Members attended endowment sessions in foreign language. They could not understand…

[Diamondhands69]

1 hour ago, Stormin' Mormon said:

In 1898, the LDS Church was $2 million in debt.  The CPI calculator at bls.gov doesn't go back that far, but it does go back to 1913.  Close enough, says me.  And in 1913, $2 million was the equivalent of $62.8 million dollars in today's dollars.  That was roughly $7.50 per member of the Church, which doesn't sound like much.  But if we apply an inflation adjustment to that $7.50 we come up with a modern day equivalent of $235.55.  If the Church today owed a debt equal to $235 per member, we'd be in hock for $3.9 billion (with a B). 

All that to say: the LDS Church in the first half of the 20th century was indeed doing hard things. Climbing out of a debt that huge ought to excuse it from attempting to tackle other hard things.  And yet, the Church could walk and chew gum at the same time.  While it was putting away this mountain of debt, it transitioned to a policy of building Zion in situ, it established a durable welfare program, and it doubled the number of temples in operation. All of which impacted the very survival of the Church.  I think it can be forgiven for putting off temple translation until a later date when it had the time, resources, and breathing room to do so.  

What does money have to do with anything? The church has mastered the art of convincing people to give up their very lives for it if need be. Just put a Japanese high priest ( cuz a woman surely wouldn’t be permitted) in a calling to translate the ceremony for free. The rest of the church works that way. 

[Tacenda]

7 hours ago, Diamondhands69 said:

Here’s a novel concept… use a recording. Recording devices existed even before WW2 so there is no excuse. 

love it how many like to make it seem an impossible task for the church to do. They even have some of the membership conditioned to make excuses for everything. bottom line-no one cared if the brown or yellow people got the right message or any message at all. Eventually they did, but they slow rolled it. 

Well in all honesty, everyone's first time going in was done kind of wrong, especially when consenting to go through it all and not knowing what we are consenting to do beforehand. Or being invited to leave before we know what we're about to do. 

[Diamondhands69]

7 hours ago, webbles said:

By the way, the Spanish translation for the complete Doctrine and Covenants didn't happen till 1948 (French is even later at 1958).  The first Spanish translation of the temple ceremony was 1944.  The first Danish translation of the Doctrine and Covenants was 1852 and yet they didn't get a temple translation till after 1955.  I'm more surprised that Spanish was the first temple translation than how long it took to translate the ceremony for the first time.

Where was the seer stone all this time? We had a dozen prophets. Seers and revelators on hand at all times yet no one could translate modern languages? I think it is all about motivation and lack of desire. If the seer stone really worked then why not use it??

seriously.. why not? It’s sitting there gathering dust whilst being hidden from the world. It’s very existence unknown to virtually everyone except a prophet or two. Maybe they didn’t buy into its capabilities? 

Edited October 25, 2023 by Diamondhands69

[Calm]

3 hours ago, bluebell said:

It doesn't work to blame this issue on racism when the first language the church did translate the endowment into was Spanish (in 1945).  I don't think it was translated into any European languages until 1953.  

Which given the great success it had initially with Scandinavian countries is surprising**.  There were 9000 Swedes who came to Utah in the 1800s***, almost 17,000 Danes****.  They had communities in Utah that produced newspapers in Swedish, Danish etc, had drama societies and so on, so they had many, many, many more whose native languages were those originally than Spanish and yet no one bothered to translate them.  They even had Danes in church leadership positions, one was a First Presidency counselor and Church Historian, and yet no Danish temple ceremony until the Bern temple was constructed.

Quote

The federal census of 1910 showed Utah's Swedish-born population at its peak, with 7,227. In that year, Swedish-Americans and their children in Utah numbered 17,063, or 4.6 percent of the state's population.

https://www.uen.org/utah_history_encyclopedia/s/SWEDISH_IMMIGRANTS_IN_UTAH.shtml#:~:text=While Utah had no exclusively,known thereafter as Swede Town.

As an interesting side note, there were more Samoans in the Church in 1945 than Mexicans.  

