Leaf474 Posted November 21, 2023 Posted November 21, 2023 18 hours ago, Thinking said: Yet this is what tithe paying members do. Isn't it ironic? Interesting observation ❤️
Leaf474 Posted November 21, 2023 Posted November 21, 2023 10 hours ago, bluebell said: This is an interesting question. Tithing is not specifically taught as a covenant and any scriptures that I can think of off the top of my head, but it is taught as a law of God. So I guess we could ask ourselves “have we covenanted to obey all the laws of God?” If yes, then it probably makes sense to speak of tithing as a covenant obligation. Interestingly, according to the law given by God in the wilderness, tithing is done differently every third year. "At the end of every three years you shall bring all the tithe of your increase in the same year, and shall store it within your gates. 29 The Levite, because he has no portion nor inheritance with you, as well as the foreigner living among you, the fatherless, and the widow who are within your gates shall come, and shall eat and be satisfied; that the Lord your God may bless you in all the work of your hand which you do. - Deuteronomy 14
bluebell Posted November 21, 2023 Posted November 21, 2023 53 minutes ago, Leaf474 said: Interestingly, according to the law given by God in the wilderness, tithing is done differently every third year. "At the end of every three years you shall bring all the tithe of your increase in the same year, and shall store it within your gates. 29 The Levite, because he has no portion nor inheritance with you, as well as the foreigner living among you, the fatherless, and the widow who are within your gates shall come, and shall eat and be satisfied; that the Lord your God may bless you in all the work of your hand which you do. - Deuteronomy 14 If we still lived under the Law of Moses I think that would probably still be applicable. 2
Leaf474 Posted November 21, 2023 Posted November 21, 2023 22 minutes ago, bluebell said: If we still lived under the Law of Moses I think that would probably still be applicable. I hear that. I thought it was an interesting principle, poor people would eat it. 1
bluebell Posted November 21, 2023 Posted November 21, 2023 12 minutes ago, Leaf474 said: I hear that. I thought it was an interesting principle, poor people would eat it. Agreed. The law of Moses had some really interesting parts. Like how every so many years all the slaves were freed and the fields were left empty 1
Leaf474 Posted November 21, 2023 Posted November 21, 2023 1 hour ago, bluebell said: Agreed. The law of Moses had some really interesting parts. Like how every so many years all the slaves were freed and the fields were left empty Yes, and although we don't keep it, I believe there is great wisdom in the law of Moses. You probably already know that every tribe was given an inheritance of land, except for the Levites. Their inheritance was the tithe on what the rest of Israel produced. (In some cases, the tithe seems to be on the total animal assets 🤔 ) Tithing isn't commanded in the New Testament, so at least as far as the Bible goes, the only clear instruction about the recipients of the tithe is: the Levites (with the exception that every third years part of it is given to the poor in the form of food). __________________ I just bring these things up because I'm getting the impression from some of the posts that the total amount coming in from LDS tithing is more than can reasonably be distributed, at least by a single organization. 1
Tacenda Posted November 21, 2023 Posted November 21, 2023 (edited) 18 minutes ago, Leaf474 said: Yes, and although we don't keep it, I believe there is great wisdom in the law of Moses. You probably already know that every tribe was given an inheritance of land, except for the Levites. Their inheritance was the tithe on what the rest of Israel produced. (In some cases, the tithe seems to be on the total animal assets 🤔 ) Tithing isn't commanded in the New Testament, so at least as far as the Bible goes, the only clear instruction about the recipients of the tithe is: the Levites (with the exception that every third years part of it is given to the poor in the form of food). __________________ I just bring these things up because I'm getting the impression from some of the posts that the total amount coming in from LDS tithing is more than can reasonably be distributed, at least by a single organization. This is my crux for me, I don't believe tithing is a commandment now, use to. I believe that a donation is asked for the church's out there that need to run and operate. https://www.faithfellowshipfortbend.com/posts/tithing#:~:text=Tithing is mentioned three times,7%3A1-10). Edited November 21, 2023 by Tacenda
bluebell Posted November 21, 2023 Posted November 21, 2023 (edited) 24 minutes ago, Leaf474 said: I just bring these things up because I'm getting the impression from some of the posts that the total amount coming in from LDS tithing is more than can reasonably be distributed, at least by a single organization. Analytics (and I think some others but I don't remember where) stated that the church is likely using 90% of its tithes to run it's yearly operations (which makes sense because tithing is what keeps the lights on in the buildings and pays for the construction of multiple temples every year and that kind of stuff). If that's accurate then we are talking about what to do with the other 10%. On it's own I'm not sure that that can be described as "more than can reasonably be distributed". But the money that results in the investment of that 10% could likely be described that way, if some were calling for it's distribution (and some are). Edited November 21, 2023 by bluebell 3
