Church sued again over how it uses tithing contributions from members

[bluebell]

12 minutes ago, Leaf474 said:

Is the $100 billion, then, just to support Zion, a city yet to come sometime in the future here in the US? Or the entire world?

It's to do whatever the church needs money for in the future when money isn't coming in from other sources.

“There will be future downturns,” Bishop Waddell said. “How extensive, how dramatic we don’t know. But one of the comments we made to the Journal was that if that were to happen, because of the reserves being carefully watched over, protected and wisely handled, we won’t have to stop missionary work, we won’t have to stop maintaining buildings and building temples, we won’t have to stop humanitarian and welfare work, we won’t have to stop education work. What the journalist (wrote) was that we won’t have to stop missionary work, period. Well, there’s more than that.”

The Presiding Bishopric said a large reserve is necessary, specifically citing as reasons the church’s expansion into countries in which congregations are not self-sustaining, the construction of 50 more temples and the growing cost of providing educational opportunities for more and more students. The church is educating 880,500 students through its seminary and institutes program, universities and Pathway program.

 

“When we talk about preparing for the Second Coming, that doesn’t mean we’re hoarding money so that we have it when the Second Coming takes place,” Bishop Waddell said. “In preparing for the Second Coming, we’re talking about building temples and providing places of worship and temples where people can receive sacred and exalting ordinances so we can gather Israel, we can do the missionary work in preparation for that day. And so, when we talk about preparing for it, that means all the work that’s going on now.”

That work could be jeopardized by an economic disaster like the Great Depression, he said.

“There will come a time when all of these resources, reserves, will be necessary,” he said. “We don’t know when, we don’t know exactly in what form, but you think of the (Bible story of the) seven fat years and the seven lean years, there’s so many examples in the scriptures that we strive to follow, whether it’s the parable of the talents and not to bury the talent. We saw what the Lord did to that individual. We want to be ready for any contingency.”

 

 

[Leaf474]

2 hours ago, bluebell said:

I thought that Abraham declined to accept the spoils?

Well, from Genesis 14,

Chedorlaomer and the kings who were with him came and struck the Rephaim in Ashteroth Karnaim, the Zuzim in Ham, the Emim in Shaveh Kiriathaim, 6 and the Horites in their Mount Seir, to El Paran, which is by the wilderness. 7 They returned, and came to En Mishpat (also called Kadesh), and struck all the country of the Amalekites, and also the Amorites, that lived in Hazazon Tamar.

 

It's a fairly large military campaign, the victorious Kings have a lot of spoil from everywhere, I assume.

 

Continuing on,

Abram said to the king of Sodom, “I have lifted up my hand to the Lord, God Most High, possessor of heaven and earth, 23 that I will not take a thread nor a sandal strap nor anything that is yours, lest you should say, ‘I have made Abram rich.’ 

I take away from that that is only the king of Sodom's goods that Abraham doesn't want. Possibly because they were associated with unrighteousness?

 

2 hours ago, bluebell said:

But, it's not just Abraham that we have record of paying tithes.  As you noted Jacob also covenanted to tithe in Genesis 28.  A covenant is by definition a two way promise.

Well, again something that we see differently 🙂❤️

Below is simply a promise that God makes, it doesn't look to me like it requires anything from anyone else. The whole passage is amazing, but it looks like God establishes the Covenant even with animals...

God spoke to Noah and to his sons with him, saying, 9 “As for me, behold, I establish my covenant with you, and with your offspring after you, 10 and with every living creature that is with you: the birds, the livestock...

- Genesis 9

 

2 hours ago, bluebell said:

I read Jacob's words as agreeing to a covenant where God has obligations and so does Jacob.  I guess in that way you could say that any time we make a covenant with God our promises to follow Him are conditional.  

Our covenant to tithe today is "conditional" in the same way that Jacob's was.

Thank you for your input ❤️

Edited November 28, 2023 by Leaf474

[bluebell]

2 minutes ago, Leaf474 said:

Well, from Genesis 14,

Chedorlaomer and the kings who were with him came and struck the Rephaim in Ashteroth Karnaim, the Zuzim in Ham, the Emim in Shaveh Kiriathaim, 6 and the Horites in their Mount Seir, to El Paran, which is by the wilderness. 7 They returned, and came to En Mishpat (also called Kadesh), and struck all the country of the Amalekites, and also the Amorites, that lived in Hazazon Tamar.

 

It's a fairly large military campaign called the victorious Kings have a lot of spoil from everywhere, I assume.

