you where he would like it to go."

And if that were the case I don't think many would think of it as only an offering.  I'm open to being wrong on that though. 

Edited November 19, 2023 by Rain

[Calm]

36 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

At the time, I was surprised to find out that it's still an issue worldwide. I also like the immediate connection to the healings done by Jesus.

I knew a couple of women who crocheted bandages for those afflicted and heard from them it was a project coordinated through the RS.  I don’t know if it was just a local effort that spread, but I heard of it in both Canada (there was one elderly member who always was crocheting bandages at meetings—besides Sacrament Meetings—which I thought was pretty remarkable as she already had to manage her oxygen tank everywhere she went; she did beautiful work, I still have the stack of snowflakes for my Christmas tree she gave us 30 years ago) and in Utah when I first moved down.  Out of the loop now, so don’t know if it is continuing, but I assume more likely than not.

added:  looks like it was an LDS Humanitarian effort, which means it probably still is if there is still a need and unfortunately there is

https://www.deseret.com/2005/10/22/19918419/bandages-knit-with-love-are-miracles-of-healing

Edited November 19, 2023 by Calm

[Calm]

2 hours ago, Rain said:

I think an easier way would "every few months" have people give their tithing money to a charitable cause and then those particular months the invested money would pay for all the things tithing would normally pay for. Then the ward doesn't need to worry about 100s of extra money transactions. It would also work better where $1000/$10,000 might be a real concern - "it's mormon charity month again. They might have lots of cash on them!"

There might be a concern that those charities in wealthier areas might benefit more, but a list of rotating charities around the world could be provided. 

It would be an easier way, but traditionally the Church doesn’t do “easy” with tithing.  If they tell people to first pay tithing and then if they need food or other help to get it from the Church, I don’t see them using this approach in the future….at least not anytime soon.

Not saying I wouldn’t think it was cool, just saying I see it as unlikely.

Now I can see them telling the Bishop to take tithing money that month and add it to the fast offering fund instead after records were made to be sure to give members accurate tithing receipts, etc. and maybe creating more ward humanitarian specialists that help the bishops find worthwhile charities with members submitting suggestions to the specialists and the specialists receiving some training on vetting them (maybe two per ward in areas LDS dense and at a stake or mission level for areas where it is harder to fill callings to help avoid specialists scamming the wards).

Edited November 19, 2023 by Calm

[MiserereNobis]

7 minutes ago, Calm said:

I knew a couple of women who crocheted bandages for those afflicted and heard from them it was a project coordinated through the RS.  I don’t know if it was just a local effort that spread, but I heard of it in both Canada (there was one elderly member who always was crocheting bandages at meetings—besides Sacrament Meetings—which I thought was pretty remarkable as she already had to manage her oxygen tank everywhere she went) and in Utah when I first moved down.  Out of the loop now, so don’t know if it is continuing, but I assume more likely than not.

added:  looks like it was an LDS Humanitarian effort, which means it probably still is if there is still a need and unfortunately there is

https://www.deseret.com/2005/10/22/19918419/bandages-knit-with-love-are-miracles-of-healing

Super cool!

[Rain]

7 minutes ago, Calm said:

I knew a couple of women who crocheted bandages for those afflicted and heard from them it was a project coordinated through the RS.  I don’t know if it was just a local effort that spread, but I heard of it in both Canada (there was one elderly member who always was crocheting bandages at meetings—besides Sacrament Meetings—which I thought was pretty remarkable as she already had to manage her oxygen tank everywhere she went) and in Utah when I first moved down.  Out of the loop now, so don’t know if it is continuing, but I assume more likely than not.

This is one of the projects that the distribution center was doing about 20-25 years ago when I visited. You picked up a pattern and/or project, did it and then brought it back to them. I don't know if they still do it or not. 

7 minutes ago, Calm said:

added:  looks like it was an LDS Humanitarian effort, which means it probably still is if there is still a need and unfortunately there is

https://www.deseret.com/2005/10/22/19918419/bandages-knit-with-love-are-miracles-of-healing

 

[Rain]

6 minutes ago, Calm said:

It would be an easier way, but traditionally the Church doesn’t do “easy” with tithing.  If they tell people to first pay tithing and then if they need food or other help to get it from the Church, I don’t see them using this approach in the future….at least not anytime soon.

Not saying I wouldn’t think it was cool, just saying I see it as unlikely.

I agree with unlikely. Just going with Leaf's idea. 