ksfisher Posted November 21, 2023 Posted November 21, 2023 16 hours ago, SkyRock said: Maybe it is time for the church to suggest tithing be 10% of net and then encourage those who can to give gross...... Why? The church has no position on this at the moment. It's left up to the individual tithe payer to determine if they have payed a full tithe or not. 3
bluebell Posted November 21, 2023 Posted November 21, 2023 10 minutes ago, Tacenda said: This is my crux for me, I don't believe tithing is a commandment now, use to. I believe that a donation is asked for the church's out there that need to run and operate. 25 minutes ago, Leaf474 said: Tithing isn't commanded in the New Testament, so at least as far as the Bible goes, the only clear instruction about the recipients of the tithe is: the Levites Tithing existed before the law of Moses (Genesis 14) and is not specifically tied to the Levites only (which didn't yet exist when Abraham paid it). There are other churches besides the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints that teach that tithing is a commandment of God. 2
Tacenda Posted November 21, 2023 Posted November 21, 2023 (edited) 16 minutes ago, bluebell said: Tithing existed before the law of Moses (Genesis 14) and is not specifically tied to the Levites only (which didn't yet exist when Abraham paid it). There are other churches besides the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints that teach that tithing is a commandment of God. I know, I did think of that. Church's vary on that. ETA: Here's another article I've seen about it not being a New Testament commandment or law. And even Jesus agreeing. https://biblequestions.com/answers/does-the-bible-say-christians-need-to-tithe/?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=biblequestions&utm_content=arechristianssupposedtotithe&gclid=CjwKCAiAx_GqBhBQEiwAlDNAZj1SwKMl_2u_5ViFm0vBK8_ntAH_YTXkdxWcso3LN3JMrx9hh44sXxoC5DwQAvD_BwE The New Testament does not prescribe tithing. In fact, Jesus explicitly calls tithing a matter of the Law (see Matthew 23:23), and Christians are not under the Law (Romans 6:14; Galatians 5:18). Therefore, Christians are not under the tithe. Edited November 21, 2023 by Tacenda
Leaf474 Posted November 21, 2023 Posted November 21, 2023 45 minutes ago, Tacenda said: This is my crux for me, I don't believe tithing is a commandment now, use to. I believe that a donation is asked for the church's out there that need to run and operate. https://www.faithfellowshipfortbend.com/posts/tithing#:~:text=Tithing is mentioned three times,7%3A1-10). The rating I would give your post if I could 👍
mfbukowski Posted November 21, 2023 Posted November 21, 2023 17 hours ago, SkyRock said: Maybe it is time for the church to suggest tithing be 10% of net and then encourage those who can to give gross...... You get to figure that out for yourself thru personal revelation.
bluebell Posted November 21, 2023 Posted November 21, 2023 33 minutes ago, Tacenda said: I know, I did think of that. Church's vary on that. ETA: Here's another article I've seen about it not being a New Testament commandment or law. And even Jesus agreeing. https://biblequestions.com/answers/does-the-bible-say-christians-need-to-tithe/?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=biblequestions&utm_content=arechristianssupposedtotithe&gclid=CjwKCAiAx_GqBhBQEiwAlDNAZj1SwKMl_2u_5ViFm0vBK8_ntAH_YTXkdxWcso3LN3JMrx9hh44sXxoC5DwQAvD_BwE The New Testament does not prescribe tithing. In fact, Jesus explicitly calls tithing a matter of the Law (see Matthew 23:23), and Christians are not under the Law (Romans 6:14; Galatians 5:18). Therefore, Christians are not under the tithe. I think that's kind of a labored interpretation of that verse (and definition of the word explicitly), which says: Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. If Christ was saying that tithing was a matter of the law of moses and not to be observed anymore, then that would mean that "judgement, mercy, and faith," which Christ also calls a matter of the law, would have to be given the same fate. Are Christians also not under "judgement, mercy, and faith" anymore? 4
mfbukowski Posted November 21, 2023 Posted November 21, 2023 (edited) 7 hours ago, bluebell said: Analytics (and I think some others but I don't remember where) stated that the church is likely using 90% of its tithes to run it's yearly operations (which makes sense because tithing is what keeps the lights on in the buildings and pays for the construction of multiple temples every year and that kind of stuff). If that's accurate then we are talking about what to do with the other 10%. On it's own I'm not sure that that can be described as "more than can reasonably be distributed". But the money that results in the investment of that 10% could likely be described that way, if some were calling for it's distribution (and some are). The question is how much you deduct to pay for one of them BYU boys or girls accountants to figure all of this out for you, for what is gross and what is net. (kidding) Driving to church? To do ministering? To carry kids to the temple? For the extra bucks I gave to a fund raiser? How about the old lady beggar I gave 5 bucks to? If you have your own business it can be hard to figure out what your gross and net is. Edited November 22, 2023 by mfbukowski 1
