NPR: Why children of married parents do better, but America is moving the other way

[Nofear]

An interesting NPR article: Why children of married parents do better, but America is moving the other way

Has good stuff in it: statistics and data, discussion of single mothers and fathers, a little bit of politics, etc.
The article's impetus material is a new book by author Melissa Kearney. She almost seems to think that facts and reality matter when trying to form opinions about things. A rather novel approach I must say.

Edited October 22, 2023 by Nofear

[Calm]

20 minutes ago, Nofear said:

She almost seems to think that facts and reality matter when trying to form opinions about things. A rather novel approach I must say.

A bit snide today.   

[Calm]

Quote

Her argument goes against the trend in the U.S.; American children are increasingly being born and raised by single mothers. The U.S. has the world's highest rate of children living in single-parent households, according to a 2019 Pew Research Center study. Almost a quarter, or 23% of U.S. children under age 18, live with one parent and no other adults.

Interesting given we have been more religious than many countries.

I wonder if there is correlation with abortion rates (do we have a lower one, so more single parents?).

[The Nehor]

54 minutes ago, Calm said:

A bit snide today.   

To be fair the book is:

The Two-Parent Privilege: How Americans Stopped Getting Married and Started Falling Behind.

That is a sarcastic and snide title. I can respect that.

Quote

"I've done exactly what I wanted, which was to start a conversation," Kearney tells NPR. "But I get frustrated that a lot of the initial reaction is an initial knee jerk reaction."

Oh shut up. You got exactly the reaction you wanted.

[Buckeye]

This is an important topic. I wish we’d see more attempts to find common ground and progress rather than attack the data and entrench our battle lines. 
 

The reality is that women want marriage at similar rates as in the past. What’s changed is women now have more education and choices (yeah) but men have become relatively less valuable and needed, particularly those with little education or drive (boo). So, many women make the rationale decision to not marry into a situation that on net worsens their lives. 
 

The primary solution should be clear, though not easy. We need to reinvest in men. Build up education and drive, yes. But also expand their roles to include the good that women have traditionally done in nurturing roles. Society cheers when a woman becomes a CEO (as it should). We’re not yet comfortable cheering her husband who stays at home with the kids. That needs to change. 
 

Since this is a LDS forum, I’ll note we should start with our own house. Let’s improve the PotF. Christ provided, presided, and protected. But the most important work he did was to nurture. We need to improve our teachings to build up nurturing men. 

[bluebell]

From the young adult sisters I've been talking to, the men in their dating pool have no real interest in dating seriously.  They want to have fun but not move beyond that.  I'm not sure if it's a fear of responsibility or what.  The girls didn't really know either but they are really struggling with it.

[Buckeye]

15 minutes ago, bluebell said:

From the young adult sisters I've been talking to, the men in their dating pool have no real interest in dating seriously.  They want to have fun but not move beyond that.  I'm not sure if it's a fear of responsibility or what.  The girls didn't really know either but they are really struggling with it.

I’ve seen this too. I think many of our young men feel no urgency to move into married life because their single life is good and there’s an endless pool of amazing young women. 

It’s not fair to the young women, but I don’t have an easy solution. One course I do recommend to them is to take initiative. Ask YM on dates. Pay your share. Encourage them to ask you out and, when the time is right, you can propose too. That may seem aggressive and off-putting to some YM but those YM would either have already asked you out or never would, so there’s not a real loss. 

[Calm]

14 minutes ago, Buckeye said:

I’ve seen this too. I think many of our young men feel no urgency to move into married life because their single life is good and there’s an endless pool of amazing young women. 

It’s not fair to the young women, but I don’t have an easy solution. One course I do recommend to them is to take initiative. Ask YM on dates. Pay your share. Encourage them to ask you out and, when the time is right, you can propose too. That may seem aggressive and off-putting to some YM but those YM would either have already asked you out or never would, so there’s not a real loss. 

Before my future husband and I were seriously dating, we basically took turns asking each other out.  It helped him because it showed him I was interested and it helped me because I could concentrate on my school work rather than wondering if he was going to call because he could be rather forgetful or unsure and it would be later in the week….plus he started assuming dating was a given before I did, lol….yes, I know it is a contradiction that he assumed we were an item at the same time as being unsure, but he had hang ups just like everyone else and feelings of not being good enough were one of them (I think they come standard in the mortality package actually, though his were rather persistent).