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Church_of_Jesus_Christ_of_Latter-day_Saints_in_the_Samoan_Islands

**total number of Scandinavians coming to Utah was almost 30,000

***There weren’t that many Mexicans in the Church until almost 1960.  There wasn’t a Central American mission until 1952.  The first Guatemalan was baptized in 1948, a year after missionaries first entered the country.  There doesn’t seem to have been much missionary work south of Mexico prior to that time. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Church_of_Jesus_Christ_of_Latter-day_Saints_in_Guatemala#:~:text=The first missionaries arrived in,recognition in Guatemala in 1966.

****https://www.uen.org/utah_history_encyclopedia/d/DANISH_IMMIGRATION.shtml#:~:text=Denmark supplied more immigrants,to the enticements of America.

Quote

The number of Danish natives living in Utah peaked in 1900 at 9,132 and then declined gradually as more died than immigrated. Yet as late as 1960, Danes and their children made up one-tenth of the state's "foreign stock"--residents who either were born outside the United States or had at least one parent born outside the US. While the 1980 census estimated that only 998 Utah residents were born in Denmark, 137,941 Utahans had at least one Danish ancestor. Continuing interchange with Denmark was facilitated by a Danish consulate for Utah and Nevada in Salt Lake City.

 

[Calm]

5 hours ago, bluebell said:

Even thought it was equally applicable for white people who didn't speak English?

Apparently they don’t count…

[webbles]

13 minutes ago, Diamondhands69 said:

Where was the seer stone all this time? We had a dozen prophets. Seers and revelatory on hand at all times yet no one could translate modern languages? I think it is all about motivation and lack of desire. If the seer stone really worked then why not use it??

seriously.. why not? It’s sitting there gathering dust whilst being hidden from the world. It’s very existence unknown to virtually everyone except a prophet or two. Maybe they didn’t buy into its capabilities? 

I agree that there was a lack of desire or a motivation to translate the ceremony.  Originally, we were taught to migrate to Zion.  Thousands of people who couldn't speak English migrated to Utah and received their endowments with minimal knowledge of English.  The only translations that were done were the Book of Mormon and pieces of the Doctrine of Covenants and Pearl of Great Price.  But that was for missionary work.  The idea of translating the temple ceremonies didn't really start until after saints were told to stay where they were and temples were built closer to them.  When the Hawaii temple was built, the ceremony was partially translated into Hawaiian.  It is possible the ceremony was partially translated into Spanish at the Mesa temple, but that temple was more for the English speaking saints, not the Spanish speaking saints farther south in Mexico (which weren't very many at the time).  When the Spanish speaking saints grew in a large enough number, then the idea of actually having a Spanish official translation was born.  And when the Switzerland temple was planned, the idea of having multiple language translations using a recording was born.

It is possible to look at that and say it is just the normal outgrowth of the church's expansion and that there was no higher guidance.  And I have no problem with that view.

[Diamondhands69]

39 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Well in all honesty, everyone's first time going in was done kind of wrong, especially when consenting to go through it all and not knowing what we are consenting to do beforehand. Or being invited to leave before we know what we're about to do. 

Agreed. My temple prep class may as well have been geometry because we were taught exactly zero about what was about to happen. 
 

I came home from the first time through and I mentioned that I was kinda stunned at all the weirdness of everything and how come no one told me what was going to go on. The response was to get screamed at for an hour about lack of faith and kicking against the pricks … bla bla same old hard liner yelling lecture. Anyway they were prob more pissed I told em I didn’t want to go on a mission and had zero testimony ( nothing has changed). Can u believe my bishop and sp signed my recommend when I was openly saying that? Yep we are gonna fix him- make him go anyway. I think they were thinking I’d get trauma bonded to the church and get a testimony that way…. Lol

Edited October 25, 2023 by Diamondhands69

[mfbukowski]

5 hours ago, bluebell said:

Even thought it was equally applicable for white people who didn't speak English?

I'm wondering how getting through the Veil could work? Cards? Verbal translations?

Something's missing here.

[Diamondhands69]

12 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

I'm wondering how getting through the Veil could work? Cards? Verbal translations?

Something's missing here.

 Was never able to remember all that and it used to be more of a circus before they made the major adjustment to it in ‘90 I think

[Stormin' Mormon]

58 minutes ago, Diamondhands69 said:

What does money have to do with anything? The church has mastered the art of convincing people to give up their very lives for it if need be. Just put a Japanese high priest ( cuz a woman surely wouldn’t be permitted) in a calling to translate the ceremony for free. The rest of the church works that way. 

