Members attended endowment sessions in foreign language. They could not understand…

[mfbukowski]

4 hours ago, Diamondhands69 said:

 Was never able to remember all that and it used to be more of a circus before they made the major adjustment to it in ‘90 I think

Penalties were not given at that point before 1990, same as today, so I see no difference.

Edited October 25, 2023 by mfbukowski

[Calm]

4 hours ago, Diamondhands69 said:

They never felt the spirit like that tillthey heard it in their own language. They didn’t understand it.

Why do you assume the spirit must be there if they understand and if it isn’t, they don’t?  Cannot children feel the Spirit when families are sealed together in the temple and yet do we expect them to understand very much at all?  Cannot some investigators feel the Spirit as they walk through temple open houses even before they have been taught the lessons?

The devils understand who Christ is better than most humans do according to scripture and yet the Spirit is unlikely to speak to them.  

The two men walked with Christ on the road to Emmaus and did not understand who he was, yet they felt the Spirit.

Quote

31Then their eyes were opened, and they recognized him; and he vanished from their sight. 32They said to each other, “Were not our hearts burning within us while he was talking to us on the road, while he was opening the scriptures to us?”

Quote

there is a lack of clear understanding… hence they didn’t feel the spirit very strong cuz their little Japanese spirit was confused too. 

Added:  I was going to respond to this as I skipped this before, but that comment is derogatory of the Japanese people and specifically of those members.  If you really want to defend them rather than make points against the Church, you should not treat someone like they were children, even in mocking something else.  There was nothing in the original quote that suggested the Japanese Americans had an immature faith or that they were confused.  You are the one placing such limitations on them.

——
Some of the most informative ideas, insight, and context to the temple ceremony I have encountered are from nonbelievers who would likely reject the Spirit is there in the temple, at least in the way we believe it is present. They may understand what the temple ceremony is and may even be appreciative of its brilliance (or may not), but not connect it with the Spirit.

My mom got me started young on studying symbols in our language, our movement, and our surroundings.  I spent many hours on her bed reading Man and his Symbols by Jung before I hit puberty.  Not quite so many reading Joseph Campbell because she got those books later.  My psych classes provided me with a more systematic way of organizing my thoughts and study.  The Old Testament was my favourite scripture from as early as I could remember (we had a book full of gorgeous classical pictures of Bible stories plus the people were just so much more interesting) and I read everything about it that I could get my hands on for a number of years.  I breezed through Skousen’s Thousand Years series, thankfully my parents had taught me to be suspicious of easy answers and the fact he put dates on everything raised a red flag for me even at that age.  Can’t remember if it was a Nibley book or something unrelated that showed me that it was better to look for explorations rather than writings that claimed to have all the answers.  

Iow, not long after I was married and first got to actually see how it worked in the here and now, I understood the temple enough to be quite comfortable within it.  This was, in fact, far sooner than I felt the Spirit because I had studied as an hobby ancient religion and symbolic language, oracles, etc since my teens.  I approached the temple in the same way I studied.  I even appreciated it like I would a visit to the museum.  It fascinated me we had such a rich religious and ridiculously extravagant tradition behind those walls and it was so dang fun for me to lose myself in the ritual (that must sound strange to many here).  All the richness that I missed in our painted concrete cold chapels devoid of most things of beauty (at least to my probably over demanding eye), practical to a fault, pretty much mass produced to be recognized around the world was there in the temple. While we might express an appreciation and fondness of our time spent in chapel walls, few outside of some older buildings are viewed as artistic treasures or even efforts and that has always bothered me.

But the temple, wow!  The temples are our love letters to God and his Son and the shadows we see of the Mother as well.  Everything we are too practical to ‘waste’ on our mostly utilitarian chapels we pour into our temples.  And from the first time I stepped into a temple I appreciated every bit of it (though some temples rate much more of my appreciation than others as I prefer rich woods and color to ivory and gold).  But the initial appreciation wasn’t spiritual, it wasn’t joy.  It was more satisfaction and delight.***

It wasn’t until I let go of my learning and love of the fine craftsmanship (Mom was an artist, she raised us to appreciate it in the most mundane things) as my primary focus and just listened to what the experience meant to me personally, why I was there, that the Spirit came.

——

Understanding does not always equal the Spirit nor does the Spirit always equal understanding. I have heard many converts speak of how they knew it was truth by the witness of the Spirit before they understood what the Gospel is.