[Calm]

23 minutes ago, Rain said:

This is one of the projects that the distribution center was doing about 20-25 years ago when I visited. You picked up a pattern and/or project, did it and then brought it back to them. I don't know if they still do it or not. 

 

I couldn’t find info about it on their website, but apparently this charity gave a grant to LDS Philanthropies last year, so it looks like it could still doing something in this area.

added:  I probably should have read more, I assumed “leprosy” and/or India modified the following, but have changed my mind.  I thought the grants would be tied to helping the India colonies, but it looks like one grant goes there and others may not be related to India or leprosy at all (I couldn’t see 12, only 3).

https://www.causeiq.com/organizations/cg-charitable-fund,200495002/

Quote

The CG Charitable Fund is a private foundation located in Layton, UT. It primarily funds support to India's leprosy colonies, schools, libraries, and tutoring, as well as scholarships and education in Guatemala for youths. Last year, it made 19 grants to grantees including LDS Philanthropies and others.

 

Edited November 19, 2023 by Calm

[Leaf474]

16 hours ago, bluebell said:

It’s an intriguing idea.

I think I might struggle because for me tithing money is the Lord’s money and giving it to a charity wouldn’t feel like tithing to me. It would feel like an offering (which I do see as different than tithing).  And like something I could skip that month if money was tight, unlike my view of tithing.

But my struggles with the idea doesn’t mean it’s a bad one. Just my initial thoughts about it off the top of my head.

That's interesting. Is it like this?

Malachi 3:10

Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house.

 

That the tithe has to be used directly for the house of the Lord? What should be done if more tithe comes into a ward then can be used for that ward or its share of the Church's overall expenses? (Not asking as a challenge, just wondering 🙂 )

[Leaf474]

15 hours ago, Calm said:

Homeless people are often homeless because they have difficulty managing money, so probably best not to hand over the money directly to them, especially since this could make them a target once the effort becomes known.

Well, they could probably use five bucks or something. Not as a regular thing, such that they become dependent on it. Or become targets.

 

But sure, money could be given to homeless shelters and soup kitchens.

 

I'm going to begin sermonizing on this subject, feel free to ignore it, if you wish 😀

 

Mark 4:19

...and the cares of this age, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things entering in choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful.

 

Riches can be deceitful in different ways, but one way is the idea that money must be given away only to people who really deserve it or will use it well. The reason for wealth to be given away is not because it's going to eliminate poverty - it may not even reduce it - but because excessive wealth is damaging to its owners.

 

Matthew 19:21

Jesus said to him, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have, and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.”

 

I don't think it was critical which poor the man gave his money to, just that he give it away.

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, Leaf474 said:

That's interesting. Is it like this?

Malachi 3:10

Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house.

 

That the tithe has to be used directly for the house of the Lord? What should be done if more tithe comes into a ward then can be used for that ward or its share of the Church's overall expenses? (Not asking as a challenge, just wondering 🙂 )

I think it's the concept that the money is given to the Lord/His servants and then directed by Him through them on what to do with it.  The money going directly from me to a charity of my choosing seems more like an offering than a tithe (which is paid to the Lord because it is viewed as His money to do with as He directs).

Rain is right in that it could be worded in a way to try to get around that issue but without actually giving it to the Lord for Him to use, it would be hard for it not to feel like an offering to me and instead of a tithe, regardless of the way it was described. 

If the money was paid to the Lord and then His servants said, take this excess and give to the poor, that would feel like a tithe to me.  Probably because the money left my stewardship and was placed in the Lord's for a time.  And also probably because I would not be getting 'my' money back to give to the poor.  It would be money coming from the (theoretical) storehouse for me to use and not my own money.

That might all seem moot to some people but there is a difference in my perspective.

[Rain]

 

4 hours ago, Leaf474 said:

Well, they could probably use five bucks or something. Not as a regular thing, such that they become dependent on it. Or become targets.

 

But sure, money could be given to homeless shelters and soup kitchens.

 

I'm going to begin sermonizing on this subject, feel free to ignore it, if you wish 😀

 

Mark 4:19

...and the cares of this age, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things entering in choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful.

 

Riches can be deceitful in different ways, but one way is the idea that money must be given away only to people who really deserve it or will use it well. The reason for wealth to be given away is not because it's going to eliminate poverty - it may not even reduce it - but because excessive wealth is damaging to its owners.

 

Matthew 19:21

Jesus said to him, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have, and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.”

 

I don't think it was critical which poor the man gave his money to, just that he give it away.

I really struggle with giving directly to the homeless and its directly opposite of judging them. 