This was in response to a comment you made about the difficulty of implementing recording technologies in the temple ceremony during the first half of the 20th century. That they could have gotten free translation from a faithful babushka is irrelevant to that aspect of your argument.

[bluebell]

40 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

I'm wondering how getting through the Veil could work? Cards? Verbal translations?

Something's missing here.

I read on a non-church site that often somebody would be there to translate as it went, or at least translate, the real pertinent parts (for lack of a better way to say it). I’ll see if I can find the link.

https://www.templefacts.org/post/temple-languages

Edited October 25, 2023 by bluebell

[Diamondhands69]

11 minutes ago, Stormin' Mormon said:

This was in response to a comment you made about the difficulty of implementing recording technologies in the temple ceremony during the first half of the 20th century. That they could have gotten free translation from a faithful babushka is irrelevant to that aspect of your argument.

Ok

[Calm]

12 hours ago, Diamondhands69 said:

14 hours ago, CV75 said:

Not being fluent is not the same as "no clue what was going on or what they were covenanting."…

Uh yea it does. Most native English speakers leave the temple their first time wondering what just happened.

How does your logic hold since you are using those who are fluent in the language to prove that those not fluent have no clue?  At best you have demonstrated it doesn’t matter whether someone is fluent or not in the language the ceremony is in, that almost anyone is going to have problems of ‘translation’…which I don’t really disagree with much. (I see bluebell and others making the same point)

——

And that triggers some thoughts not meant as a direct response to the OP (I have invested enough time and effort there already, I feel I deserve some fun).

 I think the struggle is an intended part of the temple process, if not by leadership, than by God.  The temple is where we are to come face to face with God.  That isn’t going to happen if the temple experience is like watching our favorite TV show or rom com or action movie, where we can just relax and lose ourself in the story with no real thought, no real connection except that artificially imposed on us by emoting actors and overwrought music.  We are meant to fight for our connection to the Divine, especially in the temple imo.  That struggle with God is what brings the inspiration, the revelatory experience, our own version of Jacob’s encounter where he wouldn’t let go until he received a blessing from God….which btw included a new name. (Genesis 32)

Jacob did not walk away unscathed by that experience, he walked with a limp.  Must have been painful.  I think many Saints can relate to the experience.  I worry more about Saints who say the temple is routine for them, that they understand it so well after years of attendance, it is rather boring (my father-in-law was maybe one of them, a faithful temple goer who knew the ceremony by heart, but perhaps not by soul, but perhaps he was just taking a breather to get back into the fight refreshed).  If you are struggling, there is still desire to learn, to receive wisdom from God.  You are still being pushed to cry out to God for a blessing.  There is more than just filling a seat out of duty going on even if duty is what got you there.

The temple ceremony is understandably hard to comprehend even on a basic level for a people who are not educated in ritual language and ceremonies.  It takes time to understand what is going on, to understand what is the purpose (those more familiar with religious rituals from the past that parallel the temple will be less surprised at the need to struggle and to endure that struggle, imo)…in fact the Church has intentionally avoided teaching the ritual purpose of the temple to everyone, not just nonEnglish speakers.  Leadership has chosen to only give generalized instruction.  Temple workers are specifically instructed not to tell patrons what the ritual parts mean.  Patrons are meant to comprehend meaning on their own….which means it will be unique to each.  

Part of this understanding is going to come with an emotional connection.  Many members do not have this (at least not in a positive way) because of inexperience with ritual.  The whole temple experience is another “language” for the vast majority of Latter-day Saints from what I have seen.  It makes sense to me that even those fluent with English would have a different, a deeper experience when it is in the language of their childhood, their family tongue.  It is a pity we all can’t have that opportunity imo.  I imagine many of the Japanese American Saints who had attended the temple many times had already created an understanding that connected with them spiritually, intellectually, and on a practical level and even some emotion, but hearing it in the same words that their mother and father would use to comfort and encourage them as children, in the same words that they heard when they first explored, first reached out to others and struggled with what was their place in the world…that would draw on a much deeper part of their soul and many new connotations, connections to the temple experience would be formed, probably most of them were nonverbal.