The boy Joseph Smith had the ultimate spiritual experience and yet he understood little at that time.

The conclusion that because they did not feel the Spirit as much (they didn’t even say they couldn’t feel the Spirit at all, so even by the standards that Spirit=Understanding, they would have had some understanding of their temple experience and therefore would not be accurately labeled “clueless”) they lacked any understanding is not logical or reasonable.

***My only disliked experience of the temple really (outside of the physical issue of having to sit anywhere for very long, but that happens as much on my sofa or dining room chair as it does on a temple chair) was the polyester fabric that temple clothing is typically made out of.  We slip back into practicality there to make them easy to care for and to simplify the movement of the robes.  I wish we allowed our exuberance to explode on ourselves as much as the temple itself, but I get that we come as humble, even if hopefully joyful supplicants as well as his children to the Lord while the temple is his dwelling place and many might confuse glorifying our bodies with beautiful things as glorification of ourselves materially, an exercise in vanity rather than desiring to be a part of the beauty that is the temple.  There is also the esthetic issue that our expressions of beauty might clash not only with each other but the temple itself, distracting from the peace and order that is an essential part of the expression of heavenly beauty and the gift the temple gives us and it is hardly appropriate to start out the temple experience by having to get approval of our fashion sense as well as displaying current temple recommends.

I also greatly approve that generally speaking one isn’t struck visually by the mixing of different economic classes and instead the sense of ritual purity and community and unity is greater.  We may know that blue collar workers sit next to millionaires in the temple, but outside perhaps slightly better fitting clothing, it is not part of the temple landscape for us.  Visually we are all of one heart, one mind, externally the ideal the temple is leading us to internalize as part of the pointing us to God and heaven and the endlessness of our celestial family.  So if I had to sacrifice and wear some less than exciting white polyester, so be it (thankfully finally found some cotton clothing that will work, not anymore exciting, but definitely more comfortable).

Edited October 25, 2023 by Calm

[Duncan]

4 hours ago, Diamondhands69 said:

start your own thread and educate us

I don’t have one. Your turn 

you don't have one? so this entire thread has been for nothing? great

[Calm]

6 hours ago, Diamondhands69 said:

probably many of us learned that worldwide there was a huge language barrier for a long time.

How could there be a huge language barrier in the temples worldwide when there were no temples outside the US and Western Canada and or a long time when as soon as temples were going up, alternative languages were being offered?

[Diamondhands69]

2 hours ago, Duncan said:

you don't have one? so this entire thread has been for nothing? great

Nothing to you perhaps..  

[Diamondhands69]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

How could there be a huge language barrier in the temples worldwide when there were no temples outside the US and Western Canada and or a long time when as soon as temples were going up, alternative languages were being offered?

Anyone around the world who is lds and not an English speaker would have faced that language barrier if they visited any temple  yes? What I’m getting at is the temple was English  only right? In 1945 it went Spanish and the Japanese apparently several years after that. 

[CV75]

10 hours ago, Calm said:

How does your logic hold since you are using those who are fluent in the language to prove that those not fluent have no clue?  At best you have demonstrated it doesn’t matter whether someone is fluent or not in the language the ceremony is in, that almost anyone is going to have problems of ‘translation’…which I don’t really disagree with much. (I see bluebell and others making the same point)

——

And that triggers some thoughts not meant as a direct response to the OP (I have invested enough time and effort there already, I feel I deserve some fun).

 I think the struggle is an intended part of the temple process, if not by leadership, than by God.  The temple is where we are to come face to face with God.  That isn’t going to happen if the temple experience is like watching our favorite TV show or rom com or action movie, where we can just relax and lose ourself in the story with no real thought, no real connection except that artificially imposed on us by emoting actors and overwrought music.  We are meant to fight for our connection to the Divine, especially in the temple imo.  That struggle with God is what brings the inspiration, the revelatory experience, our own version of Jacob’s encounter where he wouldn’t let go until he received a blessing from God….which btw included a new name. (Genesis 32)

Jacob did not walk away unscathed by that experience, he walked with a limp.  Must have been painful.  I think many Saints can relate to the experience.  I worry more about Saints who say the temple is routine for them, that they understand it so well after years of attendance, it is rather boring (my father-in-law was maybe one of them, a faithful temple goer who knew the ceremony by heart, but perhaps not by soul, but perhaps he was just taking a breather to get back into the fight refreshed).  If you are struggling, there is still desire to learn, to receive wisdom from God.  You are still being pushed to cry out to God for a blessing.  There is more than just filling a seat out of duty going on even if duty is what got you there.

