Tim Ballard

[Calm]

1 minute ago, Smiley McGee said:

When the church is strong in its wording it suggests a lack of due care? That’s dumb.

I see the Church as usually being overly cautious in their phrasing, draining emotion from the comments.  Totally understandable given they don’t want the style/tone of the message to overshadow the message itself.  This time my guess it was just cautious (my preference because it felt like it came from a person who really cared)….and look what happens.  So maybe their over caution is the best way to go.

[Tacenda]

2 hours ago, Smiley McGee said:

It’s interesting to observe the defense of Tim Ballard by faithful members, since this defense usually involves at least tacit disagreement with the church’s distancing of itself from Ballard. What’s interesting is that even hardened critics of the church understand that the church is dead serious about its public image, statements, and official comments. The likelihood that the church vetted this matter with intense care is very high. The likelihood that those defending Ballard have any better info than the church is probably very low.
 

If any defenders want to put their money where their mouth is and put money and odds on how this thing shakes out, I’m game. 

I think the reason the church was stronger on condemning a member is if it hurts their public persona. Because you'd think there would be a whole slew of members deserving of being condemned that weren't. I think the problem is that Elder Ballard and Tim Ballard were linked together very strongly and it didn't bode well for the church's reputation. 

[Smiley McGee]

This blog post is wild. All you servants of sin thinking Tim Ballard did something wrong better read up. 

Loyalty is a hell of a drug. 

[morgan.deane]

24 minutes ago, Smiley McGee said:

This blog post is wild. All you servants of sin thinking Tim Ballard did something wrong better read up. 

Loyalty is a hell of a drug. 

There is an irony in his Rian's post. He attacks the credibility of witnesses because they are anonymous, but they are anonymous because of attacks like his that quote scripture saying these accusers "are servants of sin" that must "suffer." Well no wonder they are anonymous! Once again, there are no specific rebuttals about specific items on Ballard's white board, high profile but low success tactics, entrapment that possibly fuels demand, sexual harassment, and so on. 

Right now I'm listening to radio free Mormon interview an eye witness that went on an OUR mission in 2015. Not a big fan of the source doing the interview, but this individual worked with the psychic, and describes how he waived money around tom sketchy individuals so those sketchy people would supply young children and get raided by Ballard. He felt like it was entrapment and created new demand. He also described how they would go to strip clubs to blend in and get information, but many of those on the team had so much fun they had to be reminded to "remember the mission." The witness is anonymous, but as he's discussing this he sounds credible with specific details that support existing allegations from Vice articles about the poor tactics of OUR. 

 

Edited September 23, 2023 by morgan.deane
typos

[Calm]

42 minutes ago, Smiley McGee said:

This blog post is wild. All you servants of sin thinking Tim Ballard did something wrong better read up. 

Loyalty is a hell of a drug. 

This does not surprise me from Rian Nelson. 
 

I love it when people start out with “Judge not, is my main message today” right after or before they say something really judgmental.

”Servants of sin” is not the least judgmental.  
 

“The world has been against Washington, Lincoln, JFK JR, Martin Luther King, Trump and many others as their righteous behaviors have brought the worst out in the minions of Satan.”

See, he’s not politically biased.  (I think the JR is in there by accident)

Edited September 23, 2023 by Calm

[Smiley McGee]

55 minutes ago, morgan.deane said:

many of those on the team had so much fun they had to be reminded to "remember the mission."

Haha, of course. “I better snort this cocaine and throw cash at this stripper…you know…for the mission.” 

Edited September 23, 2023 by Smiley McGee

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, Smiley McGee said:

This blog post is wild. All you servants of sin thinking Tim Ballard did something wrong better read up. 

Loyalty is a hell of a drug. 

I think the dude took it down.

[morgan.deane]

1 minute ago, Tacenda said:

I think the dude took it down.

The internet is awesome: https://web.archive.org/web/20230922042938/https://bookofmormonevidence.org/those-who-cry-transgression-do-it-because-they-are-the-servants-of-sin/

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, morgan.deane said:

There is an irony in his Rian's post. He attacks the credibility of witnesses because they are anonymous, but they are anonymous because of attacks like his that quote scripture saying these accusers "are servants of sin" that must "suffer." Well no wonder they are anonymous! Once again, there are no specific rebuttals about specific items on Ballard's white board, high profile but low success tactics, entrapment that possibly fuels demand, sexual harassment, and so on. 

Right now I'm listening to radio free Mormon interview an eye witness that went on an OUR mission in 2015. Not a big fan of the source doing the interview, but this individual worked with the psychic, and describes how he waived money around tom sketchy individuals so those sketchy people would supply young children and get raided by Ballard. He felt like it was entrapment and created new demand. He also described how they would go to strip clubs to blend in and get information, but many of those on the team had so much fun they had to be reminded to "remember the mission." The witness is anonymous, but as he's discussing this he sounds credible with specific details that support existing allegations from Vice articles about the poor tactics of OUR. 