I am grateful the Church lets the temple ceremony become an individual ritual, a personalized struggle with the Divine, even if it seems at times more like they stumbled into it than it is intentional given how the temple experience is talked about by many leaders as if it is meant to beca comfortable old sweater one gets to pull on and feel protected and safe.  I only wished it was made more explicit that it will be a struggle for so many and is meant to be a struggle and it is not going to be coming home like driving up to Mom and Dad’s at Christmas and walking into a home full of familiar sounds and a load of presents to unwrap under the tree for very many at all.  Instead, the temple is going to be their chance to have their struggle at the river’s crossing and some are going to be walking away from it out of joint, disoriented even after having received their first blessing of embracing the Divine, because the embrace itself is meant to be an ongoing struggle for as long as it needs to be.  A blessing can come with a struggle at the veil as much as a welcome home embrace experience….and likely it is both at the same time for many though perhaps I am projecting here.

We need to remember and console ourselves that the struggle isn’t meant to end before the dawn for us.  For some that dawn may come in the next life, but as long as it comes that is what matters.  And that has been promised, though it can be hard to trust when everything seems to suggest otherwise.  As long as we stay through the struggle, whether that is in the temple each time we visit or we take it with us and struggle to comprehend what it all means every day of our life or in those moments where we can set ourselves apart from the world, create our own sacred space and again ask God what in the world is he trying to tell us, God can bless us, though perhaps it won’t be obviously a blessing.  I bet Jacob didn’t look on the pain in his hip as a great blessing, but that memorial to the night of his encounter with God would never be forgotten.  Chances are he recalled that face to face with God on a daily basis because of that particular ‘blessing’.  And maybe that is what he needed most.  Maybe negative feelings about the temple are a blessing from God for some because it can keep us turning to him, asking why.

Not saying it is that way for everyone.  I only know and intend to know the meaning of the temple ritual for me and that only in a small way so far, but Jacob didn’t likely understand what his inheritance given to him by God would become that night either, even if he ‘won’ the blessing from the Lord.  And I bet Job (assuming he was real) would have related to Jacob’s struggle, but wondered why his wasn’t resolved as easily.  Then there is the burning bush for Moses and the cursing of the vine for Jonah.  Each encounter with God in the scripture is a unique story of struggle for that individual.  Why would it be different for us?

Edited October 25, 2023 by Calm

[Calm]

8 hours ago, webbles said:

The idea of translating the temple ceremonies didn't really start until after saints were told to stay where they were and temples were built closer to them. 

This.  

Leaders also didn’t allow any language wards but English in Utah and other settlements, even when there were more than enough to make a stake as while there were no towns that were all Swedish or Danish, immigrants often were a majority in towns and in a couple of counties (see previous links).  There was an expectation they would learn English.  My guess is part of this was a desire to have a unified community; “of one heart” got translated in part to “of one language”.  There would be no more “ites” among them in Zion, no Americans, Canadians, Danes, Swedes, Germans, English, Scots, not even Mexicans or Japanese (I was quite surprised that there were significant numbers of Japanese immigrating to Utah starting in the 1880s)….just a community of Saints….at least while worshipping that hopefully would expand to outside the chapels and temples.

It was the ideal of the American Melting Pot modified by Latter-day Saint scripture and beliefs. (I think I prefer the Tapestry or Mosaic that is the Canadian way of expressing a similar idea, the threads or tiles retain their uniqueness as they contribute to the complete picture…tapestry is the best imo because the threads are interwoven and must stay together or the whole thing frays and falls apart eventually).

Once they started building temples outside of the US and Canada (Bern being the first as mentioned by various posts)that changed on a systematic basis, but you have shown individual accommodations were made.  Sounds like today where there are guidelines, but leaders adjust to individual needs when the norm can’t be met, such as bringing the sacrament into individual homes even though one purpose of it is to share it communally iirc.

Edited October 25, 2023 by Calm

[Diamondhands69]

9 hours ago, Duncan said:

Why are you worried about people you don't know and situations you weren't involved in? The Church is different now, live in 2023 for $%&&* sakes

Is it wrong to learn about history and not repeat mistakes?

is it wrong to stand up for others when they don’t do it themselves? 
 

was it wrong for members to advocate for blacks before 1978? Wasn’t the white guys problem so who cares right? 
 

was it wrong for Sam young to stand up and protest bishops asking unaccompanied children about their sexual habits behind closed doors? 
 