The temple ceremony is understandably hard to comprehend even on a basic level for a people who are not educated in ritual language and ceremonies.  It takes time to understand what is going on, to understand what is the purpose (those more familiar with religious rituals from the past that parallel the temple will be less surprised at the need to struggle and to endure that struggle, imo)…in fact the Church has intentionally avoided teaching the ritual purpose of the temple to everyone, not just nonEnglish speakers.  Leadership has chosen to only give generalized instruction.  Temple workers are specifically instructed not to tell patrons what the ritual parts mean.  Patrons are meant to comprehend meaning on their own….which means it will be unique to each.  

Part of this understanding is going to come with an emotional connection.  Many members do not have this (at least not in a positive way) because of inexperience with ritual.  The whole temple experience is another “language” for the vast majority of Latter-day Saints from what I have seen.  It makes sense to me that even those fluent with English would have a different, a deeper experience when it is in the language of their childhood, their family tongue.  It is a pity we all can’t have that opportunity imo.  I imagine many of the Japanese American Saints who had attended the temple many times had already created an understanding that connected with them spiritually, intellectually, and on a practical level and even some emotion, but hearing it in the same words that their mother and father would use to comfort and encourage them as children, in the same words that they heard when they first explored, first reached out to others and struggled with what was their place in the world…that would draw on a much deeper part of their soul and many new connotations, connections to the temple experience would be formed, probably most of them were nonverbal.

I am grateful the Church lets the temple ceremony become an individual ritual, a personalized struggle with the Divine, even if it seems at times more like they stumbled into it than it is intentional given how the temple experience is talked about by many leaders as if it is meant to beca comfortable old sweater one gets to pull on and feel protected and safe.  I only wished it was made more explicit that it will be a struggle for so many and is meant to be a struggle and it is not going to be coming home like driving up to Mom and Dad’s at Christmas and walking into a home full of familiar sounds and a load of presents to unwrap under the tree for very many at all.  Instead, the temple is going to be their chance to have their struggle at the river’s crossing and some are going to be walking away from it out of joint, disoriented even after having received their first blessing of embracing the Divine, because the embrace itself is meant to be an ongoing struggle for as long as it needs to be.  A blessing can come with a struggle at the veil as much as a welcome home embrace experience….and likely it is both at the same time for many though perhaps I am projecting here.

We need to remember and console ourselves that the struggle isn’t meant to end before the dawn for us.  For some that dawn may come in the next life, but as long as it comes that is what matters.  And that has been promised, though it can be hard to trust when everything seems to suggest otherwise.  As long as we stay through the struggle, whether that is in the temple each time we visit or we take it with us and struggle to comprehend what it all means every day of our life or in those moments where we can set ourselves apart from the world, create our own sacred space and again ask God what in the world is he trying to tell us, God can bless us, though perhaps it won’t be obviously a blessing.  I bet Jacob didn’t look on the pain in his hip as a great blessing, but that memorial to the night of his encounter with God would never be forgotten.  Chances are he recalled that face to face with God on a daily basis because of that particular ‘blessing’.  And maybe that is what he needed most.  Maybe negative feelings about the temple are a blessing from God for some because it can keep us turning to him, asking why.

Not saying it is that way for everyone.  I only know and intend to know the meaning of the temple ritual for me and that only in a small way so far, but Jacob didn’t likely understand what his inheritance given to him by God would become that night either, even if he ‘won’ the blessing from the Lord.  And I bet Job (assuming he was real) would have related to Jacob’s struggle, but wondered why his wasn’t resolved as easily.  Then there is the burning bush for Moses and the cursing of the vine for Jonah.  Each encounter with God in the scripture is a unique story of struggle for that individual.  Why would it be different for us?

Since language is both verbal and nonverbal, zero proficiency in speaking does not translate into zero communication. Otherwise, the Japanese people in the OP could not have been led to join the Church or attend the temple in the first place. I like how you mention Jacob and Moses not fully understanding as they went along, but obviously enough, with room for greater rejoicing as the Lord's promises were fulfilled in their lives.