 

Continuing on,

Abram said to the king of Sodom, “I have lifted up my hand to the Lord, God Most High, possessor of heaven and earth, 23 that I will not take a thread nor a sandal strap nor anything that is yours, lest you should say, ‘I have made Abram rich.’ 

I take away from that that is only the king of Sodom's goods that Abraham doesn't want. Possibly because they were associated with unrighteousness?

Could be.  It's not very clear. 

Quote

 

Well, again something that we see differently 🙂❤️

Below is simply a promise that God makes, it doesn't look to me like it requires anything from anyone else. The whole passage is amazing, but it looks like God establishes the Covenant even with animals...

God spoke to Noah and to his sons with him, saying, 9 “As for me, behold, I establish my covenant with you, and with your offspring after you, 10 and with every living creature that is with you: the birds, the livestock...

- Genesis 9

 

 

 

From my perspective, this is a continuation of the covenant that God has already made with Noah in Gen. 6, which depended upon Noah being obedient to God's commands in order for him to gain the blessings that God promised.

(In terms of the animals, part of our beliefs or doctrine is that God's creations always obey Him, so a covenant with His creations would theoretically function under the same principles as His covenants with His children.  Obedience = blessings.  But given that I don't believe that scripture to be infallible, whether or not God actually made a covenant with the ladybugs to never drown them again with a worldwide flood, I don't know.  Since I'm sure plenty of ladybugs drown under other circumstances each year, I don't know how relevant such a covenant would be to that group, so I'm wary of taking that part of the story literally.  But if it happened then I've got no theological problem with it   ).

Besides Gen. 6 and 9, we also have Genesis 17 which explicitly outlines the covenant between God and Abraham, where God says what He will do and also outlines what Abraham must do to gain those blessings.

Quote

Thank you for your input 

You too!

[Leaf474]

3 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Here's a good reference also

New Jerusalem

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/gs/new-jerusalem?lang=eng

And this is from the ARTICLES OF FAITH - it's a little hard to NOT see what it plainly says, or pretend it is not Doctrine.

Every little child learns this:

"10 We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory."

 

Is the church going to start construction on Zion soon? As in the next year or two? Will they wait for Jesus to return before they begin construction?

[Leaf474]

3 hours ago, bluebell said:

I don't know, I've never checked.

First, it's probably important to note that it was $100 at the time of that specific information release.  It's worth is always changing though because investments lose money and gain it over time.  It's not a static number.  It doesn't even actually exist accept on paper.  Much of it is data on a computer screen and not liquid assets.  The last I've seen it mentioned, it had lost quite a bit of money during the economic downturn.

The SLT Tribune reported:

"The church investments have seen a 23% decline for 2022 as of September, faring a little worse than the blue-chip-oriented Dow, down 21% over the same period, as global investors reacted to record-high inflation, U.S. interest rate hikes, layoffs by major technology companies and the ongoing war in Ukraine."

So we probably aren't talking about $100bn anymore.

But no, I don't believe there is any specific prophecy spurring them except to be a wise steward of the resources the Lord provides.

It probably depends on what you mean by 'treasure'.  Should we always try to have savings?  I think yes, that's a part of being a wise steward of our resources.  Should we hoard money or make "laying up treasures for ourselves" our main goal in life?  No.  Should our hearts be set upon treasure rather than the things of God? No.

 

3 hours ago, bluebell said:

It all comes down to the focus and the "why".

Has the church said what the "why" is? As in, what is the plan for the $100 billion?*

 

*I'm just using that figure because it's what was used earlier in the thread, I think. We don't know the actual value today, true! It very possibly could have been 100 billion in the past and will be again in the future.

 

3 hours ago, bluebell said:

I don't know what mfb has said about it I haven't read any of his posts.  But no I don't think the plan is to use that money to take care of individual people.

Sorry, I thought you were referring to the passages in Luke 9 and 12.  

In those passages it seems clear that Jesus is teaching against covetousness, greed, and selfishness and letting worldly cares stop you from doing God's work.  I don't think any of them apply to what the church is doing.

❤️

[Leaf474]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

It's to do whatever the church needs money for in the future when money isn't coming in from other sources.

“There will be future downturns,” Bishop Waddell said. “How extensive, how dramatic we don’t know. But one of the comments we made to the Journal was that if that were to happen, because of the reserves being carefully watched over, protected and wisely handled, we won’t have to stop missionary work, we won’t have to stop maintaining buildings and building temples, we won’t have to stop humanitarian and welfare work, we won’t have to stop education work. What the journalist (wrote) was that we won’t have to stop missionary work, period. Well, there’s more than that.”