 

I listened to this as well, I guess this stuff is addicting because I also listened to a talk radio show at 5:00 with Tim's wife and she's standing by him. And doesn't believe anything happened beyond what was needed for it to appear as if he had a wife. And she mentioned that he had to play the part and how dark everything was. And he had to do what he had to in order to catch these traffickers and rescue the children. But sadly, I think more were brought in to it. Especially those that are desperate for all that money that could sustain them for a year possibly. That was talked about in this RFM interview. 

Tim's wife also mentioned that he is quitting these raids and will spend more time with family, plus that he'd probably get identified with all the notoriety he has now. 

https://www.iheart.com/podcast/rod-arquette-show-20686511/

[Tacenda]

8 minutes ago, morgan.deane said:

The internet is awesome: https://web.archive.org/web/20230922042938/https://bookofmormonevidence.org/those-who-cry-transgression-do-it-because-they-are-the-servants-of-sin/

Thanks!

I hadn't realized what a big family he has. I give his wife a lot of credit to stay back and raise these children practically on her own. 

[The Nehor]

5 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I think the dude took it down.

Was it embarrassment at how badly written it was or realizing he was defending the indefensible?

Or both?

[Calm]

2 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Was it embarrassment at how badly written it was or realizing he was defending the indefensible?

Or both?

My guess is you will see fewer and fewer of the more prominent names in that community defending Ballard as the ones in the know quietly share what they now know with those who are still making noise. 

[smac97]

11 hours ago, Smiley McGee said:

This blog post is wild. All you servants of sin thinking Tim Ballard did something wrong better read up. 

Loyalty is a hell of a drug. 

Ooops... Error 404

Sorry, but the page you are looking for doesn't exist.

[SeekingUnderstanding]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

My guess is you will see fewer and fewer of the more prominent names in that community defending Ballard as the ones in the know quietly share what they now know with those who are still making noise. 

Kwaku (@withkwaku) took down his whole twitter account… 

[ksfisher]

https://www.ksl.com/article/50736388/investigative-reports-question-whether-ex-operation-underground-railroad-ceo-misled-donors

[smac97]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

My guess is you will see fewer and fewer of the more prominent names in that community defending Ballard as the ones in the know quietly share what they now know with those who are still making noise. 

I am reminded of the various (and surprisingly extensive) references to the "arm of flesh" in the Scriptures, and how should not do so:

Quote

Trust Not in the Arm of Flesh

• With him is an arm of flesh; but with us is the Lord, 2 Chr. 32:8.
• Some trust in chariots … but we will remember the name of the Lord, Ps. 20:7.
• I will not trust in my bow, Ps. 44:6.
• Put not your trust in princes, Ps. 146:3.
• lean not unto thine own understanding, Prov. 3:5.
• He that trusteth in his riches shall fall, Prov. 11:28.
• He that trusteth in his own heart is a fool, Prov. 28:26.
• they worship the work of their own hands, Isa. 2:8 (2 Ne. 12:8).
• Cease ye from man, whose breath is in his nostrils, Isa. 2:22 (2 Ne. 12:22).
• to trust in the shadow of Egypt, Isa. 30:2.
• they trust in vanity, Isa. 59:4.
• trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, Jer. 17:5.
• Trust ye not in a friend, Micah 7:5.
• walk not after the flesh, Rom. 8:1.
• have no confidence in the flesh, Philip. 3:3.
• I will not put my trust in the arm of flesh, 2 Ne. 4:34.
• Cursed is he that putteth his trust in man, 2 Ne. 28:31.
• trust no one to be your teacher … except … a man of God, Mosiah 23:14.
• neither trust in the arm of flesh, D&C 1:19.
• you should not have feared man more than God, D&C 3:7.
• yield to the persuasions of men no more, D&C 5:21.

See also Isa. 28:15; 31:1; 36:6; Jer. 7:8; Luke 6:26, 39; 2 Ne. 19:16; Mosiah 23:14; D&C 76:61.

I expect much of our leaders, and also of my fellow Latter-day Saints (and, of course, of myself), but I haven't tied my testimony to any person except the Savior.  At least, I hope I haven't.

"O Lord, I have trusted in thee, and I will trust in thee forever. I will not put my trust in the arm of flesh; for I know that cursed is he that putteth his trust in the arm of flesh. Yea, cursed is he that putteth his trust in man or maketh flesh his arm."  (2 Nephi 4:34).

I construe this verse, at least in part, not as saying we cannot trust each other at all, as such mistrust or absence of trust would preclude or impede our ability to work together as a community of faith, to sustain church leaders, to build Zion, and so on.  Rather, as our own Kevin Christensen put it: 

Quote

When we raise our hands in a sustaining vote, we are telling God that we will put up with whatever comes along, because we trust Him, not because we have absolute confidence and loyalty in the "arm of the flesh" that Jeremiah 17:5-12 famously puts in perspective.