איך אומרים "הסולם של
יעקב" ביפנית?

 !!!

[Diamondhands69]

5 hours ago, Calm said:

Why do you assume the spirit must be there if they understand and if it isn’t, they don’t?  Cannot children feel the Spirit when families are sealed together in the temple and yet do we expect them to understand very much at all?  Cannot some investigators feel the Spirit as they walk through temple open houses even before they have been taught the lessons?

elevation emotion explains lots of that.

5 hours ago, Calm said:

Lol I’m about the only one here defending the Japanese. Most have been making excuses for the church in this when there really isn’t any.  Yea I’m mocking them. Anyway find offense where you will. 

Edited October 25, 2023 by Diamondhands69

[CV75]

10 hours ago, Diamondhands69 said:

Is it wrong to learn about history and not repeat mistakes?

is it wrong to stand up for others when they don’t do it themselves? 
 

was it wrong for members to advocate for blacks before 1978? Wasn’t the white guys problem so who cares right? 
 

was it wrong for Sam young to stand up and protest bishops asking unaccompanied children about their sexual habits behind closed doors? 
 

Christians in Germany turned their backs on Jews while they were being rounded up. Maybe they should have fought back and helped someone? 
 

Is the church really different now? Members and local leaders are tolerating the church’s policy of not reporting child molests and rape and other terrible crimes … unless the law legally compels a report. How’s that working nowadays? 
 

I’ll pick up any topic I like to discuss. If you don’t like it don’t participate. 

All these things are wrong once gone about in the wrong way (the least of which are the abundant logical fallacies you employ): opinion, learning about history, not repeating mistakes, standing up for the disenfranchised, advocating for change, exercising free speech, fighting for others.

[Diamondhands69]

7 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Penalties were not given at that point before 1990, same as today, so I see no difference.

Penalties were removed in April 1990 so they were there and that is very different than today. 

[CV75]

20 minutes ago, Diamondhands69 said:

elevation emotion explains lots of that.

Lol I’m about the only one here defending the Japanese. Most have been making excuses for the church in this when there really isn’t any.  Yea I’m mocking them. Anyway find offense where you will. 

With friends like you... LOL

[webbles]

27 minutes ago, Diamondhands69 said:

Anyone around the world who is lds and not an English speaker would have faced that language barrier if they visited any temple  yes? What I’m getting at is the temple was English  only right? In 1945 it went Spanish and the Japanese apparently several years after that. 

Part of the ceremony was translated before 1920 in the Hawaii temple.  Before then, there were only the 4 temples in Utah.  The Mesa, Hawaii, and Cardston were all built at the same time.  After that, the next temple was Idaho Falls.  Then a temple was built in Switzerland.  That temple was the first one with visual/audio recording in multiple languages.  And that is because it was going to be a temple for members who would not know any English.  After that temple, the ceremony was translated into multiple languages as needed.

I think there are 4 different aspects to this language issue in the temple:

1. Being able to feel the full spirit
2. Being able to feel any of the spirit
3. Being able to understand the full ceremony
4. Being able to understand the covenants made

For a native speaker of English, they could do #3 and #4 before the ceremony was translated.  For a non-native speaker, they would have problems with #3 and #4.  The talk in the OP wasn't referring to #3 and #4 but instead to the difference between #1 and #2.  A native speaker in English could have #1 or #2 or neither.  Being able to speak the language doesn't affect how much you can feel the spirit.  A non-native speaker can do #2 or not and would only be able to do #1 if they had a gift of interpretation of tongues.  The Japanese members that the talk referenced spoke about being able to do #1 after the ceremony was fully translated and to do #2 before it was translated.

The part of the ceremony that has agency issues is #4.  That part is probably the easiest to translate and understand because it is all in the scriptures.  Considering that we know of at least one escort who helped a non-native English speaker understand the ceremony before the Hawaii temple was built, I find it extremely likely that those who were non-native speakers would be helped to be able to do #4.  They would know the covenants they are making.  They might not know everything the endowment is saying and doing, but that is fine to me.

[CV75]

1 hour ago, Diamondhands69 said:

Nothing to you perhaps..  

That's the thing: doing our best with what we have and constantly improving does not render our earlier efforts "mistakes." This characterizes the history of language translation in the Church rather than some injustice having been perpetrated by racists against those whose language had not yet been translated.

