Members attended endowment sessions in foreign language. They could not understand…

[Rain]

43 minutes ago, CV75 said:

Funny, I went in 1978 as a fairly new covert, no temple preparation class, and found it a wonderful, familiar-feeling experience. I suppose there's a bell-curve of favorable and unfavorable initiate experiences

I wish this were understood more.  I used to think something was terribly wrong with me. I talked with my mission president, bishop and stake president over the years. At some point I spent a year devoted to trying to just get to neutral ground with the temple, but it didn't work and many other years where worked on it in daily life. I do have some positive experiences - my husband asking me to marry me in the celestial room (and more around that experience, my daughter going through initiatory (she loved it), an answer to a prayer, but it has never felt like home to me. 

I'm so glad my daughter loves the temple. I'm glad that it feels like home to you. I just wish that it would be ok for some of us not to have the same feelings.  

43 minutes ago, CV75 said:

, unlike, say, a curve for the use of "fetch" [slang] as a malaprop.

 

[webbles]

1 hour ago, Diamondhands69 said:

Here’s a novel concept… use a recording. Recording devices existed even before WW2 so there is no excuse. 

love it how many like to make it seem an impossible task for the church to do. They even have some of the membership conditioned to make excuses for everything. bottom line-no one cared if the brown or yellow people got the right message or any message at all. Eventually they did, but they slow rolled it. 

I don't know why you are talking about skin color since this affected everyone who couldn't speak English.  So Spanish, Germans, Swiss, Danish, French, Italians, Hawaiians, Japanese, Portuguese, etc were all affected.  There were a ton of converts from non-English speaking countries during the early days of the church and all of them had this issue.

By the way, the Spanish translation for the complete Doctrine and Covenants didn't happen till 1948 (French is even later at 1958).  The first Spanish translation of the temple ceremony was 1944.  The first Danish translation of the Doctrine and Covenants was 1852 and yet they didn't get a temple translation till after 1955.  I'm more surprised that Spanish was the first temple translation than how long it took to translate the ceremony for the first time.

I also found https://www.templefacts.org/post/temple-languages which talks about some of the history of the ceremony translation.  One interesting thing is that after the Hawaii temple was dedicated in 1919, the temple president translated part of the ceremony into Hawaiian and used it in the temple ceremony.  Additionally, it states that Joseph F. Smith would help Hawaiians going through the Salt Lake Temple and translate the ceremony for them.  So just because the entire temple ceremony wasn't translated doesn't mean that those who went through the temple weren't helped.

[The Nehor]

47 minutes ago, bluebell said:

None of those people are actors, but I get what you are saying.  However, I don't think it would be as easy as you are suggesting. 

Besides that, it sounds like it was similar for white attendees who didn't speak English.  Is it possible that nefarious motives isn't a foregone conclusion?

I am sure the apostles were cloistered together cackling with glee over not being able to give temple ordinances to everyone who wanted them.

[webbles]

3 minutes ago, Rain said:

I wish this were understood more.  I used to think something was terribly wrong with me. I talked with my mission president, bishop and stake president over the years. At some point I spent a year devoted to trying to just get to neutral ground with the temple, but it didn't work and many other years where worked on it in daily life. I do have some positive experiences - my husband asking me to marry me in the celestial room (and more around that experience, my daughter going through initiatory (she loved it), an answer to a prayer, but it has never felt like home to me. 

I'm so glad my daughter loves the temple. I'm glad that it feels like home to you. I just wish that it would be ok for some of us not to have the same feelings.  

 

There was a time where the presentation used a lot of parallax like movement (parts in the background would move different from parts in the foreground).  It made me queasy when I watched it and I had to start closing my eyes for the entire time.  They've removed most of it but it still bothers me so I still have to close my eyes.  It makes it really difficult to stay awake and to get much out of it.  It has made it difficult to want to go to the temple for me.

[Diamondhands69]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

Besides that, it sounds like it was similar for white attendees who didn't speak English.  Is it possible that nefarious motives isn't a foregone conclusion?

With the church’s own history of racism it is actually more likely to be the reason. Esp during that time period. 

[MustardSeed]

Interesting battle to choose.  I see no issue, but ok. 