Christians in Germany turned their backs on Jews while they were being rounded up. Maybe they should have fought back and helped someone? 
 

Is the church really different now? Members and local leaders are tolerating the church’s policy of not reporting child molests and rape and other terrible crimes … unless the law legally compels a report. How’s that working nowadays? 
 

I’ll pick up any topic I like to discuss. If you don’t like it don’t participate. 

Edited October 25, 2023 by Diamondhands69

[Rain]

1 hour ago, Diamondhands69 said:

Agreed. My temple prep class may as well have been geometry because we were taught exactly zero about what was about to happen. 
 

I came home from the first time through and I mentioned that I was kinda stunned at all the weirdness of everything and how come no one told me what was going to go on. The response was to get screamed at for an hour about lack of faith and kicking against the pricks … bla bla same old hard liner yelling lecture. Anyway they were prob more pissed I told em I didn’t want to go on a mission and had zero testimony ( nothing has changed). Can u believe my bishop and sp signed my recommend when I was openly saying that? Yep we are gonna fix him- make him go anyway. I think they were thinking I’d get trauma bonded to the church and get a testimony that way…. Lol

Honest question - what did you want to happen with your OP? Gain from some understanding? Debate? Vent? Get some validation for your feelings? Throw barbs? Teach people?

I ask because sometimes people seem a little hostile, but when I start asking they are coming from a very different place. I would like to know your intentions so I can best know how to meet your needs within this thread.

 

[Calm]

3 minutes ago, Diamondhands69 said:

Is it wrong to learn about history and not repeat mistakes?

But are you learning about history (since you appear to be ignoring the historical info provided for you in this thread) or are you more projecting your own experience on these Saints?

I do think leaders should be listening to members who have difficult experiences in the temple, but confusing different experiences and assuming a one size issue fits all for them has problems of its own.

Edited October 25, 2023 by Calm

[Diamondhands69]

31 minutes ago, Rain said:

Honest question - what did you want to happen with your OP? Gain from some understanding? Debate? Vent? Get some validation for your feelings? Throw barbs? Teach people?

I ask because sometimes people seem a little hostile, but when I start asking they are coming from a very different place. I would like to know your intentions so I can best know how to meet your needs within this thread.

 

I honestly figure people would be a bit taken aback by the whole thing. The church  is so “pro agency” and truth etc, but in practice we have nonsense like this happening. Lack of agency due to not understanding and then making an eternal covenant by copying everyone else saying yes and you have no clue what was said. I suppose one could stand up and protest but let’s face it- no one will do that esp in the temple. 
 

How is it we expect people to go to the temple and go through all that and hinder them with language barriers the church obviously could control-they just chose not to? 
 

Seems to me the language thing coupled with all the secrecy contained in the temple endowment now that it was never meant to be understood. I really believe the church leadership doesn’t even care if people grasp it just so long as they go. 

I post this here as I never heard such a thing and probably many of us learned that worldwide there was a huge language barrier for a long time. I even brought up the seer stone half jokingly but really- why wasn’t it used instead of hidden from literally everyone? Is it not important for every eight by member to attend the temple and get sealed etc?? Did we not have any prophets with the faith to use it? I’m thinking not. If not why are they the prophet? 
 

Isn’t it important for every person going through to have a clear understanding of what their covenants are they promised to keep? I guess not if it was / is ok to run people through an endowment assembly line only to come out the other end in many cases with those looks on their faces we have all seen - the look of bewilderment. 
 

I really don’t think anyone at the G level cares if the endowment is understood by anyone. 
 

It generated some excitement for sure. Good times had by all.

and we learned something. No lazy learners here. This is a discussion that would be impossible to have in church. 
 

 

 

 

[Diamondhands69]

51 minutes ago, Calm said:

But are you learning about history (since you appear to be ignoring the historical info provided for you in this thread) or are you more projecting your own experience on these Saints?

Where did I say I didn’t learn anything? Projecting?? They themselves said they didn’t understand. That’s what caught my attention. I was like well yea it was in a foreign language of course you don’t understand.  