Edited October 23, 2023 by Calm

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

From the young adult sisters I've been talking to, the men in their dating pool have no real interest in dating seriously.  They want to have fun but not move beyond that.  I'm not sure if it's a fear of responsibility or what.  The girls didn't really know either but they are really struggling with it.

There is a fair amount of despair about actually being able to provide for a family.

[blackstrap]

12 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

There is a fair amount of despair about actually being able to provide for a family.

True. The ability to have a home and a middle class lifestyle is quickly fading . That and the 50% failure rate which is financially and emotionally very costly, makes marriage much less appealing. Of course , society's acceptance of hookup culture does not help. 

[The Nehor]

3 minutes ago, blackstrap said:

True. The ability to have a home and a middle class lifestyle is quickly fading . That and the 50% failure rate which is financially and emotionally very costly, makes marriage much less appealing. Of course , society's acceptance of hookup culture does not help. 

It might be more culturally accepted but there aren’t that many actually doing the hookup thing compared to previous generations.

https://www.nbcnews.com/health/sexual-health/what-hookup-culture-millennials-having-less-sex-their-parents-n621746

Probably the same problem. When it is hard to live on your own or support a family it is easy to delay other adult activities too.

[Thinking]

3 hours ago, Buckeye said:

The reality is that women want marriage at similar rates as in the past. What’s changed is women now have more education and choices (yeah) but men have become relatively less valuable and needed, particularly those with little education or drive (boo). So, many women make the rationale decision to not marry into a situation that on net worsens their lives.

I suspect that the anecdotal example I am going to share happens more than it should.

During my active days I had a PPI with the quorum leader at his apartment. He was sitting on the sofa right next to the kitchen and I was sitting across from him on the love seat. Just as we were about to begin he called to his wife who was upstairs. She came down the stairs to see what he wanted. "Will you get me a glass of water?" She hurried into the kitchen and poured him a glass of water.

I was shocked but have learned about other men (LDS and non-LDS) who expect their wives to wait on them.

[MustardSeed]

Our youth in the US are living for today. I can hardly judge them- it’s not good or even right but it just is what it is.  People born after 1985 were essentially raised on Columbine and 9/11 culture, and the idea that Earth is dying (and COVID to boot) has folks living without long term perspective, without hope, and little thought of investment, monetarily or financially.  Marriage, religion, family -  these things are investments. 

[Kenngo1969]

In this life, there are plenty of reasons for even the best of us to despair ... But, also, there are plenty of reasons (especially for Latter-day Saints, but, certainly, for people of good will of varying stripes) to have hope, both for the apex of what will happen on this Earth (though, admittedly, getting there will be a bumpy ride) and for what we can expect in the life to come.

• Ether 12:4
• Romans 8:24-25
• John 16:33
• 2 Corinthians 4:6, 8-9
• And Etc.

[Calm]

2 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

Our youth in the US are living for today. I can hardly judge them- it’s not good or even right but it just is what it is.  People born after 1985 were essentially raised on Columbine and 9/11 culture, and the idea that Earth is dying (and COVID to boot) has folks living without long term perspective, without hope, and little thought of investment, monetarily or financially.  Marriage, religion, family -  these things are investments. 

I know of several who don’t feel comfortable bringing children into a situation where as parents they believe they would be dooming their children to a pretty awful future.  Most said they would consider adopting, but that has its own costs that many won’t be able to afford.

[Peacefully]

8 hours ago, blackstrap said:

True. The ability to have a home and a middle class lifestyle is quickly fading . That and the 50% failure rate which is financially and emotionally very costly, makes marriage much less appealing. Of course , society's acceptance of hookup culture does not help. 

Hookup culture has been around for a long time. It was alive and well when I was into the club scene in the 80s. 

Edited October 23, 2023 by Peacefully

[Nofear]

11 hours ago, Buckeye said:

The reality is that women want marriage at similar rates as in the past. What’s changed is women now have more education and choices (yeah) but men have become relatively less valuable and needed, particularly those with little education or drive (boo). So, many women make the rationale decision to not marry into a situation that on net worsens their lives. 

The primary solution should be clear, though not easy. We need to reinvest in men. Build up education and drive, yes. But also expand their roles to include the good that women have traditionally done in nurturing roles. Society cheers when a woman becomes a CEO (as it should). We’re not yet comfortable cheering her husband who stays at home with the kids. That needs to change.