[bluebell]

8 minutes ago, Diamondhands69 said:

With the church’s own history of racism it is actually more likely to be the reason. Esp during that time period. 

Even thought it was equally applicable for white people who didn't speak English?

[Maestrophil]

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

No one knows your mother like you do, but did she attribute her leaving the Church to this one experience? I ask because it only takes one personal experience to justify staying in the Church as well.

No - it was just a shaky foundation and start - she remained active for 30 years, and then started reading history of JS etc. and things kind of just crumbled and exposed that her testimony wasn't ever super-reinforced.  

[Maestrophil]

18 minutes ago, Diamondhands69 said:

With the church’s own history of racism it is actually more likely to be the reason. Esp during that time period. 

Which is exactly why I chimed in with my story!

[mfbukowski]

Before Vatican II every Catholic in the world attended every mass on every Sunday, or other day, in Latin, a dead language that no one in the world actually used in ordinary life.

Translations were printed in a Bible- like book, called a "Missal" - or ordinarily a "prayerbook" since some prayers are seasonal and vary.

And many people protested vehemently against the mass in English.

Now there are conservative groups who still favor the traditional Latin, as I once did.

Maybe translation of the temple text was late since so many Catholics protested their experiences with translation?

There is a " mystery" factor I think that can make prayers psychologically more "spiritual" in an ancient language for Catholics of that era.

Plus translations were provided.

That's a difference I think

Edited October 24, 2023 by mfbukowski

[CV75]

44 minutes ago, Rain said:

I wish this were understood more.  I used to think something was terribly wrong with me. I talked with my mission president, bishop and stake president over the years. At some point I spent a year devoted to trying to just get to neutral ground with the temple, but it didn't work and many other years where worked on it in daily life. I do have some positive experiences - my husband asking me to marry me in the celestial room (and more around that experience, my daughter going through initiatory (she loved it), an answer to a prayer, but it has never felt like home to me. 

I'm so glad my daughter loves the temple. I'm glad that it feels like home to you. I just wish that it would be ok for some of us not to have the same feelings.  

 

it is OK with me, hence my reference to the bell curve as my go-to supposition. As opposed to that, I think relatively very few people use "fetch" as a malaprop.

[CV75]

11 minutes ago, Maestrophil said:

No - it was just a shaky foundation and start - she remained active for 30 years, and then started reading history of JS etc. and things kind of just crumbled and exposed that her testimony wasn't ever super-reinforced.  

That is a sad situation to be in -- I am sorry for all involved.

[Maestrophil]

15 minutes ago, CV75 said:

That is a sad situation to be in -- I am sorry for all involved.

Thank you - I feel a lot of sympathy for her experience, and then my dad followed.  Though he is now more 'out' than my mom even mentally, at first I think he mostly went along with her to keep the peace.  I'm the last active member in my family - including my siblings, kids and ex wife.  

[Diamondhands69]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

You do know that parts of the ceremony are interactive? And that they were much more interactive back then?

And synching a recording to a live presentation is not going to stay matched up for long.

There is plenty in the Church to be mad about but this is pretty silly.

Yep must have been so hard the church just couldn’t do it. That saying about being able to do hard things isn’t really true I guess. 

[bluebell]

It doesn't work to blame this issue on racism when the first language the church did translate the endowment into was Spanish (in 1945).  I don't think it was translated into any European languages until 1953.  

[CV75]

1 hour ago, Maestrophil said:

Thank you - I feel a lot of sympathy for her experience, and then my dad followed.  Though he is now more 'out' than my mom even mentally, at first I think he mostly went along with her to keep the peace.  I'm the last active member in my family - including my siblings, kids and ex wife.  

I am grateful you have remembered your reason for staying. I know another man who converted with his wife in the 70s, had 6 kids raised in the Church but left once on their own, and he's been the only active member for some 30+ years.