My brother was an addict, alcoholic and often homeless. The thing is you can't always tell when you give money to someone homeless if it will go to something helpful or to drugs or alcohol.   I know some will say, "don't give to homeless because they will only spend it on alcohol" and others say "we can't judge them.  We don't get to decide if they are worthy".  I say "if I give this money to someone like my brother, will it enable him and causes greater harm to him?" I don't know.  I can't judge that person. So I don't give money to homeless because I don't want to hurt them and I don't know who it will hurt and who it won't. Instead I give to organizations who help the homeless and better know how not to hurt them.  

Also, the city of Phoenix asked people to quit giving out blankets, gloves etc.  The reason why? Instead of using them the homeless were discarding them and they were becoming huge piles of unsafe trash that the city had to pay money to have cleaned up. Money that could have been spent on something needed.  It was also drawing the homeless away from shelters and other places that not only had shelter, food, clothing etc, but also had mental and medical health services.

But there are times when I have directly given them food.  

I know other people disagree with me and I'm ok with that, but those who do not directly give to homeless are not all doing it out of judgment or superierority.

Edited November 19, 2023 by Rain

[Calm]

4 hours ago, Leaf474 said:

don't think it was critical which poor the man gave his money to, just that he give it away.

I think it is critical though that we care about the person not as the vehicle that allows us to exercise charity, but as an individual with their own unique weaknesses and strengths and needs.  If we don’t have the time to get to know that person enough to know we are at least most likely helping them and at least not harming them and we give so we can feel good about our efforts (definitely not a bad thing, there are many efforts I would say that is a good standard to use), I wonder if we are really fulfilling God’s desires for us and for them as well as we could.  If there isn’t a local service that provides for someone who you believe is in immediate need and you lack the ability to find out more than a few minutes of talking to someone can yield, then erring on the side of caution may in that case mean giving someone money, but in most cases in the US, my guess is there are services you can support if you are too unsure about your ability to judge true need that are better at providing than you could be without making it a significant part of your life (time wise).

We have been in places where the homeless and beggars could be part of a criminal organization, where children were abused and neglected so they would look more pitiful.  Where beggars could take their earnings and purchase a jello cup’s worth of alcohol from a street vendor and so would be passed out on sidewalks and easy targets for thieves and assaults.  It has made me very leery about giving, not because I judge these people as evil or undeserving as I think even most who are manipulating their local system (as opposed to the many who are just trying to survive) whatever that might be are there because of real needs that were not met and desperation followed and they found ways to survive, but because I don’t want to create more victims, I don’t want to hurt others.  So I look for ways to help without harming.

Edited November 19, 2023 by Calm

[CV75]

52 minutes ago, Rain said:

 

I really struggle with giving directly to the homeless and its directly opposite of judging them. 

My brother was an addict, alcoholic and often homeless. The thing is you cont always tell when you give money to someone homeless if it will go to something helpful or to drugs or alcohol.   I know some will say, "don't give to homeless because they will only spend it on alcohol" and others say "we can't judge them.  We don't get to decide if they are worthy".  I say "if I give this money to someone like my brother, which enables him and causes greater harm to him?" I don't know.  I can't judge that person. So I don't give money to homeless because I don't want to hurt them. Instead I give to organizations who help the homeless and better know how not to hurt them.  

Also, the city of Phoenix asked people to quit giving out blankets, gloves etc.  The reason why? Instead of using them the homeless were discarding them and they were becoming huge piles of unsafe trash that the city had to pay money to have cleaned up. Money that could have been spent on something needed.  It was also drawing the homeless away from shelters and other places that not only had shelter, food, clothing etc, but also had mental and medical health services.

But there are times when I have directly given them food.  

I know other people disagree with me and I'm ok with that, but those who do not directly give to homeless are all doing it out of judgment or superierority.

Mosiah 4: 16 - 22 has helped me gain some perspective on my personal decisions to give individually and personally to those in need:

"And also, ye yourselves will ^asuccor those that stand in need of your succor; ye will administer of your substance unto him that standeth in need; and ye will not suffer that the ^bbeggar putteth up his petition to you in vain, and turn him out to perish... And if ye ^ajudge the man who putteth up his petition to you for your substance that he perish not, and condemn him..."

I have extremely rarely come cross a panhandler who is on the verge of perishing.