Tacenda Posted November 21, 2023 Posted November 21, 2023 59 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: The question is how much you deduct to pay for one of them BYU boys or girls accountants to figure all of this out for you, for what is gross and what is net. (kidding) Driving to church? To do ministering? To carry kids to the temple? For the extra bucks I gave to a fund raiser? How about the old lady beggar I gave 5 bucks to? If you have your own business it can be hard to figure out what your gross and net is. I just ballpark it as honestly as I can, and then pray about it, asking the Boss if we are cool or not. Sometimes he says I am being too selfish, sometimes it goes the other way. I write a check once a year and that's it. No lightning strikes yet.... I had a friend that did that, and believe it or not, I was thinking she was doing a no no! Yes I was a bad Mormon! God probably didn't want me among the LDS, gave them a bad name. Maybe He even gave me a faith crisis!
InCognitus Posted November 21, 2023 Posted November 21, 2023 33 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: If you have your own business it can be hard to figure out what your gross and net is. I was a "facilitator" for two different self reliance groups a few years ago (using the church's self reliance programs), and one of the topics I was assigned to facilitate was the one on "Starting and Growing My Business". The manual for Starting and Growing My Business helps people sort out how to distinguish what is relevant for tithing and what is not. This comes from page 124 of the PDF: Quote Read: Pay yourself. As your business begins to earn money, you need to decide how to pay yourself. Many business owners start by paying themselves a small salary, which can increase as the business grows and becomes financially stable. Keep separate bank accounts. The money you pay yourself should go into your personal bank account. This account should be separate from your business bank account. Don’t rob your own business. Successful business owners do not take money from their business bank account to give financial help to family or friends. This sets the stage for how to know how tithing should be calculated, from page 125 of the PDF: Quote 3. PAYING TITHING ON MY INCOME Read: We receive great blessings from paying tithing on our income. If we keep our business money and personal money separate, it’s easier to calculate our tithing. Remember these principles: Keep business and personal money in separate bank accounts. Pay tithing on personal income (such as salary) that you receive from your business. Money in your business is not tithed. You should use that money to pay for business expenses, salaries, and business growth opportunities. This is basic accounting, and I like that the church's resource makes this clear. But by using these instructions, those who own their own businesses really don't pay tithing any differently than any other employee. 2
The Nehor Posted November 21, 2023 Posted November 21, 2023 5 hours ago, Leaf474 said: I hear that. I thought it was an interesting principle, poor people would eat it. The Levites weren’t the poor. 2
Leaf474 Posted November 21, 2023 Posted November 21, 2023 3 hours ago, bluebell said: Analytics (and I think some others but I don't remember where) stated that the church is likely using 90% of its tithes to run it's yearly operations (which makes sense because tithing is what keeps the lights on in the buildings and pays for the construction of multiple temples every year and that kind of stuff). If that's accurate then we are talking about what to do with the other 10%. On it's own I'm not sure that that can be described as "more than can reasonably be distributed". But the money that results in the investment of that 10% could likely be described that way, if some were calling for it's distribution (and some are). Thanks ❤️ Is the 100 billion I hear sometimes the result of the 10% leftover each year? This may sound critical, but I'm really just trying to get information. Someone mentioned earlier, I think, that their ward collected about $350,000 to $400,000 per year. Let's use 360,000 because that's easy to divide up into 30,000 a month. The bishops and other leaders at the ward level are volunteers - as I understand it - and there's no property tax, so what's left would be mostly utilities and any mortgage on the building. I don't think that would be close to $30,000 a month, so quite a bit would be left over, it looks like. I've heard the estimated cost of an LDS temple is 5 million. Not too difficult to pay for, considering the probable excess coming from the wards. ##### All this would, of course, be much easier to talk about if we had detailed financial records, but I've heard the Church doesn't publish those? Is the idea that the Saints believe that the Church is true, and the Church says to give 10%, and that's really all there is to it? 1