51 minutes ago, Calm said:

I do think leaders should be listening to members who have difficult experiences in the temple, but confusing different experiences and assuming a one size issue fits all for them has problems of its own.

The problem is the church has decided a one size fits all solution is the solution. Not only in the temple but in pretty much everything. 
 

we had a few families in our Spanish branch throw a party in the cultural hall after Saturday baptisms to celebrate. It was shut down by the stake after they started playing music and dancing. Why? We don’t do that. You belong to our culture. 
 

One size fits all with the Indian placement program. I’ll have to post my family experience with that. We had several navajo kids— that’s for a different day. 

[Calm]

11 minutes ago, Diamondhands69 said:

They themselves said they didn’t understand.

Where did they say that?

[Duncan]

1 hour ago, Diamondhands69 said:

Is it wrong to learn about history and not repeat mistakes?

is it wrong to stand up for others when they don’t do it themselves? 

The church already did that, YEARS ago.

 

1 hour ago, Diamondhands69 said:

was it wrong for members to advocate for blacks before 1978? Wasn’t the white guys problem so who cares right? 
 

was it wrong for Sam young to stand up and protest bishops asking unaccompanied children about their sexual habits behind closed doors? 
 

Christians in Germany turned their backs on Jews while they were being rounded up. Maybe they should have fought back and helped someone? 

all of which have nothing to do with the translation of the endowment ceremony in other languages

your total ignorance of Christianity in Germany before and during WW2 is telling. I say this as my father was a christian in Germany at that time. 

1 hour ago, Diamondhands69 said:

Is the church really different now? Members and local leaders are tolerating the church’s policy of not reporting child molests and rape and other terrible crimes … unless the law legally compels a report. How’s that working nowadays? 
 

I’ll pick up any topic I like to discuss. If you don’t like it don’t participate. 

yes, it is different now, if you bother to live in the "now"

if you don't like the church then don't participate

[Diamondhands69]

15 minutes ago, Duncan said:

The church already did that, YEARS ago.

 

So there is no value in learning history and how problems were solved? Just do long as someone fixed it. 
 

Sounds like a way to inevitable have to reinvent the wheel some day. Yea no value in learning history. Well just if it is church history. 

15 minutes ago, Duncan said:

your total ignorance of Christianity in Germany before and during WW2 is telling. I say this as my father was a christian in Germany at that time. 
 

Here’s the little bit I do know. Bishop called by god sent a kid to his inevitable execution to appease the nazis

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helmuth_Hübener

15 minutes ago, Duncan said:

if you don't like the church then don't participate

Nice comment brother Rockwell . Does your prophet know you talk to people like that? 

[Diamondhands69]

41 minutes ago, Calm said:

Where did they say that?

I’m the comment I posted in the op.   They never felt the spirit like that tillthey heard it in their own language. They didn’t understand it.

Do you speak multiple languages? If you do you know nothing translates directly that’s why the message gets garbled and there is a lack of clear understanding… hence they didn’t feel the spirit very strong cuz their little Japanese spirit was confused too. 
 

just like I understand what the quote says snd means to me and you want to debate exact words because I suppose you may not infer meaning in English. Works like that too in exchanging ideas in two different languages. 

Edited October 25, 2023 by Diamondhands69

[Duncan]

24 minutes ago, Diamondhands69 said:

So there is no value in learning history and how problems were solved? Just do long as someone fixed it. 

yes, but that isn't what you are doing

 

24 minutes ago, Diamondhands69 said:

Sounds like a way to inevitable have to reinvent the wheel some day. Yea no value in learning history. Well just if it is church history. 

see?

 

25 minutes ago, Diamondhands69 said:

Here’s the little bit I do know. Bishop called by god sent a kid to his inevitable execution to appease the nazis

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helmuth_Hübener

that isn't enough knowledge by a long shot

 

26 minutes ago, Diamondhands69 said:

Nice comment brother Rockwell . Does your prophet know you talk to people like that? 

does yours?

[Diamondhands69]

1 minute ago, Duncan said:

that isn't enough knowledge by a long shot

start your own thread and educate us

1 minute ago, Duncan said:

 

does yours?

I don’t have one. Your turn