[webbles]

Since @Diamondhands69 started this with a reference to the Japanese translation, I found https://rsc.byu.edu/laie-hawaii-temple-century-aloha/serving-growing-membership-east which discusses how the Japanese translation came to be.  The Japanese mission worked on having a large group to travel to a temple and receive their endowments and sealings.  It was first thought to go to the LA temple but was then redirected to the Hawaii temple because there were a lot of Japanese speaking members there (who also spoke English) and personnel at the temple had previously translated the ceremony into Samoan and Maori.  The Japanese mission had an official translator (Tatsui Sato) who had translated much of the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, etc and he was chosen to translate the entire ceremony.  He flew out earlier and received his own endowment and then spent weeks in the temple attending countless endowments so he would be able to truly understand what was being said.  After about 3 months, he finished the translation.  They then recorded the ceremony with voices from Japanese members in Hawaii and also set apart multiple Japanese members to be temple workers for the large group coming from Japan.

[CV75]

52 minutes ago, Diamondhands69 said:

Yep must have been so hard the church just couldn’t do it. That saying about being able to do hard things isn’t really true I guess. 

Getting into an imaginary, chronomobile random solution generator like you do is the easiest thing in the world to do. But it simply doesn't work! 

[Maestrophil]

21 minutes ago, CV75 said:

I am grateful you have remembered your reason for staying. I know another man who converted with his wife in the 70s, had 6 kids raised in the Church but left once on their own, and he's been the only active member for some 30+ years.

Thank you - I just know what I have experienced, and can't deny it even if I wanted to 🙂. 

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, Diamondhands69 said:

Yep must have been so hard the church just couldn’t do it. That saying about being able to do hard things isn’t really true I guess. 

Got it, you just want to whine. Enjoy.

[Raingirl]

4 hours ago, CV75 said:

Funny, I went in 1978 as a fairly new covert, no temple preparation class, and found it a wonderful, familiar-feeling experience. I suppose there's a bell-curve of favorable and unfavorable initiate experiences, unlike, say, a curve for the use of "fetch" [slang] as a malaprop.

I did have a temple prep class and went as soon as the requisite year wait was up. I, too, found it wonderful and familiar-feeling.  I was eager to go again as soon as possible. 

[Stormin' Mormon]

1 hour ago, Diamondhands69 said:

Yep must have been so hard the church just couldn’t do it. That saying about being able to do hard things isn’t really true I guess. 

In 1898, the LDS Church was $2 million in debt.  The CPI calculator at bls.gov doesn't go back that far, but it does go back to 1913.  Close enough, says me.  And in 1913, $2 million was the equivalent of $62.8 million dollars in today's dollars.  That was roughly $7.50 per member of the Church, which doesn't sound like much.  But if we apply an inflation adjustment to that $7.50 we come up with a modern day equivalent of $235.55.  If the Church today owed a debt equal to $235 per member, we'd be in hock for $3.9 billion (with a B). 

All that to say: the LDS Church in the first half of the 20th century was indeed doing hard things. Climbing out of a debt that huge ought to excuse it from attempting to tackle other hard things.  And yet, the Church could walk and chew gum at the same time.  While it was putting away this mountain of debt, it transitioned to a policy of building Zion in situ, it established a durable welfare program, and it doubled the number of temples in operation. All of which impacted the very survival of the Church.  I think it can be forgiven for putting off temple translation until a later date when it had the time, resources, and breathing room to do so.  

[Diamondhands69]

4 hours ago, bluebell said:

Even thought it was equally applicable for white people who didn't speak English?

Yea I see your point . I guess the endowment isn’t really all that important for anyone to understand or get right. 

[Pyreaux]

However justified you think you are, it's said by someone far too rivalrous to be taken seriously. I don't think the Japanese faithful appreciate your outrage on their behalf, or your constant criticism of their faith, or judgment of the boots on the ground thinking things like saving their ancestors, who they honor, was more important at the time than the language barrier. So, to hear you turn it all into an insult of their race could be far more insulting to many of them, this I am almost sure. I would be. What next, raging over the Latin Mass? I bet not, for its the wrong ax grind.

Edited October 25, 2023 by Pyreaux

[bluebell]

15 minutes ago, Diamondhands69 said:

Yea I see your point . I guess the endowment isn’t really all that important for anyone to understand or get right. 

You didn't see my point.  I also don't think you remember your point anymore, with a reply like that.