So, I do not believe there is a hard and fast commandment to give of our means to the beggar, period. While we are free and encouraged to give as liberally as we can and tend to follow this counsel more with friends, family and the Church than with those we pass on the street whom we do not know, we are only commanded to administer to those who are immediately faced with destruction. These other forms of giving are more in line with building self-reliance, the community of saints and Zion than rescuing someone from immediate danger and harm, including organized humanitarian efforts. Most panhandlers and homeless are uniquely self-sufficient in their own way, impairments and afflictions notwithstanding.

Similarly, Alma 34: 27-29 uses the term "turn away" as an unworthy response to "those in need" around us. This means familiarity and proximity. These are typically not on the verge of perishing, and so seeking them out (humanitarian aid and self-reliance efforts, "in wisdom and order" -- Mosiah 4:27) and welcoming them into the fold (pragmatic missionary work, in wisdom and order) is the best approach to care for them and help them realize a more favorable condition:

Yea, and when you do not cry unto the Lord, let your ^ahearts be ^bfull, drawn out in prayer unto him continually for your ^cwelfare, and also for the welfare of ^dthose who are around you. And now behold, my beloved brethren, I say unto you, do not suppose that this is all; for after ye have done all these things, if ye ^aturn away the ^bneedy, and the ^cnaked, and visit not the sick and afflicted, and ^dimpart of your substance, if ye have, to those who stand in need—I say unto you, if ye do not any of these things, behold, your ^eprayer is ^fvain, and availeth you nothing, and ye are as ^ghypocrites who do deny the faith. Therefore, if ye do not remember to be ^acharitable, ye are as dross, which the refiners do cast out, (it being of no worth) and is trodden under foot of men.

 

[Rain]

59 minutes ago, CV75 said:

Mosiah 4: 16 - 22 has helped me gain some perspective on my personal decisions to give individually and personally to those in need:

"And also, ye yourselves will ^asuccor those that stand in need of your succor; ye will administer of your substance unto him that standeth in need; and ye will not suffer that the ^bbeggar putteth up his petition to you in vain, and turn him out to perish... And if ye ^ajudge the man who putteth up his petition to you for your substance that he perish not, and condemn him..."

I have extremely rarely come cross a panhandler who is on the verge of perishing.

So, I do not believe there is a hard and fast commandment to give of our means to the beggar, period. While we are free and encouraged to give as liberally as we can and tend to follow this counsel more with friends, family and the Church than with those we pass on the street whom we do not know, we are only commanded to administer to those who are immediately faced with destruction. These other forms of giving are more in line with building self-reliance, the community of saints and Zion than rescuing someone from immediate danger and harm, including organized humanitarian efforts. Most panhandlers and homeless are uniquely self-sufficient in their own way, impairments and afflictions notwithstanding.

Similarly, Alma 34: 27-29 uses the term "turn away" as an unworthy response to "those in need" around us. This means familiarity and proximity. These are typically not on the verge of perishing, and so seeking them out (humanitarian aid and self-reliance efforts, "in wisdom and order" -- Mosiah 4:27) and welcoming them into the fold (pragmatic missionary work, in wisdom and order) is the best approach to care for them and help them realize a more favorable condition:

Yea, and when you do not cry unto the Lord, let your ^ahearts be ^bfull, drawn out in prayer unto him continually for your ^cwelfare, and also for the welfare of ^dthose who are around you. And now behold, my beloved brethren, I say unto you, do not suppose that this is all; for after ye have done all these things, if ye ^aturn away the ^bneedy, and the ^cnaked, and visit not the sick and afflicted, and ^dimpart of your substance, if ye have, to those who stand in need—I say unto you, if ye do not any of these things, behold, your ^eprayer is ^fvain, and availeth you nothing, and ye are as ^ghypocrites who do deny the faith. Therefore, if ye do not remember to be ^acharitable, ye are as dross, which the refiners do cast out, (it being of no worth) and is trodden under foot of men.

 

I don't feel the same way about this.  I realize you saw a connection with what I said and I appreciate you trying to connect (I do! Thank you!), but the way you are describing this is not the way I feel. Maybe you were just saying this is how you handle the situations and if that's all you were saying I apologize, but if you were saying our reasoning was pretty much the same I don't really feel that way.  I see the reasoning quite different, but I can't second guess your heart and inspiration when it doesn't match mine.

[Buckeye]

On 11/2/2023 at 11:41 AM, The Nehor said:

Ever seen a woman wear pants to Relief Society?

My wife began wearing pants to church this year. She had some concern that she’d be judged, but nary a comment so far. Just a call to join the ward YW presidency. 

Edited November 19, 2023 by Buckeye