[Tacenda]

8 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Penalties were not given at that point before 1990, same as today, so I see no difference.

Okay.....

[Diamondhands69]

22 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Okay.....

Yea I thought that was good. Who is he fooling? 

[mfbukowski]

3 hours ago, Diamondhands69 said:

Penalties were removed in April 1990 so they were there and that is very different than today. 

It appeared to me that we were talking about the veil where the translation problem would be the worst.   The penalties were not even part of the veil ceremony. and it remains that way today.

[mfbukowski]

4 hours ago, webbles said:

Being able to speak the language doesn't affect how much you can feel the spirit. 

Catholics will tell you that all day and twice on Sundays.  Maybe even three times on Sunday. 

Heck, even I will tell you that having been Catholic at the start of my long journey.   

 

[mfbukowski]

3 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Okay.....

"That point" meaning the veil. I was trying to be subtle, but went too far!  🤨

[mfbukowski]

20 hours ago, Diamondhands69 said:

 Was never able to remember all that and it used to be more of a circus before they made the major adjustment to it in ‘90 I think

And so how was it more of a circus?  And what "adjustments" then made it "easier"?   All that was changed was the penalties- how did removing the penalties- which seem to me are irrelevant to the translation problem, because never were part of the veil-- so how would the loss of the penalties have any effect whatsoever on what was eventually to be memorized?  There are only a few sentences, each in its own context.

The claim to me was that removal of the penalties- which were NOT required at the veil in the first place- made the translation problem "more of a circus" because they were REMOVED.  How could something that was not used in the first place, then removed,  make the translation problem WORSE - or "more of a circus:

For those shocked by the directness here- we have now been taught that the only thing we cannot discuss are the actual words of the words which are taught and then used at the veil. I consider these sacred as well of course, but I think the church in this situation made a good call in making it a little easier to discuss in public 

Edited October 25, 2023 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

error- dubplicate

Re:edit. Yes a typo but I like it!!

Edited October 25, 2023 by mfbukowski

[Diamondhands69]

2 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

And so how was it more of a circus?  And what "adjustments" then made it "easier"?   All that was changed was the penalties- how did removing the penalties- which seem to me are irrelevant to the translation problem, because never were part of the veil-- so how would the loss of the penalties have any effect whatsoever on what was eventually to be memorized?  There are only a few sentences, each in its own context.

The claim to me was that removal of the penalties- which were NOT required at the veil in the first place- made the translation problem "more of a circus" because they were REMOVED.  How could something that was not used in the first place, then removed,  make the translation problem WORSE - or "more of a circus:

For those shocked by the directness here- we have now been taught that the only thing we cannot discuss are the actual words of the words which are taught and then used at the veil. I consider these sacred as well of course, but I think the church in this situation made a good call in making it a little easier to discuss in public 

I’m not sure why you are trying to derail the thread. We are talking about Japanese translation of the endowment. 
 

if you want to discuss the endowment itself start another thread. Thanks 

[Tacenda]

6 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

"That point" meaning the veil. I was trying to be subtle, but went too far!  🤨

No worries! Thanks for clarifying. 

[mfbukowski]

53 minutes ago, Diamondhands69 said:

I’m not sure why you are trying to derail the thread. We are talking about Japanese translation of the endowment. 
 

if you want to discuss the endowment itself start another thread. Thanks 

It was a reply to a point you raised, and was about all translations to any natural language, and since Japanese is a natural language, it is included.  🙂

Edited October 26, 2023 by mfbukowski

[Diamondhands69]

20 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

It was a reply to a point you raised, and was about all translations to any natural language, and since Japanese is a natural language, it is included.  🙂

You are wanting to discuss the endowment, it’s changes etc. that has nothing to do with Japanese language. 
 

if you feel so inclined. Go ahead I can’t stop you. It’s a free country but not a free forum. I won’t be discussing endowment details with you. It is irrelevant. Bye

Edited October 26, 2023 by Diamondhands69

[mfbukowski]

7 hours ago, Diamondhands69 said:

You are wanting to discuss the endowment, it’s changes etc. that has nothing to do with Japanese language. 
 

if you feel so inclined. Go ahead I can’t stop you. It’s a free country but not a free forum. I won’t be discussing endowment details with you. It is irrelevant. Bye

No, actually I said I did not want to discuss the endowment, but gladly, goodbye. If anyone actually cares the discussion speaks for itself.