There are quite a few people who agree with some of your sentiments, some good, some bad. An example of a bad one is: MGTOW. It is not one I advocate for. In many ways it is the antithesis of what the Gospel asks of men today (as described by the op-ed in my other recent thread start).

https://mensgroup.com/mgtow/

[Rain]

10 hours ago, The Nehor said:

There is a fair amount of despair about actually being able to provide for a family.

I get that, but it is not a new thing. 32 years ago my husband to be worried about that. He kept waiting for me to get a better job.  Funny thing was I wasn't doing that because all the better jobs I could get were at times he would be available- we would never see each other. 

We didn't discover we were thinking opposite of each other till after we were married.  If we had talked about it ww might have been married sooner.

[Rain]

13 hours ago, The Nehor said:

To be fair the book is:

The Two-Parent Privilege: How Americans Stopped Getting Married and Started Falling Behind.

That is a sarcastic and snide title. I can respect that.

Oh shut up. You got exactly the reaction you wanted.

I don't see it as snide.  What about it makes you see it that way?

[Rain]

9 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

Our youth in the US are living for today. I can hardly judge them- it’s not good or even right but it just is what it is.  People born after 1985 were essentially raised on Columbine and 9/11 culture, and the idea that Earth is dying (and COVID to boot) has folks living without long term perspective, without hope, and little thought of investment, monetarily or financially.  Marriage, religion, family -  these things are investments. 

But earlier generations dealt with 2 world wars. Is the difference that Columbine and 9/11 were on American soil and if so is this just an American thing?

Edited October 23, 2023 by Rain

[MustardSeed]

21 minutes ago, Rain said:

But earlier generations dealt with 2 world wars. Is tge difference that Columbine and 9/11 were on American soil and if so is this just an American thing?

The war was not threatening children personally here in the us.  Since columbine, schools are targets and shooter drills are our children’s normal

[bluebell]

10 hours ago, The Nehor said:

There is a fair amount of despair about actually being able to provide for a family.

Agreed.  And I think a lot of young people that have no interest in taking on that challenge even if they see it as possible.  They'd rather have a life that is centered on their personal needs and freedom to do focus on self fulfillment.  

[bluebell]

9 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

Our youth in the US are living for today. I can hardly judge them- it’s not good or even right but it just is what it is.  People born after 1985 were essentially raised on Columbine and 9/11 culture, and the idea that Earth is dying (and COVID to boot) has folks living without long term perspective, without hope, and little thought of investment, monetarily or financially.  Marriage, religion, family -  these things are investments. 

I've always wondered how this compared to the generation that lived through WWI, the great depression, the spanish flu, and then WWII, all in short order.  They suffered a lot but it still seems like they managed to have hope and dreams that they pursued, and to do the whole "family and kids thing" that was adulting back then.

Is it social media (and the sheer volume of information and suffering that kids are exposed to) that is making the difference or is it something else?  Our parenting?  I really don't know.

[rodheadlee]

1 hour ago, MustardSeed said:

The war was not threatening children personally here in the us.  Since columbine, schools are targets and shooter drills are our children’s normal

I don't know I grew up at the height of the Cold War. Air Raid Sirens would go off and we would Duck and Cover under our desk in case of nuclear attack. The president was assassinated, the president's brother was assassinated when he was a senator. We had major race riots with tanks running in the streets. Many people got drafted to go fight Vietnam. We all had to register for the draft.

Terrorism became a thing with the murders of the Israeli wrestling team at the Olympics and many Airline hijackings.

Edited October 23, 2023 by rodheadlee

[bluebell]

35 minutes ago, rodheadlee said:

I don't know I grew up at the height of the Cold War. Air Raid Sirens would go off and we would Duck and Cover under our desk in case of nuclear attack. The president was assassinated, the president's brother was assassinated when he was a senator. We had major race riots with tanks running in the streets. Many people got drafted to go fight Vietnam. We all had to register for the draft.

Terrorism became a thing with the murders of the Israeli wrestling team at the Olympics and many Airline hijackings.

I think children/teens/young adults of the 60s could make a good argument that their world in the U.S. was in just as much (maybe even more) chaos than ours is today.  Also, I had no idea but the 1960s and 1970s had quite a few school shootings, with the mid to late 70s being seen as the second-most violent period in U.S. schools.

https://www.k12academics.com/school-shootings/history-school-shootings-united-states