Tim Ballard may have all sorts of admirable qualities, but he is not a leader whom I am obligated to sustain.  And even if he were, I would A) be entitled to have reservations and concerns about his conduct, and B) have no obligation to "sustain" his behavior not related to his ecclesiastical duties.

As a Latter-day Saint, I am happy to see my fellow Latter-day Saints go out and "be anxiously engaged in a good cause, and do many things of their own free will, and bring to pass much righteousness."  (D&C 58:27.) But if a Latter-day Saint messes up or does something seriously wrong, that does not affect my testimony of Jesus Christ.  I hope I never let the mistakes and sins of others adversely affect my faith, as I think doing so amounts to "put{ting} my trust in the arm of flesh."

I am presently pumping the brakes on assessing the evidence relative to Tim Ballard.  I want to see more evidence come out.

Thanks,

-Smac

[smac97]

5 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

https://www.ksl.com/article/50736388/investigative-reports-question-whether-ex-operation-underground-railroad-ceo-misled-donors

Interesting stuff.  The evidence appears to pertain to misrepresentations about OUR, but the article doesn't cite to evidence supporting allegations of sexual misconduct by Tim Ballard.

The article does include a statement by Tim calling the allegations of this misconduct "categorically false."

Thanks,

-Smac

[3DOP]

12 hours ago, Calm said:

This does not surprise me from Rian Nelson. 
 

I love it when people start out with “Judge not, is my main message today” right after or before they say something really judgmental.

”Servants of sin” is not the least judgmental.  
 

“The world has been against Washington, Lincoln, JFK JR, Martin Luther King, Trump and many others as their righteous behaviors have brought the worst out in the minions of Satan.”

See, he’s not politically biased.  (I think the JR is in there by accident)

Calm, hey!

Maybe the "JR" was intended? Could the intent have have been RFK JR?

[teddyaware]

Here’s a very recent (last night) 28 minute audio interview with Katherine Ballard, Tim Ballard’s wife. The interview was conducted by Rod Arquette of 105.9 KNRS Talk Radio in Salt Lake. Fast forward to the 5:00 minute mark to skip the blogger’s commentary.

 

[CA Steve]

42 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

https://www.ksl.com/article/50736388/investigative-reports-question-whether-ex-operation-underground-railroad-ceo-misled-donors

Clearly this is a politically motivated hack job by a liberal news organization out to get the Church and Ballard.

[Tacenda]

2 hours ago, teddyaware said:

Here’s a very recent (last night) 28 minute audio interview with Katherine Ballard, Tim Ballard’s wife. The interview was conducted by Rod Arquette of 105.9 KNRS Talk Radio in Salt Lake. Fast forward to the 5:00 minute mark to skip the blogger’s commentary.

 

Thanks, the original video had such long advertisements!

[teddyaware]

A new wrinkle in the Tim Ballard story. If Greg Matson’s information is correct, it appears the sex abuse allegations stem from unexpected and upsetting occurrences that took place while Ballard and certain female assistants were “role playing” before real child sex traffickers; i. e. they doing dirty, seedy things in order to convince the real traffickers that Tim and his female assistants were themselves “legit” child sex traffickers. Matson also says things will get much clearer next week after the church releases an official statement on the matter.

Personally, I’m thinking it may be that successfully deceiving child sex traffickers necessarily involves some very dirty and unpleasant business. Could it be that Tim got carried away and unnecessarily crossed moral ‘lines in the sand’ during the some of the role playing? It appears likely we’re soon going to find out…

 

Edited September 23, 2023 by teddyaware

[Smiley McGee]

14 minutes ago, teddyaware said:

it may be that successfully deceiving child sex traffickers

It’s hasn’t been established that they were successful at anything except telling stories that brought in $$$. 

[Calm]

1 hour ago, teddyaware said:

appears the sex abuse allegations stem from unexpected and upsetting occurrences that took place while Ballard and certain female assistants were “role playing” before real child sex traffickers; i. e. they doing dirty, seedy things in order to convince the real traffickers that Tim and his female assistants were themselves “legit” child sex traffickers

Isn’t this what has been said all along?  That Ballard tried to persuade the women (7 employees and volunteers) to act as his wife and justified taking showers or getting in bed together as needed to convince the bad guys they were for real?  But why would they need to act like husband and wife?  Do most husbands go on sexcations or whatever they are called with their wives?  Seems like an unnecessary wrinkle to add.

[Tacenda]

22 minutes ago, Calm said:

Isn’t this what has been said all along?  That Ballard tried to persuade the women (7 employees and volunteers) to act as his wife and justified taking showers or getting in bed together as needed to convince the bad guys they were for real?  But why would they need to act like husband and wife?  Do most husbands go on sexcations or whatever they are called with their wives?  Seems like an unnecessary wrinkle to add.

Agree, the only possible excuse is what I thought Tim or someone else said that having the wife be around would make it so they wouldn't be expected to go right to the sex part but plan it ahead of time with the wife okaying it after her approval. Or I'm misremembering what was said possibly.