The Presiding Bishopric said a large reserve is necessary, specifically citing as reasons the church’s expansion into countries in which congregations are not self-sustaining, the construction of 50 more temples and the growing cost of providing educational opportunities for more and more students. The church is educating 880,500 students through its seminary and institutes program, universities and Pathway program.

 

“When we talk about preparing for the Second Coming, that doesn’t mean we’re hoarding money so that we have it when the Second Coming takes place,” Bishop Waddell said. “In preparing for the Second Coming, we’re talking about building temples and providing places of worship and temples where people can receive sacred and exalting ordinances so we can gather Israel, we can do the missionary work in preparation for that day. And so, when we talk about preparing for it, that means all the work that’s going on now.”

That work could be jeopardized by an economic disaster like the Great Depression, he said.

“There will come a time when all of these resources, reserves, will be necessary,” he said. “We don’t know when, we don’t know exactly in what form, but you think of the (Bible story of the) seven fat years and the seven lean years, there’s so many examples in the scriptures that we strive to follow, whether it’s the parable of the talents and not to bury the talent. We saw what the Lord did to that individual. We want to be ready for any contingency.”

Thanks for the input. That sounds like the money is being saved to build temples and places of worship at the second coming. That's how I read it.

[Leaf474]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

Could be.  It's not very clear.

Liberal scholars say that books like Genesis were compiled from multiple sources after the return from Babylon. That's one possible explanation for why some parts aren't very clear.

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

From my perspective, this is a continuation of the covenant that God has already made with Noah in Gen. 6, which depended upon Noah being obedient to God's commands in order for him to gain the blessings that God promised.

That's how it is with scripture, different people read it differently 😀

 

I think that's why most Christian groups - the big exception being Evangelicals - take the approach of: God speaks to our leaders, and they communicate God's will to us.

 

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

(In terms of the animals, part of our beliefs or doctrine is that God's creations always obey Him, so a covenant with His creations would theoretically function under the same principles as His covenants with His children.  Obedience = blessings.  But given that I don't believe that scripture to be infallible, whether or not God actually made a covenant with the ladybugs to never drown them again with a worldwide flood, I don't know.  Since I'm sure plenty of ladybugs drown under other circumstances each year, I don't know how relevant such a covenant would be to that group, so I'm wary of taking that part of the story literally.  But if it happened then I've got no theological problem with it   ).

Besides Gen. 6 and 9, we also have Genesis 17 which explicitly outlines the covenant between God and Abraham, where God says what He will do and also outlines what Abraham must do to gain those blessings.

You too!

❤️

Edited November 28, 2023 by Leaf474

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, Leaf474 said:

Thanks for the input. That sounds like the money is being saved to build temples and places of worship at the second coming. That's how I read it.

I'll bold the parts that explain what the money is for so it can't be missed.  I'm quoting the article that I already posted to you, which goes into much greater detail, but I didn't think I needed to post the link again as you said you have already read it.

“There will be future downturns,” Bishop Waddell said. “How extensive, how dramatic we don’t know. But one of the comments we made to the Journal was that if that were to happen, because of the reserves being carefully watched over, protected and wisely handled, we won’t have to stop missionary work, we won’t have to stop maintaining buildings and building temples, we won’t have to stop humanitarian and welfare work, we won’t have to stop education work. What the journalist (wrote) was that we won’t have to stop missionary work, period. Well, there’s more than that.”

 

 

 

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, Leaf474 said:

Liberal scholars say that books like Genesis were compiled from multiple sources after the return from Babylon. That's one possible explanation for why some parts aren't very clear.

That's how it is with scripture, different people read it differently 😀

 

With as old as it is, we are lucky it makes any sense at all.   

 

Quote

I think that's why most Christian groups - the big exception being Evangelicals - take the approach of: God speaks to our leaders, and they communicate God's will to us.

I haven't really studied to what degree (if any) other denominations believe in personal revelation from God.  I know that it's a big thing for us, but not sure how other Christians view it.   

 

[Calm]

3 hours ago, Leaf474 said:

I take away from that that is only the king of Sodom's goods that Abraham doesn't want. Possibly because they were associated with unrighteousness?

I have always read it as Abram wanting to be able to say to anyone his wealth was blessings from God and have people accept that as truth.  He wanted to give all glory to God…which would imply he didn’t accept gifts like that from anyone.