Leaf474 Posted November 21, 2023 Posted November 21, 2023 3 hours ago, bluebell said: Tithing existed before the law of Moses (Genesis 14) That's true, however, it's not clear whether Abraham was giving a tenth of his increase (the spoils of war) or his total assets, which is a very different idea of what we think of tithing today. 3 hours ago, bluebell said: ...and is not specifically tied to the Levites only (which didn't yet exist when Abraham paid it). That's true for the time of Abraham. According to the law of Moses, Numbers 18:21 “To the children of Levi, behold, I have given all the tithe in Israel for an inheritance, in return for their service which they serve, even the service of the Tent of Meeting. 3 hours ago, bluebell said: There are other churches besides the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints that teach that tithing is a commandment of God. Definitely! If one looks at their reasoning, it's usually tied to the law of Moses. Tithing is mentioned in only seven messages in the New Testament. Four of those are Jesus talking about activities of the Pharisees or similar. The remaining three are from Hebrews 7, which appears to be talking about how Melchizedek was a greater priest than Aaron. Thus, Jesus being a priest according to the order of Melchizedek is greater than the levitical priests. Great discussion, by the way ❤️
Leaf474 Posted November 21, 2023 Posted November 21, 2023 3 hours ago, Tacenda said: I know, I did think of that. Church's vary on that. ETA: Here's another article I've seen about it not being a New Testament commandment or law. And even Jesus agreeing. https://biblequestions.com/answers/does-the-bible-say-christians-need-to-tithe/?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=biblequestions&utm_content=arechristianssupposedtotithe&gclid=CjwKCAiAx_GqBhBQEiwAlDNAZj1SwKMl_2u_5ViFm0vBK8_ntAH_YTXkdxWcso3LN3JMrx9hh44sXxoC5DwQAvD_BwE The New Testament does not prescribe tithing. In fact, Jesus explicitly calls tithing a matter of the Law (see Matthew 23:23), and Christians are not under the Law (Romans 6:14; Galatians 5:18). Therefore, Christians are not under the tithe. ❤️
Leaf474 Posted November 21, 2023 Posted November 21, 2023 2 hours ago, bluebell said: I think that's kind of a labored interpretation of that verse (and definition of the word explicitly), which says: Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. If Christ was saying that tithing was a matter of the law of moses and not to be observed anymore, then that would mean that "judgement, mercy, and faith," which Christ also calls a matter of the law, would have to be given the same fate. Are Christians also not under "judgement, mercy, and faith" anymore? Not to belabor this part, but tithing is a matter of the law of Moses / Old Testament - which of course, is all Jesus and the scribes had at the time. Tithing is not instructed in the New Testament (or maybe better, New Covenant - that is, after the cross). Paul's instruction to the churches were "Let each person give according as he has determined in his heart, not grudgingly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver." - 2 Corinthians 9 (If it matters, he's talking about collecting a gift for the Saints in Jerusalem, who I think we're having a hard time financially because of persecutions.)
Leaf474 Posted November 21, 2023 Posted November 21, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, The Nehor said: The Levites weren’t the poor. True! But every third year, it was done differently. Deuteronomy 26:12 When you have finished tithing all the tithe of your increase in the third year, which is the year of tithing, then you shall give it to the Levite, to the foreigner, to the fatherless, and to the widow, that they may eat within your gates and be filled. So yes, Levites, plus the widows and orphans, that are assumed to be poor, as I understand it. And while I'm on a roll, James 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before our God and Father is this: to visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained by the world. Edited November 21, 2023 by Leaf474
ksfisher Posted November 21, 2023 Posted November 21, 2023 1 minute ago, Leaf474 said: Tithing is not instructed in the New Testament (or maybe better, New Covenant - that is, after the cross). Members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints believe that the church today is led by prophets and apostles who speak with and for the Lord. We believe that the Lord reveals his will to prophets, apostles, as well as local leaders and individuals. In that regard it doesn't really matter is the bible commands members of the church to pay tithing. The bible is not the source or commandment or revelation, it is the Lord himself. 1
Calm Posted November 21, 2023 Posted November 21, 2023 3 hours ago, bluebell said: Analytics (and I think some others but I don't remember where) stated that the church is likely using 90% of its tithes to run it's yearly operations If it is taking 90% of tithing to run its current yearly operations, my guess is expanding into new areas such as Africa and Asia and continuing to grow in Latin America could end up taking up the rest of the 10% and then some. 3
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