Edited November 29, 2023 by Calm

[mfbukowski]

3 hours ago, Leaf474 said:

Is the $100 billion, then, just to support Zion, a city yet to come sometime in the future here in the US? Or the entire world?

No, if you read carefully you will see that the belief is that New Jerusalem will encompass the world.

Millennium

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/millennium?lang=eng

[mfbukowski]

9 hours ago, Leaf474 said:

Is the church going to start construction on Zion soon? As in the next year or two? Will they wait for Jesus to return before they begin construction?

No, and yes!

The belief is that Nobody on earth knows when Christ will come, it could be any time, tomorrow or a thousand years!  But yes, the church has been preparing since the revelations were given.

But it is believed that many of the prophecies concerning the return of Christ are being fulfilled right now.

That is, imo, the reason for the accumulation of money and riches, and why less than 100% of tithing goes to the poor right now.

The church already owns the believed upon site where Joseph indicated the center of New Jerusalem would be.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/manual/primary-5/lesson-30?lang=eng#:~:text=What future event will take,the beginning of the Millennium.

Edited November 29, 2023 by mfbukowski

[Leaf474]

13 hours ago, bluebell said:

I'll bold the parts that explain what the money is for so it can't be missed.  I'm quoting the article that I already posted to you, which goes into much greater detail, but I didn't think I needed to post the link again as you said you have already read it.

“There will be future downturns,” Bishop Waddell said. “How extensive, how dramatic we don’t know. But one of the comments we made to the Journal was that if that were to happen, because of the reserves being carefully watched over, protected and wisely handled, we won’t have to stop missionary work, we won’t have to stop maintaining buildings and building temples, we won’t have to stop humanitarian and welfare work, we won’t have to stop education work. What the journalist (wrote) was that we won’t have to stop missionary work, period. Well, there’s more than that.”

Thanks for bolding those parts... I was reluctant to bring this up, but maybe it explains why my eyes missed those things... Isn't the second coming regarded as something that's going to happen very soon?

 

But the man in the interview says that there will be future downturns. If a significant downturn occurs maybe once every 20 or 30 years, and he's using the plural, then he's putting the second coming at least 40 years off... Probably more like 60 or 80. What's going on?

 

How much missionary work needs to be done at the second coming given Revelation 1:7

"Check it out! He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, including those who pierced him. All the tribes of the earth will mourn over him. Even so, Amen."

 

And continued thanks for the information ❤️

[Leaf474]

13 hours ago, Calm said:

I have always read it as Abram wanting to be able to say to anyone his wealth was blessings from God and have people accept that as truth.  He wanted to give all glory to God…which would imply he didn’t accept gifts like that from anyone.

It's possible, it looks like he accepts gifts from Pharaoh in Genesis 12:

Sarai was taken into Pharaoh’s house. 16 He dealt well with Abram for her sake. He had sheep, cattle, male donkeys, male servants, female servants, female donkeys, and camels.

[mfbukowski]

13 minutes ago, Leaf474 said:

How much missionary work needs to be done at the second coming given Revelation 1:7

And how long ago was that written?

Remember a lot of "missionary work" will happen in the form of work for the dead in temples, even after they pass away!

Perhaps you are not aware of that?

[Leaf474]

14 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

No, if you read carefully you will see that the belief is that New Jerusalem will encompass the world.

Millennium

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/millennium?lang=eng

So, the $100 billion is to support the entire world post-apocalypse?

[Stormin' Mormon]

26 minutes ago, Leaf474 said:

How much missionary work needs to be done at the second coming given Revelation 1:7

"Check it out! He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, including those who pierced him. All the tribes of the earth will mourn over him. Even so, Amen."

 

My understanding is that the Millennium will be the period of the earth's terrestrial existence.  We are currently living through it's telestial state, and after the millennial era, the earth will be celestialized.  

Given that living a terrestrial law does not require covenants, a terrestrial earth would be a peaceful one but not one reserved exclusively for those who have entered into covenants with Christ.  Therefore, the Millennium will still be a period of missionary work (on both sides of the veil), helping the good people of the earth (who are living a terrestrial law) prepare for a celestial inheritance through baptism by authorized agents of Christ.  

[Leaf474]

15 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

And how long ago was that written?

Close to 2,000 years. How does that relate?

 

15 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Remember a lot of "missionary work" will happen in the form of work for the dead in temples, even after they pass away!

Perhaps you are not aware of that?

Will they be baptizing for the dead after the second coming?

[Leaf474]

6 minutes ago, Stormin' Mormon said:

My understanding is that the Millennium will be the period of the earth's terrestrial existence.  We are currently living through it's telestial state, and after the millennial era, the earth will be celestialized.  

Given that living a terrestrial law does not require covenants, a terrestrial earth would be a peaceful one but not one reserved exclusively for those who have entered into covenants with Christ.  Therefore, the Millennium will still be a period of missionary work (on both sides of the veil), helping the good people of the earth (who are living a terrestrial law) prepare for a celestial inheritance through baptism by authorized agents of Christ.  

Well, at the second coming of Christ, everyone sees him, Yes? And all the tribes of the earth mourn for him.

 

At that point, it's just a matter of each individual making a decision, isn't it?

[Leaf474]

I think it's interesting that money is one subject that everyone has strong opinions about, from the man doing the sueing in the OP to the things we're talking about now 👍

 

I've heard that Jesus talked more about money than anything else.

[Calm]

35 minutes ago, Leaf474 said:

It's possible, it looks like he accepts gifts from Pharaoh in Genesis 12:

Sarai was taken into Pharaoh’s house. 16 He dealt well with Abram for her sake. He had sheep, cattle, male donkeys, male servants, female servants, female donkeys, and camels.

Since the Bible is a collection of stories by different authors and editors, I don’t feel the need to harmonize the different stories into a coherent whole, but look more at what the point is being made for that story.

[Calm]

23 minutes ago, Leaf474 said:

So, the $100 billion is to support the entire world post-apocalypse?

More likely it will be spent prior to that time in preparation, setting up infrastructure and buying needed resources for manufacturing and producing food over a longer period of time imo.

[Stormin' Mormon]

53 minutes ago, Leaf474 said:

Well, at the second coming of Christ, everyone sees him, Yes? And all the tribes of the earth mourn for him.

All true.  Belief in Christ will be widespread (maybe universal?), but that doesn't mean that everyone will acknowledge the LDS Church as Christ's authorized agent on the earth. 

Since a terrestrial life does not require covenants, the earth's terrestrial existence (ie, the millennium) will include multitudes who are good and honorable, but have not entered into the covenant path (ie, have not received a baptism from an authorized agent of Christ).  It will only be after the millennium, when the earth enters it Celestial existence, that everyone on it will need to be living a celestial law (which does entail baptismal covenants made through authorized channels).

Edited to add this quote, from Joseph Fielding Smith:

 

Quote

 

“Some members of the Church have an erroneous idea that when the millennium comes all of the people are going to be swept off the earth except righteous members of the Church. That is not so. There will be millions of people, Catholics, Protestants, agnostics, Mohammedans, people of all classes, and of all beliefs, still permitted to remain upon the face of the earth, but they will be those who have lived clean lives, those who have been free from wickedness and corruption. All who belong, by virtue of their good lives, to the terrestrial order, as well as those who have kept the celestial law, will remain upon the face of the earth during the millennium.

“Eventually, however, the knowledge of the Lord will cover the earth as the waters do the sea. But there will be need for the preaching of the gospel, after the millennium is brought in, until all men are either converted or pass away” (Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 1:86–87).

 

 

Edited November 29, 2023 by Stormin' Mormon

[Stormin' Mormon]

46 minutes ago, Leaf474 said:

Will they be baptizing for the dead after the second coming?

From the Gospel Principles manual, Chapter 45:

 

Quote

 

There will be two great works for members of the Church during the Millennium: temple work and missionary work. Temple work involves the ordinances that are necessary for exaltation. These include baptism, the laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost, and the temple ordinances—the endowment, temple marriage, and the sealing together of family units.

Many people have died without receiving these ordinances. People on the earth must perform these ordinances for them. This work is now being done in the temples of the Lord. There is too much work to finish before the Millennium begins, so it will be completed during that time. Resurrected beings will help us correct the mistakes we have made in doing research concerning our dead ancestors. They will also help us find the information we need to complete our records. (See Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, comp. Bruce R. McConkie, 3 vols. [1954–56], 2:167, 251–52.)

The other great work during the Millennium will be missionary work. The gospel will be taught with great power to all people. Eventually there will be no need to teach others the first principles of the gospel because “they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord” (Jeremiah 31:34).

 

 

[Leaf474]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

More likely it will be spent prior to that time in preparation, setting up infrastructure and buying needed resources for manufacturing and producing food over a longer period of time imo.

Are they doing that now? Thanks for your input ❤️